Re: How were Hungary censuses conducted? #hungary

Dan Rottenberg

Thanks to the feedback above (especially from Phil Karlin), I believe I’ve resolved the original mystery. It had nothing to do with the timing of the census in 1848 or any other year. To my mind, this process epitomizes the best virtues of the JewishGen Discussion Group: informed fellow genealogists putting our heads together online to help each other solve mysteries.

For those who are interested, I’ve concluded that there were two different Sali Kleins in the 1848 Kellemes census after all. The widow Sallie Klein Tannenbaum (born Lenarto 1817) was the aunt of Sali Klein Jolesz (born Frics 1829). Sallie Tannenbaum presumably died prior to the 1857 census, at which time Sali Jolesz adopted her aunt Sallie Tannenbaum’s two youngest sons, born 1840 and 1846. This would explain how a woman born in 1829 could be listed as mother of a son born in 1840— she was his adoptive mother, not his birth mother.

My one remaining mystery in the 1848 census is the presence in Sali Tannebaum’s household of “mother (?) Betti Grinfeld, 62, born Szanok, Poland, widow living with her children.” I surmise that this woman is Sali’s mother-in-law— the mother of Sali’s late husband Joseph Tannenbaum— presumably having remarried to someone named Grinfeld. But that’s merely speculation.  
Dan Rottenberg
Philadelphia PSA

Re: Locating the papers of a New Jersey senator and New York congressman #usa

Lewis, Megan

Official records would be at the National Archives and Records Administration at College Park. You can contact the reference desk for Textual Reference (RDT2) at archives2reference@....

Personal papers are often donated to university archives or state/local historical societies.  ArchiveGrid ( searches multiple archive catalogs and is particularly good for university archives.

Megan Lewis
reference librarian, U.S. Holocaust Memorial Museum

Looking for relatives of Abe Gershone from Uladovka #usa


I am trying to find information about my maternal grandfather, Abe Gershone (Gershkov?).  He was born in 1889 and was from Uladovka.  He came to the US through Baltimore and settled in Minnepolis, MN.
We know about his life in Minneapolis, and that his father's name was Samuel, but nothing else about his parents or his siblings.  His alien registration states he has 2 brothers who served in the Russian Army.
His wife was Dora/Devorah Fishman, also from Uladovka. He had a very close relationship withthe Fishman family.  His papers state he was coming to Minneapolis to be with Jacob Saxton, who is related to the Fishman family.  We have an extensive Fishman famaily tree, but would like to be able to fill out Abe's family tree.
I welcome any help or information.  Thanks.
- Devorah Koval

Locating the papers of a New Jersey senator and New York congressman #usa

Anna Olswanger

I am hoping that someone can advise me how to research the following.

I am trying to find the name of a Soviet Jewish family who was able to leave the Soviet Union in 1965 and go to Israel, seven years before the Brezhnev-Kosygin government granted the first exit visas to Soviet Jews. I have just about exhausted my Israel resources, so now I’m trying to find the family’s name in the papers of Congressmen James Howard of New Jersey and Emanuel Celler of New York, and Senator Clifford Chase of New Jersey, who helped the family get out. This was in 1965-1966, some time after the summer of 1965, when a New Jersey rabbi became aware of the family's plight. I tried to locate the information in Senator Howard’s papers at Rutgers University, but without being able to search onsite, I had to rely on the staff and they said they couldn’t find anything. I’m hoping that Congressman Celler and Senator’s Chase’s papers might be archived and accessible somewhere.

Does anyone have experience locating and searching the papers of New Jersey senators or New York congressmen?

If so, please contact me at:


Thanks for any advice.

Anna Olswanger

Anna Olswanger | Literary Agent | Olswanger Literary LLC
16-60 Chandler Drive | Fair Lawn, NJ | 07410-2715
t: 201-791-4699 | w: | twitter: @AnnaOlswanger

Re: Need Help With DNA Puzzle #dna

Adam Turner

Nope - this isn't how population genetics and natural selection work in real life on the timescales we're talking about.

