Date   

Re: Whitier Inn-NYC 1930s. More info on Sarah and grandson Tom #general

Barbara Ellman
 

Yoni,
 
From the book Sea Gate Remembered: New York City's First Gated Community
By Arnold Rosen
image.png
Found by Googling!

--
Barbara Ellman
Secaucus NJ USA
HASSMAN, SONENTHAL, DAUERMAN, LUCHS - Drohobycz, Ukraine
HIRSCHHORN, GOLDSTEIN, BUCHWALD - Dolyna, Ukraine
ELLMAN, COIRA, MAIDMAN - Minkovtsy, Ukraine
KAGLE, FASS - Ulanow, Poland


Re: "His name was changed at Ellis Island" #names

Roger Lustig
 

Yale Zussman writes:

"Unless there is an actual proof that involuntary name-changes weren't
possible, you cannot reject the name-change narratives out of hand. 
Given the number of potential cases, around 37 million, and what is
known about the operation of the immigration stations (it's discussed in
the Congressional Record), the notion that involuntary name-changes were
impossible because the immigration process operated flawlessly is simply
absurd."

The actual proof is in the facts:

--that no documentary evidence of a name-change by an immigration
official has been found;

--that there is no evidence that a procedure existed for doing such a
thing;

--that no form on which a name-change would be entered has been known to
exist;

--that no regulation regarding name-changes at the port of entry has
ever been found;

--that someone who purportedly received such treatment would either have
had to memorize the new name instantly or receive it written down in an
alphabet they might not even have been able to read;

--that there was no such thing as a database of people's names to which
such an event might be reported;

--and on and on.

For that matter, the first thing to keep in mind is that the immigration
officers didn't even write down the vast majority of the names of people
who passed by them. They compared the names on the passenger list to
those on the steamship tickets, made check-marks and the occasional
rubber-stamp, and that was generally it.

The immigration process did not operate flawlessly, but since we've
never found a way that an immigration officer *could* have changed a
name with any expectation that it would stick for more than 5 minutes,
how could a "flaw" lead to a name change? A flaw in what?

Oh, and the immigration officers spoke 40 languages in aggregate. They
were assigned to ships according to the languages expected to be found
among the passengers, and could in a pinch call on colleagues to help.

Roger Lustig

Princeton, NJ USA


Re: what is the meaning of given name #poland #names

Valentin Lupu
 

Nessiha (Hebrew) means "princess".
Shabbat Shalom,

Valentin Lupu
Israel


Sea Gate, Brooklyn #usa

Renee Steinig
 

Yonatan Ben-Ari <yonibenari@...> wrote:

<<Tom's mother and grandmother may have lived in the Sea Gate area and
Tom would visit his mother during the summers. Are Coney
Island and Sea Gate close to each other?>>

From Wikipedia:

<<Sea Gate is a private gated community at the far western end of
Coney Island at the southwestern tip of the New York City borough of
Brooklyn. Located on the portion of the Coney Island peninsula west of
West 37th Street, it contains mostly single-family homes, some
directly on Gravesend Bay.>>

Renee

Renee Stern Steinig
Dix Hills NY
genmaven@...


Re: "His name was changed at Ellis Island" #names

Jules Levin
 

On 6/26/2020 9:44 AM, JoAnne Goldberg wrote:
About "changing the spelling" -- the manifests I've seen have all been
written in English or German, in any case, using our Latin alphabet.
Whereas many of our ancestors would have written their names in Russian
or Yiddish, totally different alphabets. The name on the manifest might
have been an undecipherable scribble to them (assuming they were
literate at all)
Jews in the Pale of Settlement (Poland, Lithuania) and nearby areas
would have been at least as familiar with the Roman alphabet as with the
Cyrillic.  Very few Jews were completely monolingual in Yiddish.  Most
people, even many Russian serfs, could hock a chainik in more than one
language.  By the 1890's most Jews had at least a couple years school,
and both Cyrillic and Roman were taught in all grammar schools, and Jews
in Yeshiva picked up enough.   In the 19th Century the first 2 years of
school everywhere were better than 6 grades today.  Remember, Lincoln
had no more than a year and a half of school.  When you think of your
grandparents arriving in the US, don't think of the elderly people you
remember--think of the young bright eager to work and to learn people
they were.

