At 01:00 AM 08/18/2004 NFatouros@... wrote:

On Aug.15, 04 Phyllis Bosworth (phylboz@...) said she was

<<Looking for information on Slauliai, Lithuania. Is it the same as present
day Silale, Lithuania.>>

I don't know how the "l" crept in after the "S" but I am quite sure that she
is interested in Sauliai, also known as Shav, Schaulen, Shavel, Shaulia,
Siavliai, and Schawli, and Saula, according to Nancy Schoenburg and Stuart
Schoenburg 'Lithuanian Jewish Communities."

Actually, it is not difficult to see how the "l" crept in. The town in
question is now known by its present name - Siauliai. The "i" after the
"S" can easily be misread as an "l".

Arnold Davidson
Boynton Beach, FL
arnoldbd@...

At 01:00 AM 08/18/2004 NFatouros@... wrote:

On Aug.15, 04 Phyllis Bosworth (phylboz@...) said she was

<<Looking for information on Slauliai, Lithuania. Is it the same as present
day Silale, Lithuania.>>

I don't know how the "l" crept in after the "S" but I am quite sure that she
is interested in Sauliai, also known as Shav, Schaulen, Shavel, Shaulia,
Siavliai, and Schawli, and Saula, according to Nancy Schoenburg and Stuart
Schoenburg 'Lithuanian Jewish Communities."

Actually, it is not difficult to see how the "l" crept in. The town in
question is now known by its present name - Siauliai. The "i" after the
"S" can easily be misread as an "l".

Arnold Davidson
Boynton Beach, FL
arnoldbd@...

Recently I asked Belarus SIG for advice where to go with the request for the
copy of my late (died in Belarus in 1981) father's birth certificate.
David Fox suggested me to contact the Consulate General of the Republic of
Belarus, http://www.belarusconsul.org/
They have on their web site the council affairs chapter, where they describe
the rules how to request archival documents. But all this information
available only in Russian version. (Follow the link below)

http://www.belarusconsul.org/rus/doc_request/doc_duplicate.htm

I translated just few statements, because of their significance:

Issuing copies of birth certificates of deceased persons is prohibited

Death certificates can be requested by the relatives of deceased or by
juridical person.

Regards,
Boris Bayevsky (Researcher # 26891)
Tallahassee, Florida
Researching Bayevsky, Rachlenko, Rubinshtein, Epshtein, >from Gomel
(Belarus), Kiev, Berdichev (Ukraine), Vikhvatinets (Bessarabiya)



David Fox wrote:

Suggest that you contact the Consulate General of the Republic of Belarus.
Here is the contact information. Please post a message to the SIG
discussion group to report back on the results you get >from contacting

them.

Address
708 Third Avenue,21st Floor, New York,NY 10017

Location
3rd Avenue & 44th Street

Telephone
(1-212) 682-5392

Fax
(1-212) 682-5491

E-mail
gcny@...

Subway
Grand Central Terminal Station

Office Hours
9:30 a.m.-12:30 p.m. Monday through Friday

Good luck.

Dave
--
David Fox

Recently I asked Belarus SIG for advice where to go with the request for the
copy of my late (died in Belarus in 1981) father's birth certificate.
David Fox suggested me to contact the Consulate General of the Republic of
Belarus, http://www.belarusconsul.org/
They have on their web site the council affairs chapter, where they describe
the rules how to request archival documents. But all this information
available only in Russian version. (Follow the link below)

http://www.belarusconsul.org/rus/doc_request/doc_duplicate.htm

I translated just few statements, because of their significance:

Issuing copies of birth certificates of deceased persons is prohibited

Death certificates can be requested by the relatives of deceased or by
juridical person.

Regards,
Boris Bayevsky (Researcher # 26891)
Tallahassee, Florida
Researching Bayevsky, Rachlenko, Rubinshtein, Epshtein, >from Gomel
(Belarus), Kiev, Berdichev (Ukraine), Vikhvatinets (Bessarabiya)



David Fox wrote:

Suggest that you contact the Consulate General of the Republic of Belarus.
Here is the contact information. Please post a message to the SIG
discussion group to report back on the results you get >from contacting

them.

Address
708 Third Avenue,21st Floor, New York,NY 10017

Location
3rd Avenue & 44th Street

Telephone
(1-212) 682-5392

Fax
(1-212) 682-5491

E-mail
gcny@...

