<< Does anyone know how I should interpret a surname of STROMWASSEROWNA? >>

It means simply "Miss Stromwasser." Stromwasserowa would be "Mrs.
Stromwasser."

Fay Bussgang
Lexington, MA

<< Does anyone know how I should interpret a surname of STROMWASSEROWNA? >>

It means simply "Miss Stromwasser." Stromwasserowa would be "Mrs.
Stromwasser."

Fay Bussgang
Lexington, MA

During the nineteenth century there were very few ordained rabbis in
the US. "The Frisco Kid" is pretty far off the mark. There were no
Polish yeshivot with as many students as depicted in the movie. Men
who had served in their European communities as shohetim and readers
of the Torah filled an important role. They traveled all over the US
to wherever there were Jewish communities and fulfilled the three
part role of shohet, mohel, and prayer leader. Since there was no
word in English to describe their profession they were given the
honorific of Reverend.

Ida Selavan Schwarcz
Arad, Israel

During the nineteenth century there were very few ordained rabbis in
the US. "The Frisco Kid" is pretty far off the mark. There were no
Polish yeshivot with as many students as depicted in the movie. Men
who had served in their European communities as shohetim and readers
of the Torah filled an important role. They traveled all over the US
to wherever there were Jewish communities and fulfilled the three
part role of shohet, mohel, and prayer leader. Since there was no
word in English to describe their profession they were given the
honorific of Reverend.

Ida Selavan Schwarcz
Arad, Israel

Viviane,

You point out how to get to the letter "S" but I need C, Z, L, E, etc. =
Can
you please tell me how to find the initial page for the name change =
database
so I might search for these other letters?

Thanks.

Regards,
Bonnie Frederics
Tucson, AZ
picturethisfilm@...

At 09:08 AM 6/2/2005, VivianeCK2003@... wrote:

This resource is great - they have an entire section devoted to name

changes

here I have logged into "S"
http://kt.lib.pte.hu/konyvtar/kt04112203/0_0_2_pg_203.html
It is user friendly - press "elozo oldal" to go back
press "kovetkezo oldal" to go forward
It is really helpful with genealogy research as *so many* Hungarian =20
Jews changed their names.
Viviane Kluska
Canton, MI

http://kt.lib.pte.hu/konyvtar/kt04021801/index.html 1685 trip in English
http://kt.lib.pte.hu/konyvtar/kt04111901/index.html 1801 Latin dictionary
http://kt.lib.pte.hu/konyvtar/kt04112203/index.html 1800-1895 name changes
http://kt.lib.pte.hu/konyvtar/kt03110501/tartalom.html 1877 gazetteer

No Jewish names found in 1715 census in Trencsen Megye

Sam Vass, Kent, Washington, USA

Viviane,

You point out how to get to the letter "S" but I need C, Z, L, E, etc. =
Can
you please tell me how to find the initial page for the name change =
database
so I might search for these other letters?

Thanks.

Regards,
Bonnie Frederics
Tucson, AZ
picturethisfilm@...

At 09:08 AM 6/2/2005, VivianeCK2003@... wrote:

This resource is great - they have an entire section devoted to name

changes

here I have logged into "S"
http://kt.lib.pte.hu/konyvtar/kt04112203/0_0_2_pg_203.html
It is user friendly - press "elozo oldal" to go back
press "kovetkezo oldal" to go forward
It is really helpful with genealogy research as *so many* Hungarian =20
Jews changed their names.
Viviane Kluska
Canton, MI

http://kt.lib.pte.hu/konyvtar/kt04021801/index.html 1685 trip in English
http://kt.lib.pte.hu/konyvtar/kt04111901/index.html 1801 Latin dictionary
http://kt.lib.pte.hu/konyvtar/kt04112203/index.html 1800-1895 name changes
http://kt.lib.pte.hu/konyvtar/kt03110501/tartalom.html 1877 gazetteer

No Jewish names found in 1715 census in Trencsen Megye

Sam Vass, Kent, Washington, USA

without documentation, this is all speculative, but i think there were much closer sources for dark hair and olive skin than fifteenth century spain, namely the local gypsies. although it would certainly have made a more socially acceptable story...

but since you have a particularly unusual name to research, it should be possible to look for GESMAI in some of the records. for example, the sephardic forum on yahoo has lists of known sephardic names gleaned >from various sources. and the bevis marks synagogues has marriage records that might be helpful, especially if you are looking for an ABRABANEL wedding, which would certainly have been noted and easy enough to find!

best of luck,


...... tom klein, toronto

ps. with all due respect to your teachers at school, the ashkenazi community in europe did not "all come >from spain". that would imply that the ashkenazi communities started after the expulsion in 1492, which is incorrect. the communities in germany date back centuries before that. there was contact, and the exchange of ideas and persons, but the differences between the communities date back to long before the expulsion.