Jules Levin







Also, there was a comment yesterday about names beginning with G or H.
The Russian (Cyrllic) alphabet has a guttural H, like the beginning of
Khrushchev, but a soft H is rendered with a G, hence, the Shakespearean
play Gamlet or Hirsch spelled as Girsh. I am guessing these names were
pronounced correctly, but written in the Russian alphabet with an
initial G, which of course looks nothing like an English/German G.

Curious if anyone has more information on these -- could be helpful in
understanding the name-change stories that so many of us have.
--
JoAnne Goldberg - Menlo Park, California; GEDmatch M131535
BLOCH, SEGAL, FRIDMAN, KAMINSKY, PLOTNIK/KIN -- LIthuania
GOLDSCHMIDT, HAMMERSCHLAG,HEILBRUNN, REIS(S), EDELMUTH, ROTHSCHILD,
SPEI(Y)ER -- Hesse, Germany
COHEN, KAMP, HARFF, FLECK, FRÖHLICH, HAUSMANN,  DANIEL  -- Rhineland,
Germany


Re: "His name was changed at Ellis Island" #names

Joe & Carolyn Hoelscher
 

My great grandfather left Vistinetz (Vistytis) via Hamburg, Germany for the USA in 1867 aboard the ship Bavaria.  The ship record says he was from Wystetten, Russisch Polen.  His name on board the ship was Reuben Lauchtenstein (family members have always said his last name was Lichtenstein), and every record I have been able to find in the USA has his last name as Jacobs.  I think he changed his last name to Jacobs because he apparently had a couple of brothers who had come to the USA already, as well as a cousin named Jacob Purvin.  I did not really know about these brothers who arrived before Reuben until I started researching the family.  The brothers who came before Reuben chose to change the name to Jacobs, maybe because of the cousin’s name, and Reuben followed suit.  But the reason for choosing Jacobs is not really known.  I had heard of Jacob Purvin before doing research, but I didn’t know anything about him.  So I guess people were changing their names on their own, probably forever!

 

Carolyn Hoelscher

San Antonio


Re: Whitier Inn-NYC 1930s. More info on Sarah and grandson Tom #general

Sherri Bobish
 


Yoni,

You can see a 1910 photo of The Whitier Inn at this link. The poster claims that Isaac Bashevis Singer spent time at The Whitier Inn.
https://www.flickr.com/photos/80454089@N00/5533313670

This site has a bit of history about Sea Gate.
https://www.worthpoint.com/worthopedia/brooklyn-sea-gate-whittier-inn-1809149938

A quote from: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sea_Gate,_Brooklyn
"Sea Gate is a private gated community at the far western end of Coney Island at the southwestern tip of the New York City borough of Brooklyn.[1] Located on the portion of the Coney Island peninsula west of West 37th Street"

Hope this helps,

Sherri Bobish
Princeton, NJ

Searching: RATOWSKY / CHAIMSON (Ariogala / Ragola, Lith.)
WALTZMAN / WALZMAN (Ustrzyki Dolne / Istryker, Pol.)
LEVY (Tyrawa Woloska, Pol.)
LEFFENFELD / LEFENFELD (Daliowa/ Posada Jasliska, Pol.)
BOJDA (Tarnobrzeg, Pol.)
SOKALSKY / SOLON FINGER(MAN) (Grodek, Bialystok, Pol.)
BOBISH / APPEL (Odessa)
 


Looking for descendants of Mates KONIGSBERG, KEHGSBERG, Sara VOGEL, Sara VISMAN #israel #poland

Baker Rosalie
 

My uncle, Mates KONIGSBERG was born in Tarnogrod, Poland 06/17/1902 to Shrage Fajwel and Meite 
He moved to Danzig, then Berlin, then Amsterdam, then Barsingerhorn in Holland.

Sara VOGEL was born in Cieszanow (Czeszenow, Ciechanow, Cheszanow,) Poland on March 4, 2011 to Mordekhai and Yeta.

On June 12, 1936, Mates KONIGSBERG married Sara VOGEL in Holland.

On August 3, 1936 they arrived in Palestine on the ship “Galil”

I am at a brick wall.  Except on the Yad Vashem website I found pages of testimony for Josef FOGEL from Cieszanow born 1905, Rachel WOGEL from Czeszenow born 1908 and Yitzkhak Dawid VOGEL from Ciechanow born 1914.

