Date   

*re: 19th Century Geography #hungary

Tom Venetianer <tom.vene@...>
 

Sam,

You would be amazed how much Jews travelled during those times,
reaching far distant countries and towns. Trains were a very common
transportation mean in the Austro-Hungarian empire and the tracks
crossed the territory in all directions. Just to give you one
example, my family spread and settled >from Italy to Austria to
Slovakia to Hungary and to Romania. All this along the late 18th and
mid 19th centuries. We are talking here of distances which are close
to 6-700 miles. Nyiregyhaza (capital of Szabolcs county) is only
about 150 miles >from Kosice/Nagyida!!

Also remember that during that period marriages were many times
arranged by matchmakers, the family or a rabbi. Distance wasn't
necessarily an element, since Jews were unwelcome almost everywhere
so people, mainly young men, emigrated quite easily just to get
married and to begin a new life/parnasah.

However one custom was also quite common: marriages were held at the
bride's town or shtetl and the groom's relatives came for the
wedding, many times travelling several days >from their place of
origin.

Just a thought.
Regards
Tom
-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-. -.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-. -.-.-
Tom Venetianer <mailto:tom.vene@uol.com.br>
Sao Paulo - Brazil

At 00:00 -0600 08.01.04, H-SIG digest wrote:
Subject: 19th Century Geography
From: "Sam Schleman" <Samara99@comcast.net>
Date: Mon, 5 Jan 2004 20:20:51 -0500
X-Message-Number: 5

Dear Genners.

The marriage took place around 1870. Given the transportation modes and
limitations of the time, I am trying to determine the likely area that
someone >from Velka Ida would meet someone and form enough of a relationship
to result in marriage. For example, is it at all likely that someone from
the Kosice area would meet and marry someone >from Szabolcs County, which
would require going across the apparently mountainous terrain of Zemplen?
Sam Schleman


Hungary SIG #Hungary *re: 19th Century Geography #hungary

Tom Venetianer <tom.vene@...>
 

Sam,

You would be amazed how much Jews travelled during those times,
reaching far distant countries and towns. Trains were a very common
transportation mean in the Austro-Hungarian empire and the tracks
crossed the territory in all directions. Just to give you one
example, my family spread and settled >from Italy to Austria to
Slovakia to Hungary and to Romania. All this along the late 18th and
mid 19th centuries. We are talking here of distances which are close
to 6-700 miles. Nyiregyhaza (capital of Szabolcs county) is only
about 150 miles >from Kosice/Nagyida!!

Also remember that during that period marriages were many times
arranged by matchmakers, the family or a rabbi. Distance wasn't
necessarily an element, since Jews were unwelcome almost everywhere
so people, mainly young men, emigrated quite easily just to get
married and to begin a new life/parnasah.

However one custom was also quite common: marriages were held at the
bride's town or shtetl and the groom's relatives came for the
wedding, many times travelling several days >from their place of
origin.

Just a thought.
Regards
Tom
-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-. -.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-. -.-.-
Tom Venetianer <mailto:tom.vene@uol.com.br>
Sao Paulo - Brazil

At 00:00 -0600 08.01.04, H-SIG digest wrote:
Subject: 19th Century Geography
From: "Sam Schleman" <Samara99@comcast.net>
Date: Mon, 5 Jan 2004 20:20:51 -0500
X-Message-Number: 5

Dear Genners.

The marriage took place around 1870. Given the transportation modes and
limitations of the time, I am trying to determine the likely area that
someone >from Velka Ida would meet someone and form enough of a relationship
to result in marriage. For example, is it at all likely that someone from
the Kosice area would meet and marry someone >from Szabolcs County, which
would require going across the apparently mountainous terrain of Zemplen?
Sam Schleman


Horrific destruction of Semihaly Cemetery #hungary

gen@...
 

Dear Genners,

It is with much alarm and distress that we received the catastrophic news
of the latest act of blatant defilement of our ancestors' dignity, this time
in Semihaly(Budszentmihaly). Reputed internationally as the final resting
place of such Torah giants as the MaHarshag Z"l, the Semihaly cemetery is
now in a state of utter ruin and disrepair.