Dear George,
How do you expect someone to help you if you don't write your mother's
family name.
Best regards Yehuda

Dr. Yehuda Klausner
yklaus@...
yehudakl@...
klausner@...:
KLAUSNER (KLAUZNER, CLOISNER, KLUZNER, etc.), BARZAM, KADISH, BUSHKE
(BOSHKE), ZEINWIRT (ZENVIRT),
EILENBERG (ILENBERG), LIEBERMAN (all spellings), WITKIND, HOCHGELEHRNTER
(GELEHRNTER), ENGLMAN (ENGELMAN), IROM (IRAM)
TEUMIM, MICHELSON Great Britain, South Africa, Rhodesia etc.),
Descendants of Moshe ben Meir KATZNELENBOGEN of Chelm, HERLING,
KATZ, (HaCOHEN, KAHANE, COHEN, etc.) >from Galicia, GRINBERG (all spellings).

without documentation, this is all speculative, but i think there were much closer sources for dark hair and olive skin than fifteenth century spain, namely the local gypsies. although it would certainly have made a more socially acceptable story...

but since you have a particularly unusual name to research, it should be possible to look for GESMAI in some of the records. for example, the sephardic forum on yahoo has lists of known sephardic names gleaned >from various sources. and the bevis marks synagogues has marriage records that might be helpful, especially if you are looking for an ABRABANEL wedding, which would certainly have been noted and easy enough to find!

best of luck,


...... tom klein, toronto

ps. with all due respect to your teachers at school, the ashkenazi community in europe did not "all come >from spain". that would imply that the ashkenazi communities started after the expulsion in 1492, which is incorrect. the communities in germany date back centuries before that. there was contact, and the exchange of ideas and persons, but the differences between the communities date back to long before the expulsion.

Dear George,
How do you expect someone to help you if you don't write your mother's
family name.
Best regards Yehuda

Dr. Yehuda Klausner
yklaus@...
yehudakl@...
klausner@...:
KLAUSNER (KLAUZNER, CLOISNER, KLUZNER, etc.), BARZAM, KADISH, BUSHKE
(BOSHKE), ZEINWIRT (ZENVIRT),
EILENBERG (ILENBERG), LIEBERMAN (all spellings), WITKIND, HOCHGELEHRNTER
(GELEHRNTER), ENGLMAN (ENGELMAN), IROM (IRAM)
TEUMIM, MICHELSON Great Britain, South Africa, Rhodesia etc.),
Descendants of Moshe ben Meir KATZNELENBOGEN of Chelm, HERLING,
KATZ, (HaCOHEN, KAHANE, COHEN, etc.) >from Galicia, GRINBERG (all spellings).

The brother of my greatgrandmother(Schwartz family >from Szabolcs
county),used to say that we are decendents of the autor of mishne lamelech
,who was rabbi Yehuda Rosanes >from Turkey.
When i ask him how was it posible that we are ashkenasim and decendents of
sfardim,he answer that all the Schwartz family come >from spain in the
inquisition time.
I never find out any Rosanes living in hungary but i found some living in
Poland.
this month i found in the 1715 census 3 Rosanics or Rozonics living in a
small town near Kismarton(Eisenstadt).can they be jewish?or it is just a
similar hungarian lastname?.
anyone with the same story?

thanks
Ruben Weiser.
Buenos Aires
Argentina

Vivian Kluska wrote the other day:"I grew up with the "myth" that my

family

*must* have originated >from the
Sephardim because my grandfather had dark olive skin, black eyes and

black

hair.
Further, my mother said our family had come to Hungary after the
explulsion
of Jews >from Spain. However, I have no supporting documents...so this
remains ...a "myth".....
Did anyone else grow up with a myth such a this?"