Yitzkhak Dawid and Josef were victims of the holocaust in the Netherlands.

 The Pages of Testimony were submitted by their sister, Sara VISMAN

Sara, born in 1911 fits right in with Josef, Rachel and Yitzkhak. My father did say that Mates died young. I think Sara Vogel Konigsberg married Mr. Visman after my uncle died. 

Any information on descendants of Mates KONIGSBERG, Sara VOGEL, Sara VISMAN would be greatly appreciated.  


Re: "His name was changed at Ellis Island" #names

C Chaykin
 

Dear Yale, It sounds most likely, given the paucity of documentary proof, that most of these stories originated out of embarrassment about having chosen another surname. Perhaps some wanted to hide the original name, due to its obvious origin (an undesirable" country of merely just foreign) or ethnicity. In any case the new surname was the preferred surname. Someone who preferred his/her original surname could have changed it back, so that was not the case.  And there it stands. 
Good luck in your search.


Re: What "notions" means? #general

C Chaykin
 

The term "notions" is used for sewing accessories like buttons, snaps, etc. Here's a link to a wiki. 


Photo ID request #translation

Stuart Kaufer
 

I am attaching a photo of what I believe to be my maternal grandmother's family.  She was Roza Friedman Stein came from Tarne-Mare Romania and died in 1937 in Chicago.   My own mother is now 101 and is unable to recognize anyone in the photo. She is the last person living who would be able to tell who the people were.   I believe one of them was my great Uncle David Friedman who came to visit my GM in Chicago and then returned to Europe and died in Auschwitz.   On the off chance that anyone on this list serve may recognize I am attaching and asking to let me know.   Thanks so much.


Re: "His name was changed at Ellis Island" #names

Jules Levin
 

I will answer Yale point by point:

On 6/26/2020 8:24 AM, YaleZuss via groups.jewishgen.org wrote:
I am fascinated by the assumption in many of these responses that I
haven't done my homework.  No-one, including in a flurry of personal
contacts, has mentioned an item that I hadn't seen already in my
study.  I read each of them and then back-checked it; how many of you
who cite these items have done so?
Jules, have you ever actually bothered to look at the data or think
about your claims? Do you know anyone who can speak 40 languages? 
Does any of them work for the amount paid the immigration inspectors?
Has it ever occurred to you that there might be errors in government
documents?
This second paragraph is ironic coming after your affirmation of your
careful reading.  I think almost everyone understood that I did not say
there was someone there who spoke 40 languages.  An averagely careful
reader understood correctly that among the many immigration inspectors
over 40 languages were spoken.  Someone in this discussion who has also
studied the issue claims many more than 40.  This is not surprising,
since I think that America was a more polyglot country in the 19th
Century than now--but this is a different issue.

I also have the impression that one of the beliefs underlying the "meme"
is a middle-class urban Jewish attitude vis-a-vis the presumed
native-born Wasps from the sticks who they assume were the officials
engaged in silly frivolous name changes.  Consider this as a factor.

Another factor I hope you will explore is /cui bono/, which Russians
especially like (komy pol'za)--who benefits?  Why did these frazzled
hungry (to go home to dine) officials stand to gain by arbitrarily
changing names?  And what did the second generation immigrants gain by
telling their 3rd gen children "it was changed at Ellis Island..."   I
think the 2nd question is easier to answer.  It was embarrassing to tell
their children that their grandparents wanted to seem less "Jewish",
more American.  Clearly the officials had nothing to gain by deviating
from procedures.

I started my study looking for the reasoning behind the meme, not to
reject it, but as one claim after another proved to be wrong, based on
faulty logic, or on methodological errors, I started wondering how it
came about.  Then I heard from the USCIS Historians' Office that they
didn't know where the meme came from.  I'm still working on that.

Unless there is an actual proof that involuntary name-changes weren't
possible, you cannot reject the name-change narratives out of hand. 
Given the number of potential cases, around 37 million, and what is
known about the operation of the immigration stations (it's discussed
in the Congressional Record), the notion that involuntary name-changes
were impossible because the immigration process operated flawlessly is
simply absurd.
The immigration process did not have to operate flawlessly to guard
against involuntary name changing.  This is a red herring. Are migrants
today having their names changed by gov officials when they enter the
country?  Of course not, but no one would claim the current system
operates flawlessly.