This overt display of contempt and deliberate disregard was reported last
week by one of the representatives of our Heritage Foundation for
Preservation of Jewish Cemeteries (a.k.a. HFPJC), a volunteer, non-profit
organization dedicated to the restoration of neglected and/or vandalized
cemeteries throughout Eastern Europe. On a routine trip to supervise the
reconstruction efforts in several Hungarian cemeteries, the representative
utilized the opportunity to visit the Semihaly cemetery and check up on the
situation there. Arriving at the cemetery, he was appalled to see the
grounds devastated and wrecked beyond recognition. Severed body parts of
some of the interred kedoshim lay strewn among the ruins Shocked and
horrified, he immediately abandoned his agenda for the day and started
gathering earth >from neighboring fields, attempting to cover as much of the
defiled area as possible with his bare hands. After many long hours and much
hard work, he finally completed this formidable task, and all the
disinterred parts were covered.

We at the HFPJC immediately commenced the restoration process by attempting
to obtain the original survey and map >from the government authorities, who
are being very helpful and accommodating. Determining the precise boundaries
of the cemetery grounds is a significant requirement preliminary to the
erection of an enclosure. Naturally, the only way to ensure the safety of
the cemetery and to avoid a repeat performance is to build a concrete,
durable fence around the entire cemetery grounds.

As is customary prior to reconstruction in every cemetery, the Rabbinical
authorities affiliated with our organization, the Asra Kadisha of Israel and
the Committee of Preservation of Jewish Cemeteries in London, were informed
of the situation and we will be in close contact along the entire process.

It has not been determined yet who is responsible for this horrendous act.
However, it is emblematic of the urgent need to enclose cemeteries with a
sturdy, concrete fence, thereby deeming it off-limits to the public.

For additional info, comments, etc. you can contact us at:

Heritage Foundation for Preservation of Jewish Cemeteries (HFPJC)

148 Ross Street

Brooklyn, NY 11211

Tel: 800-945-1552

Fax:718-228-8368

E-mail: gen@jewishcemeterypreservation.org

Or: hfpjc@thejnet.com

All the best, and a very Happy New Year to all......

Toby Mendlowitz
Assistant Director
HFPJC

Moderator VK: Please contact Mr. Mendlowitz off-list for additional information.


Hungary SIG #Hungary Horrific destruction of Semihaly Cemetery #hungary

gen@...
 

Dear Genners,

It is with much alarm and distress that we received the catastrophic news
of the latest act of blatant defilement of our ancestors' dignity, this time
in Semihaly(Budszentmihaly). Reputed internationally as the final resting
place of such Torah giants as the MaHarshag Z"l, the Semihaly cemetery is
now in a state of utter ruin and disrepair.

This overt display of contempt and deliberate disregard was reported last
week by one of the representatives of our Heritage Foundation for
Preservation of Jewish Cemeteries (a.k.a. HFPJC), a volunteer, non-profit
organization dedicated to the restoration of neglected and/or vandalized
cemeteries throughout Eastern Europe. On a routine trip to supervise the
reconstruction efforts in several Hungarian cemeteries, the representative
utilized the opportunity to visit the Semihaly cemetery and check up on the
situation there. Arriving at the cemetery, he was appalled to see the
grounds devastated and wrecked beyond recognition. Severed body parts of
some of the interred kedoshim lay strewn among the ruins Shocked and
horrified, he immediately abandoned his agenda for the day and started
gathering earth >from neighboring fields, attempting to cover as much of the
defiled area as possible with his bare hands. After many long hours and much
hard work, he finally completed this formidable task, and all the
disinterred parts were covered.

We at the HFPJC immediately commenced the restoration process by attempting
to obtain the original survey and map >from the government authorities, who
are being very helpful and accommodating. Determining the precise boundaries
of the cemetery grounds is a significant requirement preliminary to the
erection of an enclosure. Naturally, the only way to ensure the safety of
the cemetery and to avoid a repeat performance is to build a concrete,
durable fence around the entire cemetery grounds.

As is customary prior to reconstruction in every cemetery, the Rabbinical
authorities affiliated with our organization, the Asra Kadisha of Israel and
the Committee of Preservation of Jewish Cemeteries in London, were informed
of the situation and we will be in close contact along the entire process.

It has not been determined yet who is responsible for this horrendous act.
However, it is emblematic of the urgent need to enclose cemeteries with a
sturdy, concrete fence, thereby deeming it off-limits to the public.

For additional info, comments, etc. you can contact us at:

Heritage Foundation for Preservation of Jewish Cemeteries (HFPJC)

148 Ross Street

Brooklyn, NY 11211

Tel: 800-945-1552

Fax:718-228-8368

E-mail: gen@jewishcemeterypreservation.org

Or: hfpjc@thejnet.com

All the best, and a very Happy New Year to all......