----- Original Message -----
From: "H-SIG digest" <h-sig@...>
To: "h-sig digest recipients" <h-sig@...>
Sent: Monday, June 06, 2005 3:00 AM
Subject: h-sig digest: June 05, 2005

H-SIG Digest for Sunday, June 05, 2005.

1. Re: NEV VALTOZTATASOK - NAME CHANGES - PECS UNIVERSITY
2. Re: The 1715 and other Hungarian censuses
3. Schwartz family >from Vynogradovo (Nagyszollos)
4. Re: TRANSLATION PLEASE
5. Spharadim Jewes In Hungary
6. Re: 1715 Census On-Line
7. 1916 census of Jerusalem
8. Pe'cs - again
9. * More Astounding Resources
10. Re: Sfaradic Jews in Hungary
11. RE: Auslander Family... My bad
12. Re: NEV VALTOZTATASOK - NAME CHANGES - PECS UNIVERSITY
13. Re: * More Astounding Resources

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Subject: Re: NEV VALTOZTATASOK - NAME CHANGES - PECS UNIVERSITY
From: VivianeCK2003@...
Date: Sat, 4 Jun 2005 03:53:43 EDT
X-Message-Number: 1

Pat:
Just select the
_http://kt.lib.pte.hu/konyvtar/kt04112203/0_0_2_pg_203.html_

(http://kt.lib.pte.hu/konyvtar/kt04112203/0_0_2_pg_203.html)

copy it and paste it into your browser. It will take you to "S".

To go forward point and click on "kovetkezo oldal". Keeping double

clicking

on this and you will get to TRA.

Viviane
My hungarian is limited. I was not born there. I have oral Hungarian

and

two dictionaries by my computer. I also used to do research in another

field.

I tend to try everything on a website and sometimes fall into something
good... like this...good luck

In a message dated 6/4/2005 3:05:21 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,
patjw28@... writes:
Vivian,

How do you log in? I'm interested in TRA.

Pat



At 09:08 AM 6/2/2005, VivianeCK2003@... wrote:

This resource is great - they have an entire section devoted to name

changes

here I have logged into "S"
http://kt.lib.pte.hu/konyvtar/kt04112203/0_0_2_pg_203.html
It is user friendly - press "elozo oldal" to go back
press "kovetkezo oldal" to go forward
It is really helpful with genealogy research as *so many* Hungarian

Jews

changed
their names.
Viviane Kluska
Canton, MI

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Subject: Re: The 1715 and other Hungarian censuses
From: VivianeCK2003@...
Date: Sat, 4 Jun 2005 03:59:35 EDT
X-Message-Number: 2

Henry:
Thank you for the interesting information...I have put some comments in
CAPS....

In a message dated 6/4/2005 3:23:14 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,
kelwel@... writes:
It is of course very interesting to see this early census, but we should

not

forget that much more extensive information on Hungarian Jewry during the
18th century is easily available. ONLINE????
PLEASE POINT ME IN THE RIGHT DIRECTION...THANKS
I refer to the numerous Jewish censuses
generally called Conscriptio Judeorum which were conducted by the Royal
Hungarian authorities.
The censuses for 1725-28, 1735-38, 1743-48, 1752-54, 1768, 1770-75 have

been

preserved in the handwritten original and are available >from the FHL on
microfilm.
They have also been published in print in the 18 volume set of Magyar

Zsido

Okleveltar. This is easier to read since the handwriting in the filmed
documents is often difficult to make out. IS THIS ONLINE? WHERE?
Most of these censuses cover traditional Hungary, except Transylvania.
The amount of information contained in these censuses is extensive. In

all

cases the head of household is named, his profession, often his assets,

the

tax he was assessed, sometimes the name of the spouse, the number, age

and

sex of children are given.
The 1735-38 census lists even the place where he comes >from and gives the
name of his former Lord protector. In theory this makes it possible to
pursue the ancestry of Hungarian Jews into the country where they came

from.

