Date   

Connection between SHAT"Z family in Karlin and Reb Chaim of Volozhin #rabbinic

Yonatan Ben-Ari
 

According to a dictated note of my great uncle, his wife's mother,
Bracha SCHECHTER (ne KANTOR) who was born in Karlin (Pinsk) was a
descendant of Reb Chaim of Volozhin. The connection seemingly via her
mother , Sarah Hinde SCHAT"Z. We are not sure if SCHATZ was the
family name or the name of her father's (Yoseph) profession "shaliach
tzibur" (cantor/Chazan).

According to one family rumor Reb Chaim's son, Itzaleh, was Sarah
Hinde's "unterferin" (escort to the "chupa"-wedding), seemingly in
place of Sarah Hinde's parents who both died at a young age.

I have seen several published trees of Reb. Chaim's descendants and
have not seen the name Sarah Hinde in any of them, although I did read
that one of R' Itzaleh's daughter's and husband passed away during his
lifetime (LANDAU).

Is anyone aware of this Sarah Hinde in the Volozhin family?

Chag Sameach

Yoni Ben-Ari, Jerusalem


Rabbinic Genealogy SIG #Rabbinic Connection between SHAT"Z family in Karlin and Reb Chaim of Volozhin #rabbinic

Yonatan Ben-Ari
 

According to a dictated note of my great uncle, his wife's mother,
Bracha SCHECHTER (ne KANTOR) who was born in Karlin (Pinsk) was a
descendant of Reb Chaim of Volozhin. The connection seemingly via her
mother , Sarah Hinde SCHAT"Z. We are not sure if SCHATZ was the
family name or the name of her father's (Yoseph) profession "shaliach
tzibur" (cantor/Chazan).

According to one family rumor Reb Chaim's son, Itzaleh, was Sarah
Hinde's "unterferin" (escort to the "chupa"-wedding), seemingly in
place of Sarah Hinde's parents who both died at a young age.

I have seen several published trees of Reb. Chaim's descendants and
have not seen the name Sarah Hinde in any of them, although I did read
that one of R' Itzaleh's daughter's and husband passed away during his
lifetime (LANDAU).

Is anyone aware of this Sarah Hinde in the Volozhin family?

Chag Sameach

Yoni Ben-Ari, Jerusalem


Attic Marriages #austria-czech

holijoli@...
 

I had never heard the Term "attic marriage". However, in the Czech
birth records there are columns for "ehelich" and "unehelich", meaning
legitimate and illegitimate. In light of familiant laws and the civic
recording of all births, and since, for the most part the Jewish
community was observant (and judgmental), I find it hard to believe
that religious but not civil unions were uncommon. One of my
ancestors had 6 unehelich children between 1840 and 1849. All took
place in her father's home. Three months after the 6th child was
born, she was able to marry the father of her children. I think they
became legitimized after the fact. She and her husband proceeded to
have 3 more children.

Susan L. Lubow


Attic Marriages #austria-czech

Hank Lobbenberg
 

This is an interesting subject for me.
My wife was born in STANISLAVOV, Poland. Her great grandparents, Simcha
Helft married Sara Teitler (>from Lysiec which is now in the Ukraine as is
STANISLAVOV now known as IVANO-FRANKIVSK.
According to the data we were able to find, their marriage records of the
mid nineteenth century are listed as "linke' and "rechte". We have
understood these references to indicate that they were religious (linke) and
civil (rechte). At that time the city was STANISLAU, Austria-Hungary.
Has anyone else have these references in their trees?
Henry Lobbenberg
TORONTO, ON, Canada


Austria-Czech SIG #Austria-Czech Attic Marriages #austria-czech

holijoli@...
 

I had never heard the Term "attic marriage". However, in the Czech
birth records there are columns for "ehelich" and "unehelich", meaning
legitimate and illegitimate. In light of familiant laws and the civic
recording of all births, and since, for the most part the Jewish
community was observant (and judgmental), I find it hard to believe
that religious but not civil unions were uncommon. One of my
ancestors had 6 unehelich children between 1840 and 1849. All took
place in her father's home. Three months after the 6th child was
born, she was able to marry the father of her children. I think they
became legitimized after the fact. She and her husband proceeded to
have 3 more children.

