Date   

Re: Auschwitz Victims from Gyor #hungary

mirda <mirda@...>
 

Dear Kitty,
A good refernce source for the holocaust victims by communities
is the "Yizkor Book Database" of the JewishGen.
There one can find a memorial book book about the Jews of Papa edited by
Yehuda Gyula Lang, (written in Hungarian):
"A papai zsidosag emlekkonyve," Tel Aviv, 1974.
An English version or excert of the book can be found in the homepage:
http://www.jewishgen.org/yizkor/Papa/Papa.html

Shana tova from
Miryam Gordon
Rehovot, Israel

----- Original Message -----
From: <BruceKitty@aol.com>
To: H-SIG <h-sig@lyris.jewishgen.org>
Sent: éåí øàùåï 21 ñôèîáø 2003 09:54
Subject: [h-sig] Re: Auschwitz Victims >from Gyor


: Myriam,
: Would you possibly be able to tell me if there exists an Auschwitz Holocaust
: Victims
: List >from "Papa" similar to the one >from Gyor? Where, or to whom should I
: write
: or e-mail inorder to obtain this information?
: Thank you for your reply.
: Sincerely,
: Kitty Friedbauer Sauber
: e-mail < brucekitty@aol.com >


Re: Halic, Slovakia (Ga'cs, HU) #hungary

Robert Neu
 

I don't think it is a hyphenation. Only marking of the phonetic mark
over the a when including it in the text is not available.
Robert Neu
--- B Frederics <picturethisfilm@email.com> wrote:

Does someone know why the town name "Ga'cs" would be hypenated? Does
it mean
that it's abbreviated for a longer name?

Also, would someone kindly tell me when Ga'cs, Hungary became Halic,
Slovakia?

Thanks.

Bonnie Frederics
Tucson, AZ
picturethisfilm@email.com

Searching for:
LOWY (Ga'cs, Hungary or Halic, SL)


Hungary SIG #Hungary Re: Auschwitz Victims from Gyor #hungary

mirda <mirda@...>
 

Dear Kitty,
A good refernce source for the holocaust victims by communities
is the "Yizkor Book Database" of the JewishGen.
There one can find a memorial book book about the Jews of Papa edited by
Yehuda Gyula Lang, (written in Hungarian):
"A papai zsidosag emlekkonyve," Tel Aviv, 1974.
An English version or excert of the book can be found in the homepage:
http://www.jewishgen.org/yizkor/Papa/Papa.html

Shana tova from
Miryam Gordon
Rehovot, Israel

----- Original Message -----
From: <BruceKitty@aol.com>
To: H-SIG <h-sig@lyris.jewishgen.org>
Sent: éåí øàùåï 21 ñôèîáø 2003 09:54
Subject: [h-sig] Re: Auschwitz Victims >from Gyor


: Myriam,
: Would you possibly be able to tell me if there exists an Auschwitz Holocaust
: Victims
: List >from "Papa" similar to the one >from Gyor? Where, or to whom should I
: write
: or e-mail inorder to obtain this information?
: Thank you for your reply.
: Sincerely,
: Kitty Friedbauer Sauber
: e-mail < brucekitty@aol.com >


Hungary SIG #Hungary Re: Halic, Slovakia (Ga'cs, HU) #hungary

Robert Neu
 

I don't think it is a hyphenation. Only marking of the phonetic mark
over the a when including it in the text is not available.
Robert Neu
--- B Frederics <picturethisfilm@email.com> wrote:

Does someone know why the town name "Ga'cs" would be hypenated? Does
it mean
that it's abbreviated for a longer name?

Also, would someone kindly tell me when Ga'cs, Hungary became Halic,
Slovakia?

Thanks.

Bonnie Frederics
Tucson, AZ
picturethisfilm@email.com

Searching for:
LOWY (Ga'cs, Hungary or Halic, SL)


No Subject #hungary

BruceKitty@...
 

