Date   

INTRO - View Mate Photo and Name Question WENDEL #germany

Michael Wendel <mwendel@...>
 

Hi All,
Since I have joined the JewishGen site and mailing list I have been learning
a lot and I have gotten some excellent help because I just missed some good
resource sites on Google.

In addition, I have been able to help a few people here and there.'

But I am still a bit stumped on the issue of where the WENDEL family
originated >from in Germany.

I posted a photo, a semi-decent scan of an old tin type, on view mate -
http://data.jewishgen.org/viewmate/ALL/viewmateview.asp?key=6228
- that probably dates back to the mid 1800s - I am hoping someone might have seen
this photo before or at least give me a ballpark time range based upon the
clothes they are wearing.

In addition here is what I know about the WENDEL family >from their arrival
in the United States going backwards to Germany:

1. Emanuel WENDEL - based upon his death certificate and census records he
immigrated to the United States (New York) in 1864. I believe his birth
date was 22 Mar 1830 somewhere in Germany. His tombstone unfortunately did
not yield a birth date. I can't recall if the date give was based upon a
calculation or obtained >from a source document - I have copies of everything
to its not too hard to find out. He arrived with his wife Babetta LEVY, who
according to her tombstone was born May 28, 1835 in Thalfang, Germany.
Based upon conjecture and speculation, their marriage took place prior to
1857. Because when they arrived in the United States they already had two
children Rosa (born August 1857) and Bertha (born December 1861).

2. Emanuel WENDEL's parents were Max WENDEL and Lena LEVY both >from Germany
based upon consistent responses to the birthplace of his parents in several
different documents.

The other question that comes to mind is - what else could the name WENDEL
have been prior to Emanuel's immigration to America? I know that it is
commonly misspelled as WENDLE, WENDELL, WENDALL, or WENDAL, but I am
beginning to thing that maybe its an altered name and that's why I'm hitting
a road block end here. Any help would be greatly appreciated. Regards,

Michael Wendel Kings Park, New York, USA mwendel@...

WENDEL (Germany), LEVY (Thalfang, Germany), SCHAAP, BARON (White Russia), KATZ


German SIG #Germany INTRO - View Mate Photo and Name Question WENDEL #germany

Michael Wendel <mwendel@...>
 

Hi All,
Since I have joined the JewishGen site and mailing list I have been learning
a lot and I have gotten some excellent help because I just missed some good
resource sites on Google.

In addition, I have been able to help a few people here and there.'

But I am still a bit stumped on the issue of where the WENDEL family
originated >from in Germany.

I posted a photo, a semi-decent scan of an old tin type, on view mate -
http://data.jewishgen.org/viewmate/ALL/viewmateview.asp?key=6228
- that probably dates back to the mid 1800s - I am hoping someone might have seen
this photo before or at least give me a ballpark time range based upon the
clothes they are wearing.

In addition here is what I know about the WENDEL family >from their arrival
in the United States going backwards to Germany:

1. Emanuel WENDEL - based upon his death certificate and census records he
immigrated to the United States (New York) in 1864. I believe his birth
date was 22 Mar 1830 somewhere in Germany. His tombstone unfortunately did
not yield a birth date. I can't recall if the date give was based upon a
calculation or obtained >from a source document - I have copies of everything
to its not too hard to find out. He arrived with his wife Babetta LEVY, who
according to her tombstone was born May 28, 1835 in Thalfang, Germany.
Based upon conjecture and speculation, their marriage took place prior to
1857. Because when they arrived in the United States they already had two
children Rosa (born August 1857) and Bertha (born December 1861).

2. Emanuel WENDEL's parents were Max WENDEL and Lena LEVY both >from Germany
based upon consistent responses to the birthplace of his parents in several
different documents.

The other question that comes to mind is - what else could the name WENDEL
have been prior to Emanuel's immigration to America? I know that it is
commonly misspelled as WENDLE, WENDELL, WENDALL, or WENDAL, but I am
beginning to thing that maybe its an altered name and that's why I'm hitting
a road block end here. Any help would be greatly appreciated. Regards,

Michael Wendel Kings Park, New York, USA mwendel@...

