Within the Jewish legal literature, there is an entire genre
of books known as "Shemot Gittin" (literally, "Names in Divorce
Documents.") "Halachah" (Jewish law) places a premium on the
correct identification and spelling of the husband and wife's
names in a "Get" (divorce document). Accordingly, many medieval
and later authorities researched the origins of nicknames and
wrote books about them. These books can be useful sources for
discovering the origin of Yiddish, Russian, Polish, Ladino and
Arabic nicknames. Of course, these books are always in Hebrew
and require some ability to read halachic literature.
I hope this helps someone.
Shlomo Katz
Silver Spring Maryland

Within the Jewish legal literature, there is an entire genre
of books known as "Shemot Gittin" (literally, "Names in Divorce
Documents.") "Halachah" (Jewish law) places a premium on the
correct identification and spelling of the husband and wife's
names in a "Get" (divorce document). Accordingly, many medieval
and later authorities researched the origins of nicknames and
wrote books about them. These books can be useful sources for
discovering the origin of Yiddish, Russian, Polish, Ladino and
Arabic nicknames. Of course, these books are always in Hebrew
and require some ability to read halachic literature.
I hope this helps someone.
Shlomo Katz
Silver Spring Maryland

In article <uViCr8LlbtmJ-pn2-XgzWybWcQe52@poblano>,
Stan Goodman <SPAM_FOILER@...> wrote:

On Tue, 17 Aug 2004 04:13:21 UTC, israel@... (Robert Israel) opined:

X-No-archive: yes
<MBernet@...> wrote:

Occasionally, according to Beider,
Avigdor was a kinnuy for Moshe (Moses).

I don't know if Beider mentions the reason for this kinnuy:
according to the Bible, the original Moshe was given that name by
Pharaoh's daughter. But logically his parents must have already given
him a name, which the Bible neglects to mention. According to midrash,
he had seven (or in other versions 10) such names, and one of them
was Avigdor. See e.g.
http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/view.jsp?artid=830&letter=M

Where do you find any of this, in the Bible or in the Encyclopedia? The
explanation you give, if true, is certainly not off-topic, for it would bear
on name tracing in recent generations, for example. But I don't see it in
either Breshit or the article to which you refer. It would be well, when
basing an argument on "the Bible" to give a reference to chapter and verse,
so that other users can verify it and make use of the information. I, for
one, would be very interested in knowing the basis for a connection between
"Moshe" and "Avigdor".

In that Jewish Encyclopedia article I referred to, see the paragraph
entitled "His Bringing up."

If you meant actually to refer to midrashim, it is hard to take them
seriously as unsupported statements of what name or names Moshe was called
by. One has to distinguish between exegetic Talmudic explanations and
Biblical ones coming out of an attempt to record "history" as it was
perceived in pre-dispersion Israel.

I am not claiming that the midrashim should be taken as literally true.
It wouldn't bother me even if you don't want to believe that Moshe existed
at all. All I'm saying is that when people (not in biblical times, but
perhaps a few hundred years ago) used Avigdor as a kinnuy for Moshe, these
midrashim are the source for that connection.

Robert Israel
israel@...
Vancouver, BC, Canada

In article <uViCr8LlbtmJ-pn2-XgzWybWcQe52@poblano>,
Stan Goodman <SPAM_FOILER@...> wrote:

On Tue, 17 Aug 2004 04:13:21 UTC, israel@... (Robert Israel) opined:

X-No-archive: yes
<MBernet@...> wrote:

Occasionally, according to Beider,
Avigdor was a kinnuy for Moshe (Moses).

I don't know if Beider mentions the reason for this kinnuy:
according to the Bible, the original Moshe was given that name by
Pharaoh's daughter. But logically his parents must have already given
him a name, which the Bible neglects to mention. According to midrash,
he had seven (or in other versions 10) such names, and one of them
was Avigdor. See e.g.
http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/view.jsp?artid=830&letter=M

Where do you find any of this, in the Bible or in the Encyclopedia? The
explanation you give, if true, is certainly not off-topic, for it would bear
on name tracing in recent generations, for example. But I don't see it in
either Breshit or the article to which you refer. It would be well, when
basing an argument on "the Bible" to give a reference to chapter and verse,
so that other users can verify it and make use of the information. I, for
one, would be very interested in knowing the basis for a connection between
"Moshe" and "Avigdor".

In that Jewish Encyclopedia article I referred to, see the paragraph
entitled "His Bringing up."

If you meant actually to refer to midrashim, it is hard to take them
seriously as unsupported statements of what name or names Moshe was called
by. One has to distinguish between exegetic Talmudic explanations and
Biblical ones coming out of an attempt to record "history" as it was
perceived in pre-dispersion Israel.