We must not forget that practically all Hungarian Jews are immigrants,

from

either Moravia, Bohemia, Austria or Galicia and resided in the West near

the

Austrian and Moravian border. The few Jews, most Sephardic, who lived

under

Turks retreated together with the Turks after they were defeated by the
Austrians.
It is of course true that in most cases Jews did not have family names,

but

I did for instance find a Salomon Wellisch in the Conscriptio Judeorum

1753

living in Rajka. Since this is my family's ancestral town, there is

little

doubt that this is one of my ancestors, but there is no way to

substantiate

this.
There is some excellent research available on the whole background of
Hungarian Jewry.
Henry Wellisch
Toronto



Thanks for this post,
Viviane Kluska
Canton, MI
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Subject: Schwartz family >from Vynogradovo (Nagyszollos)
From: "Adam Smith" <ajsmith98@...>
Date: Sat, 04 Jun 2005 15:24:30 +0000
X-Message-Number: 3

Hi Everyone,

I am trying to track down survivors of a branch of my Tambor family that
married into a Schwartz family.

David Leib Schwartz b. 1864 married Hani Haya Tambor. Before the War they
lived in Nagyszollos. Their children were Ignacz (Henry) Schwartz b.

1904,

who survived the Shoah and went to Toronto, Sarah Rifka (Regina) b. 1909,
who also survived and went to Israel. She married to a Horowitz. They

may

have lived in Kfar Ata.

If anyone knows anything about this family, I would appreciate your help.

Take care,
Adam Smith

New York, NY

Searching:
TAMBOR: Nankovo, Kelechin, and all of Maramaos
SAPSOWITZ, SAPSZOVICS: Horinchovo, Iza, Lipsha
OBERLANDER: Chinadievo, Mukachevo, Miskolc, Tarpa
BEZDEDI: Any


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Subject: Re: TRANSLATION PLEASE
From: Robert Neu <roneu1@...>
Date: Sat, 4 Jun 2005 09:52:06 -0700 (PDT)
X-Message-Number: 4

Bonnie,
This is all that it is:

Completed 3 January 1889
in lieu
of official Lipot Goldstein
stamp Matrix Register Director
(anyakonyv)

Robert
--- "B. Frederics" <picturethisfilm@...> wrote:

Siggers,

I found the birth record of a possible family
ancestor which was the last
one on the page. Below it, under the last column on
the right, was a note
written in Hungarian. If someone would kindly
translate this for me, I'd be
most appreciative. It can be found on Viewmate,
VM6164.

Thanks in advance.

Regards,
Bonnie Frederics
Tucson, AZ
picturethisfilm@...

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Subject: Spharadim Jewes In Hungary
From: =?windows-1255?B?4un45e8=?= <nava105@...>
Date: Sat, 4 Jun 2005 21:58:48 +0200
X-Message-Number: 5

Vivian Kluska wrote the other day:"I grew up with the "myth" that my

family

*must* have originated >from the
Sephardim because my grandfather had dark olive skin, black eyes and

black

hair.
Further, my mother said our family had come to Hungary after the
explulsion
of Jews >from Spain. However, I have no supporting documents...so this
remains ...a "myth".....
Did anyone else grow up with a myth such a this?"

Well I grew up with the same story >from my mother's side of the Family:
The GESMAI family ( later wrote as GESMAY to make it more Hungarian) is
believed to have fled >from the Spanish inquision . My mother, her cousin,
her second Cousin ( all 3 ladies born between 1904 and 1927) knew the
following story:
Sometime before WWI !!! some GESMAI relative did a geneological research
and found out that the first GESMAI ever fled the Spanish inquisition to

the

U.k . married a girl >from the ABRABANEL family and later on them or their
descendents moved eastwords to Central Europe. I mentioned the 3 ladies
birth dates just to stress the fact that none of them ever saw the family
tree.
Researching the family roots , in the last 6 month, I could say it is hard
to believe that this relative could base his research on documentation (
unless of course someone had an old bible or something that was lost ) as

we

all know going back >from 1850 is very hard let alone to the 1400's. .
I hope some day I will be able to prove this relative was right.
In the meantime I know for sure 2 things:
1. all the beareres of the GESMAI/GESMAY/GESCHMAI family name are
relatives. The only question is how.
2. Some of the GESCHMAI family is >from RONSPERG CZ which is about 520

km.

west of the town the first GESMAI in Hungary is mentioned . This could
support the story.

We also have some dark , olive skinned relatives still living in Hungary,
and my mother allways says it is because we are originally >from Spain.

Furthermore, as I know Jewish history ( >from School) , I know that most of
the German and East European jews came >from Spain. the rulers of the

German

and Polish cities gave the Jews who were merchents rights to settel in
their cities as they brought progress with them ( and later they killed

them

if they had the chance....) so it must be true for nearly all of us.

