Date   

Re: "from Minsk and not a shtetl" ? belarus digest: August 04, 2002 #belarus

Mila Begun <mmbegun@...>
 

To echo Naomi Fatouros' comments, many emigres reported their origins in
various ways. The same way I might say I'm >from Florida, my grandfather
indicated on his application for citizenship that he was >from Siedlice.
I doubt that he ever lived in the town of Siedlice, but we do have
evidence of his living in the town of Radzyn in the Siedlice district.
Similarly, I would be more accurate in saying I am really >from Miami.

In my father's case, he reports that many people >from his rather unknown
small town of Talnoye, Ukraine, erroneously state that they're from
Uman, a much larger town nearby.

For whatever reasons our ancestors chose to designate their origins, we
must be careful in what we accept as absolutely true.
Mila Begun, in NYC (since emigrating >from Miami, FL)


Belarus SIG #Belarus Re: "from Minsk and not a shtetl" ? belarus digest: August 04, 2002 #belarus

Mila Begun <mmbegun@...>
 

To echo Naomi Fatouros' comments, many emigres reported their origins in
various ways. The same way I might say I'm >from Florida, my grandfather
indicated on his application for citizenship that he was >from Siedlice.
I doubt that he ever lived in the town of Siedlice, but we do have
evidence of his living in the town of Radzyn in the Siedlice district.
Similarly, I would be more accurate in saying I am really >from Miami.

In my father's case, he reports that many people >from his rather unknown
small town of Talnoye, Ukraine, erroneously state that they're from
Uman, a much larger town nearby.

For whatever reasons our ancestors chose to designate their origins, we
must be careful in what we accept as absolutely true.
Mila Begun, in NYC (since emigrating >from Miami, FL)


Berman-Minsk-Hamburg List #belarus

hat1946@...
 

Thank you one and all for your reply. My gggrandfather
never became a citizen he left Minsk at the age of
60yrs,(all documents show this age) and die a few
years later before he could file his papers all his
children did file for citizenship and since these doc.
are so early all they said are Russia. ) he was the
last of the family to imm. Family oral history states
that the family were wine merchants therefore since
any and all documents I have state Minsk or Russia and
the burial society they belonged to was a society were
all the members were >from Minsk I am assuming that he
came >from that city. Until I can find out more inf.
Thank you again for your advise. NAME Oh by the way
on the ship manfest his name was recorded as Elje
Bermann on the Hambury list his name is listed
correctly Elje (Eli)Berman.
Hattie Berman Murphy

Searching: Berman, Connors, Michaelson, Davidoff
(Davidow) Minsk


Belarus SIG #Belarus Berman-Minsk-Hamburg List #belarus

hat1946@...
 

Thank you one and all for your reply. My gggrandfather
never became a citizen he left Minsk at the age of
60yrs,(all documents show this age) and die a few
years later before he could file his papers all his
children did file for citizenship and since these doc.
are so early all they said are Russia. ) he was the
last of the family to imm. Family oral history states
that the family were wine merchants therefore since
any and all documents I have state Minsk or Russia and
the burial society they belonged to was a society were
all the members were >from Minsk I am assuming that he
came >from that city. Until I can find out more inf.
Thank you again for your advise. NAME Oh by the way
on the ship manfest his name was recorded as Elje
Bermann on the Hambury list his name is listed
correctly Elje (Eli)Berman.
Hattie Berman Murphy

Searching: Berman, Connors, Michaelson, Davidoff
(Davidow) Minsk


Re: Jews in Minsk #belarus

Barbara Epstein <bepstein@...>
 

Marlene Bishow writes, "Generally speaking, Jews were not allowed to
live in Minsk proper." Where did you find this information, and what
period are you referring to? By the early twentieth century, Jews
made up more than 50% of the population of Minsk. This was true of
other major cities in Belarus as well. Was there some earlier period
during which Jews were not allowed to live in Minsk, or in other
Belarussian cities? I would appreciate knowing of any book
(especially in English) in which this is discussed.

Incidentally, in connection with the discussion about people saying
they were >from cities when actually they were >from nearby shtetls:
my father often said that he was >from Bialystok. But when pressed
for details, he would say that he was born in Yanove, a small shtetl
near Bialystok.