WENDEL (Germany), LEVY (Thalfang, Germany), SCHAAP, BARON (White Russia), KATZ


Re: Yiddish Versions/Lithuanian #lithuania

Kovitz, Sonia <Sonia.Kovitz@...>
 

Western and Eastern Yiddish (two dialects, not two languages) are both
at least two-thirds Germanic in vocabulary and structure. Steve is
right that there is more Slavic influence in Eastern Yiddish. Also
there are different pronunciations of words in common, for example:

"in Western Yiddish, buying meat is expressed as kafn flash, in the area
where the two dialects converge as koyfn flaysh, in Lithuanian Yiddish
as keyfn fleys and in Ukrainian Yiddish as koyfn fleysh. (J.
Baumgarten)"

Western Yiddish ceased being spoken as an active tongue in the 18th
century as a consequence of assimilation. Philologos, columnist in the
FORWARD, suggests Western Yiddish may be the source of some British
slang.

Finally, Steve uses the interesting word "kibosh" in his message below.
Its origin is Yiddish! (the following is by Brit Michael Quinion on
www.worldwidewords.org.)

"It derives >from Yiddish. This is the most popular explanation, though
the details differ. One supposition is that it comes >from the Yiddish
word Kabas or Kabbasten, "to suppress". Another view is much stranger,
saying that it is an acronym formed >from the initial letters of three
Yiddish words meaning 18 British coins: the Hebrew chai for 18 and
shekel, meaning coin, with British in the middle. But, as Leo Rosten
argues, that ought to make kibrosh rather than kibosh. He does say that
there was special significance in the number 18, since in gematria (an
important method of divination among Jews at one time), this was the
number equivalent of the word life. "

Sonia Kovitz (I know I'm off topic so I'll put the kibosh on further
commentary)

There are, in fact, two separate languages, Western Yiddish, with a
primarily Germanic vocabulary, and Eastern Yiddish, with a Slavic
vocabulary. The grammar is similar, though. I have not seen any
information as to where exactly the line was between the two
versions <..........> my father got wind of it and put the
kibosh on the whole affair
MODERATOR'S NOTE: Thanks, Sonia, for knowing that this message is
verging on the off-topic. It will not be the start -- or the
continuation -- of a thread on Yiddish. A listserv called Mendele
is the appropriate place for discussion about Yiddish.


Lithuania SIG #Lithuania RE: Yiddish Versions/Lithuanian #lithuania

Kovitz, Sonia <Sonia.Kovitz@...>
 

Western and Eastern Yiddish (two dialects, not two languages) are both
at least two-thirds Germanic in vocabulary and structure. Steve is
right that there is more Slavic influence in Eastern Yiddish. Also
there are different pronunciations of words in common, for example:

"in Western Yiddish, buying meat is expressed as kafn flash, in the area
where the two dialects converge as koyfn flaysh, in Lithuanian Yiddish
as keyfn fleys and in Ukrainian Yiddish as koyfn fleysh. (J.
Baumgarten)"

Western Yiddish ceased being spoken as an active tongue in the 18th
century as a consequence of assimilation. Philologos, columnist in the
FORWARD, suggests Western Yiddish may be the source of some British
slang.

Finally, Steve uses the interesting word "kibosh" in his message below.
Its origin is Yiddish! (the following is by Brit Michael Quinion on
www.worldwidewords.org.)

"It derives >from Yiddish. This is the most popular explanation, though
the details differ. One supposition is that it comes >from the Yiddish
word Kabas or Kabbasten, "to suppress". Another view is much stranger,
saying that it is an acronym formed >from the initial letters of three
Yiddish words meaning 18 British coins: the Hebrew chai for 18 and
shekel, meaning coin, with British in the middle. But, as Leo Rosten
argues, that ought to make kibrosh rather than kibosh. He does say that
there was special significance in the number 18, since in gematria (an
important method of divination among Jews at one time), this was the
number equivalent of the word life. "

Sonia Kovitz (I know I'm off topic so I'll put the kibosh on further
commentary)

There are, in fact, two separate languages, Western Yiddish, with a
primarily Germanic vocabulary, and Eastern Yiddish, with a Slavic
vocabulary. The grammar is similar, though. I have not seen any
information as to where exactly the line was between the two
versions <..........> my father got wind of it and put the
kibosh on the whole affair
MODERATOR'S NOTE: Thanks, Sonia, for knowing that this message is
verging on the off-topic. It will not be the start -- or the
continuation -- of a thread on Yiddish. A listserv called Mendele
is the appropriate place for discussion about Yiddish.