Nava Giron
Isreal

The brother of my greatgrandmother(Schwartz family >from Szabolcs
county),used to say that we are decendents of the autor of mishne lamelech
,who was rabbi Yehuda Rosanes >from Turkey.
When i ask him how was it posible that we are ashkenasim and decendents of
sfardim,he answer that all the Schwartz family come >from spain in the
inquisition time.
I never find out any Rosanes living in hungary but i found some living in
Poland.
this month i found in the 1715 census 3 Rosanics or Rozonics living in a
small town near Kismarton(Eisenstadt).can they be jewish?or it is just a
similar hungarian lastname?.
anyone with the same story?

thanks
Ruben Weiser.
Buenos Aires
Argentina

Vivian Kluska wrote the other day:"I grew up with the "myth" that my

family

*must* have originated >from the
Sephardim because my grandfather had dark olive skin, black eyes and

black

hair.
Further, my mother said our family had come to Hungary after the
explulsion
of Jews >from Spain. However, I have no supporting documents...so this
remains ...a "myth".....
Did anyone else grow up with a myth such a this?"

----- Original Message -----
From: "H-SIG digest" <h-sig@...>
To: "h-sig digest recipients" <h-sig@...>
Sent: Monday, June 06, 2005 3:00 AM
Subject: h-sig digest: June 05, 2005

H-SIG Digest for Sunday, June 05, 2005.

1. Re: NEV VALTOZTATASOK - NAME CHANGES - PECS UNIVERSITY
2. Re: The 1715 and other Hungarian censuses
3. Schwartz family >from Vynogradovo (Nagyszollos)
4. Re: TRANSLATION PLEASE
5. Spharadim Jewes In Hungary
6. Re: 1715 Census On-Line
7. 1916 census of Jerusalem
8. Pe'cs - again
9. * More Astounding Resources
10. Re: Sfaradic Jews in Hungary
11. RE: Auslander Family... My bad
12. Re: NEV VALTOZTATASOK - NAME CHANGES - PECS UNIVERSITY
13. Re: * More Astounding Resources

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Subject: Re: NEV VALTOZTATASOK - NAME CHANGES - PECS UNIVERSITY
From: VivianeCK2003@...
Date: Sat, 4 Jun 2005 03:53:43 EDT
X-Message-Number: 1

Pat:
Just select the
_http://kt.lib.pte.hu/konyvtar/kt04112203/0_0_2_pg_203.html_

(http://kt.lib.pte.hu/konyvtar/kt04112203/0_0_2_pg_203.html)

copy it and paste it into your browser. It will take you to "S".

To go forward point and click on "kovetkezo oldal". Keeping double

clicking

on this and you will get to TRA.

Viviane
My hungarian is limited. I was not born there. I have oral Hungarian

and

two dictionaries by my computer. I also used to do research in another

field.

I tend to try everything on a website and sometimes fall into something
good... like this...good luck

In a message dated 6/4/2005 3:05:21 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,
patjw28@... writes:
Vivian,

How do you log in? I'm interested in TRA.

Pat



At 09:08 AM 6/2/2005, VivianeCK2003@... wrote:

This resource is great - they have an entire section devoted to name

changes

here I have logged into "S"
http://kt.lib.pte.hu/konyvtar/kt04112203/0_0_2_pg_203.html
It is user friendly - press "elozo oldal" to go back
press "kovetkezo oldal" to go forward
It is really helpful with genealogy research as *so many* Hungarian

Jews

changed
their names.
Viviane Kluska
Canton, MI

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Subject: Re: The 1715 and other Hungarian censuses
From: VivianeCK2003@...
Date: Sat, 4 Jun 2005 03:59:35 EDT
X-Message-Number: 2

Henry:
Thank you for the interesting information...I have put some comments in
CAPS....