Toby Mendlowitz
Assistant Director
HFPJC

Moderator VK: Please contact Mr. Mendlowitz off-list for additional information.


Re: 19th Century Geography #hungary

Doug Cohen
 

I'm not sure about the rules in the Austro-Hungarian Empire, but I do know
that in Poland/Russia, one was "registered" in a certain town, but might
live quite far away. It was difficult to get the registration changed -- so
one might be a Bostonian, but spend most of one's life in Chicago, so to
speak.

Doug Cohen
Lexington, MA
DMC@dmcohen.com

----- Original Message -----
From: "Pamela Weisberger" <pweisberger@hotmail.com>
To: "H-SIG" <h-sig@lyris.jewishgen.org>
Sent: Wednesday, January 07, 2004 4:01 PM
Subject: [h-sig] 19th Century Geography


Regarding Sam Schleman's inquiry relating to his grandparents' 1870
marriage:

"Is it at all likely that someone >from the Kosice area would meet and
marry
someone >from Szabolcs County, which would require going across the
apparently mountainous terrain of Zemplen?"

In the past I would have been skeptical about the likelihood of these
longer-distance unions, but when I located my great-grandparents in the
1869
Zemplen County census, living in Nagy Tarkany (today, Velky Trakany,
Slovakia) north of Kosice, I was surprised to see my ggfather's town of
birth listed as Ungvar (Uzhgorod, Ukraine today), which was in Ung County,
and my ggmother's birth town as Gyure, in Szablocs County. I also found
that their first two children were born in the late 1850s in Eor, which is
also in Szablocs County, but much further south than Gyure, where they
probably were married

Although today these various towns are all within an hour's drive of each
other (albeit in three different countries) the traveling distances were
fairly monumental if done by horse and carriage in the 1850s when this
couple were probably married. The only conclusion to be drawn is that
yes,
either due to the strength and inter-relationship of various synagogues or
communities in these three neighboring counties, a fair degree of
matchingmaking or networking (to use a more current term) between the Jews
of that era, did occur.

Having traveled these roads two years ago, the terrain in this area is not
as mountainous as you might think, once one gets to Uzghorod and heads
south
or south-west, so perhaps the roads were not that difficult to travel even
in the late 19th century. As an exmple, I recall my grandmother (born in
1896 in Szabolcs county) remembering her carriage drives to visit her
grandfather in Tiszaszalka, in Bereg County, crossing the Tisza river.
Today this drive would take a good half hour by car, so even considering
the
difficulty at the turn of the century, it was still considered do-able.

I should add that due to an almost twenty-year difference in my
great-grandparents' ages, I must consider the possibility that my ggfather
had been previously married and possibly had already lived in Gyure when
his
first wife died, and he subsequently met my ggmother while already living
in
that town:
another explanation of how matches might have been made. Without the luck
of finding them in that census, however, I'm not sure how I would have put
these puzzle pieces together! All this means for you, however, is that,
yes,
you probably need to consider a broader search in finding the towns of
origin for you relatives...or, at least, don't rule out any possiblities.

Best of luck!

Pamela Weisberger
Santa Monica, CA


Hungary SIG #Hungary Re: 19th Century Geography #hungary

Doug Cohen
 

I'm not sure about the rules in the Austro-Hungarian Empire, but I do know
that in Poland/Russia, one was "registered" in a certain town, but might
live quite far away. It was difficult to get the registration changed -- so
one might be a Bostonian, but spend most of one's life in Chicago, so to
speak.

Doug Cohen
Lexington, MA
DMC@dmcohen.com

----- Original Message -----
From: "Pamela Weisberger" <pweisberger@hotmail.com>
To: "H-SIG" <h-sig@lyris.jewishgen.org>
Sent: Wednesday, January 07, 2004 4:01 PM
Subject: [h-sig] 19th Century Geography


Regarding Sam Schleman's inquiry relating to his grandparents' 1870
marriage:

"Is it at all likely that someone >from the Kosice area would meet and
marry
someone >from Szabolcs County, which would require going across the
apparently mountainous terrain of Zemplen?"