Would you help me, how can one get the vital records for my grandmother from
PAPA, Hungary. (The <www. natarch.hu > was not helpful )
Many Thanks!
Kitty Sauber <brucekitty@aol.com>


Hungary SIG #Hungary No Subject #hungary

BruceKitty@...
 

Would you help me, how can one get the vital records for my grandmother from
PAPA, Hungary. (The <www. natarch.hu > was not helpful )
Many Thanks!
Kitty Sauber <brucekitty@aol.com>


Re: Halic, Slovakia (Ga'cs, HU) #hungary

Stephen Casey <caseydanhan@...>
 

It is not hyphenated, only a mis-typed Hungarian spelling. In Hungarian the
first 2 letters of the alphabet are "a" "á", meaning a longer sounding "a".
It is most definitely not an abbreviation.

Gács became Halic in 1918, when Northern Hungary became part of
Czechoslovakia, according to the Trianon Peace Treaty. It is the Slovak name
for Gács, now the "official" name. Mapquest shows Halic in today's Slovakia.

Stephen
caseydanhan@hotmail.com

From: "B Frederics" <picturethisfilm@email.com>
Reply-To: "H-SIG" <h-sig@lyris.jewishgen.org>
To: "H-SIG" <h-sig@lyris.jewishgen.org>
Subject: [h-sig] Halic, Slovakia (Ga'cs, HU)
Date: Sun, 21 Sep 2003 16:38:33 -0700

Does someone know why the town name "Ga'cs" would be hypenated? Does it
mean
that it's abbreviated for a longer name?

Also, would someone kindly tell me when Ga'cs, Hungary became Halic,
Slovakia?

Thanks.

Bonnie Frederics
Tucson, AZ
picturethisfilm@email.com

Searching for:
LOWY (Ga'cs, Hungary or Halic, SL)


Re: Death Certificate Translation Request #hungary

Robert Friedman <vze2sv8z@...>
 

What a difference a letter makes. Bossa'ny was in Nyitra county, and
is now Bosany, Slovakia. Whether this implies a second marriage, or a
name change (Magyarization) >from Hertzfeld, is a subject for further
investigation.

Bob Friedman, NYC
inwood@pipeline.com

(On Sun, 21 Sep 2003 16:23:19 -0400, "Jerry Zeisler"
<jzeisler@email.com> wrote:

Thank you Bob and Vivian and all the others for your replies, although =
I'm
still quite confused regarding the Bessa'nyi issue. Here's why.

As you recall in my original message, my g-gf Rabbi Joseph ZEISLER, =
entered
the name Bossa'nyi into the "Maiden Name of Mother" field on the death
certificate of his wife, Irma LORY ZEISLER. I know >from obtaining her
Budapest birth record that her mother's maiden name was Nina HERTZFELD. =
In
the following field for the mother's birthplace, he entered "Budapest." =
So
why would Joseph have entered two locations? Just to clarify the issue =
the
death records appears as such (my comments are in parenthesis ())

Deceased: Irma ZEISLER
Birthplace: Budapest (correct)
Name of Father: Ignatz LO'ERY (LOWY)
Birthplace of Father: Ga'cs, Hungary
Maiden Name of Mother: Bossa'nyi (definitely an o after the B)(mother's
maiden name was HERTZFELD)
Birthplace of Mother: Budapest, Hungary (unverified)

So I would believe that the field containing the Maiden Name of Mother =
must
be a name and not a location since the location was specified in the =
field
below. But the name doesn't make sense since we know that it is not her
mother's name. So confusion reigns.

There is one possibility that my 18 year-old daughter came up with. We =
know
that Nina HERTZFELD died before her daughter, Irma, married Joseph in =
1879.
I'm wondering if the name Bessa'nyi could be that of a second wife of =
Ignatz
LOWY, Irma's stepmother?=20

By the way, for those of you who are interested, Nina HERTZFELD and =
Ignatz
LOWY were the grandparents of Baroness Melanie GROEDEL, wife of Hermann.