In a message dated 6/4/2005 3:23:14 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,
kelwel@... writes:
It is of course very interesting to see this early census, but we should

not

forget that much more extensive information on Hungarian Jewry during the
18th century is easily available. ONLINE????
PLEASE POINT ME IN THE RIGHT DIRECTION...THANKS
I refer to the numerous Jewish censuses
generally called Conscriptio Judeorum which were conducted by the Royal
Hungarian authorities.
The censuses for 1725-28, 1735-38, 1743-48, 1752-54, 1768, 1770-75 have

been

preserved in the handwritten original and are available >from the FHL on
microfilm.
They have also been published in print in the 18 volume set of Magyar

Zsido

Okleveltar. This is easier to read since the handwriting in the filmed
documents is often difficult to make out. IS THIS ONLINE? WHERE?
Most of these censuses cover traditional Hungary, except Transylvania.
The amount of information contained in these censuses is extensive. In

all

cases the head of household is named, his profession, often his assets,

the

tax he was assessed, sometimes the name of the spouse, the number, age

and

sex of children are given.
The 1735-38 census lists even the place where he comes >from and gives the
name of his former Lord protector. In theory this makes it possible to
pursue the ancestry of Hungarian Jews into the country where they came

from.

We must not forget that practically all Hungarian Jews are immigrants,

from

either Moravia, Bohemia, Austria or Galicia and resided in the West near

the

Austrian and Moravian border. The few Jews, most Sephardic, who lived

under

Turks retreated together with the Turks after they were defeated by the
Austrians.
It is of course true that in most cases Jews did not have family names,

but

I did for instance find a Salomon Wellisch in the Conscriptio Judeorum

1753

living in Rajka. Since this is my family's ancestral town, there is

little

doubt that this is one of my ancestors, but there is no way to

substantiate

this.
There is some excellent research available on the whole background of
Hungarian Jewry.
Henry Wellisch
Toronto



Thanks for this post,
Viviane Kluska
Canton, MI
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Subject: Schwartz family >from Vynogradovo (Nagyszollos)
From: "Adam Smith" <ajsmith98@...>
Date: Sat, 04 Jun 2005 15:24:30 +0000
X-Message-Number: 3

Hi Everyone,

I am trying to track down survivors of a branch of my Tambor family that
married into a Schwartz family.

David Leib Schwartz b. 1864 married Hani Haya Tambor. Before the War they
lived in Nagyszollos. Their children were Ignacz (Henry) Schwartz b.

1904,

who survived the Shoah and went to Toronto, Sarah Rifka (Regina) b. 1909,
who also survived and went to Israel. She married to a Horowitz. They

may

have lived in Kfar Ata.

If anyone knows anything about this family, I would appreciate your help.

Take care,
Adam Smith

New York, NY

Searching:
TAMBOR: Nankovo, Kelechin, and all of Maramaos
SAPSOWITZ, SAPSZOVICS: Horinchovo, Iza, Lipsha
OBERLANDER: Chinadievo, Mukachevo, Miskolc, Tarpa
BEZDEDI: Any


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Subject: Re: TRANSLATION PLEASE
From: Robert Neu <roneu1@...>
Date: Sat, 4 Jun 2005 09:52:06 -0700 (PDT)
X-Message-Number: 4

Bonnie,
This is all that it is:

Completed 3 January 1889
in lieu
of official Lipot Goldstein
stamp Matrix Register Director
(anyakonyv)

Robert
--- "B. Frederics" <picturethisfilm@...> wrote:

Siggers,

I found the birth record of a possible family
ancestor which was the last
one on the page. Below it, under the last column on
the right, was a note
written in Hungarian. If someone would kindly
translate this for me, I'd be
most appreciative. It can be found on Viewmate,
VM6164.

Thanks in advance.

Regards,
Bonnie Frederics
Tucson, AZ
picturethisfilm@...

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Subject: Spharadim Jewes In Hungary
From: =?windows-1255?B?4un45e8=?= <nava105@...>
Date: Sat, 4 Jun 2005 21:58:48 +0200
X-Message-Number: 5

Vivian Kluska wrote the other day:"I grew up with the "myth" that my

family

*must* have originated >from the
Sephardim because my grandfather had dark olive skin, black eyes and

black

hair.
Further, my mother said our family had come to Hungary after the
explulsion
of Jews >from Spain. However, I have no supporting documents...so this
remains ...a "myth".....
Did anyone else grow up with a myth such a this?"