I am not claiming that the midrashim should be taken as literally true.
It wouldn't bother me even if you don't want to believe that Moshe existed
at all. All I'm saying is that when people (not in biblical times, but
perhaps a few hundred years ago) used Avigdor as a kinnuy for Moshe, these
midrashim are the source for that connection.

Robert Israel
israel@...
Vancouver, BC, Canada

In article <fb.5ea3514d.2e53ebe0@...>, <MBernet@...> wrote:

In a message dated 8/17/2004 12:05:33 AM Eastern Standard Time,
israel@... writes:

. . . I don't know if Beider mentions the reason for this kinnuy:
according to the Bible, the original Moshe was given that name by
Pharaoh's daughter. But logically his parents must have already given
him a name, which the Bible neglects to mention. According to midrash,
he had seven (or in other versions 10) such names, and one of them
was Avigdor.

The name Avigdor appears in Chronicles as Avi Goder, father of Goder (a man's
name), many centuries after the death of Moses. The various names imputed to
Moshe Rabbeinu are listed in the Talmud, Megillah. Logically (or at least by
applying Occam's razor), since the Bible doesn't mention any Hebrew name we
must assume he had none or it *would* have been mentioned. It is doubtful that
Moses even knew he was an Israelite until the revelation enveloping the events
that forced him to flee Egypt.

This may be getting rather far away >from the subject of genealogy. I
was trying to explain how Avigdor could become a kinnuy for Moshe, and
I believe I stated the reason correctly. I was not claiming that Avigdor
was Moshe's _actual_ Hebrew name, only that this was one of those on
the traditional list.

As far as Occam's razor is concerned, there are lots of details the Bible
leaves out, including lots of names. I would assume that anybody that the
Bible just calls, say, "a man", without giving the name, actually did have
a name.

He had not been circumcised until adulthood (on his return to Egypt >from
Midian, as the Torah clearly informs us) and >from Exodus 2:2 it appears he was
placed in the Nile for his safety three months after his birth. I would have
said that his circumcision was delayed because his father Amram was away as a
slave, but the Midrash states that no Levites (Moses was a great-granson
of Levi)
were pressed into slavery. The delay in circumcision would thus have been to
avoid his being recognized as an Israelite and killed by the Egyptians.

According the Midrash, Moshe was born without a foreskin. The Torah
says Zipporah circumcised her son, not Moshe, during the return from
Midian.

If you take another look at the biblical account, you'll notice that
Pharaoh's daughter giving Moshe his name doesn't come until the end of
Exodus 2:10, after "So the woman [his mother] took the boy and nursed
him. And the boy grew up and she brought him to the daughter of
Pharaoh..." If the text's sequence of events is to be taken literally,
he's not getting called Moshe until he's two or three years old (a
typical age for a child to be weaned in those days). That's a long
time to go without a name.

Robert Israel
israel@...
Vancouver, BC, Canada

MODERATOR NOTE: Responses relating to the actual use of Avigdor as a
kinnuy for Moshe will be considered for posting. Discussions of the
Biblical origins of these names will not, unless there is a clear and
direct connection to genealogy.

In article <fb.5ea3514d.2e53ebe0@...>, <MBernet@...> wrote:

In a message dated 8/17/2004 12:05:33 AM Eastern Standard Time,
israel@... writes:

. . . I don't know if Beider mentions the reason for this kinnuy:
according to the Bible, the original Moshe was given that name by
Pharaoh's daughter. But logically his parents must have already given
him a name, which the Bible neglects to mention. According to midrash,
he had seven (or in other versions 10) such names, and one of them
was Avigdor.

The name Avigdor appears in Chronicles as Avi Goder, father of Goder (a man's
name), many centuries after the death of Moses. The various names imputed to
Moshe Rabbeinu are listed in the Talmud, Megillah. Logically (or at least by
applying Occam's razor), since the Bible doesn't mention any Hebrew name we
must assume he had none or it *would* have been mentioned. It is doubtful that
Moses even knew he was an Israelite until the revelation enveloping the events
that forced him to flee Egypt.

This may be getting rather far away >from the subject of genealogy. I
was trying to explain how Avigdor could become a kinnuy for Moshe, and
I believe I stated the reason correctly. I was not claiming that Avigdor
was Moshe's _actual_ Hebrew name, only that this was one of those on
the traditional list.

As far as Occam's razor is concerned, there are lots of details the Bible
leaves out, including lots of names. I would assume that anybody that the
Bible just calls, say, "a man", without giving the name, actually did have
a name.