I'm open for more opinions and suggestions. If anyone thinks that it =
would
be beneficial, I can post the death certificate on ViewMate. This one is
really strange.

Sincerely,
Jerry Zeisler
Leesburg, Virginia USA


Hungary SIG #Hungary Re: Halic, Slovakia (Ga'cs, HU) #hungary

Stephen Casey <caseydanhan@...>
 

It is not hyphenated, only a mis-typed Hungarian spelling. In Hungarian the
first 2 letters of the alphabet are "a" "á", meaning a longer sounding "a".
It is most definitely not an abbreviation.

Gács became Halic in 1918, when Northern Hungary became part of
Czechoslovakia, according to the Trianon Peace Treaty. It is the Slovak name
for Gács, now the "official" name. Mapquest shows Halic in today's Slovakia.

Stephen
caseydanhan@hotmail.com

From: "B Frederics" <picturethisfilm@email.com>
Reply-To: "H-SIG" <h-sig@lyris.jewishgen.org>
To: "H-SIG" <h-sig@lyris.jewishgen.org>
Subject: [h-sig] Halic, Slovakia (Ga'cs, HU)
Date: Sun, 21 Sep 2003 16:38:33 -0700

Does someone know why the town name "Ga'cs" would be hypenated? Does it
mean
that it's abbreviated for a longer name?

Also, would someone kindly tell me when Ga'cs, Hungary became Halic,
Slovakia?

Thanks.

Bonnie Frederics
Tucson, AZ
picturethisfilm@email.com

Searching for:
LOWY (Ga'cs, Hungary or Halic, SL)


Hungary SIG #Hungary Re: Death Certificate Translation Request #hungary

Robert Friedman <vze2sv8z@...>
 

What a difference a letter makes. Bossa'ny was in Nyitra county, and
is now Bosany, Slovakia. Whether this implies a second marriage, or a
name change (Magyarization) >from Hertzfeld, is a subject for further
investigation.

Bob Friedman, NYC
inwood@pipeline.com

(On Sun, 21 Sep 2003 16:23:19 -0400, "Jerry Zeisler"
<jzeisler@email.com> wrote:

Thank you Bob and Vivian and all the others for your replies, although =
I'm
still quite confused regarding the Bessa'nyi issue. Here's why.

As you recall in my original message, my g-gf Rabbi Joseph ZEISLER, =
entered
the name Bossa'nyi into the "Maiden Name of Mother" field on the death
certificate of his wife, Irma LORY ZEISLER. I know >from obtaining her
Budapest birth record that her mother's maiden name was Nina HERTZFELD. =
In
the following field for the mother's birthplace, he entered "Budapest." =
So
why would Joseph have entered two locations? Just to clarify the issue =
the
death records appears as such (my comments are in parenthesis ())

Deceased: Irma ZEISLER
Birthplace: Budapest (correct)
Name of Father: Ignatz LO'ERY (LOWY)
Birthplace of Father: Ga'cs, Hungary
Maiden Name of Mother: Bossa'nyi (definitely an o after the B)(mother's
maiden name was HERTZFELD)
Birthplace of Mother: Budapest, Hungary (unverified)

So I would believe that the field containing the Maiden Name of Mother =
must
be a name and not a location since the location was specified in the =
field
below. But the name doesn't make sense since we know that it is not her
mother's name. So confusion reigns.

There is one possibility that my 18 year-old daughter came up with. We =
know
that Nina HERTZFELD died before her daughter, Irma, married Joseph in =
1879.
I'm wondering if the name Bessa'nyi could be that of a second wife of =
Ignatz
LOWY, Irma's stepmother?=20

By the way, for those of you who are interested, Nina HERTZFELD and =
Ignatz
LOWY were the grandparents of Baroness Melanie GROEDEL, wife of Hermann.