Barbara Epstein
Berkeley, California


Belarus SIG #Belarus Re: Jews in Minsk #belarus

Barbara Epstein <bepstein@...>
 

Marlene Bishow writes, "Generally speaking, Jews were not allowed to
live in Minsk proper." Where did you find this information, and what
period are you referring to? By the early twentieth century, Jews
made up more than 50% of the population of Minsk. This was true of
other major cities in Belarus as well. Was there some earlier period
during which Jews were not allowed to live in Minsk, or in other
Belarussian cities? I would appreciate knowing of any book
(especially in English) in which this is discussed.

Incidentally, in connection with the discussion about people saying
they were >from cities when actually they were >from nearby shtetls:
my father often said that he was >from Bialystok. But when pressed
for details, he would say that he was born in Yanove, a small shtetl
near Bialystok.


Barbara Epstein
Berkeley, California


shtetl vs. city #belarus

Dov & Varda <yknow@...>
 

Natalie Fatouros writes: "As Sally Bruckheimer and many other Jewishgenners
have pointed out many
times, people had a tendency to say, for various reasons that they were from
a particular city rather than >from some small place nearby. Perhaps their
purporting to be >from a large city gave them some prestige. Or perhaps they
just didn't want to bother trying to spell out the name of their probably
obscure little shtetl to the ship's agents or some other official."

This has tripped me up on my own research. When I questioned my mother about
her maternal grandparents' place of origin, she tells me they were from
Vilna Guberniya. When I tell her this is a large area and not a shtetl,
comparable to a province, she doesn't seem to understand why this info isn't
enough. Even when I tell her that her father is also >from Vilna Guberniya
(he was >from Vasilishki), it doesn't seem to click. Her maternal
grandparents originally had the surname Sakutsky, and I can only assume that
at one point the family might have been in Skuodas, which is certainly not
in Vilna Gub. My best second guess is to look at a list of towns in Vilna
Gub, and see which ones aren't easy to pronounce!

Varda Epstein
Metzad
Israel


Belarus SIG #Belarus shtetl vs. city #belarus

Dov & Varda <yknow@...>
 

Natalie Fatouros writes: "As Sally Bruckheimer and many other Jewishgenners
have pointed out many
times, people had a tendency to say, for various reasons that they were from
a particular city rather than >from some small place nearby. Perhaps their
purporting to be >from a large city gave them some prestige. Or perhaps they
just didn't want to bother trying to spell out the name of their probably
obscure little shtetl to the ship's agents or some other official."

This has tripped me up on my own research. When I questioned my mother about
her maternal grandparents' place of origin, she tells me they were from
Vilna Guberniya. When I tell her this is a large area and not a shtetl,
comparable to a province, she doesn't seem to understand why this info isn't
enough. Even when I tell her that her father is also >from Vilna Guberniya
(he was >from Vasilishki), it doesn't seem to click. Her maternal
grandparents originally had the surname Sakutsky, and I can only assume that
at one point the family might have been in Skuodas, which is certainly not
in Vilna Gub. My best second guess is to look at a list of towns in Vilna
Gub, and see which ones aren't easy to pronounce!

Varda Epstein
Metzad
Israel


Re: Minsk City Jews ( belarus digest: August 05, 2002) #belarus

NFatouros@...
 

On August 5, 2002, Marlene Bishow (mlbishow@...) wrote in part:

<<Generally speaking, Jews
were not allowed to live in Minsk proper, but it was the capital of the
province (gubernia) and a place that everyone knew, so they said that was
where they were from.>>

I agree with Ms. Bishow that because Minsk was the capital of the province
and a place everyone knew, people said that was where they came from.

But contrary to what Ms. Bishow apparently believes, many Jews were allowed
to live and in fact did live in Minsk proper.

Jews began trickling into Minsk during the 15th century and during the 16th
they formed a large part of the city's population. In the 17th century,
Jews were granted privileges by the Polish grand duke Jan Kazimierz. During
the 19th century, Jews formed a majority of the city's population. They
supported many established Jewish educational and religious institutions and
many Minsk Jews were open to new maskhalic, labor, and Zionist undertakings.
In fact the city became one of the largest concentrations of Jews within the
Pale. A major Zionist conference was held in Minsk in 1902.

At:

http://www.jewishgen.org/databases/Belarus/Minskhomeowners.htm

there are Minsk Jewish homeowner lists, respectively dated 1889 and 1911.


