Re: What nationality is my Grandmother - addition/clarification

Debby Gincig Painter

Unfortunately the two remaining Aunts now have Alzheimer's and so I rely on notes, info from Dortmund Archives, and a cousin for the following:

In response to below questions:
My Grandparents were considered stateless on their WWII ID cards and deportation records. My Grandparents moved to France after they were married in about 1924 and unsure what their citizenship status was there - hence my original post. My mother and her sisters were born in France, so French citizens.

Family still in Germany were French in 1921, Prussian in 1936, French in 1941. 

An Uncle who survived (born in Germany) was considered French Jew by the Germans on papers as well as his displaced person ID but it was later changed to German Jew by US officials because of a letter from Dortmund (1949) stating his parents were both German.

Debby Painter

To the original poster - 

It is not entirely clear from your wording, so I'm asking this for clarification: In 1941, who was considered stateless by the French government? Was it your mother and your sisters? Or was it only your father from Poland? Also, can you clarify which individuals were deported in 1941, and which were able to stay in France?

It sounds like the German government considered your mother to be a French citizen simply because she was born on territory in 1905 that was ceded to France after WW I. However, it seems like the French government in 1941 considered your mother to either be a German citizen (because she was born in territory at the time part of Germany in 1905) or stateless because she and her family had fled Germany for France.

Orange County JGS July Meeting Next Sunday at 10:00 am Pacific Time #announcements #jgs-iajgs

Michelle Sandler

OCJGS July Meeting
July 25 at 10:00 am (Pacific time zone)
Megan Lewis: Using online resources at the US Holocaust Memorial
Museum for researching Holocaust records
Megan Lewis is a reference librarian at the USHMM (United States
Holocaust Memorial Museum). The last time Megan spoke at one of our
meetings, she got on an airplane to fly from Washington DC. Online via
Zoom is SO much easier. We know from experience that Megan is a great
Register in advance for the virtual meeting by clicking this link:
Free for members and $5 for non members register at

Michelle Sandler
Vice President of Programming OCJGS
Westminster California

Re: Meaning and pronunciation of Yiddish surname #names #lithuania #yiddish

Yitschok Margareten

The Yiddish vowel Alef would make it be pronounced Lock or Luck, not Lack. 

The record shown, has an underline which makes it Lock, however the Yiddish-English dictionary has the symbol which makes it Luck. 

The Yiddish word for curl is pronounced luck, and I do know of a Lok family who pronounces their name as Luck. 

Yitschok Margareten

Re: Why St. Louis? #usa

Judy Floam

I thought of the IRO (which I had just read about in a book “Bread to Eat and Clothes to Wear”) but when I looked it up online, it said it was created in  1901 and the gentleman in question came here in 1894.


Judy Floam


Naming convention question #names

Steven Usdansky

I'm curious as to the naming conventions that might be relevant as I try to determine if I might be related to a Warsaw-born Russian military officer and spy. His name is variously given as (using  Romanized forms) (1) "Stefan Lazarevich Uzdansky", (2) "Stefan Lazarevich Uzdansky (Tadeushevich)", and (3) "Stefan Lazarevich Uzdansky-Jelenski". No questions regarding #1,and it's the most common form used for his name. Regarding #2, where would (Tadeushevich) have come from? It's always given in parentheses in any document that uses it. Regarding #3, would Uzdansky have been one parent and Jelenski the other, and, if so, which would likely be Lazar's surname?

Steven Usdansky
USDANSKY (Узданский): Turec, Kapyl, Klyetsk, Nyasvizh, Slutsk, Grosovo
SINIENSKI: Karelichy, Lyubcha, Navahrudak
NAMENWIRTH: Bobowa, Rzepiennik
SIGLER: "Minsk"

Re: Horodok, Belarus research #belarus #general

Janet Furba

Ask the state Archive of the Vitebsk region
г. Витебск, ул. Калинина, 22, 210015
Email: oblarhive@...