Re: LITHUANIAN VS. RUSSIAN VS. YIDDISH VS. HEBREW/ LANGUAGE #lithuania

Meri-Jane Rochelson <rochelso@...>
 

I'd like to thank Andi Ziegelman for her very detailed explanation of
language use, and will add just a few points >from my own family's
experience. In 1915 (exactly 90 years ago this week, in fact), the Jews
of Kovno were expelled because the government feared their (supposed)
close ties to Germany during WWI. Many fled to Russia, where they
stayed until after the revolution. My father was one of these and a
child at the time, so (I assume) he studied in schools where he learned
Russian. Then when he returned to Kovno, in 1921, he attended the
Russian gymnasium (high school), whose student body was predominantly
Jewish. By the time the Nazis invaded Kovno, he had a wife and child
and spoke Russian to them both; his son had a Russian name, though also
a Yiddish one, much like American Jewish children of my generation who
had both English and Yiddish names. My father knew Lithuanian but never
used it after the war (and I don't know how much before the war, either,
although he had a number of non-Jewish Lithuanian friends). He was very
bitter toward Lithuania, which had harbored many Nazi collaborators, and
his attitude toward the language was similar to that of many Jews toward
German in the 1950s and later.

As to Andi's comment about Jews surviving the Holocaust in Lithuania,
most of them did not. Those who survived did so after spending the war
years in Russia or in concentration camps. >from Kovno, the men went to
Dachau (and some, especially children, >from there to Auschwitz) and the
women were sent to Stutthof. My father survived Dachau, but his wife
and child were both killed.

A personal note to Andi: My mother's family, >from Vileika (specifically
Dolhinov), had cousins named Alperovitch. So we may be related.

All good wishes,
Meri-Jane Rochelson
Miami, FL


Lithuania SIG #Lithuania Re: LITHUANIAN VS. RUSSIAN VS. YIDDISH VS. HEBREW/ LANGUAGE #lithuania

Meri-Jane Rochelson <rochelso@...>
 

I'd like to thank Andi Ziegelman for her very detailed explanation of
language use, and will add just a few points >from my own family's
experience. In 1915 (exactly 90 years ago this week, in fact), the Jews
of Kovno were expelled because the government feared their (supposed)
close ties to Germany during WWI. Many fled to Russia, where they
stayed until after the revolution. My father was one of these and a
child at the time, so (I assume) he studied in schools where he learned
Russian. Then when he returned to Kovno, in 1921, he attended the
Russian gymnasium (high school), whose student body was predominantly
Jewish. By the time the Nazis invaded Kovno, he had a wife and child
and spoke Russian to them both; his son had a Russian name, though also
a Yiddish one, much like American Jewish children of my generation who
had both English and Yiddish names. My father knew Lithuanian but never
used it after the war (and I don't know how much before the war, either,
although he had a number of non-Jewish Lithuanian friends). He was very
bitter toward Lithuania, which had harbored many Nazi collaborators, and
his attitude toward the language was similar to that of many Jews toward
German in the 1950s and later.

As to Andi's comment about Jews surviving the Holocaust in Lithuania,
most of them did not. Those who survived did so after spending the war
years in Russia or in concentration camps. >from Kovno, the men went to
Dachau (and some, especially children, >from there to Auschwitz) and the
women were sent to Stutthof. My father survived Dachau, but his wife
and child were both killed.

A personal note to Andi: My mother's family, >from Vileika (specifically
Dolhinov), had cousins named Alperovitch. So we may be related.

