Date   

Re: Test Results #dna

Pam Weston <pweston@...>
 

Thank you all for the explanations. It was great that you shamed me
into really understanding this stuff. When I first got the results
on my Dad's mtDNA and Y-DNA test, I just put it aside because
understanding it was so daunting. Like learning a new language.

It's really complex and I don't claim to understand at an expert
level but at lest now I can understand the questions!

Pam Weston
Chicago.
Researching WEINSTEIN, PRICZEPA, POLTERACH BART, BARTH, KAWALER,
KREINDLER,DOLINGER


DNA Research #DNA Re: Test Results #dna

Pam Weston <pweston@...>
 

Thank you all for the explanations. It was great that you shamed me
into really understanding this stuff. When I first got the results
on my Dad's mtDNA and Y-DNA test, I just put it aside because
understanding it was so daunting. Like learning a new language.

It's really complex and I don't claim to understand at an expert
level but at lest now I can understand the questions!

Pam Weston
Chicago.
Researching WEINSTEIN, PRICZEPA, POLTERACH BART, BARTH, KAWALER,
KREINDLER,DOLINGER


Town search in Galicia or German Speaking Poland #galicia

Joe Poras <joe@...>
 

Hi All.

The Ellis Island Spelling (1912) of my grandfather's town of residence
is KURENOUS, AUSTRIA.
This is probably a phonetic interpretation by the registrar at Ellis Island.
His wedding certificate in NYC dated (1915) shows birthplace as
KURAWUS, ASTRIA This is hand written by my grandfather who probably
was not a good speller! He was fluent in GERMAN.

My Grandmother, on the wedding certificate reads, JASINSKI, AUSTRIA

Please I need help, If anyone knows these towns please write me
privately at joe.poras@gmail.com.

Your help is Appreciated.

Joe Poras
joe.poras@gmail.com

Researching GOLDNER, FEILER, FISCHER, LEBI??N >from the above places

Moderator Note: Please remember to add your name, town/state or
country/email address at the end of each message.


Gesher Galicia SIG #Galicia Town search in Galicia or German Speaking Poland #galicia

Joe Poras <joe@...>
 

Hi All.

The Ellis Island Spelling (1912) of my grandfather's town of residence
is KURENOUS, AUSTRIA.
This is probably a phonetic interpretation by the registrar at Ellis Island.
His wedding certificate in NYC dated (1915) shows birthplace as
KURAWUS, ASTRIA This is hand written by my grandfather who probably
was not a good speller! He was fluent in GERMAN.

My Grandmother, on the wedding certificate reads, JASINSKI, AUSTRIA

Please I need help, If anyone knows these towns please write me
privately at joe.poras@gmail.com.

Your help is Appreciated.

Joe Poras
joe.poras@gmail.com

Researching GOLDNER, FEILER, FISCHER, LEBI??N >from the above places

Moderator Note: Please remember to add your name, town/state or
country/email address at the end of each message.


Vienna cemetery in the Rossau = Seegasse Friedhof, Vienna IX. #austria-czech

Celia Male <celiamale@...>
 

re my posting entitled <Is "Isserlein to Israel" as
"Schando is to Alexander"?> I mentioned that I had not
located the site of the grave of ISSERLEIN who died,
most probably in Wiener Neustadt in 1460.
Incidentally, I made a typing error and his date of
birth was 1390-1400 obviously not 1490-1500! .

David Laufer [Sydney, NSW] wrote today in reply to my
posting: .. there is a description of the expulsion of
the [Viennese] Jews in 1670, including the statement
"The cemetery in the Rossau was protected by the
city in consideration of the sum of 4,000 florins; "
Could it be that ISSERLEIN's grave is in the Rossau
cemetery, wherever that is ?

David; this cemetery is commonly called the Seegasse
Friedhof;
see: http://www.wien.gv.at/ma42/parks/see.htm

Many of you will have heard of the Jewish Old Age Home
at Seegasse, Vienna 9th District.