  • I oversimplified for the sake of having an illustrative example in my previous post and threw everything under the banner of "SNPs", but most of the DNA we inherited from Neanderthal populations is non-coding. We have huge amounts of non-coding DNA in our genomes, and this DNA often persists in our genomes pretty much forever unless there is some unusually compelling selective pressure interacting with whatever it does (and, being non-coding, it often doesn't do much, and what it does do is often pretty subtle). Included among our non-coding regions are transposable elements that have been littering our genomes for millions of years. Our genomes do not do rapid evolutionary cleanup on these regions; they just...stick around, for the most part, as long as they don't end up causing some sort of deleterious mutation. My larger point here is that human evolution is much less tidy than the model your understanding appears to be based on.
Unless, that is, there was some strong survival advantage for the lucky children who got it.
  • If the principle "new DNA always rapidly disappears unless it confers significantly increased fitness" were really inexorably true, then we would never see recessive-gene-linked diseases persist in populations - these mutations would rapidly disappear. In reality, they stick around for quite a long time in populations, and so do the parts of our genomes that stem from Neanderthals. 
  • The science on what, exactly, is in Neanderthal DNA is still in its infancy, but many researchers are increasingly convinced that at least some Neanderthal DNA did indeed confer valuable adaptations on populations that ended up with it (for instance, on immune system function).
  • Exactly what happened over time to the Neanderthal-derived parts of our genomes is also a subject of much recent debate among scientists. But there is at least one empirical study in the last five years that suggests that the initial introgression of Neanderthal DNA faced a pretty rapid initial purge, but then largely stabilized. (The article reviewing this study doesn't do a deep dive on why this would have happened this way, but the model makes at least some intuitive sense to me: maybe the initial selective purge was of various genes that coded for traits that were obviously deleterious for Homo sapiens sapiens for one reason or another. After those disappeared, there was still a significant amount left that was either beneficial or innocuous, and consequently those bits of the Neanderthal genome faced little to no selective pressure. So those mostly stuck around in the population.)
And there is no reason to believe that when the last Neanderthal went extinct the number of homo sapiens/Neanderthal hybrids was large compared to the number of pure homo sapiens.
Far from obviously true when limited to the populations we are talking about: the relative number of Neanderthals vis-a-vis the initial populations of early European modern humans who they interacted with. 

Estimating the size of Neanderthal and EEMH populations appears to be a tricky business. But some quick checking suggests that the total number of individuals in each might have been roughly comparable, at least at some times. I found one figure suggesting ~3000 Neanderthals about ~55000 years ago and another listing an average (with a wide upper/lower bound) of 4400 EEMH around 40000 to 30000 years ago.

That suggests to me that it's not absurd on its face to think that at the time EEMH and Neanderthal populations were intermingling, the relative size of each population could well have been similar enough, and small enough, for Neanderthal DNA to plausibly enter into, and then spread throughout, the EEMH population within a few dozen generations of each interbreeding event. Exponential growth means that there wouldn't have had to be all that many interbreeding events for this to happen!
 Many clades of archaic homo sapiens DNA went extinct and can not be found in living homo sapiens.
That may well be. It's not impossible for there to be evolutionary dead ends - a population that diverged from our ancestors, became isolated to some degree and formed its own genetically distinct branch, and then died out. In this case, two populations that diverged genetically from a common ancestor (probably H. Heidelbergensis) intermingled again, their descendants survived to eventually develop agriculture, bronze tools, third-wave ska, and the pet rock, and we retain the DNA of both to varying degrees. And?

Adam Turner

Re: Marriage date of 29 February 1887! #poland #records

C.W. Kirschbaum

We came upon the same problem in civil records from Mogilev/Belarus. The birthday of a family member was given as 29 February 1881. What immediately strikes us as an impossibility today didn't seem to bother some clerks back then. I understand that the Julian calendar applies the same leap day rule as the Gregorian calendar, so the ambiguous calendar date cannot be explained that way. We decided to attribute it to clerical error and/or sloppiness.
Claudia Witte-Kirschbaum
KIRSCHBAUM (Parysow, Rozan, Lodz, Nizhny Novgorod)
DUMTSCHIN (Mogilev, Nizhny Novgorod)
LANDAU (Brzesko)
FRISCH (Bochnia)

Invitation to Zoom meeting: " Here Comes the 1950 U.S. Census! What To Expect." with Joel Weintraub #events #usa

Ben Kempner

The Jewish Genealogy Society of Southern Nevada (JGSSN) invites you to a Zoom meeting at 1:00 p.m. (Pacific Daylight Time) on Sunday, July 18: "Here Comes the 1950 U.S. Census! What To Expect" with Joel Weintraub.

 To request a Zoom link, please complete this short form, which can also be found on our Meetings webpage.

 Members of JGSSN can attend for free.  Non-members can either pay $5.00 on the Donate webpage.   Or you can pay $20 for a subscription to the 2021 series of outstanding speakers (see below).  More details can be found on our Meetings page.  To become a member and sign up for the 2021 series, go to the Membership page.