Janet Furba,

Re: Meaning and pronunciation of Yiddish surname #names #lithuania #yiddish


According to Alexander Beider´s dictornary of surnames of the kingdom of Poland, Lak (and his derivation Lok)  means sealing wax and, therefore, an occupational surname that was common in Biala, Wegrów, Zamosc and Warsaw.
If Lak is written with a slash on the L then it is excatly like my mother´s maiden name Lach which means Pole, the genitive form of the people of Poland.

Alejandro T. Rubinstein Lach

Re: Why St. Louis? #usa

Barbara Ellman


There was a program called the Industrial Removal Office that was created to encourage Jewish immigrants to move out into the country.  The program provided the fare to relocate the people and had contacts to set the immigrant up with a job.  My grandfather went to Detroit and worked at Ford for a while and then returned to NY.  The Center for Jewish History has a database of those that went west with the IRO.

The other possibility is that some people from the same town had settled in St. Louis and that's why he went there.

Barbara Ellman
Secaucus NJ USA
ELLMAN, COIRA, MAIDMAN - Minkovtsy, Ukraine
KAGLE, FASS - Ulanow, Poland

Re: What nationality is my Grandmother? #germany #france

Michele Lock

To the original poster - 

It is not entirely clear from your wording, so I'm asking this for clarification: In 1941, who was considered stateless by the French government? Was it your mother and your sisters? Or was it only your father from Poland? Also, can you clarify which individuals were deported in 1941, and which were able to stay in France?

It sounds like the German government considered your mother to be a French citizen simply because she was born on territory in 1905 that was ceded to France after WW I. However, it seems like the French government in 1941 considered your mother to either be a German citizen (because she was born in territory at the time part of Germany in 1905) or stateless because she and her family had fled Germany for France.

This brings to mind the confusion my immigrant grandmother had about what her nationality was when applying for US citizenship in 1946, after having immigrated in 1913 from Zagare, in what is now Lithuania, but was then the Russian Empire. She wrote down her nationality as 'Jewish', but my grandfather had her change it to Lithuanian in an amendment. However, she (and he) were never citizens of independent interwar Lithuania; they left before the founding of the country in 1920. They did not consider themselves to be either Russian or citizens of the Soviet Union, which by then had overtaken Lithiania again. Looking back on all this, they were really in a predicament, though luckily had no issues gaining US citizenship.

In 1946, there was no independent state of Israel, so one could not have Jewish nationality, or what is more properly termed Israeli nationality.
Michele Lock

Lak/Lok/Liak/Lock and Kalon/Kolon in Zagare/Joniskis/Gruzdziai, Lithuania
Lak/Lok/Liak/Lock in Plunge/Telsiai in Lithuania
Trisinsky/Trushinsky/Sturisky and Leybman in Dotnuva, Lithuania
Olitsky in Alytus, Suwalki, Poland/Lithuania
Gutman/Goodman in Czestochowa, Poland
Lavine/Lev/Lew in Trenton, New Jersey and Lida/Vilna gub., Belarus

Fishner Romania #romania


I am searching for any information about my Grandfather Julius Fishner from Iasi Romania.  According to his naturalization documents, his given name was Shil (Yechiel?) Fishner.  I can not find any such Fishners in Iasi.  He was born in 1892 and his father was Froim.  Any help would be greatly appreciated.  Thank you.
Jamie Berman

Re: Russian Travel Permit #russia

Phil Goldfarb

The Russian Empire Internal Passports began in the early 18th century by Peter the Great. They were used to control migration and for travel within the Empire outside of their place of residence. Not only Jews but everyone had to have one which was issued by local municipalities, town dweller administration or police officers. Depending upon class, they were issued for 6 months, 1 year or 2 years and had to be renewed. They ended with the October 1917 Russian Revolution which lifted most limitations upon internal movements of members of the laboring classes. After that time the "Russian Regulations on Employment Record Books" or Russian Labor Booklet was adopted and became the principal means of personal identification. 