Subway
Grand Central Terminal Station

Office Hours
9:30 a.m.-12:30 p.m. Monday through Friday

Good luck.

Dave
--
David Fox

In response to Darlene Bregman Ehrenberg’s question about
David Horodok birth records, the David Horodok web page, located at
http://davidhorodok.netfirms.com/ contains English translation of birth
and death records >from 1886-1892. The Family History Library (LDS
genealogy library) has microfilms of Jewish vital records for David
Horodok >from 1874-1910. The records are in Russian and Hebrew. The URL for
the Family History Library is http://www.familysearch.org/ and for their
catalog (search under David Gorodok) is
http://www.familysearch.org/Eng/Library/FHLC/frameset_fhlc.asp.

Unfortunatly, as far as I know ,there are no Jewish birth records for
1860. The David Horodok web page also lists David Horodok Jews murdered in
the Holocaust.

Brian Kaye
Piedmont, CA

In response to Darlene Bregman Ehrenberg’s question about
David Horodok birth records, the David Horodok web page, located at
http://davidhorodok.netfirms.com/ contains English translation of birth
and death records >from 1886-1892. The Family History Library (LDS
genealogy library) has microfilms of Jewish vital records for David
Horodok >from 1874-1910. The records are in Russian and Hebrew. The URL for
the Family History Library is http://www.familysearch.org/ and for their
catalog (search under David Gorodok) is
http://www.familysearch.org/Eng/Library/FHLC/frameset_fhlc.asp.

Unfortunatly, as far as I know ,there are no Jewish birth records for
1860. The David Horodok web page also lists David Horodok Jews murdered in
the Holocaust.

Brian Kaye
Piedmont, CA

According to "Where Once We Walked", Silale, Lithuania is 87 km SW of
Siauliai. In Yiddish, it was known as Sallel or Shilel. Siauliai, known as
Shavel, etc., was a more important Jewish center, but there was a
significant Jewish community in Silale, as well.

Chuck Weinstein in Commack, NY
cmw521@...

According to "Where Once We Walked", Silale, Lithuania is 87 km SW of
Siauliai. In Yiddish, it was known as Sallel or Shilel. Siauliai, known as
Shavel, etc., was a more important Jewish center, but there was a
significant Jewish community in Silale, as well.

Chuck Weinstein in Commack, NY
cmw521@...

Within the Jewish legal literature, there is an entire genre
of books known as "Shemot Gittin" (literally, "Names in Divorce
Documents.") "Halachah" (Jewish law) places a premium on the
correct identification and spelling of the husband and wife's
names in a "Get" (divorce document). Accordingly, many medieval
and later authorities researched the origins of nicknames and
wrote books about them. These books can be useful sources for
discovering the origin of Yiddish, Russian, Polish, Ladino and
Arabic nicknames. Of course, these books are always in Hebrew
and require some ability to read halachic literature.
I hope this helps someone.
Shlomo Katz
Silver Spring Maryland

Within the Jewish legal literature, there is an entire genre
of books known as "Shemot Gittin" (literally, "Names in Divorce
Documents.") "Halachah" (Jewish law) places a premium on the
correct identification and spelling of the husband and wife's
names in a "Get" (divorce document). Accordingly, many medieval
and later authorities researched the origins of nicknames and
wrote books about them. These books can be useful sources for
discovering the origin of Yiddish, Russian, Polish, Ladino and
Arabic nicknames. Of course, these books are always in Hebrew
and require some ability to read halachic literature.
I hope this helps someone.
Shlomo Katz
Silver Spring Maryland

In article <uViCr8LlbtmJ-pn2-XgzWybWcQe52@poblano>,
Stan Goodman <SPAM_FOILER@...> wrote:

On Tue, 17 Aug 2004 04:13:21 UTC, israel@... (Robert Israel) opined:

X-No-archive: yes
<MBernet@...> wrote:

Occasionally, according to Beider,
Avigdor was a kinnuy for Moshe (Moses).

I don't know if Beider mentions the reason for this kinnuy:
according to the Bible, the original Moshe was given that name by
Pharaoh's daughter. But logically his parents must have already given
him a name, which the Bible neglects to mention. According to midrash,
he had seven (or in other versions 10) such names, and one of them
was Avigdor. See e.g.
http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/view.jsp?artid=830&letter=M

Where do you find any of this, in the Bible or in the Encyclopedia? The
explanation you give, if true, is certainly not off-topic, for it would bear
on name tracing in recent generations, for example. But I don't see it in
either Breshit or the article to which you refer. It would be well, when
basing an argument on "the Bible" to give a reference to chapter and verse,
so that other users can verify it and make use of the information. I, for
one, would be very interested in knowing the basis for a connection between
"Moshe" and "Avigdor".