The German says: the cemetery opened at the start of
the 14th century - the oldest maintained Jewish
cemetery in Vienna which remained unchanged till 1943.
At the end of WW2, 280 of the original 931 headstones
were re-erected. An atmospheric/meaningful jewel in
the heavily built-up 9 District. Access is through the
Old Age Home. The cemetery is under the control of the
IKG [Israelitische Kultusgemeinde].

I am ashamed to say that I have never visited the
cemetery but have a book describing it. There is no mention
of a grave of the famous scholar ISSERLEIN but there are
other graves of interest inscribed with the name
*ISSERL* [see below]:

Das steinerne Archiv - Der alte Judenfriedhof in der
Rossau by Traude Veran, Mandelbaum 2002 ISBN
3-85476-057-4

The book includes a listing of the surviving graves.
To give you a tantalising taster:

Salomo Abraham b Jakob DUSCHENES ha Levi HOROWITZ:
died 31 Dec 1757, visitor >from Prague [famous family]
aged 40.

Fogle - wife of Chajjim RASPITZ [>from Moravia], died
29.Oct 1638

Menahem Manesh SHIK b Abraham died 18 Oct 1610.
Stammvater of the SHIK family >from Prague where he was
a leading member of the Prague Jewish Community for 40
years; died in Vienna on his way to Palestine.

Unknown - but may be the part of the headstone of
Abraham b Josef Lob HART >from Trebitsch/Trebic aged 22
who worked with LEIDESDORF in Vienna - died 26 Aug.
1736. [I have not found HART or HARTOVA on the IGI].

Finally returning to our original topic, how about
this re ISSERLEIN: [and further confirmation re the
name]:

Isserl - date of death unknown - a 6 year old child
who wandered in Mischna and Gemara [Talmud]

Israel ISSERL b Zacharia >from Eisenstadt - died 16
April 1640.
His father was a Martyr. Family details given

Krondl daughter of Isserl BACHUR >from Frankfurt am
Main; wife of Simeon Auerbach died between 1620-1630.

I can find no diminutive *ISSERLEIN* in the surviving
headstones.

Bernard WACHSTEIN was instrumental in translating and
transcribing the tombstone inscription and published a
book [in German]: Judenfriedhofes in Wien 1540-1670,
1696- 1785 Two Volumes
Description: 1912, First Edition. Folio - over 12" -
15" tall. Stones and inscriptions of ancient Jewish
Community of Vienna.

We, on the Austria-Czech SIG, have hardly ever touched
on this vast genealogical source on the very early
families/graves in Vienna.

Celia Male [U.K.]


IGI and posthumous baptisms #austria-czech

Georgia Haken <gwhaken@...>
 

Dear Group,
I have read with interest the postings of Celia and Carol. It seems
that about ten years ago I discovered my husband's great grandmother
on the IGI for Germany along with the date of her proxy baptism done
by someone who extracted this info >from the Eichtersheim, Baden
Jewish births. At that time I was aware that there was a very active
program for proxy baptisms because I heard the discussions about it
at the local FHC. Sometime after the protests >from the Jewish
community, the dates on the baptism disappeared >from the IGI. I
remembering asking a member of the LDS Church whether they could
reverse a proxy baptism and was told there was no way to do this
besides it was unnecessary as Greatgrandma in heaven could refuse
it. I believe that there is no way of knowing whether there was a
proxy baptism or not with what is available on line presently.

Georgia Haken


Austria-Czech SIG #Austria-Czech Vienna cemetery in the Rossau = Seegasse Friedhof, Vienna IX. #austria-czech

Celia Male <celiamale@...>
 

re my posting entitled <Is "Isserlein to Israel" as
"Schando is to Alexander"?> I mentioned that I had not
located the site of the grave of ISSERLEIN who died,
most probably in Wiener Neustadt in 1460.
Incidentally, I made a typing error and his date of
birth was 1390-1400 obviously not 1490-1500! .

David Laufer [Sydney, NSW] wrote today in reply to my
posting: .. there is a description of the expulsion of
the [Viennese] Jews in 1670, including the statement
"The cemetery in the Rossau was protected by the
city in consideration of the sum of 4,000 florins; "
Could it be that ISSERLEIN's grave is in the Rossau
cemetery, wherever that is ?