In the past I would have been skeptical about the likelihood of these
longer-distance unions, but when I located my great-grandparents in the
1869
Zemplen County census, living in Nagy Tarkany (today, Velky Trakany,
Slovakia) north of Kosice, I was surprised to see my ggfather's town of
birth listed as Ungvar (Uzhgorod, Ukraine today), which was in Ung County,
and my ggmother's birth town as Gyure, in Szablocs County. I also found
that their first two children were born in the late 1850s in Eor, which is
also in Szablocs County, but much further south than Gyure, where they
probably were married

Although today these various towns are all within an hour's drive of each
other (albeit in three different countries) the traveling distances were
fairly monumental if done by horse and carriage in the 1850s when this
couple were probably married. The only conclusion to be drawn is that
yes,
either due to the strength and inter-relationship of various synagogues or
communities in these three neighboring counties, a fair degree of
matchingmaking or networking (to use a more current term) between the Jews
of that era, did occur.

Having traveled these roads two years ago, the terrain in this area is not
as mountainous as you might think, once one gets to Uzghorod and heads
south
or south-west, so perhaps the roads were not that difficult to travel even
in the late 19th century. As an exmple, I recall my grandmother (born in
1896 in Szabolcs county) remembering her carriage drives to visit her
grandfather in Tiszaszalka, in Bereg County, crossing the Tisza river.
Today this drive would take a good half hour by car, so even considering
the
difficulty at the turn of the century, it was still considered do-able.

I should add that due to an almost twenty-year difference in my
great-grandparents' ages, I must consider the possibility that my ggfather
had been previously married and possibly had already lived in Gyure when
his
first wife died, and he subsequently met my ggmother while already living
in
that town:
another explanation of how matches might have been made. Without the luck
of finding them in that census, however, I'm not sure how I would have put
these puzzle pieces together! All this means for you, however, is that,
yes,
you probably need to consider a broader search in finding the towns of
origin for you relatives...or, at least, don't rule out any possiblities.

Best of luck!

Pamela Weisberger
Santa Monica, CA


national roof garden #yiddish

Joel Berkowitz <yankl@...>
 

The National Roof Garden was indeed a theatre, which sat above the National
Theatre at 111 E. Houston Street. In her doctoral thesis, "Second Avenue:
The Yiddish Broadway," Diane's Cypkin describes the building as follows:
"Constructed in Italian Renaissance style, with a decorative ornamental
clock on its exterior face, its gold and rose interior had the same seating
capacity as the Second Avenue Theatre (1,986). Its rooftop theatre, also
done in gold and rose, had a thousand seat capacity. It was particularly
prominent in the late 1920s and early 1930s as an American burlesque house,
run by the Minsky's [sic]." (pp.130-31)

Joel Berkowitz


Re: National Roof Garden Theater #yiddish

NFatouros@...
 

On Jan.8, 2004, Barbara Meyers (babycat3@aol.com) said her "husband's
grandfather had listed himself as a theater prompter back in 1917" and that
"it looks like his place of employment was the National Roof Garden in the
area of Houston St. and Madison Avenue." She wanted to know whether the National
Roof Garden rings a bell with anyone.."

It did not ring a bell with me. I did not recognize it >from Hutchin's
Hapgood's chapter on "The State" in his "The Spirit of the Ghetto," but some quick
online searches, using a couple of search terms, soon turned up two articles
posted by Jim Zwick on the Educational Alliance and Children's Theater, while
with another set of search terms I pulled up an article on a bibliography of
Yiddish Theater which Zachary Baker wrote to the Mendele mail group's Yiddish
Theater Forum. In it he mentions a play by Harry Kalmanowitz on birth control
("Rassen Selbstmord" ("Race suicide") which was produced on July 21, 1916, at
the National Roof Garden. See:

http://shakti.trincoll.edu/~mendele/ytf/ytf02001.htm

(I imagine that if Emma Goldman, who lived on the Lower East Side, saw this
play she would have been infuriated because, in addition to her anarchic and
socialist proselytizing, she was an ardent advocate of birth control.)

Some Jewishgenners may recognize Zachary Baker's name >from his former
position as Yivo's senior librarian, and his many contributions and talks about
Jewish subjects. I know Jim Zwick >from his pages on Mark Twain and Twain's
ill-fated acquaintance with Maxim Gorky.


These few online searches revealed that there were and sometimes still are
theater and musical performances on roof tops. In New York, on July, 1907, Flo
Ziegfield, as I learned >from my search on Ms. Meyer's behalf, produced a
"Follies" show at the "Jardin de Paris," a run-down place with "a corrugated steel
roof, open sides and awnings which could be lowered in case of rain."