All good wishes,
Meri-Jane Rochelson
Miami, FL


Re: Hebrew / Yiddish #lithuania

Kovitz, Sonia <Sonia.Kovitz@...>
 

Since your name, ALTER, means OTHER in Latin, you could have tried that
category, esp. since Jews are the eternal "others."

Sonia Kovitz

I emigrated to Canada >from the UK in the 1960's and on entry was
asked to state my ethnic group. I put down "Caucasian" and was told
this was not an acceptable category. I then wrote down white, to be
told this too was not acceptable. I professed I was stumped by the
question. The immigration officer on seeing that I was born
in England suggested I put down Anglo-Saxon. I can't, I said, I'm a
Jew. OK then, put down Hebrew. So I entered Canada as a Hebrew.

Alter Solomon


Lithuania SIG #Lithuania RE: Hebrew / Yiddish #lithuania

Kovitz, Sonia <Sonia.Kovitz@...>
 

Since your name, ALTER, means OTHER in Latin, you could have tried that
category, esp. since Jews are the eternal "others."

Sonia Kovitz

I emigrated to Canada >from the UK in the 1960's and on entry was
asked to state my ethnic group. I put down "Caucasian" and was told
this was not an acceptable category. I then wrote down white, to be
told this too was not acceptable. I professed I was stumped by the
question. The immigration officer on seeing that I was born
in England suggested I put down Anglo-Saxon. I can't, I said, I'm a
Jew. OK then, put down Hebrew. So I entered Canada as a Hebrew.

Alter Solomon


Re: STROMWASSEROWNA #general

Fbussgang@...
 

<< Does anyone know how I should interpret a surname of STROMWASSEROWNA? >>

It means simply "Miss Stromwasser." Stromwasserowa would be "Mrs.
Stromwasser."

Fay Bussgang
Lexington, MA


JRI Poland #Poland Re: STROMWASSEROWNA #poland

Fbussgang@...
 

<< Does anyone know how I should interpret a surname of STROMWASSEROWNA? >>

It means simply "Miss Stromwasser." Stromwasserowa would be "Mrs.
Stromwasser."

Fay Bussgang
Lexington, MA


Re: Reverend as Rabbi #rabbinic

Ida & Joseph Schwarcz
 

During the nineteenth century there were very few ordained rabbis in
the US. "The Frisco Kid" is pretty far off the mark. There were no
Polish yeshivot with as many students as depicted in the movie. Men
who had served in their European communities as shohetim and readers
of the Torah filled an important role. They traveled all over the US
to wherever there were Jewish communities and fulfilled the three
part role of shohet, mohel, and prayer leader. Since there was no
word in English to describe their profession they were given the
honorific of Reverend.

Ida Selavan Schwarcz
Arad, Israel


Rabbinic Genealogy SIG #Rabbinic Re: Reverend as Rabbi #rabbinic

Ida & Joseph Schwarcz
 

During the nineteenth century there were very few ordained rabbis in
the US. "The Frisco Kid" is pretty far off the mark. There were no
Polish yeshivot with as many students as depicted in the movie. Men
who had served in their European communities as shohetim and readers
of the Torah filled an important role. They traveled all over the US
to wherever there were Jewish communities and fulfilled the three
part role of shohet, mohel, and prayer leader. Since there was no
word in English to describe their profession they were given the
honorific of Reverend.

Ida Selavan Schwarcz
Arad, Israel


NEV VALTOZTATASOK - NAME CHANGES - PECS UNIVERSITY #hungary

B. Frederics <picturethisfilm@...>
 

Viviane,

You point out how to get to the letter "S" but I need C, Z, L, E, etc. =
Can
you please tell me how to find the initial page for the name change =
database
so I might search for these other letters?

Thanks.

Regards,
Bonnie Frederics
Tucson, AZ
picturethisfilm@...