I have noticed that many Jewishgenners labor under the misapprehension that
Jews were not permitted to live in major Russian cities. It is true that most
Jews were prohibited >from establishing residence, but quite a few successful
and/or educated Jews did live in cities, like Odessa, Kiev, St, Petersburg,
and even Moscow. As for "lesser" Jews, many managed to bribe their way into
staying in Russian/Ukrainian cities for some lengths of time as merchants,
traders, artisans, students, or servants.

Because during much of its history, Belarus was governed by Polish kings and
nobles, who often looked benevolently at Jews, even for only the monetary
advantages Jews provided them, Jewish life was not as onerous and restrictive
as it later became under Russian domination.

Of course, I do not mean to dispute that. as Ms. Bishow wrote, her
grandfather was born in Sverzhen while others in her family came >from
Smilovichi.


Naomi Fatouros (nee FELDMAN)
Bloomington, Indiana
NFatouros@...
Researching: BELKOWSKY and BIELKOWSKY, Odessa and Berdichev;ROTHSTEIN,
Kremenchug; FELDMAN, Pinsk; SCHUTZ, RETTIG, WAHL, Shcherets; LEVY, Mulhouse;
SAS or SASS,Podwolochisk; RAPOPORT, Tarnopol, Korostyshev; BEHAM, Salok and
Kharkov; WOLPIANSKY, Ostryna.


Belarus SIG #Belarus Re: Minsk City Jews ( belarus digest: August 05, 2002) #belarus

NFatouros@...
 

On August 5, 2002, Marlene Bishow (mlbishow@...) wrote in part:

<<Generally speaking, Jews
were not allowed to live in Minsk proper, but it was the capital of the
province (gubernia) and a place that everyone knew, so they said that was
where they were from.>>

I agree with Ms. Bishow that because Minsk was the capital of the province
and a place everyone knew, people said that was where they came from.

But contrary to what Ms. Bishow apparently believes, many Jews were allowed
to live and in fact did live in Minsk proper.

Jews began trickling into Minsk during the 15th century and during the 16th
they formed a large part of the city's population. In the 17th century,
Jews were granted privileges by the Polish grand duke Jan Kazimierz. During
the 19th century, Jews formed a majority of the city's population. They
supported many established Jewish educational and religious institutions and
many Minsk Jews were open to new maskhalic, labor, and Zionist undertakings.
In fact the city became one of the largest concentrations of Jews within the
Pale. A major Zionist conference was held in Minsk in 1902.

At:

http://www.jewishgen.org/databases/Belarus/Minskhomeowners.htm

there are Minsk Jewish homeowner lists, respectively dated 1889 and 1911.


I have noticed that many Jewishgenners labor under the misapprehension that
Jews were not permitted to live in major Russian cities. It is true that most
Jews were prohibited >from establishing residence, but quite a few successful
and/or educated Jews did live in cities, like Odessa, Kiev, St, Petersburg,
and even Moscow. As for "lesser" Jews, many managed to bribe their way into
staying in Russian/Ukrainian cities for some lengths of time as merchants,
traders, artisans, students, or servants.

Because during much of its history, Belarus was governed by Polish kings and
nobles, who often looked benevolently at Jews, even for only the monetary
advantages Jews provided them, Jewish life was not as onerous and restrictive
as it later became under Russian domination.

Of course, I do not mean to dispute that. as Ms. Bishow wrote, her
grandfather was born in Sverzhen while others in her family came >from
Smilovichi.


Naomi Fatouros (nee FELDMAN)
Bloomington, Indiana
NFatouros@...
Researching: BELKOWSKY and BIELKOWSKY, Odessa and Berdichev;ROTHSTEIN,
Kremenchug; FELDMAN, Pinsk; SCHUTZ, RETTIG, WAHL, Shcherets; LEVY, Mulhouse;
SAS or SASS,Podwolochisk; RAPOPORT, Tarnopol, Korostyshev; BEHAM, Salok and
Kharkov; WOLPIANSKY, Ostryna.


Sidney Hyman aged 14 months - London UK #unitedkingdom

Rita Radivan <ritarad@...>
 

Can anyone recognise this photograph of Sidney Hyman aged 14 months taken at
The "Dalston Studio" Dalston Lane.N. London UK

Can anyone date the photograph?