Susan L. Lubow


Austria-Czech SIG #Austria-Czech Attic Marriages #austria-czech

Hank Lobbenberg
 

This is an interesting subject for me.
My wife was born in STANISLAVOV, Poland. Her great grandparents, Simcha
Helft married Sara Teitler (>from Lysiec which is now in the Ukraine as is
STANISLAVOV now known as IVANO-FRANKIVSK.
According to the data we were able to find, their marriage records of the
mid nineteenth century are listed as "linke' and "rechte". We have
understood these references to indicate that they were religious (linke) and
civil (rechte). At that time the city was STANISLAU, Austria-Hungary.
Has anyone else have these references in their trees?
Henry Lobbenberg
TORONTO, ON, Canada


ViewMate translations from German/Yiddish & other cultural/historical interpretations - files # 50530, 50531, 50532, 50533, 50534. #austria-czech

Barrie Karp
 

I've posted 5 vital records (photographs with inscriptions, probably
in German, for which I seek translations; and with photographer's
stamp: Meiselas in Mukacevo, about which I seek knowledge). For all 5
records I seek historical cultural interpretations and observations.
The people in these photographs appear to be parents of my maternal
grandmother, and my grandmother and grandfather told me they came from
Munkacs, which I know was Mukacevo when these photographs were taken.
Can anyone help me find the date of these photographs? Also, I seek
translations. They are on ViewMate at the following addresses:

http://www.jewishgen.org/viewmate/viewmateview.asp?key=VM50530

Photo of my maternal great grandmother: Ester Grunbaum_Mukacevo (BDM
unknown; maiden name: BERKOWITZ), mother of Rose Greenbaum Weiss
1893-1962 (my grandmother, born or last lived before US, in Munkacs,
Bereg, Karpatalja, Hungary; died: Williamsport, PA, 12-6-1962--I have
her US records). Seeking translation of inscription and
cultural/historical interpretations or observations.


http://www.jewishgen.org/viewmate/viewmateview.asp?key=VM50531

Photo of same person as above, Viewmate # 50530. Seeking translation.
I believe it is German. Do you think it was written by the woman in
the photograph or by the photographer or some administrator or other
person?


http://www.jewishgen.org/viewmate/viewmateview.asp?key=VM50532

Seeking translation of inscription on photo document file # 50532,
from what I believe is German. I'm guessing this is my maternal great
grandfather (husband of Esther Grunbaum in file # 50530 and file #
5051) that the writing is not his. I had been told by my maternal
grandparents (WEISS married BERKOWITZ GRUNBAUM GREENBAUM WEISS), who
each came to US (NYC) early 1900s, that they came >from Munkacs (they
met in NYC, and married in NYC in 1917).


http://www.jewishgen.org/viewmate/viewmateview.asp?key=VM50533

Seeking translation and cultural historical and photographic
interpretations of file # 50533, knowledge, observations, about the
photographer's stamp on the photos of files # 50531 and # 50532.
Seeking observations >from any history of photography scholars or
ancestry photography researchers or >from anyone who may have known the
photographer or photography studio or company.

http://www.jewishgen.org/viewmate/viewmateview.asp?key=VM50534

Seeking interpretation of photograph in file 50534. Do you know or
recognize this person? Why does this look like a drawing, not a
photograph? Do you know the date of the photo, the era and location
where there were such photographs with the characteristics of this
photograph? Seeking cultural historical interpretations and
observations. Can anyone tell the occupation of this person or
anything else about him?

Please respond via the form provided in the ViewMate application or
directly by email.
Thank you very much.
Barrie Karp PhD, Philosophy
barriekarp@gmail.com

KARP; WIEN; BERKOWITZ; TUCHFELD (Romania (Iasi, Tulcea, etc.),
Ukraine, Galicia, Horodenka, Kolymyya, Lviv, Stryj, Stanislawow,
Austria Hungary, Vienna); WEISS (Kohan?); GRUNBAUM/ GREENBAUM,
BERKOWITZ, FUCHS/Fox,KLEIN, GOTTLIEB [?]; ROSENFELD, ENGEL, LOVENRIN
(Hungary: Munkacs/Mukacevo, Kovago-Eors, Kisvarda; Ukraine, Austria,
Germany, Vienna).