He had not been circumcised until adulthood (on his return to Egypt >from
Midian, as the Torah clearly informs us) and >from Exodus 2:2 it appears he was
placed in the Nile for his safety three months after his birth. I would have
said that his circumcision was delayed because his father Amram was away as a
slave, but the Midrash states that no Levites (Moses was a great-granson
of Levi)
were pressed into slavery. The delay in circumcision would thus have been to
avoid his being recognized as an Israelite and killed by the Egyptians.

According the Midrash, Moshe was born without a foreskin. The Torah
says Zipporah circumcised her son, not Moshe, during the return from
Midian.

If you take another look at the biblical account, you'll notice that
Pharaoh's daughter giving Moshe his name doesn't come until the end of
Exodus 2:10, after "So the woman [his mother] took the boy and nursed
him. And the boy grew up and she brought him to the daughter of
Pharaoh..." If the text's sequence of events is to be taken literally,
he's not getting called Moshe until he's two or three years old (a
typical age for a child to be weaned in those days). That's a long
time to go without a name.

Robert Israel
israel@...
Vancouver, BC, Canada

MODERATOR NOTE: Responses relating to the actual use of Avigdor as a
kinnuy for Moshe will be considered for posting. Discussions of the
Biblical origins of these names will not, unless there is a clear and
direct connection to genealogy.

My Jewish names are Fischel (Yiddish) and Eliezer. Make what you will of
that.

I will shortly be making aliyah and my new address will be Netanya, Israel.

David Kravitz
Bournemouth, England

My Jewish names are Fischel (Yiddish) and Eliezer. Make what you will of
that.

I will shortly be making aliyah and my new address will be Netanya, Israel.

David Kravitz
Bournemouth, England

It would be a mistake to assume that any Hebrew name matches
any particular secular (English, German, etc.) name. For
example, my grandfather and my wife's grandfather were both
called "Leon", but one was "Laib" in Yiddish and the other
was "Lazar." I had a high school classmate whose Hebrew name
was Mordechai and whose English name was Gary. One can simply
never guess at these things.

Actually, Shlomo, that's not so! There are a great many genuine
correspondences. so it is quite realistic to make an informed guess.
True, people don't always use the truly corresponding name
nowadays; they more often settle fora non-corresponding soundalike
and sometimes not even that. But that is due in large part to the
ignorance of contemporary Jews when it comes to classical Hebrew and
Yiddish and does not mean that no genuine correspondences exist --
so it's often worth taking a stab at it. For instance, ! have yet
to meet any Jewish boy named William whose Hebrew name is not Ze'ev.
That's because Ze'ev means wolf, and the switch >from Yiddish Wolf to
English William seems to have becomeabsolutely standard. You can more
or less bank on that one!

In fact, you yourself gave us examples of one true correspondence and
one non-correspoondence. Leon and Leib represent a genuine
correspondence, because both names mean "lion." But Leon and
Lazar do not correspond in any way, because Lazar is simply
corruption of the biblical name El'azar, which has nothing whatever
to do with lions.

Judith Romney Wegner
jrw@...

It would be a mistake to assume that any Hebrew name matches
any particular secular (English, German, etc.) name. For
example, my grandfather and my wife's grandfather were both
called "Leon", but one was "Laib" in Yiddish and the other
was "Lazar." I had a high school classmate whose Hebrew name
was Mordechai and whose English name was Gary. One can simply
never guess at these things.

Actually, Shlomo, that's not so! There are a great many genuine
correspondences. so it is quite realistic to make an informed guess.
True, people don't always use the truly corresponding name
nowadays; they more often settle fora non-corresponding soundalike
and sometimes not even that. But that is due in large part to the
ignorance of contemporary Jews when it comes to classical Hebrew and
Yiddish and does not mean that no genuine correspondences exist --
so it's often worth taking a stab at it. For instance, ! have yet
to meet any Jewish boy named William whose Hebrew name is not Ze'ev.
That's because Ze'ev means wolf, and the switch >from Yiddish Wolf to
English William seems to have becomeabsolutely standard. You can more
or less bank on that one!

In fact, you yourself gave us examples of one true correspondence and
one non-correspoondence. Leon and Leib represent a genuine
correspondence, because both names mean "lion." But Leon and
Lazar do not correspond in any way, because Lazar is simply
corruption of the biblical name El'azar, which has nothing whatever
to do with lions.

Judith Romney Wegner
jrw@...