David; this cemetery is commonly called the Seegasse
Friedhof;
see: http://www.wien.gv.at/ma42/parks/see.htm

Many of you will have heard of the Jewish Old Age Home
at Seegasse, Vienna 9th District.

The German says: the cemetery opened at the start of
the 14th century - the oldest maintained Jewish
cemetery in Vienna which remained unchanged till 1943.
At the end of WW2, 280 of the original 931 headstones
were re-erected. An atmospheric/meaningful jewel in
the heavily built-up 9 District. Access is through the
Old Age Home. The cemetery is under the control of the
IKG [Israelitische Kultusgemeinde].

I am ashamed to say that I have never visited the
cemetery but have a book describing it. There is no mention
of a grave of the famous scholar ISSERLEIN but there are
other graves of interest inscribed with the name
*ISSERL* [see below]:

Das steinerne Archiv - Der alte Judenfriedhof in der
Rossau by Traude Veran, Mandelbaum 2002 ISBN
3-85476-057-4

The book includes a listing of the surviving graves.
To give you a tantalising taster:

Salomo Abraham b Jakob DUSCHENES ha Levi HOROWITZ:
died 31 Dec 1757, visitor >from Prague [famous family]
aged 40.

Fogle - wife of Chajjim RASPITZ [>from Moravia], died
29.Oct 1638

Menahem Manesh SHIK b Abraham died 18 Oct 1610.
Stammvater of the SHIK family >from Prague where he was
a leading member of the Prague Jewish Community for 40
years; died in Vienna on his way to Palestine.

Unknown - but may be the part of the headstone of
Abraham b Josef Lob HART >from Trebitsch/Trebic aged 22
who worked with LEIDESDORF in Vienna - died 26 Aug.
1736. [I have not found HART or HARTOVA on the IGI].

Finally returning to our original topic, how about
this re ISSERLEIN: [and further confirmation re the
name]:

Isserl - date of death unknown - a 6 year old child
who wandered in Mischna and Gemara [Talmud]

Israel ISSERL b Zacharia >from Eisenstadt - died 16
April 1640.
His father was a Martyr. Family details given

Krondl daughter of Isserl BACHUR >from Frankfurt am
Main; wife of Simeon Auerbach died between 1620-1630.

I can find no diminutive *ISSERLEIN* in the surviving
headstones.

Bernard WACHSTEIN was instrumental in translating and
transcribing the tombstone inscription and published a
book [in German]: Judenfriedhofes in Wien 1540-1670,
1696- 1785 Two Volumes
Description: 1912, First Edition. Folio - over 12" -
15" tall. Stones and inscriptions of ancient Jewish
Community of Vienna.

We, on the Austria-Czech SIG, have hardly ever touched
on this vast genealogical source on the very early
families/graves in Vienna.

Celia Male [U.K.]


Austria-Czech SIG #Austria-Czech IGI and posthumous baptisms #austria-czech

Georgia Haken <gwhaken@...>
 

Dear Group,
I have read with interest the postings of Celia and Carol. It seems
that about ten years ago I discovered my husband's great grandmother
on the IGI for Germany along with the date of her proxy baptism done
by someone who extracted this info >from the Eichtersheim, Baden
Jewish births. At that time I was aware that there was a very active
program for proxy baptisms because I heard the discussions about it
at the local FHC. Sometime after the protests >from the Jewish
community, the dates on the baptism disappeared >from the IGI. I
remembering asking a member of the LDS Church whether they could
reverse a proxy baptism and was told there was no way to do this
besides it was unnecessary as Greatgrandma in heaven could refuse
it. I believe that there is no way of knowing whether there was a
proxy baptism or not with what is available on line presently.

Georgia Haken


Re: correction on misinformation re: Trebic records in the IGI #austria-czech

Celia Male <celiamale@...>
 

I wrote to the SIG few days ago: in my search for
Trebitsch records I by chance discovered many
disturbing and distasteful posthumously converted
holocaust victims: This is an example:

Erika ABELES (AFN: 1F1S-5VK)
Sex: F
Event(s): Birth: Abt. 1902
<Nazis, Poland>

Parents: Father: Heinrich ABELES (AFN: 1F1S-5PJ)
Mother: Rosa MERZBACH (AFN: 1F1S-5QQ)

Thank you so much Carol for pointing out that the
entries in the ancestral files [as given above] are
not posthumous baptisms but *voluntarily submitted*
family trees. Another member of our SIG, who wishes to
remain anonymous, has also pointed this out to me.