NYC all; Wilkes-Barre, PA; Syracuse, NY; Scranton, PA; Cleveland, OH;
Los Angeles, CA; Rochester, NY; Broward, FL; NJ


Austria-Czech SIG #Austria-Czech ViewMate translations from German/Yiddish & other cultural/historical interpretations - files # 50530, 50531, 50532, 50533, 50534. #austria-czech

Barrie Karp
 

I've posted 5 vital records (photographs with inscriptions, probably
in German, for which I seek translations; and with photographer's
stamp: Meiselas in Mukacevo, about which I seek knowledge). For all 5
records I seek historical cultural interpretations and observations.
The people in these photographs appear to be parents of my maternal
grandmother, and my grandmother and grandfather told me they came from
Munkacs, which I know was Mukacevo when these photographs were taken.
Can anyone help me find the date of these photographs? Also, I seek
translations. They are on ViewMate at the following addresses:

http://www.jewishgen.org/viewmate/viewmateview.asp?key=VM50530

Photo of my maternal great grandmother: Ester Grunbaum_Mukacevo (BDM
unknown; maiden name: BERKOWITZ), mother of Rose Greenbaum Weiss
1893-1962 (my grandmother, born or last lived before US, in Munkacs,
Bereg, Karpatalja, Hungary; died: Williamsport, PA, 12-6-1962--I have
her US records). Seeking translation of inscription and
cultural/historical interpretations or observations.


http://www.jewishgen.org/viewmate/viewmateview.asp?key=VM50531

Photo of same person as above, Viewmate # 50530. Seeking translation.
I believe it is German. Do you think it was written by the woman in
the photograph or by the photographer or some administrator or other
person?


http://www.jewishgen.org/viewmate/viewmateview.asp?key=VM50532

Seeking translation of inscription on photo document file # 50532,
from what I believe is German. I'm guessing this is my maternal great
grandfather (husband of Esther Grunbaum in file # 50530 and file #
5051) that the writing is not his. I had been told by my maternal
grandparents (WEISS married BERKOWITZ GRUNBAUM GREENBAUM WEISS), who
each came to US (NYC) early 1900s, that they came >from Munkacs (they
met in NYC, and married in NYC in 1917).


http://www.jewishgen.org/viewmate/viewmateview.asp?key=VM50533

Seeking translation and cultural historical and photographic
interpretations of file # 50533, knowledge, observations, about the
photographer's stamp on the photos of files # 50531 and # 50532.
Seeking observations >from any history of photography scholars or
ancestry photography researchers or >from anyone who may have known the
photographer or photography studio or company.

http://www.jewishgen.org/viewmate/viewmateview.asp?key=VM50534

Seeking interpretation of photograph in file 50534. Do you know or
recognize this person? Why does this look like a drawing, not a
photograph? Do you know the date of the photo, the era and location
where there were such photographs with the characteristics of this
photograph? Seeking cultural historical interpretations and
observations. Can anyone tell the occupation of this person or
anything else about him?

Please respond via the form provided in the ViewMate application or
directly by email.
Thank you very much.
Barrie Karp PhD, Philosophy
barriekarp@gmail.com

KARP; WIEN; BERKOWITZ; TUCHFELD (Romania (Iasi, Tulcea, etc.),
Ukraine, Galicia, Horodenka, Kolymyya, Lviv, Stryj, Stanislawow,
Austria Hungary, Vienna); WEISS (Kohan?); GRUNBAUM/ GREENBAUM,
BERKOWITZ, FUCHS/Fox,KLEIN, GOTTLIEB [?]; ROSENFELD, ENGEL, LOVENRIN
(Hungary: Munkacs/Mukacevo, Kovago-Eors, Kisvarda; Ukraine, Austria,
Germany, Vienna).

NYC all; Wilkes-Barre, PA; Syracuse, NY; Scranton, PA; Cleveland, OH;
Los Angeles, CA; Rochester, NY; Broward, FL; NJ


Photographer P. Ostrovski of Suwalki #lithuania

J Weisman
 

Greetings Friends!

I've reposted to ViewMate the back of a photograph of my gg grandmother,
Dyna BERLIN-KRYKSZTANSKY, >from Seirijai. I haven't been able to get an
accurate translation of the Yiddish handwriting on the back. Please let
me know via the ViewMate form if you have any ideas, or feel free to
email me directly.

On ViewMate at the following address:
http://www.jewishgen.org/viewmate/viewmateview.asp?key=VM50432=20

I'm told the photographer stamp reads

Foto P. Ostrovski
Suwalki
Bazarnaya Place (Market place)
House Rozental Nr 67

Does anyone know where I can find out what years this photographer was
in business there?