At 09:08 AM 6/2/2005, VivianeCK2003@... wrote:
This resource is great - they have an entire section devoted to name
changes
here I have logged into "S"
http://kt.lib.pte.hu/konyvtar/kt04112203/0_0_2_pg_203.html
It is user friendly - press "elozo oldal" to go back
press "kovetkezo oldal" to go forward
It is really helpful with genealogy research as *so many* Hungarian =20
Jews changed their names.
Viviane Kluska
Canton, MI


archive material #hungary

SVass@...
 

http://kt.lib.pte.hu/konyvtar/kt04021801/index.html 1685 trip in English
http://kt.lib.pte.hu/konyvtar/kt04111901/index.html 1801 Latin dictionary
http://kt.lib.pte.hu/konyvtar/kt04112203/index.html 1800-1895 name changes
http://kt.lib.pte.hu/konyvtar/kt03110501/tartalom.html 1877 gazetteer

No Jewish names found in 1715 census in Trencsen Megye

Sam Vass, Kent, Washington, USA


Hungary SIG #Hungary NEV VALTOZTATASOK - NAME CHANGES - PECS UNIVERSITY #hungary

B. Frederics <picturethisfilm@...>
 

Viviane,

You point out how to get to the letter "S" but I need C, Z, L, E, etc. =
Can
you please tell me how to find the initial page for the name change =
database
so I might search for these other letters?

Thanks.

Regards,
Bonnie Frederics
Tucson, AZ
picturethisfilm@...

At 09:08 AM 6/2/2005, VivianeCK2003@... wrote:
This resource is great - they have an entire section devoted to name
changes
here I have logged into "S"
http://kt.lib.pte.hu/konyvtar/kt04112203/0_0_2_pg_203.html
It is user friendly - press "elozo oldal" to go back
press "kovetkezo oldal" to go forward
It is really helpful with genealogy research as *so many* Hungarian =20
Jews changed their names.
Viviane Kluska
Canton, MI


Hungary SIG #Hungary archive material #hungary

SVass@...
 

http://kt.lib.pte.hu/konyvtar/kt04021801/index.html 1685 trip in English
http://kt.lib.pte.hu/konyvtar/kt04111901/index.html 1801 Latin dictionary
http://kt.lib.pte.hu/konyvtar/kt04112203/index.html 1800-1895 name changes
http://kt.lib.pte.hu/konyvtar/kt03110501/tartalom.html 1877 gazetteer

No Jewish names found in 1715 census in Trencsen Megye

Sam Vass, Kent, Washington, USA


Re: Spharadim Jewes In Hungary #hungary

tom klein <h-sig@...>
 

without documentation, this is all speculative, but i think there were much closer sources for dark hair and olive skin than fifteenth century spain, namely the local gypsies. although it would certainly have made a more socially acceptable story...

but since you have a particularly unusual name to research, it should be possible to look for GESMAI in some of the records. for example, the sephardic forum on yahoo has lists of known sephardic names gleaned >from various sources. and the bevis marks synagogues has marriage records that might be helpful, especially if you are looking for an ABRABANEL wedding, which would certainly have been noted and easy enough to find!

best of luck,


...... tom klein, toronto

ps. with all due respect to your teachers at school, the ashkenazi community in europe did not "all come >from spain". that would imply that the ashkenazi communities started after the expulsion in 1492, which is incorrect. the communities in germany date back centuries before that. there was contact, and the exchange of ideas and persons, but the differences between the communities date back to long before the expulsion.

= ? windows-1255 ? B ? 4 un45e8 = ? = <nava105@...> wrote:

Vivian Kluska wrote the other day:"I grew up with the "myth" that my family
*must* have originated >from the
Sephardim because my grandfather had dark olive skin, black eyes and black
hair.
Further, my mother said our family had come to Hungary after the
explulsion
of Jews >from Spain. However, I have no supporting documents...so this
remains ...a "myth".....
Did anyone else grow up with a myth such a this?"