Let me propose a way of teasing out factors within the Jewish community
that might explain what was going on--why some Horowitzes changed the
name, and others did not.  {sidebar: Yiddish joke I heard from my
father--remember Sadie Horowitz from the old neighborhood.  When she
came to America she changed her name.  In the old country it was
Kurvawitz.}  Here's my idea: find 100 families with no name change, and
100 that did.  Makr economic, social, and religious tradition profiles
on each 3 or 4 generational family.  I predict that the name-changers
would be more socially mobile, less religious, more exogamous, etc.,
etc. None of these differences could have influenced immigration officials.

Good luck with your research,

Jules Levin


--Yale Zussman


Re: "His name was changed at Ellis Island" #names

Bob Roudman
 

I may also be naive to think that the immigrant would not be asked to
pronounce their names if the clerk/officer could not read it. These
folks were not mute.


Re: "His name was changed at Ellis Island" #names

JoAnne Goldberg
 

About "changing the spelling" -- the manifests I've seen have all been
written in English or German, in any case, using our Latin alphabet.
Whereas many of our ancestors would have written their names in Russian
or Yiddish, totally different alphabets. The name on the manifest might
have been an undecipherable scribble to them (assuming they were
literate at all)

Also, there was a comment yesterday about names beginning with G or H.
The Russian (Cyrllic) alphabet has a guttural H, like the beginning of
Khrushchev, but a soft H is rendered with a G, hence, the Shakespearean
play Gamlet or Hirsch spelled as Girsh. I am guessing these names were
pronounced correctly, but written in the Russian alphabet with an
initial G, which of course looks nothing like an English/German G.

Curious if anyone has more information on these -- could be helpful in
understanding the name-change stories that so many of us have.
--
JoAnne Goldberg - Menlo Park, California; GEDmatch M131535
BLOCH, SEGAL, FRIDMAN, KAMINSKY, PLOTNIK/KIN -- LIthuania
GOLDSCHMIDT, HAMMERSCHLAG,HEILBRUNN, REIS(S), EDELMUTH, ROTHSCHILD, SPEI(Y)ER -- Hesse, Germany
COHEN, KAMP, HARFF, FLECK, FRÖHLICH, HAUSMANN,  DANIEL  -- Rhineland, Germany

 


Re: "His name was changed at Ellis Island" #names

Hank Lobbenberg
 

JoAnne:
Your Gedmatch cannot be M131535 as indicated in Jewish Gen. I have a number of names in your listing.
Can you give me the Ancestry or Family Tree Maker ID
Henry Lobbenberg
Toronto, ON
Gedcom: 9842111 


Re: "His name was changed at Ellis Island" #names

Barbara Mannlein <bsmannlein@...>
 

Have you ever known a government employee who didn’t generate paper?   

There is only 1 file backing up (sort of) the “name was changed at Ellis Island claim”  and that was of a woman traveling as a man.  The manifest was corrected  But she continued to use the male name after being admitted to the US.  If names were changed at ports of entry, wouldn’t you expect to see paper evidence?

The US gov’t also denies the story.  (see last item on list below.)


Names were NEVER changed at Ellis Island. Passenger manifests were created from the ticket registers containing the names used when tickets were bought. Names were checked off as passengers boarded. The departure manifest was then given to the Ellis Island officials who used it to create the arrival manifests copying **exactly** what was on the departure manifest.

Each passenger WORE A TAG giving his ship's name, manifest page # and line # (and hence his name). All the clerks did was to check the name off a manifest. The clerks did not write anything down at Ellis, they simply checked off the manifest.

It wasn't like a bus full of strangers arrived and officials asked what their name was. There was already a paper trail. EI clerks spoke 2-3 languages each. There was no reason to ask questions in English.

As for w or v, in Polish there is no "v":  "w" is pronounced "V".   My mom's maiden name was Weiser; pronounced Veiser in Polish.  Halpern is spelled Galpern in  Russian but pronounced Halpern.