Thanks kindly,
Julie Weisman
New York

Researching
BERLIN, KRYKSZTANSKY, and DUGOVSKY, mostly >from Seirijai
BIRKENFELD >from Budapest


Lithuania SIG #Lithuania Photographer P. Ostrovski of Suwalki #lithuania

J Weisman
 

Greetings Friends!

I've reposted to ViewMate the back of a photograph of my gg grandmother,
Dyna BERLIN-KRYKSZTANSKY, >from Seirijai. I haven't been able to get an
accurate translation of the Yiddish handwriting on the back. Please let
me know via the ViewMate form if you have any ideas, or feel free to
email me directly.

On ViewMate at the following address:
http://www.jewishgen.org/viewmate/viewmateview.asp?key=VM50432=20

I'm told the photographer stamp reads

Foto P. Ostrovski
Suwalki
Bazarnaya Place (Market place)
House Rozental Nr 67

Does anyone know where I can find out what years this photographer was
in business there?

Thanks kindly,
Julie Weisman
New York

Researching
BERLIN, KRYKSZTANSKY, and DUGOVSKY, mostly >from Seirijai
BIRKENFELD >from Budapest


Gdansk & Lomza KehilaLinks #poland

Eli Rabinowitz
 

Hi all

I am in process of setting up the first Kehilalink for Gdansk, Poland.

I invite you to send in your stories, memories, photos, family
biographies and articles on Jewish life in Gdansk.

I have also adopted the Lomza KehilaLink and welcome suitable material
that I can post on your behalf on that website.

Here are examples of the kind of material we are looking for:

http://kehilalinks.jewishgen.org/nasielsk/Rotsztejn.html
http://kehilalinks.jewishgen.org/graaff_reinet/Wertheim.html
http://kehilalinks.jewishgen.org/nasielsk/Kurtz.html

The other Polish KehilaLinks I manage are:

Lublin
Poznan (Posen)
Wroclaw (Breslau)
Nasielsk
Orla
Lomza

For links to my 70+ KehilaLinks, please visit:
http://elirab.me/litvak-portal/kehilalinks/

About KehilaLinks:

JewishGen KehilaLinks is a project facilitating web pages commemorating
the places where Jews have lived. KehilaLinks provides the opportunity
for anyone with an interest in a place to create web pages about that
community. These web pages may contain information, pictures, databases,
and links to other sources providing data about that place.

Please contact me privately at eli@elirab.com

Thanks and regards

Eli Rabinowitz
Perth, Australia
http://elirab.me/litvak-portal/


JRI Poland #Poland Gdansk & Lomza KehilaLinks #poland

Eli Rabinowitz
 

Hi all

I am in process of setting up the first Kehilalink for Gdansk, Poland.

I invite you to send in your stories, memories, photos, family
biographies and articles on Jewish life in Gdansk.

I have also adopted the Lomza KehilaLink and welcome suitable material
that I can post on your behalf on that website.

Here are examples of the kind of material we are looking for:

http://kehilalinks.jewishgen.org/nasielsk/Rotsztejn.html
http://kehilalinks.jewishgen.org/graaff_reinet/Wertheim.html
http://kehilalinks.jewishgen.org/nasielsk/Kurtz.html

The other Polish KehilaLinks I manage are:

Lublin
Poznan (Posen)
Wroclaw (Breslau)
Nasielsk
Orla
Lomza

For links to my 70+ KehilaLinks, please visit:
http://elirab.me/litvak-portal/kehilalinks/

About KehilaLinks:

JewishGen KehilaLinks is a project facilitating web pages commemorating
the places where Jews have lived. KehilaLinks provides the opportunity
for anyone with an interest in a place to create web pages about that
community. These web pages may contain information, pictures, databases,
and links to other sources providing data about that place.

Please contact me privately at eli@elirab.com

Thanks and regards

Eli Rabinowitz
Perth, Australia
http://elirab.me/litvak-portal/


New Record Registers Now Available for Indexing by JRI-Poland at AGAD Archive #poland

Mark Halpern
 

Dear Fellow Galitzianers:

JRI-Poland and Galician researchers have been waiting all year for vital
record registers to be transferred >from the Warsaw USC (civil records
office) to the AGAD Archive in Warsaw. Coincidental to the Jewish High
Holidays, JRI-Poland was notified of the transfer of 46 registers that
are now in the AGAD Archives and available for indexing.