Session Description:

The U.S. 1950 census will become public on April 1, 2022. Joel will prepare us for its debut by covering what is a census, who uses the census, census caveats, the 1940 census, how the 1950 census was taken, training of enumerators, enumerator instruction book, census sampling, 1950 schedule, 1950 Housing Schedule, census questions, post enumeration codes, 1950 undercount, and a summary of the results. Joel will conclude with a short discussion on his and Steve Morse’s 1950 census locational tools, online right now at the website.  Those 1950 utilities took 8 years to produce with the help of under 80 volunteers, involve 230,000 or so searchable 1950 ED definitions with about 80,000 more small community names added, and street indexes for over 2,400 1950 urban areas that correlate with 1950 census district numbers. 

About Joel Weintraub:

Joel Weintraub, PhD, a New Yorker by birth, is an emeritus Biology Professor at California State University, Fullerton. He became interested in genealogy over 20 years ago, and volunteered for 9 years at the National Archives and Records Administration in southern California. Joel has produced locational tools for the 1900 through 1950 federal censuses, and the New York State censuses for NYC (1905, 1915, 1925) for the Steve Morse "One-Step" website.  Joel has published articles on the U.S. census and the 72-year rule, the name change belief at Ellis Island, finding difficult passenger records at Ellis Island, and searching census records (and the geography) of NYC.

JGSSN 2021 Lecture Series:

 Become a member for $20 and attend any or all of the upcoming lectures.


Ben Kempner

Vice President, JGSSN

Re: This week's featured collections in Miriam Weiner's new Surname Database at the Routes to Roots Foundation website ( include documents from the towns of: Stanislawow & Stanislawow District (now Ivano-Frankivsk, Ukraine) and Lublin, Poland. #announcements #poland #ukraine


My father's family (Dimant) came from Stanislawow.  I would be interested in any and all information about family members, the names of which follow.

Dimant, Hermann, Frimmet, Hersch Wolf
Weissberg, Max (Meir), Selig, Adolph, Mirl Rifke, Frydryka, Jozef Karol, Klara and Wilhelm
Glass, Josef, Salomon
Aleksandrowicz, David, Alexander, Lidja, Irena and Norbert
Diringer, Marjem (Marie), Gedalje

Thank you,

Michael Diamant (son of Hermann Dimant)
mdmd@... and palekaiko@...

Reminder: - Should I Upload or Not? - JGSIG July Meeting Tues July 13, 21 10 am Zoom RSVP #dna #announcements #education #events #jgs-iajgs

Arthur Sissman

Jewish Genealogy SIG July Meeting - Tues July 13, 2021  10-11:30 am EDT via Zoom - RSVP.

TimeZoneConverter - Should I Upload or Not?  

Join the Jewish Genealogy SIG June Meeting Tues 7/13/21  10-11:30 am EDT via Zoom.


Program: - Should I Upload or Not? 

The presentation will try to answer the following questions:


  • What is GEDmatch?
  • Why Should I Upload My Raw Data to GEDmatch?
  • What Questions Can GEDmatch Answer for Me?
  • Is GEDmatch Hard to Manipulate?
  • How Much Does GEDmatch Cost?
  • What are the Best Tools to Use At GEDmatch?

Start learning about GEDmatch today by watching: What is GEDmatch? How Does it Help Genetic Genealogists?  Andy Lee  Feb 19, 2019


Reserve you Zoom spot by RSVP and answer some questions below, please.  A Handout will be available for those who sign up.  Zoom link will be sent out 2-3 days before event. You will receive an acknowledgement that you signed up.


Send your RSVP to Arthur Sissman  genresearch13@...   
Please send the following info with your request.
1. Your location.
2. Are you DNA Tested? Where?
3. Have you uploaded to GEDmatch?
4. What is your #1 question about GEDmatch?




Arthur Sissman
Jewish Genealogy SIG of Naples/Collier Co FL



Join our FB page at Jewish Genealogy SIG:

Genealogy Wise page:

Re: Marriage date of 29 February 1887! #poland #records

Peter Cohen

There are three different people on that page (#3, #4 & #5) whose entries are dated 29 Feb 1887. Perhaps the clerk was operating on auto-pilot and didn't stop to realize that it was really March 1st.
Peter Cohen

JGASGP Meeting #announcements #records

Marilyn Golden

Date:  Sunday, July 11, 2021

Time:  Check in, Chat and Schmooze 1:00-1:30 pm EDT.  Official meeting 1:30 PM EDT

Guest Speaker:  Marian Smith

Topic: Researching US Citizenship and Immigration Services (USCIS) Records

Marian retired in 2018 after thirty years as an Historian for the Immigration and Naturalization Service (INS), later US Citizenship and Immigration Services (USCIS). She now speaks to groups on US immigration and nationality records and leads the I&N Records Fortnightly study group.