My thanks to Ms. Meyer for asking such an amusing question.
I'd not before known all this this. As I've said before, I am constantly
astonished at what I can find on the Internet. The Internet often saves steps to
my disorderly bookshelves and tripping over to the occasional jumble of books
on my floors!



Naomi Fatouros (nee FELDMAN)
Bloomington, Indiana
NFatouros@aol.com
Researching: BELKOWSKY and BIELKOWSKY, Odessa,St. Petersburg and
Berdichev;ROTHSTEIN, Kremenchug; FELDMAN, Pinsk; SCHUTZ, RETTIG, WAHL, Shcherets; LEVY,
WEIL, Mulhouse; SAS or SASS,Podwolochisk; RAPOPORT, Tarnopol, Podwolochisk,
Berdichev; BEHAM, Salok and Kharkov; WOLPIANSKY, Ostryna.


Yiddish Theatre and Vadeville #YiddishTheatre national roof garden #yiddish

Joel Berkowitz <yankl@...>
 

The National Roof Garden was indeed a theatre, which sat above the National
Theatre at 111 E. Houston Street. In her doctoral thesis, "Second Avenue:
The Yiddish Broadway," Diane's Cypkin describes the building as follows:
"Constructed in Italian Renaissance style, with a decorative ornamental
clock on its exterior face, its gold and rose interior had the same seating
capacity as the Second Avenue Theatre (1,986). Its rooftop theatre, also
done in gold and rose, had a thousand seat capacity. It was particularly
prominent in the late 1920s and early 1930s as an American burlesque house,
run by the Minsky's [sic]." (pp.130-31)

Joel Berkowitz


Yiddish Theatre and Vadeville #YiddishTheatre RE: National Roof Garden Theater #yiddish

NFatouros@...
 

On Jan.8, 2004, Barbara Meyers (babycat3@aol.com) said her "husband's
grandfather had listed himself as a theater prompter back in 1917" and that
"it looks like his place of employment was the National Roof Garden in the
area of Houston St. and Madison Avenue." She wanted to know whether the National
Roof Garden rings a bell with anyone.."

It did not ring a bell with me. I did not recognize it >from Hutchin's
Hapgood's chapter on "The State" in his "The Spirit of the Ghetto," but some quick
online searches, using a couple of search terms, soon turned up two articles
posted by Jim Zwick on the Educational Alliance and Children's Theater, while
with another set of search terms I pulled up an article on a bibliography of
Yiddish Theater which Zachary Baker wrote to the Mendele mail group's Yiddish
Theater Forum. In it he mentions a play by Harry Kalmanowitz on birth control
("Rassen Selbstmord" ("Race suicide") which was produced on July 21, 1916, at
the National Roof Garden. See:

http://shakti.trincoll.edu/~mendele/ytf/ytf02001.htm

(I imagine that if Emma Goldman, who lived on the Lower East Side, saw this
play she would have been infuriated because, in addition to her anarchic and
socialist proselytizing, she was an ardent advocate of birth control.)

Some Jewishgenners may recognize Zachary Baker's name >from his former
position as Yivo's senior librarian, and his many contributions and talks about
Jewish subjects. I know Jim Zwick >from his pages on Mark Twain and Twain's
ill-fated acquaintance with Maxim Gorky.


These few online searches revealed that there were and sometimes still are
theater and musical performances on roof tops. In New York, on July, 1907, Flo
Ziegfield, as I learned >from my search on Ms. Meyer's behalf, produced a
"Follies" show at the "Jardin de Paris," a run-down place with "a corrugated steel
roof, open sides and awnings which could be lowered in case of rain."

My thanks to Ms. Meyer for asking such an amusing question.
I'd not before known all this this. As I've said before, I am constantly
astonished at what I can find on the Internet. The Internet often saves steps to
my disorderly bookshelves and tripping over to the occasional jumble of books
on my floors!



Naomi Fatouros (nee FELDMAN)
Bloomington, Indiana
NFatouros@aol.com
Researching: BELKOWSKY and BIELKOWSKY, Odessa,St. Petersburg and
Berdichev;ROTHSTEIN, Kremenchug; FELDMAN, Pinsk; SCHUTZ, RETTIG, WAHL, Shcherets; LEVY,
WEIL, Mulhouse; SAS or SASS,Podwolochisk; RAPOPORT, Tarnopol, Podwolochisk,
Berdichev; BEHAM, Salok and Kharkov; WOLPIANSKY, Ostryna.