I'm open for more opinions and suggestions. If anyone thinks that it =
would
be beneficial, I can post the death certificate on ViewMate. This one is
really strange.

Sincerely,
Jerry Zeisler
Leesburg, Virginia USA


Re: The Kalonymus Family #rabbinic

Chaim freedman
 

On 2003.09.22, under the subject title "Facts and Legend," Neil
Rosenstein <neil@tali.com> wrote (in part):

. . . Even the famous epitaph of
Meshullam b. Kalonymus, who died 1171 in Mainz, does *not* have
HaLevi on it - why? . . .
That same day, Scott Rosenberg <sdavidr@mindspring.com> responded:

Why? Probably for the same reason many Levi'im >aren't noted as such
on their tombstones. Levitical membership has no >serious religious
import today.
The key word which contradicts Scott's claim is "today." Even if
his claim that there is no significance today were true (quite
incorrect, at least on Orthodox tombstones) it has no relevance to
the period of the Kalonymides or any other medieval families whose
tombstones certainly bore the title "HaLevy" if it was justified.

Chaim Freedman
Petah Tikvah, Israel
mailto:chaimjan@zahav.net.il


Rabbinic Genealogy SIG #Rabbinic Re: The Kalonymus Family #rabbinic

Chaim freedman
 

On 2003.09.22, under the subject title "Facts and Legend," Neil
Rosenstein <neil@tali.com> wrote (in part):

. . . Even the famous epitaph of
Meshullam b. Kalonymus, who died 1171 in Mainz, does *not* have
HaLevi on it - why? . . .
That same day, Scott Rosenberg <sdavidr@mindspring.com> responded:

Why? Probably for the same reason many Levi'im >aren't noted as such
on their tombstones. Levitical membership has no >serious religious
import today.
The key word which contradicts Scott's claim is "today." Even if
his claim that there is no significance today were true (quite
incorrect, at least on Orthodox tombstones) it has no relevance to
the period of the Kalonymides or any other medieval families whose
tombstones certainly bore the title "HaLevy" if it was justified.

Chaim Freedman
Petah Tikvah, Israel
mailto:chaimjan@zahav.net.il


Re: From Rashi to King David #rabbinic

Yisrael Asper <yisraelasper@...>
 

On 2003.09.22, under the subject title "Facts and Legend," Neil
Rosenstein <neil@tali.com> wrote (in part):

4. The is no uniformity as to whether Simon the Great son of Isaac
the Great was *in*fact* the uncle of Rashi. See the discussion in
the 1903 Jew. Encyc. about this with various references. Thus all
the discussions about Rashi's line, through his mother, linking to
Kalonymus might be moot here too.
About Rabbi Shimon the Great the Jewish Encyclopedia says "He is to
be distinguished >from R. Simeon, Rashi's maternal uncle, since the
latter appears to have been a pupil of R. Gershom (comp. Rashi's
commentary on Shab. 85b and on 'Er. 42b)." Rashi's uncle was called
Rabbi Shimon the Elder and the dispute about whether he is identical
with Rabbi Shimon the Great hinges on, as far as I know, only on
whether he could on the one hand have (if it is true what I read)
even have served on a Beit Din with Rabbeinu Gershom Meor HaGolah
(Rabbeinu Gershom Light of the Exile) and still have supposedly been
his pupil, as has also been said about him (though such a thing as a
student becoming an equal happened in the Talmud).

In the Rishonim by Artscroll it says that it appears doubtful if
Rashi ever studied with Rabbi Shimon the Elder and if it is that the
two Rabbi Shimons were identical. Artscroll would have Rashi's
uncle already dead by the time it says Rashi was born. This could be
an argument on behalf of their identicalness.