Before providing the entire list, there are two surprises - towns where
no records are now found in the JRI-Poland database. These are
Gwozdziec*, where the register containing 1879-1915 marriages are now
available for indexing, and Sadowa Wisznia*, where 1901-1905 births are
now available for indexing.

Other records are:
Boryslaw* 1914-1915 BMD
Bobrka* 1900-1915 B
Drohobycz* 1915 BMD
Jaryczow Nowy 1915 BD
Kamionka Strumilowa 1910-1915 M; 1908-1915 D
Kolomyja* 1915 BMD
Lwow 1915 MD
Mosty Wielkie 1903-1915 B
Rozdol* 1906-1915 B
Sambor* 1914-1915 B; 1911-1915 D
Skalat* 1908-1915 D
Sokal* 1914-1915 BMD
Stanislawow 1914-1915 D
Stryj* 1915 BM
Szczerzec* 1915 BD
Sniatyn 1863-1915 (supplemental/late registrations)
Tarnopol* 1914-1915 D
Tartakow 1914-1915 MD
Uhnow 1908-1915 B
Winniki* 1915 BM
Zloczow* 1914-1915 B
Zniesienie (Lwow) 1915 BMD
Zolkiew 1912-1915 M; 1914-1915 D

You can help make sure that your town's records are indexed. It is
contributions >from interested researchers that pay for the indexing of
these records by a team of professionals in Warsaw.

If you want to support your town , make your contribution by following
the instructions at http://www.jri-poland.org/support.htm and be sure to
apply your contribution to "AGAD-your town," where the town or towns you
want to support are identified.

Those donors making contributions equal to or greater than the
qualifying contribution for a town are able to obtain the Excel file
of those indices as soon as they are available and before they are
placed in the online database. Records indices for a town are not placed
online until the town project is fully funded. The qualifying
contribution for most of these towns is $100 except for Bobrka and
Winniki which are $50, Kolomyja, Lwow, and Zniesienie which are $150,
and Stanislawow which is $180.

JRI-Poland has ordered the indexing of the towns identified with an
asterisk (*). Although indexing has been ordered, most of these towns
are not fully funded yet.

If you have any questions, please write me directly at mark@halpern.com.

When you are researching your Galician roots, please be sure to search
both the JRI-Poland database and the Gesher Galicia All Galician
Database. Both have important record indexes/extracts with very little
overlap.

A very happy and healthy 5777 to everyone,
Mark Halpern
JRI-Poland AGAD Archive Coordinator


ViewMate translation request - Russian #poland

Jacob Hammer <magijak@...>
 

Dear Fellow Researchers,

I've posted 5 vital records in Russian, >from Mogielnica, for which I need
extraction of all genealogical data (names, dates, places).
I'd appreciate as complete a translation as possible.

It is on ViewMate at the following addresses:
http://www.jewishgen.org/viewmate/viewmateview.asp?key=VM50494
http://www.jewishgen.org/viewmate/viewmateview.asp?key=VM50493
http://www.jewishgen.org/viewmate/viewmateview.asp?key=VM50492
http://www.jewishgen.org/viewmate/viewmateview.asp?key=VM50444
http://www.jewishgen.org/viewmate/viewmateview.asp?key=VM50443

Please respond via the form provided in the ViewMate application.

Thank you very much,
magijak@gmail.com

Jacob Hammer


JRI Poland #Poland New Record Registers Now Available for Indexing by JRI-Poland at AGAD Archive #poland

Mark Halpern
 

Dear Fellow Galitzianers:

JRI-Poland and Galician researchers have been waiting all year for vital
record registers to be transferred >from the Warsaw USC (civil records
office) to the AGAD Archive in Warsaw. Coincidental to the Jewish High
Holidays, JRI-Poland was notified of the transfer of 46 registers that
are now in the AGAD Archives and available for indexing.

Before providing the entire list, there are two surprises - towns where
no records are now found in the JRI-Poland database. These are
Gwozdziec*, where the register containing 1879-1915 marriages are now
available for indexing, and Sadowa Wisznia*, where 1901-1905 births are
now available for indexing.