In that Jewish Encyclopedia article I referred to, see the paragraph
entitled "His Bringing up."

If you meant actually to refer to midrashim, it is hard to take them
seriously as unsupported statements of what name or names Moshe was called
by. One has to distinguish between exegetic Talmudic explanations and
Biblical ones coming out of an attempt to record "history" as it was
perceived in pre-dispersion Israel.

I am not claiming that the midrashim should be taken as literally true.
It wouldn't bother me even if you don't want to believe that Moshe existed
at all. All I'm saying is that when people (not in biblical times, but
perhaps a few hundred years ago) used Avigdor as a kinnuy for Moshe, these
midrashim are the source for that connection.

Robert Israel
israel@...
Vancouver, BC, Canada

In article <uViCr8LlbtmJ-pn2-XgzWybWcQe52@poblano>,
Stan Goodman <SPAM_FOILER@...> wrote:

On Tue, 17 Aug 2004 04:13:21 UTC, israel@... (Robert Israel) opined:

X-No-archive: yes
<MBernet@...> wrote:

Occasionally, according to Beider,
Avigdor was a kinnuy for Moshe (Moses).

I don't know if Beider mentions the reason for this kinnuy:
according to the Bible, the original Moshe was given that name by
Pharaoh's daughter. But logically his parents must have already given
him a name, which the Bible neglects to mention. According to midrash,
he had seven (or in other versions 10) such names, and one of them
was Avigdor. See e.g.
http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/view.jsp?artid=830&letter=M

Where do you find any of this, in the Bible or in the Encyclopedia? The
explanation you give, if true, is certainly not off-topic, for it would bear
on name tracing in recent generations, for example. But I don't see it in
either Breshit or the article to which you refer. It would be well, when
basing an argument on "the Bible" to give a reference to chapter and verse,
so that other users can verify it and make use of the information. I, for
one, would be very interested in knowing the basis for a connection between
"Moshe" and "Avigdor".

In that Jewish Encyclopedia article I referred to, see the paragraph
entitled "His Bringing up."

If you meant actually to refer to midrashim, it is hard to take them
seriously as unsupported statements of what name or names Moshe was called
by. One has to distinguish between exegetic Talmudic explanations and
Biblical ones coming out of an attempt to record "history" as it was
perceived in pre-dispersion Israel.

I am not claiming that the midrashim should be taken as literally true.
It wouldn't bother me even if you don't want to believe that Moshe existed
at all. All I'm saying is that when people (not in biblical times, but
perhaps a few hundred years ago) used Avigdor as a kinnuy for Moshe, these
midrashim are the source for that connection.

Robert Israel
israel@...
Vancouver, BC, Canada

In article <fb.5ea3514d.2e53ebe0@...>, <MBernet@...> wrote:

In a message dated 8/17/2004 12:05:33 AM Eastern Standard Time,
israel@... writes:

. . . I don't know if Beider mentions the reason for this kinnuy:
according to the Bible, the original Moshe was given that name by
Pharaoh's daughter. But logically his parents must have already given
him a name, which the Bible neglects to mention. According to midrash,
he had seven (or in other versions 10) such names, and one of them
was Avigdor.

The name Avigdor appears in Chronicles as Avi Goder, father of Goder (a man's
name), many centuries after the death of Moses. The various names imputed to
Moshe Rabbeinu are listed in the Talmud, Megillah. Logically (or at least by
applying Occam's razor), since the Bible doesn't mention any Hebrew name we
must assume he had none or it *would* have been mentioned. It is doubtful that
Moses even knew he was an Israelite until the revelation enveloping the events
that forced him to flee Egypt.

This may be getting rather far away >from the subject of genealogy. I
was trying to explain how Avigdor could become a kinnuy for Moshe, and
I believe I stated the reason correctly. I was not claiming that Avigdor
was Moshe's _actual_ Hebrew name, only that this was one of those on
the traditional list.

As far as Occam's razor is concerned, there are lots of details the Bible
leaves out, including lots of names. I would assume that anybody that the
Bible just calls, say, "a man", without giving the name, actually did have
a name.