Baptism of any form is not my *forte* or my interest
and I was following the trail that was suggested in
the two recent postings by Gary Mokotoff and Sallyann
Amdur Sack, Editor of Avotaynu, the International
Review of Jewish Genealogy. I have not yet had a
chance to read the article in the latest issue
relating to this subject, and obviously had not done
my homework properly.

Had I submitted this data to the LDS, I doubt I would
use the term "Nazis, Poland" in my family tree file,
but would rather use Holocaust death, Poland. This is
what made me suspicious.

So I will stick to the things I know best and not be
put off by this setback. I followed the MERZBACH trail
to its ultimate conclusion, using the method suggested
by Art Spira today.

I entered the ancestral file number for Rosa MERZBACH
and believe it or not: the first member of the family
was called: Sender ALEXANDER (AFN: 1F1S-7SH) born ca
1710 in ?

How's that for a happy ending [if you have followed
the Schando/ Alexander name query discussion]!

Celia Male [U.K.]


Austria-Czech SIG #Austria-Czech Re: correction on misinformation re: Trebic records in the IGI #austria-czech

Celia Male <celiamale@...>
 

I wrote to the SIG few days ago: in my search for
Trebitsch records I by chance discovered many
disturbing and distasteful posthumously converted
holocaust victims: This is an example:

Erika ABELES (AFN: 1F1S-5VK)
Sex: F
Event(s): Birth: Abt. 1902
<Nazis, Poland>

Parents: Father: Heinrich ABELES (AFN: 1F1S-5PJ)
Mother: Rosa MERZBACH (AFN: 1F1S-5QQ)

Thank you so much Carol for pointing out that the
entries in the ancestral files [as given above] are
not posthumous baptisms but *voluntarily submitted*
family trees. Another member of our SIG, who wishes to
remain anonymous, has also pointed this out to me.

Baptism of any form is not my *forte* or my interest
and I was following the trail that was suggested in
the two recent postings by Gary Mokotoff and Sallyann
Amdur Sack, Editor of Avotaynu, the International
Review of Jewish Genealogy. I have not yet had a
chance to read the article in the latest issue
relating to this subject, and obviously had not done
my homework properly.

Had I submitted this data to the LDS, I doubt I would
use the term "Nazis, Poland" in my family tree file,
but would rather use Holocaust death, Poland. This is
what made me suspicious.

So I will stick to the things I know best and not be
put off by this setback. I followed the MERZBACH trail
to its ultimate conclusion, using the method suggested
by Art Spira today.

I entered the ancestral file number for Rosa MERZBACH
and believe it or not: the first member of the family
was called: Sender ALEXANDER (AFN: 1F1S-7SH) born ca
1710 in ?

How's that for a happy ending [if you have followed
the Schando/ Alexander name query discussion]!

Celia Male [U.K.]


Gravesend Jewish community #unitedkingdom

Peter and Mary Blundell <theblundells@...>
 

Dear siggers,

Lois Kaufman wrote;-
Does anyone know anything about this school, or a Jewish community in this
area at this time?

I am inc. a letter in response to my own enquiry to the Gravesend, Kent
library.

Thank you for your enquiry regarding the Jewish community in Gravesend
1850-1900.
There was quite a sizeable community in the town at this time, with at least
2 schools for the Jewish community and two Mayors were of Jewish origin
(Berkowitz in 1887 and H.E Davis who was Mayor 6 times between 1902 and
1923). I believe there is section in the Gravesend cemetery reserved for
those of the Jewish faith.

On further enquiry the nearest Jewish cemetery is Chatham.
I would be interested in the address for the Jewish school as my own
relatives lived at Milton.

regards,
Mary Blundell
Australia


JCR-UK SIG #UnitedKingdom Gravesend Jewish community #unitedkingdom

Peter and Mary Blundell <theblundells@...>
 

Dear siggers,

Lois Kaufman wrote;-
Does anyone know anything about this school, or a Jewish community in this
area at this time?