Other records are:
Boryslaw* 1914-1915 BMD
Bobrka* 1900-1915 B
Drohobycz* 1915 BMD
Jaryczow Nowy 1915 BD
Kamionka Strumilowa 1910-1915 M; 1908-1915 D
Kolomyja* 1915 BMD
Lwow 1915 MD
Mosty Wielkie 1903-1915 B
Rozdol* 1906-1915 B
Sambor* 1914-1915 B; 1911-1915 D
Skalat* 1908-1915 D
Sokal* 1914-1915 BMD
Stanislawow 1914-1915 D
Stryj* 1915 BM
Szczerzec* 1915 BD
Sniatyn 1863-1915 (supplemental/late registrations)
Tarnopol* 1914-1915 D
Tartakow 1914-1915 MD
Uhnow 1908-1915 B
Winniki* 1915 BM
Zloczow* 1914-1915 B
Zniesienie (Lwow) 1915 BMD
Zolkiew 1912-1915 M; 1914-1915 D

You can help make sure that your town's records are indexed. It is
contributions >from interested researchers that pay for the indexing of
these records by a team of professionals in Warsaw.

If you want to support your town , make your contribution by following
the instructions at http://www.jri-poland.org/support.htm and be sure to
apply your contribution to "AGAD-your town," where the town or towns you
want to support are identified.

Those donors making contributions equal to or greater than the
qualifying contribution for a town are able to obtain the Excel file
of those indices as soon as they are available and before they are
placed in the online database. Records indices for a town are not placed
online until the town project is fully funded. The qualifying
contribution for most of these towns is $100 except for Bobrka and
Winniki which are $50, Kolomyja, Lwow, and Zniesienie which are $150,
and Stanislawow which is $180.

JRI-Poland has ordered the indexing of the towns identified with an
asterisk (*). Although indexing has been ordered, most of these towns
are not fully funded yet.

If you have any questions, please write me directly at mark@halpern.com.

When you are researching your Galician roots, please be sure to search
both the JRI-Poland database and the Gesher Galicia All Galician
Database. Both have important record indexes/extracts with very little
overlap.

A very happy and healthy 5777 to everyone,
Mark Halpern
JRI-Poland AGAD Archive Coordinator


JRI Poland #Poland ViewMate translation request - Russian #poland

Jacob Hammer <magijak@...>
 

Dear Fellow Researchers,

I've posted 5 vital records in Russian, >from Mogielnica, for which I need
extraction of all genealogical data (names, dates, places).
I'd appreciate as complete a translation as possible.

It is on ViewMate at the following addresses:
http://www.jewishgen.org/viewmate/viewmateview.asp?key=VM50494
http://www.jewishgen.org/viewmate/viewmateview.asp?key=VM50493
http://www.jewishgen.org/viewmate/viewmateview.asp?key=VM50492
http://www.jewishgen.org/viewmate/viewmateview.asp?key=VM50444
http://www.jewishgen.org/viewmate/viewmateview.asp?key=VM50443

Please respond via the form provided in the ViewMate application.

Thank you very much,
magijak@gmail.com

Jacob Hammer


Researching: Sallie FINE; formerly of Merthyr Tydfil and later of Jenkintown PA #general

Robert Fraser
 

Dear Friends -

This is probably a very long shot, but here goes anyway. I'm
hoping to make contact with the descendants of Mrs Sallie
Fine. She lived in Merthyr Tydfil, South Wales, latterly
sharing a house with her sister, Mrs Anne Sherman. Both were
widowed. In about the mid-1980's, she moved with her
daughter-in-law to Jenkintown PA. Almost certainly, she has
since passed away, but there must be children and
grandchildren somewhere. I knew some of her children, but
have long since forgotten their names.

I have no more information than that which I've described
above. If someone could point me in the direction of her
descendants, I'd be very grateful.

Robert Fraser
Perth, Western Australia

MODERATOR NOTE: Please send contact information privately.


JewishGen Discussion Group #JewishGen Researching: Sallie FINE; formerly of Merthyr Tydfil and later of Jenkintown PA #general

Robert Fraser
 

Dear Friends -

This is probably a very long shot, but here goes anyway. I'm
hoping to make contact with the descendants of Mrs Sallie
Fine. She lived in Merthyr Tydfil, South Wales, latterly
sharing a house with her sister, Mrs Anne Sherman. Both were
widowed. In about the mid-1980's, she moved with her
daughter-in-law to Jenkintown PA. Almost certainly, she has
since passed away, but there must be children and
grandchildren somewhere. I knew some of her children, but
have long since forgotten their names.