He had not been circumcised until adulthood (on his return to Egypt >from
Midian, as the Torah clearly informs us) and >from Exodus 2:2 it appears he was
placed in the Nile for his safety three months after his birth. I would have
said that his circumcision was delayed because his father Amram was away as a
slave, but the Midrash states that no Levites (Moses was a great-granson
of Levi)
were pressed into slavery. The delay in circumcision would thus have been to
avoid his being recognized as an Israelite and killed by the Egyptians.

According the Midrash, Moshe was born without a foreskin. The Torah
says Zipporah circumcised her son, not Moshe, during the return from
Midian.

If you take another look at the biblical account, you'll notice that
Pharaoh's daughter giving Moshe his name doesn't come until the end of
Exodus 2:10, after "So the woman [his mother] took the boy and nursed
him. And the boy grew up and she brought him to the daughter of
Pharaoh..." If the text's sequence of events is to be taken literally,
he's not getting called Moshe until he's two or three years old (a
typical age for a child to be weaned in those days). That's a long
time to go without a name.

Robert Israel
israel@...
Vancouver, BC, Canada

MODERATOR NOTE: Responses relating to the actual use of Avigdor as a
kinnuy for Moshe will be considered for posting. Discussions of the
Biblical origins of these names will not, unless there is a clear and
direct connection to genealogy.

In article <fb.5ea3514d.2e53ebe0@...>, <MBernet@...> wrote:

In a message dated 8/17/2004 12:05:33 AM Eastern Standard Time,
israel@... writes:

. . . I don't know if Beider mentions the reason for this kinnuy:
according to the Bible, the original Moshe was given that name by
Pharaoh's daughter. But logically his parents must have already given
him a name, which the Bible neglects to mention. According to midrash,
he had seven (or in other versions 10) such names, and one of them
was Avigdor.

The name Avigdor appears in Chronicles as Avi Goder, father of Goder (a man's
name), many centuries after the death of Moses. The various names imputed to
Moshe Rabbeinu are listed in the Talmud, Megillah. Logically (or at least by
applying Occam's razor), since the Bible doesn't mention any Hebrew name we
must assume he had none or it *would* have been mentioned. It is doubtful that
Moses even knew he was an Israelite until the revelation enveloping the events
that forced him to flee Egypt.

This may be getting rather far away >from the subject of genealogy. I
was trying to explain how Avigdor could become a kinnuy for Moshe, and
I believe I stated the reason correctly. I was not claiming that Avigdor
was Moshe's _actual_ Hebrew name, only that this was one of those on
the traditional list.

As far as Occam's razor is concerned, there are lots of details the Bible
leaves out, including lots of names. I would assume that anybody that the
Bible just calls, say, "a man", without giving the name, actually did have
a name.

He had not been circumcised until adulthood (on his return to Egypt >from
Midian, as the Torah clearly informs us) and >from Exodus 2:2 it appears he was
placed in the Nile for his safety three months after his birth. I would have
said that his circumcision was delayed because his father Amram was away as a
slave, but the Midrash states that no Levites (Moses was a great-granson
of Levi)
were pressed into slavery. The delay in circumcision would thus have been to
avoid his being recognized as an Israelite and killed by the Egyptians.

According the Midrash, Moshe was born without a foreskin. The Torah
says Zipporah circumcised her son, not Moshe, during the return from
Midian.

If you take another look at the biblical account, you'll notice that
Pharaoh's daughter giving Moshe his name doesn't come until the end of
Exodus 2:10, after "So the woman [his mother] took the boy and nursed
him. And the boy grew up and she brought him to the daughter of
Pharaoh..." If the text's sequence of events is to be taken literally,
he's not getting called Moshe until he's two or three years old (a
typical age for a child to be weaned in those days). That's a long
time to go without a name.

Robert Israel
israel@...
Vancouver, BC, Canada

MODERATOR NOTE: Responses relating to the actual use of Avigdor as a
kinnuy for Moshe will be considered for posting. Discussions of the
Biblical origins of these names will not, unless there is a clear and
direct connection to genealogy.

My Jewish names are Fischel (Yiddish) and Eliezer. Make what you will of
that.

I will shortly be making aliyah and my new address will be Netanya, Israel.

David Kravitz
Bournemouth, England

My Jewish names are Fischel (Yiddish) and Eliezer. Make what you will of
that.