Well I grew up with the same story >from my mother's side of the Family:
The GESMAI family ( later wrote as GESMAY to make it more Hungarian) is
believed to have fled >from the Spanish inquision . My mother, her cousin,
her second Cousin ( all 3 ladies born between 1904 and 1927) knew the
following story:
Sometime before WWI !!! some GESMAI relative did a geneological research
and found out that the first GESMAI ever fled the Spanish inquisition to

the

U.k . married a girl >from the ABRABANEL family and later on them or their
descendents moved eastwords to Central Europe. I mentioned the 3 ladies
birth dates just to stress the fact that none of them ever saw the family
tree.
Researching the family roots , in the last 6 month, I could say it is hard
to believe that this relative could base his research on documentation (
unless of course someone had an old bible or something that was lost ) as

we

all know going back >from 1850 is very hard let alone to the 1400's. .
I hope some day I will be able to prove this relative was right.
In the meantime I know for sure 2 things:
1. all the beareres of the GESMAI/GESMAY/GESCHMAI family name are
relatives. The only question is how.
2. Some of the GESCHMAI family is >from RONSPERG CZ which is about 520

km.

west of the town the first GESMAI in Hungary is mentioned . This could
support the story.

We also have some dark , olive skinned relatives still living in Hungary,
and my mother allways says it is because we are originally >from Spain.

Furthermore, as I know Jewish history ( >from School) , I know that most of
the German and East European jews came >from Spain. the rulers of the

German

and Polish cities gave the Jews who were merchents rights to settel in
their cities as they brought progress with them ( and later they killed

them

if they had the chance....) so it must be true for nearly all of us.

Nava Giron
Isreal

Hi,
This is simply to indicate that this is NOT a
newdatabase, as it has been available for years as a
book and microfiche >from the FHL. Though of course
it's great to have it online.

Robert

--- Patricia J Weisshaus <patjw28@...>
wrote:

Hi,
This is simply to indicate that this is NOT a
newdatabase, as it has been available for years as a
book and microfiche >from the FHL. Though of course
it's great to have it online.

Robert

--- Patricia J Weisshaus <patjw28@...>
wrote:

Hi all,
I hope you realized that both link are to different
pages of the same document(500 pages). Both on top and
bottom it shows "elozo oldal" and "kovetkezo oldal"
meaning "previous page" and "next page", and by
clicking on it is what you get.

The numbers >from the so called 1736 Census are known
otherwise with even the names. The next pages of the
first link will show you the numbers for each village
in the counties.

Of interest is that "not all" places that had Jews are
listed in the census (I guess we suspected it.)

The discussion of the second link addresses this and
gives an idea as to what might be missing. It is
mainly noble lands not considered under "royal
tutelage", some counties are totally missing (really
half of the 60) The estimate is that the missing was
may be 10%.

As a detail as to the presence of Jews in Erdely
(Transylvania) the estimate is low and indicates for
instance that in Temes county there were "12 Spanish
Jews".

The portion dedicated to Jews is only a part. You can
also find their occupation which includes: kocsmaros
(inn/pub keepers) 150, palinkafozo (maker of brandy)
263, szabo (taylor) 146, hazalo (peddler) 814.

In an analysis of the population according to the
language of their last name, just for comparison, it
indicates that their were about 80,000 Hungarian
language last names, and about 20,000 German language
names (Jews included?.) In any case it would confirm
that the names on the 1715 Census were "Magyarized."

You can also compare the percentage of Jews to
Population and it might explain, why Jews were to some
extent accepted/welcome or whatever - especially in
the countryside -, after the devastation >from the
Turkish occupation and the ongoing 150 years of
warfare.

In any case enjoy, if you speak some Hungarian, though
for the tables a dictionary is sufficient.

Robert Neu


--- Tom Venetianer <tom.vene@...> wrote:

Dear Vivian and all,

What Vivian found is a true Pandora box. One never
ceases discovering new and fantastic research
information and resources. Here is the one I
uncovered today:

Magyarorszag nepessege a Pragmatica Sanctio koraban
1720-21.

It's a very comprehensive census of the population
living in the Hungarian Empire, surveyed in around
1735-1739. Some pages are of special interest to us:

Pages 282 to 290 contain a detailed statistic of all
Jews living in the Empire, classified by several
criteria (including the regions >from where they came
to the Empire) and presented by counties and places.
The entry page is:

http://kt.lib.pte.hu/konyvtar/kt04120203/0_0_2_pg_282.html

On pages 488 to 490 there is a summary (in
Hungarian) of the history of Jewish settlements in
the Empire and comments on migrations. The entry
page is:

http://kt.lib.pte.hu/konyvtar/kt04120203/0_0_2_pg_488.html

Enjoy
Tom

-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-
Tom Venetianer <mailto:tom.vene@...>
Sao Paulo - Brazil

Hi all,
I hope you realized that both link are to different
pages of the same document(500 pages). Both on top and
bottom it shows "elozo oldal" and "kovetkezo oldal"
meaning "previous page" and "next page", and by
clicking on it is what you get.