It is posted on View Mate VM1659
To view: http://www.jewishgen.org/viewmate/ALL/source

Please reply privately

Thank you

Rita Radivan
Manchester UK ritatrad@...
MIKOCHINSKY/COHEN - Bialystok & Manchester UK
POLLOCK - Jacobstat, Latvia & Manchester UK
ALTMAN - Warsaw/Czestokova & London UK
HYMAN - ? & London UK


JCR-UK SIG #UnitedKingdom Sidney Hyman aged 14 months - London UK #unitedkingdom

Rita Radivan <ritarad@...>
 

Can anyone recognise this photograph of Sidney Hyman aged 14 months taken at
The "Dalston Studio" Dalston Lane.N. London UK

Can anyone date the photograph?

It is posted on View Mate VM1659
To view: http://www.jewishgen.org/viewmate/ALL/source

Please reply privately

Thank you

Rita Radivan
Manchester UK ritatrad@...
MIKOCHINSKY/COHEN - Bialystok & Manchester UK
POLLOCK - Jacobstat, Latvia & Manchester UK
ALTMAN - Warsaw/Czestokova & London UK
HYMAN - ? & London UK


Looking for details on Katie WRESCHNER b. 1894 Whitechapel UK #general

Wreschner, Jonathan <jonathan.wreschner@...>
 

Hello,

Just for fun, I tried the FreeBMD site http://freebmd.rootsweb.com/
with my surname and found a Katie WRESCHNER born in Whitechapel in Dec
1894. She may be a first cousin once removed of mine, >from a part of the
family with which no contact has
been maintained for about 110 years!!

How do I find details about her parents, siblings and
descendants? I did want to try the UK Census of 1901, but the site is
still unavailable.

Thanks,

Jonathan WRESCHNER
Jerusalem

Researching WRESCHNER (>from Poznan district), ZERNIK (anywhere)


Sidney Hyman aged 14 months - London UK #general

Rita Radivan <ritarad@...>
 

Can anyone recognise this photograph of Sidney HYMAN aged 14 months taken
at The "Dalston Studio" Dalston Lane.N. London UK

Can anyone date the photograph?

It is posted on View Mate VM1659
To view: http://www.jewishgen.org/viewmate/ALL/source/vm1659.html

Please reply privately

Thank you

Rita Radivan
Manchester UK ritatrad@...
MIKOCHINSKY/COHEN - Bialystok & Manchester UK
POLLOCK - Jacobstat, Latvia & Manchester UK
ALTMAN - Warsaw/Czestokova & London UK
HYMAN - ? & London UK


JewishGen Discussion Group #JewishGen Looking for details on Katie WRESCHNER b. 1894 Whitechapel UK #general

Wreschner, Jonathan <jonathan.wreschner@...>
 

Hello,

Just for fun, I tried the FreeBMD site http://freebmd.rootsweb.com/
with my surname and found a Katie WRESCHNER born in Whitechapel in Dec
1894. She may be a first cousin once removed of mine, >from a part of the
family with which no contact has
been maintained for about 110 years!!

How do I find details about her parents, siblings and
descendants? I did want to try the UK Census of 1901, but the site is
still unavailable.

Thanks,

Jonathan WRESCHNER
Jerusalem

Researching WRESCHNER (>from Poznan district), ZERNIK (anywhere)


JewishGen Discussion Group #JewishGen Sidney Hyman aged 14 months - London UK #general

Rita Radivan <ritarad@...>
 

Can anyone recognise this photograph of Sidney HYMAN aged 14 months taken
at The "Dalston Studio" Dalston Lane.N. London UK

Can anyone date the photograph?

It is posted on View Mate VM1659
To view: http://www.jewishgen.org/viewmate/ALL/source/vm1659.html

Please reply privately

Thank you

Rita Radivan
Manchester UK ritatrad@...
MIKOCHINSKY/COHEN - Bialystok & Manchester UK
POLLOCK - Jacobstat, Latvia & Manchester UK
ALTMAN - Warsaw/Czestokova & London UK
HYMAN - ? & London UK


Help needed: translations and information buried in old photos #general

Alex Bender <alemik@...>
 

Hello Jewishgenners,

Firstly, thanks to those of you who responded to my inquiry
regarding the names of photographers on old photos; I am indeed
convinced that "Chonovitz" and "Xonoburr" are the same person,
but in different languages.