I am giving a lecture at the IAJGS meeting next month (It is on tape and can be viewed at any time) titled: Passports: The History of Passports, Passport Applications, Russian/Lithuania/Latvia Internal Passports and the Nansen Passports for Refugees. I have also written two books on the subject. I will be mentoring at the IAJGS meeting on Tuesday, August 3 from 10:00 am EST to 12:00 pm EST

Phil Goldfarb
President, JGS of Tulsa

polish translation needed #poland #translation


I've posted a vital record in Polish for which I need a translation. It is on ViewMate at the following address ...
Please respond via the form provided on the ViewMate image page.
Thank you very much
M. Lenzky

How to find out-of-print books and publications #general #education


You can always locate out-of-print books through the help of a reference librarian. Start with your local library. Your library belongs to consortiums that pool expertise and can track down holdings. If you have a particularly arcane topic, seek assistance at a large city's main library, universities, and state libraries. They will have topic specialist reference librarians.

All libraries have websites. They publish email addresses, telephone numbers, and Contact Us forms. Also, the Library of Congress receives a copy of all books published in the United States. This includes a vast collection of published genealogies.

Many collections will lend books and microfilms to your local library via inter-library loan (ILL). If it's just a few pages or an article you need, they often will do a look-up. They may send you a xerox or a scan for free, or request a small fee and a self-adressed stamped envelope (SASE). is the premiere online database used to identify publications of all kinds and who has it. It is free to use. All aspiring genealogists should learn how to use this fabulous resource. Follow up with a reference librarian to find out how to obtain the resource. Some archives and libraries required me to present a letter of reference from my local library to gain access to their facility.

I am a past member of Books We Own - a website of genealogy volunteers offering look-ups in publications owned by members. JewishGen does not offer this, but other groups do. An online search will turn up active sites.

And last, but not least, there are online databases that list copies for sale by used bookdealers. The professional bookseller marketplace Alibris has one of the best known listing service and search engines for media.

Good hunting!
Pat Weinthal, USA
- whose mother was a fine, knowledgable reference librarian


Re: Russian Travel Permit #russia


I am not an authority, but it sounds like an internal passport to me.  My great-grandfather's international passport from the late 1890s was in four languages, French, German ( if I recall correctly), English and Russian. 

I suspect that petty bourgeois meant that he had a trade, perhaps what we would call working class these days.
Barbara Sloan
Conway, SC

Re: Digital book #general

rv Kaplan

In my experience over the years, no sooner than you make a fancy book, you will receive or discover further material and the book will need to be revised.  It's a price worth paying!  The advantage, of course, of a digital book  is that the updating is easily done.

I use MS Word for my various family history books and nowadays, Word has all the versatility I need.  Once I create a new version - which is always a big size because of all the images - I save it as a pdf version (takes seconds) and that makes it easier to email.

I imagine that the fancier programmes for books are more important if the book is to be printed out, but even then, you can always print from pdf.

Harvey Kaplan
Glasgow, Scotland 

Re: Researching: family Gunsberger of Papa, Hungary, including Flora/Fradel, who married a Lazar. Bodansky, Hungary. Lafosky, Ukraine, Hackers, Austria-Germany. Anyone else? #hungary #austria-czech #ukraine #holocaust #unitedkingdom

Yitschok Margareten

My wife is a descendant of the Bodansky and Gunsberger families. 

I did some research on those families, and I can help you as far as I reached with my research. 

Rabbi Berel Lazar is indeed a descendant of those families. His father Moshe Lazar was the son of Yeshaya (Alexander) Lazar and Fradel (Flora) nee Gunsberger. 

Fradel (Flora) Lazar-Gunsberger was the daughter of Yehoshua Pinchas Gunsberger and Gittel nee Bodansky. 
Fradel (Flora) had a brother Gesa who married Irma, I don't know her maiden name, but it would make sense to assume that this is Gesa and Irma you mention. 