Yisrael Asper

[Moderator's Note:
The 1903 Jewish Encyclopedia reference by Dr. Neil Rosenstein may
be found online at http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/index.jsp ]


Re: Our ggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggf Rashi #rabbinic

Chaim freedman
 

On 2003.09.21, Carlos Glikson <cglikson@ciudad.com.ar> quoted a
news article as follows:

an estimation of 1500 Jewish families - dating
back to the 14th century - being the source for the total Ashkenazi
population today [...]
Further to the calculation of the probability of descent >from Rashi
as dependent on the size of the Jewish population of Europe, see
Neil Rosenstein's article on RavSIG:

http://www.jewishgen.org/Rabbinic/journal/ashkenazic.htm

Chaim Freedman
Petah Tikvah, Israel
mailto:chaimjan@zahav.net.il


Rabbinic Genealogy SIG #Rabbinic Re: From Rashi to King David #rabbinic

Yisrael Asper <yisraelasper@...>
 

On 2003.09.22, under the subject title "Facts and Legend," Neil
Rosenstein <neil@tali.com> wrote (in part):

4. The is no uniformity as to whether Simon the Great son of Isaac
the Great was *in*fact* the uncle of Rashi. See the discussion in
the 1903 Jew. Encyc. about this with various references. Thus all
the discussions about Rashi's line, through his mother, linking to
Kalonymus might be moot here too.
About Rabbi Shimon the Great the Jewish Encyclopedia says "He is to
be distinguished >from R. Simeon, Rashi's maternal uncle, since the
latter appears to have been a pupil of R. Gershom (comp. Rashi's
commentary on Shab. 85b and on 'Er. 42b)." Rashi's uncle was called
Rabbi Shimon the Elder and the dispute about whether he is identical
with Rabbi Shimon the Great hinges on, as far as I know, only on
whether he could on the one hand have (if it is true what I read)
even have served on a Beit Din with Rabbeinu Gershom Meor HaGolah
(Rabbeinu Gershom Light of the Exile) and still have supposedly been
his pupil, as has also been said about him (though such a thing as a
student becoming an equal happened in the Talmud).

In the Rishonim by Artscroll it says that it appears doubtful if
Rashi ever studied with Rabbi Shimon the Elder and if it is that the
two Rabbi Shimons were identical. Artscroll would have Rashi's
uncle already dead by the time it says Rashi was born. This could be
an argument on behalf of their identicalness.

Yisrael Asper

[Moderator's Note:
The 1903 Jewish Encyclopedia reference by Dr. Neil Rosenstein may
be found online at http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/index.jsp ]


Rabbinic Genealogy SIG #Rabbinic Re: Our ggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggf Rashi #rabbinic

Chaim freedman
 

On 2003.09.21, Carlos Glikson <cglikson@ciudad.com.ar> quoted a
news article as follows:

an estimation of 1500 Jewish families - dating
back to the 14th century - being the source for the total Ashkenazi
population today [...]
Further to the calculation of the probability of descent >from Rashi
as dependent on the size of the Jewish population of Europe, see
Neil Rosenstein's article on RavSIG:

http://www.jewishgen.org/Rabbinic/journal/ashkenazic.htm

Chaim Freedman
Petah Tikvah, Israel
mailto:chaimjan@zahav.net.il


Re: From the Maharal to King David #rabbinic

Yisrael Asper <yisraelasper@...>
 

On 2003.09.22, under the subject title "Facts and Legend," Neil
Rosenstein <neil@tali.com> wrote (in part):

2. [...] Believe it or not, if you
read what the *original* Mateh Moshe of the 1740s states it says
that Judah Lowe was (quote) rosh mishpachto i.e., head of the family
- whatever that means - a patriarch, the most famous in the family,
a great uncle, or maybe an ancestor - who knows?? The 19th Cent.
edition decided to change that to read zekeino - his ancestor! [...]

3. There is no early link between Judah Lowe the Elder and either
Hai Gaon or the Kalonymus lines.
If it is true that Judah Lowe the Elder was in any way a prominent
figure in his family, especially if he was known as a rosh mishpachot
(head of the family) then I would be surprised to see any mention
especially for his descendants of the descent mentioned for him on
his tombstone. It would be enough to know that people are related to
him. It can make it harder on us amateur genealogy hunters as these
ancestors serve as touchstones for ancestry and then we have to do
the dirty work figuring out what others already knew and considered
great about these people's descent.