I've decided to post pictures of the two old family photographs in
my possession. I'm hoping that some learned people will able to
translate some words for me, and perhaps answer some questions
based on the photos themselves.

Here is the first photograph, front and back:
http://www.angelfire.com/indie/jawbreaker/familyvilna.jpg
http://www.angelfire.com/indie/jawbreaker/familyvilnaback.jpg

This picture is likely >from the 1880s. My great-grandfather, Jacob
BENDER, is the one of the younger men in the picture; I do not know
if that was his name in the old country. He was >from Vilna, as it
says on the front. The back contains what appears to be Russian,
and I'd appreciate a translation of the words. I scanned it large
because there is some smaller text at the very bottom.

Here is the second picture:
http://www.angelfire.com/indie/jawbreaker/family1.jpg
http://www.angelfire.com/indie/jawbreaker/family1back.jpg

This pic is >from the 1870s or 1880s. My great-grandmother is one
of the younger girls. Her name in this country was Sarah LEVENSON
before marrying Jacob Bender, but I do not know if she was born
with that name. Again, I would greatly appreciate a translation of
what appears to be Polish on the back (the second link). As with the
other, it is scanned large because there is smaller text at the
bottom. I currently do not know my great-grandmother's country of
origin and i am hoping that the words on the back will reveal it.

Regarding both photos, I am curious whether or not the dress
reveals anything about the respective families. For instance, is it
possible to tell whether any of my ancestors were Hasids, or
whether or not they were wealthy? I don't have enough knowledge
of history and context to be able to make any inferences >from the
pictures.

Thanks again to anybody who is able to help me out.


JewishGen Discussion Group #JewishGen Help needed: translations and information buried in old photos #general

Alex Bender <alemik@...>
 

Hello Jewishgenners,

Firstly, thanks to those of you who responded to my inquiry
regarding the names of photographers on old photos; I am indeed
convinced that "Chonovitz" and "Xonoburr" are the same person,
but in different languages.

I've decided to post pictures of the two old family photographs in
my possession. I'm hoping that some learned people will able to
translate some words for me, and perhaps answer some questions
based on the photos themselves.

Here is the first photograph, front and back:
http://www.angelfire.com/indie/jawbreaker/familyvilna.jpg
http://www.angelfire.com/indie/jawbreaker/familyvilnaback.jpg

This picture is likely >from the 1880s. My great-grandfather, Jacob
BENDER, is the one of the younger men in the picture; I do not know
if that was his name in the old country. He was >from Vilna, as it
says on the front. The back contains what appears to be Russian,
and I'd appreciate a translation of the words. I scanned it large
because there is some smaller text at the very bottom.

Here is the second picture:
http://www.angelfire.com/indie/jawbreaker/family1.jpg
http://www.angelfire.com/indie/jawbreaker/family1back.jpg

This pic is >from the 1870s or 1880s. My great-grandmother is one
of the younger girls. Her name in this country was Sarah LEVENSON
before marrying Jacob Bender, but I do not know if she was born
with that name. Again, I would greatly appreciate a translation of
what appears to be Polish on the back (the second link). As with the
other, it is scanned large because there is smaller text at the
bottom. I currently do not know my great-grandmother's country of
origin and i am hoping that the words on the back will reveal it.

Regarding both photos, I am curious whether or not the dress
reveals anything about the respective families. For instance, is it
possible to tell whether any of my ancestors were Hasids, or
whether or not they were wealthy? I don't have enough knowledge
of history and context to be able to make any inferences >from the
pictures.

Thanks again to anybody who is able to help me out.


Orbach- Gishen Search in Australia #southafrica

Allen & Dinah Katz <aldikat@...>
 

Looking for ORBACH and GISHEN in Melbourne, Australia: Malla nee GISHEN
married Someone ORBACH. Malla (Malka) was the daughter of Beryl(Dov)-Hershel
and Reizel GISHEN, and sister to Baruch and Moshe, who all perished in the
Shoah.
Can anyone help?
Allen Katz
Raanana Israel


FEINBERG #southafrica

Lehmkuhl <rsa2can@...>
 

Hi List members
Anyone researching the FEINBERG family that lived in the Ermelo - Bethal
areas?

______________________________________
Anne Lehmkuhl=A0 http://www.rupert.net/~lkool/