Well I grew up with the same story >from my mother's side of the Family:
The GESMAI family ( later wrote as GESMAY to make it more Hungarian) is
believed to have fled >from the Spanish inquision . My mother, her cousin,
her second Cousin ( all 3 ladies born between 1904 and 1927) knew the
following story:
Sometime before WWI !!! some GESMAI relative did a geneological research
and found out that the first GESMAI ever fled the Spanish inquisition to the
U.k . married a girl >from the ABRABANEL family and later on them or their
descendents moved eastwords to Central Europe. I mentioned the 3 ladies
birth dates just to stress the fact that none of them ever saw the family
tree.
Researching the family roots , in the last 6 month, I could say it is hard
to believe that this relative could base his research on documentation (
unless of course someone had an old bible or something that was lost ) as we
all know going back >from 1850 is very hard let alone to the 1400's. .
I hope some day I will be able to prove this relative was right.
In the meantime I know for sure 2 things:
1. all the beareres of the GESMAI/GESMAY/GESCHMAI family name are
relatives. The only question is how.
2. Some of the GESCHMAI family is >from RONSPERG CZ which is about 520 km.
west of the town the first GESMAI in Hungary is mentioned . This could
support the story.

We also have some dark , olive skinned relatives still living in Hungary,
and my mother allways says it is because we are originally >from Spain.

Furthermore, as I know Jewish history ( >from School) , I know that most of
the German and East European jews came >from Spain. the rulers of the German
and Polish cities gave the Jews who were merchents rights to settel in
their cities as they brought progress with them ( and later they killed them
if they had the chance....) so it must be true for nearly all of us.

Nava Giron
Isreal


Re: Sfaradic Jews in Hungary - 1023 - #hungary

Klausner
 

Dear George,
How do you expect someone to help you if you don't write your mother's
family name.
Best regards Yehuda

Dr. Yehuda Klausner
yklaus@...
yehudakl@...
klausner@...:
KLAUSNER (KLAUZNER, CLOISNER, KLUZNER, etc.), BARZAM, KADISH, BUSHKE
(BOSHKE), ZEINWIRT (ZENVIRT),
EILENBERG (ILENBERG), LIEBERMAN (all spellings), WITKIND, HOCHGELEHRNTER
(GELEHRNTER), ENGLMAN (ENGELMAN), IROM (IRAM)
TEUMIM, MICHELSON Great Britain, South Africa, Rhodesia etc.),
Descendants of Moshe ben Meir KATZNELENBOGEN of Chelm, HERLING,
KATZ, (HaCOHEN, KAHANE, COHEN, etc.) >from Galicia, GRINBERG (all spellings).

----- Original Message -----
From: "George Farkas" <gfarkas@...>
To: "H-SIG" <h-sig@...>
Sent: Sunday, June 05, 2005 5:57 PM
Subject: Re: [h-sig] Sfaradic Jews in Hungary


I was told that my mother's family had been traced to Jews who came from
Spain after the expulsion and that a relative had created a family tree
showing
this genealogy. But I have been unable to get in touch with that relative
or
find anyone who has seen a copy of that family tree.

george

George Farkas
Montreal


At 01/06/2005 08:19 AM, VivianeCK2003@... sent the following message:

Family myths or truths?
I grew up with the "myth" that my family *must* have originated >from the
Sephardim because my grandfather had dark olive skin, black eyes and
black hair.
Further, my mother said our family had come to Hungary after the
explulsion
of Jews >from Spain. However, I have no supporting documents...so this
remains ...a "myth".....
Did anyone else grow up with a myth such a this?
Viviane Kluska
Canton, MI


Hungary SIG #Hungary Re: Spharadim Jewes In Hungary #hungary

tom klein <h-sig@...>
 

without documentation, this is all speculative, but i think there were much closer sources for dark hair and olive skin than fifteenth century spain, namely the local gypsies. although it would certainly have made a more socially acceptable story...

but since you have a particularly unusual name to research, it should be possible to look for GESMAI in some of the records. for example, the sephardic forum on yahoo has lists of known sephardic names gleaned >from various sources. and the bevis marks synagogues has marriage records that might be helpful, especially if you are looking for an ABRABANEL wedding, which would certainly have been noted and easy enough to find!

best of luck,


...... tom klein, toronto

ps. with all due respect to your teachers at school, the ashkenazi community in europe did not "all come >from spain". that would imply that the ashkenazi communities started after the expulsion in 1492, which is incorrect. the communities in germany date back centuries before that. there was contact, and the exchange of ideas and persons, but the differences between the communities date back to long before the expulsion.