Sad news to share #ukraine

Carol W. Skydell <cwskydell@...>
 

JewishGen has just learned of the passing of one of our long time users and
friends, Marshall Frenkel of Maitland Florida. For anyone who would like
to attend services on Jan. 11 or vist the family during shiva, all the
information is contained on www.legacy.com To access the obituary,
just enter the surname in the left hand sidebar.

We extend our sincere condolences to Maitland's family and friends.

Carol Skydell, Vice President
JewishGen Special Projects


Ukraine SIG #Ukraine Sad news to share #ukraine

Carol W. Skydell <cwskydell@...>
 

JewishGen has just learned of the passing of one of our long time users and
friends, Marshall Frenkel of Maitland Florida. For anyone who would like
to attend services on Jan. 11 or vist the family during shiva, all the
information is contained on www.legacy.com To access the obituary,
just enter the surname in the left hand sidebar.

We extend our sincere condolences to Maitland's family and friends.

Carol Skydell, Vice President
JewishGen Special Projects


Arthur Miller's grandfather's father's name #general

Rosalind
 

Please can someone help?
Family verbal history has it that my greatgrandmother and Arthur Miller's
grandfather Samuel MILLER were sibs. There were various other snippets that
added credence to this. Also another brother Mark aybe Mordechai.
Recently I learned that Rebecca SHERMAN was indeed born Rebecca MALER.
I have managed to trace her family and my greatgrandfather's families I
*believe* to a little place called VANDZIOGALA in Lithuania.
I could clinch this if only I could find out Rebecca's and Samuel's father's
name. Rebecca's death certificate does not reveal the secret.
Can anyone tell me where Samuel MILLER is buried or when he died. Or
when/where he was born. Basically I really need his *father's name*.
His wife's name was Augusta (Gussie maybe?).
I have tried the obvious which is to write to Arthur Miller, but he did not
reply. I have no idea how to reach his sister Joan Copeland.
I have read Arthur's biographical book twice over.The answer is not there.
Hoping hard,
Thanks you
Ros Romem
Jerusalem


JewishGen Discussion Group #JewishGen Arthur Miller's grandfather's father's name #general

Rosalind
 

Please can someone help?
Family verbal history has it that my greatgrandmother and Arthur Miller's
grandfather Samuel MILLER were sibs. There were various other snippets that
added credence to this. Also another brother Mark aybe Mordechai.
Recently I learned that Rebecca SHERMAN was indeed born Rebecca MALER.
I have managed to trace her family and my greatgrandfather's families I
*believe* to a little place called VANDZIOGALA in Lithuania.
I could clinch this if only I could find out Rebecca's and Samuel's father's
name. Rebecca's death certificate does not reveal the secret.
Can anyone tell me where Samuel MILLER is buried or when he died. Or
when/where he was born. Basically I really need his *father's name*.
His wife's name was Augusta (Gussie maybe?).
I have tried the obvious which is to write to Arthur Miller, but he did not
reply. I have no idea how to reach his sister Joan Copeland.
I have read Arthur's biographical book twice over.The answer is not there.
Hoping hard,
Thanks you
Ros Romem
Jerusalem


19th Century Geography #hungary

Pamela Weisberger <pweisberger@...>
 

Regarding Sam Schleman's inquiry relating to his grandparents' 1870
marriage:

"Is it at all likely that someone >from the Kosice area would meet and marry
someone >from Szabolcs County, which would require going across the
apparently mountainous terrain of Zemplen?"

In the past I would have been skeptical about the likelihood of these
longer-distance unions, but when I located my great-grandparents in the 1869
Zemplen County census, living in Nagy Tarkany (today, Velky Trakany,
Slovakia) north of Kosice, I was surprised to see my ggfather's town of
birth listed as Ungvar (Uzhgorod, Ukraine today), which was in Ung County,
and my ggmother's birth town as Gyure, in Szablocs County. I also found
that their first two children were born in the late 1850s in Eor, which is
also in Szablocs County, but much further south than Gyure, where they
probably were married

Although today these various towns are all within an hour's drive of each
other (albeit in three different countries) the traveling distances were
fairly monumental if done by horse and carriage in the 1850s when this
couple were probably married. The only conclusion to be drawn is that yes,
either due to the strength and inter-relationship of various synagogues or
communities in these three neighboring counties, a fair degree of
matchingmaking or networking (to use a more current term) between the Jews
of that era, did occur.