I will shortly be making aliyah and my new address will be Netanya, Israel.

David Kravitz
Bournemouth, England

It would be a mistake to assume that any Hebrew name matches
any particular secular (English, German, etc.) name. For
example, my grandfather and my wife's grandfather were both
called "Leon", but one was "Laib" in Yiddish and the other
was "Lazar." I had a high school classmate whose Hebrew name
was Mordechai and whose English name was Gary. One can simply
never guess at these things.

Actually, Shlomo, that's not so! There are a great many genuine
correspondences. so it is quite realistic to make an informed guess.
True, people don't always use the truly corresponding name
nowadays; they more often settle fora non-corresponding soundalike
and sometimes not even that. But that is due in large part to the
ignorance of contemporary Jews when it comes to classical Hebrew and
Yiddish and does not mean that no genuine correspondences exist --
so it's often worth taking a stab at it. For instance, ! have yet
to meet any Jewish boy named William whose Hebrew name is not Ze'ev.
That's because Ze'ev means wolf, and the switch >from Yiddish Wolf to
English William seems to have becomeabsolutely standard. You can more
or less bank on that one!

In fact, you yourself gave us examples of one true correspondence and
one non-correspoondence. Leon and Leib represent a genuine
correspondence, because both names mean "lion." But Leon and
Lazar do not correspond in any way, because Lazar is simply
corruption of the biblical name El'azar, which has nothing whatever
to do with lions.

Judith Romney Wegner
jrw@...

It would be a mistake to assume that any Hebrew name matches
any particular secular (English, German, etc.) name. For
example, my grandfather and my wife's grandfather were both
called "Leon", but one was "Laib" in Yiddish and the other
was "Lazar." I had a high school classmate whose Hebrew name
was Mordechai and whose English name was Gary. One can simply
never guess at these things.

Actually, Shlomo, that's not so! There are a great many genuine
correspondences. so it is quite realistic to make an informed guess.
True, people don't always use the truly corresponding name
nowadays; they more often settle fora non-corresponding soundalike
and sometimes not even that. But that is due in large part to the
ignorance of contemporary Jews when it comes to classical Hebrew and
Yiddish and does not mean that no genuine correspondences exist --
so it's often worth taking a stab at it. For instance, ! have yet
to meet any Jewish boy named William whose Hebrew name is not Ze'ev.
That's because Ze'ev means wolf, and the switch >from Yiddish Wolf to
English William seems to have becomeabsolutely standard. You can more
or less bank on that one!

In fact, you yourself gave us examples of one true correspondence and
one non-correspoondence. Leon and Leib represent a genuine
correspondence, because both names mean "lion." But Leon and
Lazar do not correspond in any way, because Lazar is simply
corruption of the biblical name El'azar, which has nothing whatever
to do with lions.

Judith Romney Wegner
jrw@...

Regarding finding of a grave in Israel, I would contact the Chevrah
Kedushah in Jerusalem who may be able to help. I have a telephone number
for them but I'm not sure of the prefix. The number is 972-2-538-4144.
There is also available a burial record for everyone buried on the Mount
of Olives >from 1760-1906. This is probably not a good source for you
since your relative died after that date.

All of you who are trying to find relatives buried on the M of O might
try to contact Mathilde Tagger of Jerusalem. She delivered a
presentation at the 24th IAJSG Conference in July.

Stan Finkelstein

MODERATOR NOTE: Mathilde Tagger's e-mail address can be found in the
JewishGen Discussion Group Archives at
http://data.jewishgen.org/wconnect/wc.dll%3fjg~jgsys~archpop

Regarding finding of a grave in Israel, I would contact the Chevrah
Kedushah in Jerusalem who may be able to help. I have a telephone number
for them but I'm not sure of the prefix. The number is 972-2-538-4144.
There is also available a burial record for everyone buried on the Mount
of Olives >from 1760-1906. This is probably not a good source for you
since your relative died after that date.

All of you who are trying to find relatives buried on the M of O might
try to contact Mathilde Tagger of Jerusalem. She delivered a
presentation at the 24th IAJSG Conference in July.

Stan Finkelstein

MODERATOR NOTE: Mathilde Tagger's e-mail address can be found in the
JewishGen Discussion Group Archives at
http://data.jewishgen.org/wconnect/wc.dll%3fjg~jgsys~archpop