As another researcher pointed out a few years ago, "if the Starbucks barista spells your name wrong on the cup, they aren't  forcing a "name change" on you, since there is no mechanism of enforcement."


1. "Ellis Island Isn’t to Blame for Your Family’s Name Change"

2. "They Changed Our Name at Ellis Island"

     https://ancestralfindings.com/changed-name-ellis-island/


3.  "The Myth of Ellis Island and Other Tales of Origin"

4. "American Names / Declaring Independence"
      by Marian Smith, Immigration & Nationalization Svc Historian

5. "Why Your Family Name Was Not Changed at Ellis Island…. "

 6.  "Why Your Family Name Was Not Changed at Ellis Island"

      


 7. "The Ellis Island Name Change Myth"

 8.  "Jewish Americans changed their names, but not at Ellis Island"

 9. "Just How Were Passenger Manifests Created?"      (2009)
    [senior INS archivist Marion Smith, British genealogists Saul Issrof and Nick Evans.] 

 

10. "The “Ellis Island changed our name” myth" 

 11.   From the US GOVT:   (2013)

     “Immigrant Name Changes”



Barbara Mannlein
Tucson, AZ


On Jun 26, 2020, at 8:24 AM, YaleZuss via groups.jewishgen.org <YaleZuss=aol.com@...> wrote:

I am fascinated by the assumption in many of these responses that I haven't done my homework.  No-one, including in a flurry of personal contacts, has mentioned an item that I hadn't seen already in my study.  I read each of them and then back-checked it; how many of you who cite these items have done so?
 
Jules, have you ever actually bothered to look at the data or think about your claims?  Do you know anyone who can speak 40 languages?  Does any of them work for the amount paid the immigration inspectors?  Has it ever occurred to you that there might be errors in government documents?
 
I started my study looking for the reasoning behind the meme, not to reject it, but as one claim after another proved to be wrong, based on faulty logic, or on methodological errors, I started wondering how it came about.  Then I heard from the USCIS Historians' Office that they didn't know where the meme came from.  I'm still working on that.  

Unless there is an actual proof that involuntary name-changes weren't possible, you cannot reject the name-change narratives out of hand.  Given the number of potential cases, around 37 million, and what is known about the operation of the immigration stations (it's discussed in the Congressional Record), the notion that involuntary name-changes were impossible because the immigration process operated flawlessly is simply absurd.
 
--Yale Zussman 
_._,_._,_


Changed his name at Ellis island #general #usa

EarthLink
 

Keep in mind that Jewish folks in Eastern Europe got last names fairly late. many families choose different last names and different and different spellings. even brothers had different last names. Also, if they did not have papers( my grandfather) and took names from others, they might change back when they got to America.
 
Saralea Altman
Searching: Altman, Frohlich, Lecker


Re: Logistics of emigration from Pale of Settlement to America #lithuania #poland

jbonline1111@...
 

Family lore says that my maternal grandfather and his uncle escaped Czarist Russia (now Belarus) hidden in a hay wagon in 1905.  On the other hand, my great-grandfather often worked in NYC, so it is difficult to know what to think.  
--
Barbara Sloan
Conway, SC


Re: "His name was changed at Ellis Island #usa #general

jbonline1111@...
 

Families often changed their names or at least the spellings. I found this on both sides of my mother's family.  Zlates became Slatas and Sanktin became Sancton.  The Zlates change came some time after 1925, given its use on my mother's birth certificate. I am not certain when Sancton was changed.
--
Barbara Sloan
Conway, SC


Re: Searching KESSLER, Brooklyn, NY #usa

Erica Fox Zabusky
 

Sandi,
I know the Kessler family well. Stuart was my father's best friend growing up in Brooklyn in the '30s-40s; they attended Brooklyn Tech together. Sadly, Stuart died a year or two ago, but I am still in touch with his wife. I am happy to contact her to connect you. She may know about Stuart's family. They have 3 sons, but I'm not sure how involved they are with their relatives.

All the best,

Erica Fox Zabusky
ZABUSKI - Czestochowa, Sochaczew
FRYDMANN - Sochaczew
BRAUN, PANKOWSKI - Czestochowa
FIKSEL, RUDMAN - Izaslav, Slavuta, Odessa, Kharkov
POLISZUK, GOLDMAN - Izaslav, Slavuta