I am inc. a letter in response to my own enquiry to the Gravesend, Kent
library.

Thank you for your enquiry regarding the Jewish community in Gravesend
1850-1900.
There was quite a sizeable community in the town at this time, with at least
2 schools for the Jewish community and two Mayors were of Jewish origin
(Berkowitz in 1887 and H.E Davis who was Mayor 6 times between 1902 and
1923). I believe there is section in the Gravesend cemetery reserved for
those of the Jewish faith.

On further enquiry the nearest Jewish cemetery is Chatham.
I would be interested in the address for the Jewish school as my own
relatives lived at Milton.

regards,
Mary Blundell
Australia


GUTMANN/SCHWAB AUGSBURG(?) to LONDON #unitedkingdom

Adam Yamey <adamandlopa@...>
 

Ida GUTMANN, a distant cousin of mine, was born in
Augsburg in 1883, daughter of Moritz GUTMANN, a
leather merchant who was born 1851 in Hainsfarth, and
Jette ROSENFELS (my distant relative). Ida married
Isaac SCHWAB in 1906, in Germany. Recently, I have
been told that, in 1948, Ida SCHWAB lived in Belsize
Grove, London, NW3.
According to my family tree Ida had a daughter
Hildegarde.

I would very much like to know more about this branch
of my mother’s family. If anyone can supply me with
any information, please do contact me.

I am also interested in any information about this
particular GUTMANN family [Ida had 2 brothers: Leopold
(born 1888) and Sigmund (born 1886)].

Adam Yamey, London, UK <adamandlopa@yahoo.co.uk >


School at Gravesend #unitedkingdom

The Lockyers <keira@...>
 

Tivoli House was a private boarding school at 91 Windmill Street, Milton,
Gravesend.

In 1901 the Headmaster was Isidore B. Berkowitz, 39, born abt. 1862 in
Gravesend, the son of Henry Berkowitz the former headmaster.

Also there teaching were his sister Hannah, 33, (born abt 1868 in Gravesend)
and a Moses Hochbaum born c1872, the son of Isaac Hochbaum, a Polish born
Tailor and his German wife Mina.

I have a number of documents dated 1910 relating to the school and the
teachers and some of them include comments by masters about a number of
pupils who were there.

I am happy to share the information with anyone trying to find out about the
school at that time.

Keira Lockyer, Australia, keira@netcon.net.au

____________________________________________________________________________


JCR-UK SIG #UnitedKingdom GUTMANN/SCHWAB AUGSBURG(?) to LONDON #unitedkingdom

Adam Yamey <adamandlopa@...>
 

Ida GUTMANN, a distant cousin of mine, was born in
Augsburg in 1883, daughter of Moritz GUTMANN, a
leather merchant who was born 1851 in Hainsfarth, and
Jette ROSENFELS (my distant relative). Ida married
Isaac SCHWAB in 1906, in Germany. Recently, I have
been told that, in 1948, Ida SCHWAB lived in Belsize
Grove, London, NW3.
According to my family tree Ida had a daughter
Hildegarde.

I would very much like to know more about this branch
of my mother’s family. If anyone can supply me with
any information, please do contact me.

I am also interested in any information about this
particular GUTMANN family [Ida had 2 brothers: Leopold
(born 1888) and Sigmund (born 1886)].

Adam Yamey, London, UK <adamandlopa@yahoo.co.uk >


JCR-UK SIG #UnitedKingdom School at Gravesend #unitedkingdom

The Lockyers <keira@...>
 

Tivoli House was a private boarding school at 91 Windmill Street, Milton,
Gravesend.

In 1901 the Headmaster was Isidore B. Berkowitz, 39, born abt. 1862 in
Gravesend, the son of Henry Berkowitz the former headmaster.

Also there teaching were his sister Hannah, 33, (born abt 1868 in Gravesend)
and a Moses Hochbaum born c1872, the son of Isaac Hochbaum, a Polish born
Tailor and his German wife Mina.