I have no more information than that which I've described
above. If someone could point me in the direction of her
descendants, I'd be very grateful.

Robert Fraser
Perth, Western Australia

MODERATOR NOTE: Please send contact information privately.


Basic info on NYC Marriage Indexes/Certificates #general

A. E. Jordan
 

People have been asking about the NYC marriage licenses and
certificates so I thought I would offer a quick overview of the
files and my experience. (I am going to be at the Archives again
this Tursday working in the files if anyone needs help.)

New York City started keeping track of vital records only in the mid
to late 1800s -- later than many other locations. The earliest
records are actually in ledger books but by the 1880s went to
individual certificates.

In general, the earlier records are all at the NYC Municipal Archives
on microfilm. These are the files that were also indexed online by a
large group of volunteers and you can access those indexes by the
Stephen Morse One Step pages and other indices are on Family Search,
ItalianGen, etc..

Specifically when it comes to marriages the New York City Department
of Health issued certificates >from the 1800s through 1937. These are
the ones online via Stephen Morse's tools. The form is basic and
fairly well known to anyone doing NYC research. It has the name of
the bride and groom, asks their age, where they were born, their
parents' names and place of birth, for the man his occupation, their
"color" meaning ethnic origins, and the number of marriages. There
are two witnesses and the person that conducted the ceremony their
name and address and affiliation. It also tells the place the ceremony
took place and of course the date. Unlike NYC death certificates which
kept changing this is basically a standard form until it is discontinued
after 1937.

The confusion is coming >from the records that are now going on line.
The New York City Clerk also began issuing marriage licenses which is
generally a three page form. It starts in 1908 and through 1929 the
index and the certificates are at the New York City Municipal Archives
in separate films >from the Health Department. The Archives has had
these files for many years. The Archives also has only the index
through 1950. After 1950 the certificates are only at the NYC Marriage
Bureau which is a few blocks north the Municipal Archives.

These documents are officially labeled the Affidavit for License to
Marry. Like the Health Department form it also asks for the name of
the bride and groom as well their "color", place of residence, age,
occupation, name of the parents and the parent's place of birth. It
also asks for the number of marriages as well if the prior spouse is
still living and if it was a divorce they ask for the details of the
divorce, ie date and place. The Affidavit is followed by the License
and the Marriage Certificate in the form and the information is the
same except the Certificate adds the names of the witness and who
performed the ceremony.

My experience is that the information is basically the same between
the Health Department and the City Clerk forms. People rarely answered
the questions differently or in more details between the two different
forms. The most significant different between the two files is the
details if there was a divorce and in some cases I am finding supporting
documentation attached to the City Clerk file. Generally it is birth
certificates, baptismal certificates or letters stating parental consent
for the bride if she was young.

The Marriage Bureau will give out a copy of any record that is more than
50 years old because they consider it public record. But they are no
self-serve like the Municipal Archives and they charge $15 versus the $11
at the Archives. They do all the work in the search and printing so it
is best if you have already found the marriage in the index online or at
the Archives.

The marriage index >from 1950 forward has recently come on line which
helps you to search out the details versus the older years where the
record is not searchable online. For the older years you need to browse
the films which are sorted by borough and year and then by the first two
letters of the family name and then grouped by month and finally in the
date order of when the license were applied for not the date of the
marriage. Licenses could be issued days or weeks before a marriage and
they could be applied for in any borough regardless of where you lived
or where you were going to get married.

As a rule of thumb searching the index of the older records start where
the bride and groom lived or else work >from Manhattan to Brooklyn (Kings
County) to The Bronx and later Queens or Staten Island (Richmond) only
if they are not found. There were less marriages in Queens and Staten
Island and definitely less Jewish marriages.

Note what I have been consistently told is that a marriage license was
not mandatory in the early years. A lot of people got them but they
could also go to an established religious organization and ask to be
married. So the early years of the license file are not as complete as
the Health Department where everyone who got married in New York City
got a Health Department form.

Also the old index has no cross reference between bride and groom. If
you know both names and you find one in the index you can of course
then check it with the matching bride or groom but if you do not know
both names there is no way >from the index along to cross reference.