I came across a Wikipedia article about Dr. Isabel Gal who was the daughter of Gesa Gunsberger and Irma Hacker, which mentions her husband Endre Gal and her sisters Erica and Lia. 

My information about the Gunsberger and Bodansky families is beyond a post on this group, you can contact me for more details. 

Yitschok Margareten

Digital book #general

Shimy Karni

After a year of my family research I want to create a digital book with all the findings I had gathered in an MSword document.
I thought of a digital book as it will be easier to distribute to the all my family relatives.
Does anyone have an advise for a prefared tool.
Shimi Karni

Why St. Louis? #usa


My great grandfather, Zalman Rudman, emigrated from Zaslav in what is now Ukraine in 1894. He came in through New York and settled in St. Louis. I would like to know if there was a particular reason why he traveled to and settled in St. Louis rather than in NY. To my knowledge, there were no other family members in St. Louis at the time of his arrival. Was there a community of landsmen from Zaslav or environs in St. Louis? Was there a program that encouraged Jewish immigrants to settle in St. Louis? Was something going on in St. Louis at the time that would have attracted immigrants?
I would appreciate any information, comments or ideas. Thank you.


JGS of Oregon Meeting: After you're Gone: Future Proofing Your Genealogy Research Sunday, July 25 #announcements #events #jgs-iajgs

Linda Kelley

You are invited to a free presentation on July 25:

Sunday, July 25, 10:30 a.m. Pacific Time [US and Canada]
After You're Gone:  Future-Proofing Your Genealogy Research

Thomas MacEntee,
Have you ever considered what will happen to your years of genealogy research once you’re gone? Learn how to ensure that your hard work carries on. Through a combination of planning, common sense, and new technologies, we’ll review how to create an action plan for preserving your genealogy research.

What happens when a “tech guy” with a love for history gets laid off during the Great Recession of 2008?  You get Thomas MacEntee, a genealogy professional who’s also a blogger, educator, author, social media connector, marketer, network builder, and more.

Here is the Zoom information:
Register in advance for this meeting:
After you register, you will receive a confirmation email with a link to join the meeting. On July 25, a few minutes before 10:30, please find the confirmation email and click to JOIN the meeting. You will be admitted to the meeting from the waiting room.
Hope you can join us!
Linda Wolfe Kelley
Secretary, Jewish Genealogical Society of Oregon
Portland, OR, USA


List of girls in the Jewish Orphanage in Pinsk between 1920 and 1924 with birth date 15 January 1920 with possible first names of either Sora Basha or Tova Basha. #belarus

Marilyne Rose

I am seeking information regarding my mother who was in the Pinsk Orphanage between 1920 and 1924.
I have no knowledge of her real family.  She came to England with a group of 18 Jewish children who were
brought here by a group of Jewish philanthropic people from Pinsk, when it was part of Poland. Now Pinsk is
part of Belarus and difficult to obtain information.
I believe that there are archives held in, possibly, Minsk, related to the lists of children who were in the
Jewish Orphanage in Pinsk from 1920 to 1924.
My mother travelled to London with
a group of children from the orphanage.  Unfortunately one of the
children due to travel became ill, and my mother, who was only 4 at the time, was sent in her place.  My 
mother travelled on this other child’s document, so we don’t have her real family name.  I am sure, however,
that her real first names were either Sorah Basha or Tova Basha, and her date of birth was 15 January 1920.
My mother died in 2010 at the age of 90, never knowing who she really was.  I didn’t know until I was over 
21 and married that the wonderful people I had always known as my Booba and Zaida, were actually 
no blood relation to me at all.  For security reasons my Zaida destroyed what little my Mother arrived with
in documentation, however, as she had travelled on another child’s documents she had no means of
real identity.  It is only since the advent of DNA tests and the Internet that I am trying to find out who my
Mother really was, and therefore who I am..  Thank you for reading this.  MARILYNE ROSE,

8441 - 8460 of 668828