Marian presents an overview of three historical eras of US immigration and naturalization records, illustrated with documents of Jewish immigrants. Using a timeline tool (included in the handout), she demonstrates how plotting an immigrant’s life events can identify what records may exist for that particular immigrant and where these records can be found.


All meetings are a benefit for paid members only. Please see our website for additional membership, programming, and research information. Please join us! let me know prior to the meeting so I can send out the Zoom link.  

We are meeting through August virtually only.  We plan to have in person meetings and virtual meetings beginning in October.


1. Closed Captioning will be turned on during the meeting. 

2. This meeting will be recorded for members who are unable to attend. 

3. Please do not share the link. Our meetings are for members only and we appreciate your cooperation. 

4. The chat function between members will be turned off during the presentation. 

5. Please type your questions into the chat and they will be read by me during the Q and A.

    Ask questions that are relevant to the presentation. Any other comments, questions, or suggestions send to membership@....
Marilyn Mazer Golden, Membership VP
Jewish Genealogical and Archival Society of Greater Philadelphia
Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, USA

July 20: Creative Nonfiction Writing for Genealogists webinar from the Center for Jewish History #events

Moriah Amit

Family History Today: Creative Nonfiction Writing for Genealogists

Tuesday, July 20 at 3 PM Eastern Time


As genealogists, we often focus on facts and undertake research that produces nothing but boring lists. But do you really know what happened between the dashes of your ancestors’ lives? How can you share that information in a compelling way? Lisa Alzo, an acclaimed author and instructor who specializes in family history writing, will teach you how to use creative nonfiction writing techniques to produce a family history page-turner.

Ticket Info: Pay what you wish; register here for a Zoom link.


This program is sponsored by the Ackman & Ziff Family Genealogy Institute at the Center for Jewish History. It is funded, in part, by public funds from the New York City Department of Cultural Affairs in partnership with the City Council.

Moriah Amit
Senior Genealogy Librarian, Center for Jewish History
New York, NY

Re: How to write Jewish name in Hebrew lettering #names

Stephen Katz

I have received several replies to my query, both privately and via the group, and they've been unanimous in their spelling of the name in Hebrew! I've responded to all replies that I've seen so far. My deepest thanks to everyone who replied; you've all provided me with the information I needed, for which I'm grateful.
Stephen Katz

Re: CRI Genetics?

JoAnne Goldberg

Apparently their "50+ generations" claim is based on providing  your Y-DNA and mtDNA haplogroups -- information that is included with 23andMe tests, or you can drill down deeper with specific FamilyTreeDNA tests. Looks like a lot of their customers complain about being scammed.

Here is a great resource for test comparison:


On Mon, Jul 5, 2021 at 03:21 PM, <amitch1066@...> wrote:
Hi Everyone,

Is anyone familiar with this DNA testing company?

They claim they can test back 50+ generations with "biogeographical ancestry".  Also, are they reputable and how do they stack up against other testing companies?

Amy Mitchell

 Hi Amy,

Not a recommended company, so I would spend my money elsewhere. People regularly get odd results and there's no matching.

Take care,
Adina Newman

JoAnne Goldberg - Menlo Park, California; GEDmatch M131535


Re: CRI Genetics?


Yes, I have used CRI Genetics, but they are not a genealogy site. Here is my comparison of CRI Genetics with a typical genealogy site like MyHeritage:

Typical genealogy site with DNA testing: Does DNA testing with a primary goal of generating a list of potential genealogical leads, or potential relatives; may offer some sort of ethnicity reports; often allows you to download your raw DNA data to possibly upload at other sites; does not usually do haplogroup testing (mitochondrial or Y chromosome).

CRI Genetics: has a great scientific basis for its genetic analysis; does give deep ancestral background at various levels and breakdowns; does offer mitochondrial and Y haplogroup testing; does not allow a download of your DNA data but puts a high emphasis on privacy and security; does not have a genealogical orientation to helping clarify your historically recent family tree.

I have used both CRI Genetics and MyHeritage Genetics, but for different reasons. And I like them both. I do have a personal interest in genetics, archaeology, and evolution, including human evolution, and have taken multiple college courses in all these areas – so that is part of the basis of my interest in CRI Genetics. And I have had great difficulty figuring out my husband’s ancestry, so being able to upload his raw DNA data to GEDmatch. Com has been a great help.