I hope this answers some of the questions and confusion between the two
NYC marriage files. I am always happy to try and answer questions about
New York City resources.

Allan Jordan


JewishGen Discussion Group #JewishGen Basic info on NYC Marriage Indexes/Certificates #general

A. E. Jordan
 

People have been asking about the NYC marriage licenses and
certificates so I thought I would offer a quick overview of the
files and my experience. (I am going to be at the Archives again
this Tursday working in the files if anyone needs help.)

New York City started keeping track of vital records only in the mid
to late 1800s -- later than many other locations. The earliest
records are actually in ledger books but by the 1880s went to
individual certificates.

In general, the earlier records are all at the NYC Municipal Archives
on microfilm. These are the files that were also indexed online by a
large group of volunteers and you can access those indexes by the
Stephen Morse One Step pages and other indices are on Family Search,
ItalianGen, etc..

Specifically when it comes to marriages the New York City Department
of Health issued certificates >from the 1800s through 1937. These are
the ones online via Stephen Morse's tools. The form is basic and
fairly well known to anyone doing NYC research. It has the name of
the bride and groom, asks their age, where they were born, their
parents' names and place of birth, for the man his occupation, their
"color" meaning ethnic origins, and the number of marriages. There
are two witnesses and the person that conducted the ceremony their
name and address and affiliation. It also tells the place the ceremony
took place and of course the date. Unlike NYC death certificates which
kept changing this is basically a standard form until it is discontinued
after 1937.

The confusion is coming >from the records that are now going on line.
The New York City Clerk also began issuing marriage licenses which is
generally a three page form. It starts in 1908 and through 1929 the
index and the certificates are at the New York City Municipal Archives
in separate films >from the Health Department. The Archives has had
these files for many years. The Archives also has only the index
through 1950. After 1950 the certificates are only at the NYC Marriage
Bureau which is a few blocks north the Municipal Archives.

These documents are officially labeled the Affidavit for License to
Marry. Like the Health Department form it also asks for the name of
the bride and groom as well their "color", place of residence, age,
occupation, name of the parents and the parent's place of birth. It
also asks for the number of marriages as well if the prior spouse is
still living and if it was a divorce they ask for the details of the
divorce, ie date and place. The Affidavit is followed by the License
and the Marriage Certificate in the form and the information is the
same except the Certificate adds the names of the witness and who
performed the ceremony.

My experience is that the information is basically the same between
the Health Department and the City Clerk forms. People rarely answered
the questions differently or in more details between the two different
forms. The most significant different between the two files is the
details if there was a divorce and in some cases I am finding supporting
documentation attached to the City Clerk file. Generally it is birth
certificates, baptismal certificates or letters stating parental consent
for the bride if she was young.

The Marriage Bureau will give out a copy of any record that is more than
50 years old because they consider it public record. But they are no
self-serve like the Municipal Archives and they charge $15 versus the $11
at the Archives. They do all the work in the search and printing so it
is best if you have already found the marriage in the index online or at
the Archives.

The marriage index >from 1950 forward has recently come on line which
helps you to search out the details versus the older years where the
record is not searchable online. For the older years you need to browse
the films which are sorted by borough and year and then by the first two
letters of the family name and then grouped by month and finally in the
date order of when the license were applied for not the date of the
marriage. Licenses could be issued days or weeks before a marriage and
they could be applied for in any borough regardless of where you lived
or where you were going to get married.

As a rule of thumb searching the index of the older records start where
the bride and groom lived or else work >from Manhattan to Brooklyn (Kings
County) to The Bronx and later Queens or Staten Island (Richmond) only
if they are not found. There were less marriages in Queens and Staten
Island and definitely less Jewish marriages.

Note what I have been consistently told is that a marriage license was
not mandatory in the early years. A lot of people got them but they
could also go to an established religious organization and ask to be
married. So the early years of the license file are not as complete as
the Health Department where everyone who got married in New York City
got a Health Department form.

Also the old index has no cross reference between bride and groom. If
you know both names and you find one in the index you can of course
then check it with the matching bride or groom but if you do not know
both names there is no way >from the index along to cross reference.

I hope this answers some of the questions and confusion between the two
NYC marriage files. I am always happy to try and answer questions about
New York City resources.

Allan Jordan

60521 - 60540 of 654977