= ? windows-1255 ? B ? 4 un45e8 = ? = <nava105@...> wrote:

Vivian Kluska wrote the other day:"I grew up with the "myth" that my family
*must* have originated >from the
Sephardim because my grandfather had dark olive skin, black eyes and black
hair.
Further, my mother said our family had come to Hungary after the
explulsion
of Jews >from Spain. However, I have no supporting documents...so this
remains ...a "myth".....
Did anyone else grow up with a myth such a this?"

Well I grew up with the same story >from my mother's side of the Family:
The GESMAI family ( later wrote as GESMAY to make it more Hungarian) is
believed to have fled >from the Spanish inquision . My mother, her cousin,
her second Cousin ( all 3 ladies born between 1904 and 1927) knew the
following story:
Sometime before WWI !!! some GESMAI relative did a geneological research
and found out that the first GESMAI ever fled the Spanish inquisition to the
U.k . married a girl >from the ABRABANEL family and later on them or their
descendents moved eastwords to Central Europe. I mentioned the 3 ladies
birth dates just to stress the fact that none of them ever saw the family
tree.
Researching the family roots , in the last 6 month, I could say it is hard
to believe that this relative could base his research on documentation (
unless of course someone had an old bible or something that was lost ) as we
all know going back >from 1850 is very hard let alone to the 1400's. .
I hope some day I will be able to prove this relative was right.
In the meantime I know for sure 2 things:
1. all the beareres of the GESMAI/GESMAY/GESCHMAI family name are
relatives. The only question is how.
2. Some of the GESCHMAI family is >from RONSPERG CZ which is about 520 km.
west of the town the first GESMAI in Hungary is mentioned . This could
support the story.

We also have some dark , olive skinned relatives still living in Hungary,
and my mother allways says it is because we are originally >from Spain.

Furthermore, as I know Jewish history ( >from School) , I know that most of
the German and East European jews came >from Spain. the rulers of the German
and Polish cities gave the Jews who were merchents rights to settel in
their cities as they brought progress with them ( and later they killed them
if they had the chance....) so it must be true for nearly all of us.

Nava Giron
Isreal


Hungary SIG #Hungary Re: Sfaradic Jews in Hungary - 1023 - #hungary

Klausner
 

Dear George,
How do you expect someone to help you if you don't write your mother's
family name.
Best regards Yehuda

Dr. Yehuda Klausner
yklaus@...
yehudakl@...
klausner@...:
KLAUSNER (KLAUZNER, CLOISNER, KLUZNER, etc.), BARZAM, KADISH, BUSHKE
(BOSHKE), ZEINWIRT (ZENVIRT),
EILENBERG (ILENBERG), LIEBERMAN (all spellings), WITKIND, HOCHGELEHRNTER
(GELEHRNTER), ENGLMAN (ENGELMAN), IROM (IRAM)
TEUMIM, MICHELSON Great Britain, South Africa, Rhodesia etc.),
Descendants of Moshe ben Meir KATZNELENBOGEN of Chelm, HERLING,
KATZ, (HaCOHEN, KAHANE, COHEN, etc.) >from Galicia, GRINBERG (all spellings).

----- Original Message -----
From: "George Farkas" <gfarkas@...>
To: "H-SIG" <h-sig@...>
Sent: Sunday, June 05, 2005 5:57 PM
Subject: Re: [h-sig] Sfaradic Jews in Hungary


I was told that my mother's family had been traced to Jews who came from
Spain after the expulsion and that a relative had created a family tree
showing
this genealogy. But I have been unable to get in touch with that relative
or
find anyone who has seen a copy of that family tree.

george

George Farkas
Montreal


At 01/06/2005 08:19 AM, VivianeCK2003@... sent the following message:

Family myths or truths?
I grew up with the "myth" that my family *must* have originated >from the
Sephardim because my grandfather had dark olive skin, black eyes and
black hair.
Further, my mother said our family had come to Hungary after the
explulsion
of Jews >from Spain. However, I have no supporting documents...so this
remains ...a "myth".....
Did anyone else grow up with a myth such a this?
Viviane Kluska
Canton, MI