I hope this is helpful.

Susan Stark

Re: CRI Genetics?


For all those who may be interested in this company:

I found them to have wonderful customer service. However, there are both pros and cons as to what they can offer, at least pertaining to my personal experience. 

My first experience was to upload my autosomal DNA results from Ancestry. The results were prompts and, come to find out later in my research, more accurate than my initial Ancestry estimates. At least they were closer. I have attached screenshots of a map and the overview of my top ethnicity from the CRI Genetics results of my last 5 generations as an example.  As a matter of fact,  there was a clue that my DNA may suggest Jewish roots which have now been found in the family tree.

My next encounter with the company was an attempt to find my Maternal Haplogroup. When I read their write-up for the test, it sounded much like an mtDNA test, maybe not Full Sequence, but close and much less expensive. So, I purchased a test, took it and sent it back, only to wait and wait. After much email communication with the company (they are excellent about customer service and communication), I was told, they needed to repeat the test. Long story short the test couldn't be processed and I asked for my money to be returned and it was returned that day. I was disappointed but they were really good about it.

One other drawback is that any test that THEY do, cannot be downloaded. you can SEE your results but not download them. I didn't realize that but it is in their agreement that you need to sign. And you never see the raw data. This is one thing I wish that I had realized beforehand.

All in all, it works differently from other companies, but I found the results to be quite accurate. I just wish you could download them. Additionally, I bet if I asked them to send me a replacement mtDNA test that they would have done it. Lesson learned.

I hope this overview was helpful. Please let me know if anyone has any questions

Connie Derosier Carter
Kissimmee, FL, Leominster, MA

Re: CRI Genetics?


On Mon, Jul 5, 2021 at 03:21 PM, <amitch1066@...> wrote:
Hi Everyone,

Is anyone familiar with this DNA testing company?

They claim they can test back 50+ generations with "biogeographical ancestry".  Also, are they reputable and how do they stack up against other testing companies?

Amy Mitchell

 Hi Amy,

Not a recommended company, so I would spend my money elsewhere. People regularly get odd results and there's no matching.

Take care,
Adina Newman

This week's featured collections in Miriam Weiner's new Surname Database at the Routes to Roots Foundation website ( include documents from the towns of: Stanislawow & Stanislawow District (now Ivano-Frankivsk, Ukraine) and Lublin, Poland. #announcements #poland #ukraine

Miriam Weiner

The Routes to Roots Foundation is offering Weekly Featured Collections from the new Surname Databases on its website at


This week, we are highlighting the following: 



1.     Stanislawow & Stanislawow District (now Ivano-Frankivsk, Ukraine)

·         1941-1944 Death Records



2.     Lublin, Poland

·         List of Jews Deported from Lublin to Belzyce, March 10, 1941



Also check the Image Database for:

             20 images of Stanislawow (now Ivano-Frankivsk, Ukraine

             24 of images Lublin, Poland


Also check the Map Database for:

              3 maps for Ivano-Frankovsk, Ukraine



Miriam Weiner

Secaucus, NJ

Re: Need Help With DNA Puzzle #dna

Jeffrey Herrmann

Adam, I think your argument is flawed.  Once the last Neanderthal died about 1,600 generations ago, no new Neanderthal DNA could enter the homo sapiens population, but by random reassortment, bits of it would be deleted each generation.  Sometimes, both a mother and a father would pass none of their Neanderthal DNA to their children, and then that bit is gone.  Unless, that is, there was some strong survival advantage for the lucky children who got it.  And there is no reason to believe that when the last Neanderthal went extinct the number of homo sapiens/Neanderthal hybrids was large compared to the number of pure homo sapiens.   Neanderthal DNA remaining in the human population should get diluted with each successive generation.  Why it survives at about 1 and 1/2 percent is still a mystery.  Many clades of archaic homo sapiens DNA went extinct and can not be found in living homo sapiens.

If (hypothetically) the last “archaic Ashkenazi Jew” went extinct 1,600 generations ago, you would not expect any archaic Ashkenazi DNA to be found in the remaining population of homo sapiens, because they would not have been a large fraction of the total human population at that time and their DNA would be diluted over subsequent time.    That is, unless archaic Ashkenazi DNA conferred a strong survival advantage.
So, are the DNA anomalies that started this thread explainable only by endogamy or something else?
Jeffrey Herrmann
New Rochelle, NY

Re: How to write Jewish name in Hebrew lettering #names

Miron Chumash

Yoyel = יואל
 Miron Chumash

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