In regard to Neil Rosenstein's statement that "there is no early
link between Judah Lowe the Elder and either Hai Gaon or the
Kalonymus lines," at least we can point to the Babylonian traditions
being spread in Europe alongside the ones >from Israel partially
through the Kalonymus family and their ancestral connections from
both. (They certainly were, I see >from reading, an extremely
central source of Jewish tradition >from both parts, and a much more
important, religiously speaking family then I ever knew before.)

Yisrael Asper


Rabbinic Genealogy SIG #Rabbinic Re: From the Maharal to King David #rabbinic

Yisrael Asper <yisraelasper@...>
 

On 2003.09.22, under the subject title "Facts and Legend," Neil
Rosenstein <neil@tali.com> wrote (in part):

2. [...] Believe it or not, if you
read what the *original* Mateh Moshe of the 1740s states it says
that Judah Lowe was (quote) rosh mishpachto i.e., head of the family
- whatever that means - a patriarch, the most famous in the family,
a great uncle, or maybe an ancestor - who knows?? The 19th Cent.
edition decided to change that to read zekeino - his ancestor! [...]

3. There is no early link between Judah Lowe the Elder and either
Hai Gaon or the Kalonymus lines.
If it is true that Judah Lowe the Elder was in any way a prominent
figure in his family, especially if he was known as a rosh mishpachot
(head of the family) then I would be surprised to see any mention
especially for his descendants of the descent mentioned for him on
his tombstone. It would be enough to know that people are related to
him. It can make it harder on us amateur genealogy hunters as these
ancestors serve as touchstones for ancestry and then we have to do
the dirty work figuring out what others already knew and considered
great about these people's descent.

In regard to Neil Rosenstein's statement that "there is no early
link between Judah Lowe the Elder and either Hai Gaon or the
Kalonymus lines," at least we can point to the Babylonian traditions
being spread in Europe alongside the ones >from Israel partially
through the Kalonymus family and their ancestral connections from
both. (They certainly were, I see >from reading, an extremely
central source of Jewish tradition >from both parts, and a much more
important, religiously speaking family then I ever knew before.)

Yisrael Asper


Re: Poland or Russia #poland

Lafranklin1@...
 

From: "Carlos Pinkus" <cpinkus@fibertel.com.ar>

Dear Group;

I read in the American Heritage Dictinary that Poland had 3 partitions,
1772, 1793 and 1795 and disappeared as a geographical entity.

In 1918 Poland recovered, >from Russia, its territory and its goverment, the
Republic.

My mother was born in 1912 in Bialystok and my father in 1903 in Lodz.

Their nationality was Polish or Russish?

I want to note that the elderly immigrants in my family would turn over in
their graves if I were to say that they were Russian OR Polish. They were
Jewish, which was not either Russian or Polish. When I would ask this question as a child, I got very definite answers, that we were NOT Russians or Poles!

Lynn Franklin


BialyGen: Bialystok Region #Bialystok #Poland Re: Poland or Russia #poland

Lafranklin1@...
 

From: "Carlos Pinkus" <cpinkus@fibertel.com.ar>

Dear Group;

I read in the American Heritage Dictinary that Poland had 3 partitions,
1772, 1793 and 1795 and disappeared as a geographical entity.

In 1918 Poland recovered, >from Russia, its territory and its goverment, the
Republic.

My mother was born in 1912 in Bialystok and my father in 1903 in Lodz.

Their nationality was Polish or Russish?

I want to note that the elderly immigrants in my family would turn over in
their graves if I were to say that they were Russian OR Polish. They were
Jewish, which was not either Russian or Polish. When I would ask this question as a child, I got very definite answers, that we were NOT Russians or Poles!

Lynn Franklin