Having traveled these roads two years ago, the terrain in this area is not
as mountainous as you might think, once one gets to Uzghorod and heads south
or south-west, so perhaps the roads were not that difficult to travel even
in the late 19th century. As an exmple, I recall my grandmother (born in
1896 in Szabolcs county) remembering her carriage drives to visit her
grandfather in Tiszaszalka, in Bereg County, crossing the Tisza river.
Today this drive would take a good half hour by car, so even considering the
difficulty at the turn of the century, it was still considered do-able.

I should add that due to an almost twenty-year difference in my
great-grandparents' ages, I must consider the possibility that my ggfather
had been previously married and possibly had already lived in Gyure when his
first wife died, and he subsequently met my ggmother while already living in
that town:
another explanation of how matches might have been made. Without the luck
of finding them in that census, however, I'm not sure how I would have put
these puzzle pieces together! All this means for you, however, is that, yes,
you probably need to consider a broader search in finding the towns of
origin for you relatives...or, at least, don't rule out any possiblities.

Best of luck!

Pamela Weisberger
Santa Monica, CA

pweisberger@hotmail.com


Hungary SIG #Hungary 19th Century Geography #hungary

Pamela Weisberger <pweisberger@...>
 

Regarding Sam Schleman's inquiry relating to his grandparents' 1870
marriage:

"Is it at all likely that someone >from the Kosice area would meet and marry
someone >from Szabolcs County, which would require going across the
apparently mountainous terrain of Zemplen?"

In the past I would have been skeptical about the likelihood of these
longer-distance unions, but when I located my great-grandparents in the 1869
Zemplen County census, living in Nagy Tarkany (today, Velky Trakany,
Slovakia) north of Kosice, I was surprised to see my ggfather's town of
birth listed as Ungvar (Uzhgorod, Ukraine today), which was in Ung County,
and my ggmother's birth town as Gyure, in Szablocs County. I also found
that their first two children were born in the late 1850s in Eor, which is
also in Szablocs County, but much further south than Gyure, where they
probably were married

Although today these various towns are all within an hour's drive of each
other (albeit in three different countries) the traveling distances were
fairly monumental if done by horse and carriage in the 1850s when this
couple were probably married. The only conclusion to be drawn is that yes,
either due to the strength and inter-relationship of various synagogues or
communities in these three neighboring counties, a fair degree of
matchingmaking or networking (to use a more current term) between the Jews
of that era, did occur.

Having traveled these roads two years ago, the terrain in this area is not
as mountainous as you might think, once one gets to Uzghorod and heads south
or south-west, so perhaps the roads were not that difficult to travel even
in the late 19th century. As an exmple, I recall my grandmother (born in
1896 in Szabolcs county) remembering her carriage drives to visit her
grandfather in Tiszaszalka, in Bereg County, crossing the Tisza river.
Today this drive would take a good half hour by car, so even considering the
difficulty at the turn of the century, it was still considered do-able.

I should add that due to an almost twenty-year difference in my
great-grandparents' ages, I must consider the possibility that my ggfather
had been previously married and possibly had already lived in Gyure when his
first wife died, and he subsequently met my ggmother while already living in
that town:
another explanation of how matches might have been made. Without the luck
of finding them in that census, however, I'm not sure how I would have put
these puzzle pieces together! All this means for you, however, is that, yes,
you probably need to consider a broader search in finding the towns of
origin for you relatives...or, at least, don't rule out any possiblities.

Best of luck!

Pamela Weisberger
Santa Monica, CA

pweisberger@hotmail.com


Re: Name change--research tool #hungary

Lynn Saul <lynnsaul@...>
 

When I was in Satorauljhely reviewing BMD records in the city hall archives
there, we noted that in many cases notations were made in the person's
record (they would start with birth and record additional information on the
same line, later) as to name change. Hard to index, but we noted several
potential family members to whom this applied.
Lynn Saul

----- Original Message -----
From: "alex p miller" <alex.miller@juno.com>
To: "H-SIG" <h-sig@lyris.jewishgen.org>
Sent: Tuesday, January 06, 2004 6:35 AM
Subject: [h-sig] Name change--research tool


Around 1908 a register was published by the Hungarian Government that
listed all the changes in last names of individuals(I don't know the
exact time frame, but certainly includes the bulk of the changes which
occurred late 19th century)

It is typed and lists the old/new names, occupation, places of
residence/birth, year of birth, religion and a certificate number. It is
sorted by the old name. It may be on LDS microfilm.