The numbers >from the so called 1736 Census are known
otherwise with even the names. The next pages of the
first link will show you the numbers for each village
in the counties.

Of interest is that "not all" places that had Jews are
listed in the census (I guess we suspected it.)

The discussion of the second link addresses this and
gives an idea as to what might be missing. It is
mainly noble lands not considered under "royal
tutelage", some counties are totally missing (really
half of the 60) The estimate is that the missing was
may be 10%.

As a detail as to the presence of Jews in Erdely
(Transylvania) the estimate is low and indicates for
instance that in Temes county there were "12 Spanish
Jews".

The portion dedicated to Jews is only a part. You can
also find their occupation which includes: kocsmaros
(inn/pub keepers) 150, palinkafozo (maker of brandy)
263, szabo (taylor) 146, hazalo (peddler) 814.

In an analysis of the population according to the
language of their last name, just for comparison, it
indicates that their were about 80,000 Hungarian
language last names, and about 20,000 German language
names (Jews included?.) In any case it would confirm
that the names on the 1715 Census were "Magyarized."

You can also compare the percentage of Jews to
Population and it might explain, why Jews were to some
extent accepted/welcome or whatever - especially in
the countryside -, after the devastation >from the
Turkish occupation and the ongoing 150 years of
warfare.

In any case enjoy, if you speak some Hungarian, though
for the tables a dictionary is sufficient.

Robert Neu


--- Tom Venetianer <tom.vene@...> wrote:

Dear Vivian and all,

What Vivian found is a true Pandora box. One never
ceases discovering new and fantastic research
information and resources. Here is the one I
uncovered today:

Magyarorszag nepessege a Pragmatica Sanctio koraban
1720-21.

It's a very comprehensive census of the population
living in the Hungarian Empire, surveyed in around
1735-1739. Some pages are of special interest to us:

Pages 282 to 290 contain a detailed statistic of all
Jews living in the Empire, classified by several
criteria (including the regions >from where they came
to the Empire) and presented by counties and places.
The entry page is:

http://kt.lib.pte.hu/konyvtar/kt04120203/0_0_2_pg_282.html

On pages 488 to 490 there is a summary (in
Hungarian) of the history of Jewish settlements in
the Empire and comments on migrations. The entry
page is:

http://kt.lib.pte.hu/konyvtar/kt04120203/0_0_2_pg_488.html

Enjoy
Tom

-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-
Tom Venetianer <mailto:tom.vene@...>
Sao Paulo - Brazil

On June 1, 2005 Peter I Hidas wrote:

Temesvar was an important Jewish community >from the 17th century. In
1910 6728 Jews lived there. Total pop.: 72,555. The Jews migrated here

from the Balkans and were Sephardic. In 1840 the Jewish pop. was 960,

by 1880 it grew to 4196.

Peter,
Why does the 1848 Jewish Census list only 6 households? Could nearly 1000
have been overlooked or was there a reason why they were intentionally left
out? Granted, there were some more Jews in Temesvar who were Turkish subjects,
but they were given only short term, temporary permits to stay. As far as I can
tell, that's the only indication (according to correspondence attached to
the census) for a larger number of Jews in Temesvar in1848.

Judy Bacskai
Kensington, CA

On June 1, 2005 Peter I Hidas wrote:

Temesvar was an important Jewish community >from the 17th century. In
1910 6728 Jews lived there. Total pop.: 72,555. The Jews migrated here

from the Balkans and were Sephardic. In 1840 the Jewish pop. was 960,

by 1880 it grew to 4196.

Peter,
Why does the 1848 Jewish Census list only 6 households? Could nearly 1000
have been overlooked or was there a reason why they were intentionally left
out? Granted, there were some more Jews in Temesvar who were Turkish subjects,
but they were given only short term, temporary permits to stay. As far as I can
tell, that's the only indication (according to correspondence attached to
the census) for a larger number of Jews in Temesvar in1848.

Judy Bacskai
Kensington, CA