I have a number of documents dated 1910 relating to the school and the
teachers and some of them include comments by masters about a number of
pupils who were there.

I am happy to share the information with anyone trying to find out about the
school at that time.

Keira Lockyer, Australia, keira@netcon.net.au

____________________________________________________________________________


Where are our Ukrainian ancestors previously from? #ukraine

Roy Mankovitz <roy@...>
 

My grandmother (father's mother) and her parents and grandparents (FAGIN,
SHOTKIN) appear to have been born and raised in Rzhishchev, south of Kyyiv,
beginning early 1800s. >from what little I can gather of family history, my
great-great-grandparents did not speak Russian or Ukrainian, only
Yiddish. They were tailors and musicians, and apparently could get by just
communicating with their fellow shtetlites. So, it raises the question of
whether my family ever considered the Ukraine as their homeland, or simply
one of a long list of places the Jews were displaced to (they moved on to
Zvenigorodka, Rzhishchev, Yevpatoriya, Simferopol' and Odesa, then the US
in 1905). If so, what are the "real" origins of my family and perhaps
those of many fellow Ukrainian Jews. Trying to find out the true origins
of the Yiddish language(s) is also a frustrating experience. I wonder if
any fellow genners have looked into research tools (if there are any) to
see what lay before the Ukraine for our ancestors.

Roy Mankovitz
Montecito, California


Ukraine SIG #Ukraine Where are our Ukrainian ancestors previously from? #ukraine

Roy Mankovitz <roy@...>
 

My grandmother (father's mother) and her parents and grandparents (FAGIN,
SHOTKIN) appear to have been born and raised in Rzhishchev, south of Kyyiv,
beginning early 1800s. >from what little I can gather of family history, my
great-great-grandparents did not speak Russian or Ukrainian, only
Yiddish. They were tailors and musicians, and apparently could get by just
communicating with their fellow shtetlites. So, it raises the question of
whether my family ever considered the Ukraine as their homeland, or simply
one of a long list of places the Jews were displaced to (they moved on to
Zvenigorodka, Rzhishchev, Yevpatoriya, Simferopol' and Odesa, then the US
in 1905). If so, what are the "real" origins of my family and perhaps
those of many fellow Ukrainian Jews. Trying to find out the true origins
of the Yiddish language(s) is also a frustrating experience. I wonder if
any fellow genners have looked into research tools (if there are any) to
see what lay before the Ukraine for our ancestors.

Roy Mankovitz
Montecito, California


Feiler and Wirthsafter/Wirtschafte Families #general

ffrf0509 <ffrf0509@...>
 

I am new to the "art" family ancestry search and would appreciate replies
from anyone having knowledge of the following families:
FEILER---living in or around Cracow, Austria in the mid-1800s and/or
emigrated to the U.S. in the 1880-1900 period.

WIRTHSAFTER or WIRTSCHAFTER---living in or around Saraljaujhely in the
mid-1800s and or emigrated to the U.S. in the 1880-1900 period.

Thank you.

Frank W. Feiler

MODERATOR NOTE: Please enter your searches in the JewishGen Family
Finder (JGFF) at http://www.jewishgen.org/jgff/. This will greatly improve
your chances of finding a match. There is currently one listing for FEILER
in Krakow.


JewishGen Discussion Group #JewishGen Feiler and Wirthsafter/Wirtschafte Families #general

ffrf0509 <ffrf0509@...>
 

I am new to the "art" family ancestry search and would appreciate replies
from anyone having knowledge of the following families:
FEILER---living in or around Cracow, Austria in the mid-1800s and/or
emigrated to the U.S. in the 1880-1900 period.

WIRTHSAFTER or WIRTSCHAFTER---living in or around Saraljaujhely in the
mid-1800s and or emigrated to the U.S. in the 1880-1900 period.

Thank you.

Frank W. Feiler

MODERATOR NOTE: Please enter your searches in the JewishGen Family
Finder (JGFF) at http://www.jewishgen.org/jgff/. This will greatly improve
your chances of finding a match. There is currently one listing for FEILER
in Krakow.