In my case there was one ambitious family member who became a pharmacist,
changed his name and moved to a very unlikely location. Without this
register it would've been impossible to race him.

Is anyone familiar with this register or has some idea how to avail it to
Hsig as a generic research tool?
Best Regards,

Alex Miller
alex.miller@ juno.com

Moderator VK: Good news! We have a database that will soon be submitted
that includes names found in an 1895 book reporting name changes. The title
of the book, which was found in the non-circulating book room of the
Szechenyi Hungarian National Library is Szasadunk Nevvaltoztatasai
1800-1893. The author was Zoltan Szentivanyi, according to Janos Bogardi's
Radix website. He has used this book to create a variety of surname
databases that don't include info on the original names. I don't know if the
book has been filmed by the FHL.


Hungary SIG #Hungary Re: Name change--research tool #hungary

Lynn Saul <lynnsaul@...>
 

When I was in Satorauljhely reviewing BMD records in the city hall archives
there, we noted that in many cases notations were made in the person's
record (they would start with birth and record additional information on the
same line, later) as to name change. Hard to index, but we noted several
potential family members to whom this applied.
Lynn Saul

----- Original Message -----
From: "alex p miller" <alex.miller@juno.com>
To: "H-SIG" <h-sig@lyris.jewishgen.org>
Sent: Tuesday, January 06, 2004 6:35 AM
Subject: [h-sig] Name change--research tool


Around 1908 a register was published by the Hungarian Government that
listed all the changes in last names of individuals(I don't know the
exact time frame, but certainly includes the bulk of the changes which
occurred late 19th century)

It is typed and lists the old/new names, occupation, places of
residence/birth, year of birth, religion and a certificate number. It is
sorted by the old name. It may be on LDS microfilm.

In my case there was one ambitious family member who became a pharmacist,
changed his name and moved to a very unlikely location. Without this
register it would've been impossible to race him.

Is anyone familiar with this register or has some idea how to avail it to
Hsig as a generic research tool?
Best Regards,

Alex Miller
alex.miller@ juno.com

Moderator VK: Good news! We have a database that will soon be submitted
that includes names found in an 1895 book reporting name changes. The title
of the book, which was found in the non-circulating book room of the
Szechenyi Hungarian National Library is Szasadunk Nevvaltoztatasai
1800-1893. The author was Zoltan Szentivanyi, according to Janos Bogardi's
Radix website. He has used this book to create a variety of surname
databases that don't include info on the original names. I don't know if the
book has been filmed by the FHL.


Re: 19th Century Geography #hungary

Robert Neu
 

Don't underestimate people ability to travel in the 19th Century. My
grandfather lived in Nagykanizsa - near the southern border of Hungary
and my grandmother was >from "Eger" half way to the Eastern border
towards Miskolc. They were married in 1898. Matchmaker, matchmaker...
Robert Neu
--- Sam Schleman <Samara99@comcast.net> wrote:

Dear Genners.

I have never been able to determine the town >from which my maternal
GGP's
came from. None of their US-based records are any more specific than
"Hungarica". However, I have been able to determine that my
Great-grandfather's sister married someone >from what was Nagy Ida,
which is
now Velka Ida and which is now in Slovakia. It is located about 10
miles
south of Kosice.

The marriage took place around 1870. Given the transportation modes
and
limitations of the time, I am trying to determine the likely area
that
someone >from Velka Ida would meet someone and form enough of a
relationship
to result in marriage. For example, is it at all likely that someone
from
the Kosice area would meet and marry someone >from Szabolcs County,
which
would require going across the apparently mountainous terrain of
Zemplen?

I realize that this speculation will not locate my GGP's home town.
That
will require research. What I am attempting to do is focus my
research in
those areas that have the highest probability of success.

I would appreciate any suggestions and help that you can provide.

Thanks.

Sam Schleman
Malvern, PA
Samara99@comcast.net


Re: Austro-Hungarian Passports #hungary

marcplot <marcplot@...>
 

Message text written by "H-SIG"
LDS films which list AustroHungarian passports. The
films are chronlogical and include all religions.<

Do you have a URL to the listing of these films?

Thanks.

Marc Weiss
NYC