Regarding finding of a grave in Israel, I would contact the Chevrah
Kedushah in Jerusalem who may be able to help. I have a telephone number
for them but I'm not sure of the prefix. The number is 972-2-538-4144.
There is also available a burial record for everyone buried on the Mount
of Olives >from 1760-1906. This is probably not a good source for you
since your relative died after that date.

All of you who are trying to find relatives buried on the M of O might
try to contact Mathilde Tagger of Jerusalem. She delivered a
presentation at the 24th IAJSG Conference in July.

Stan Finkelstein

MODERATOR NOTE: Mathilde Tagger's e-mail address can be found in the
JewishGen Discussion Group Archives at
http://data.jewishgen.org/wconnect/wc.dll%3fjg~jgsys~archpop

Regarding finding of a grave in Israel, I would contact the Chevrah
Kedushah in Jerusalem who may be able to help. I have a telephone number
for them but I'm not sure of the prefix. The number is 972-2-538-4144.
There is also available a burial record for everyone buried on the Mount
of Olives >from 1760-1906. This is probably not a good source for you
since your relative died after that date.

All of you who are trying to find relatives buried on the M of O might
try to contact Mathilde Tagger of Jerusalem. She delivered a
presentation at the 24th IAJSG Conference in July.

Stan Finkelstein

MODERATOR NOTE: Mathilde Tagger's e-mail address can be found in the
JewishGen Discussion Group Archives at
http://data.jewishgen.org/wconnect/wc.dll%3fjg~jgsys~archpop

Perhaps some clarification is needed about what the Pinkas HaKehillot
is as well as the translation efforts of the Yizkor Book Project.

1) the Pinkas HaKehillot is a multi-volume encyclopedia of Jewish
communities, written in Hebrew and published by Yad Vashem. The
subheading for the two volumes devoted to the Romania area is
"Encyclopedia of the Jewish Communities of Romania." Volume 1,
indexed at
http://www2.jewishgen.org/Yizkor/pinkas_romania/pinkas_romania1.htm,
includes towns in Romania and Southern Transylvania. Volume 2,
indexed at
http://www2.jewishgen.org/Yizkor/pinkas_romania/pinkas_romania2.html,
includes towns in Northern Transylvania, Bessarabia, and Bukovina.

2) The index page for all yizkor book translations at
http://www2.jewishgen.org/Yizkor/translations.html lists Pinkasim for
Poland (seven volumes), Hungary, Lithuania, Latvia, Greece, Slovakia,
and Yugoslavia. These can easily be accessed under the subheading of
Regions.

3) We accept translations of complete chapters only. The translator
is responsible for getting a photocopy of the chapter >from a major
library which has a copy of the Pinkas HaKehillot collection. Mr.
Sherins is lucky to live close enough to UCLA to have got his copies
of this huge multi-volume encyclopedia there.

4) The procedure is to secure a copy of the chapter and to inform me
of the town you wish to translate, including the volume and page
number of the chapter as well as its geographical coordinates (as
there are many towns with the same name!). I then get permission

from Yad Vashem and notify you when you can begin the translation.

The translation is to be submitted to me as an email attachment in MS
WORD and a donor agreement is to be sent to me by snail mail or fax.
The donor agreement can be printed at
http://www.jewishgen.org/Yizkor/donation/form1.html.

5) We have over 600 entries on the yizkor book page and we would be
most grateful to receive more translations >from the Romanian volumes
of Pinkas HaKehillot.

I do hope that this clarifies some of the confusion about our project.

Joyce Field
Yizkor Book Project Manager
jfield@...

Perhaps some clarification is needed about what the Pinkas HaKehillot
is as well as the translation efforts of the Yizkor Book Project.

1) the Pinkas HaKehillot is a multi-volume encyclopedia of Jewish
communities, written in Hebrew and published by Yad Vashem. The
subheading for the two volumes devoted to the Romania area is
"Encyclopedia of the Jewish Communities of Romania." Volume 1,
indexed at
http://www2.jewishgen.org/Yizkor/pinkas_romania/pinkas_romania1.htm,
includes towns in Romania and Southern Transylvania. Volume 2,
indexed at
http://www2.jewishgen.org/Yizkor/pinkas_romania/pinkas_romania2.html,
includes towns in Northern Transylvania, Bessarabia, and Bukovina.

2) The index page for all yizkor book translations at
http://www2.jewishgen.org/Yizkor/translations.html lists Pinkasim for
Poland (seven volumes), Hungary, Lithuania, Latvia, Greece, Slovakia,
and Yugoslavia. These can easily be accessed under the subheading of
Regions.

3) We accept translations of complete chapters only. The translator
is responsible for getting a photocopy of the chapter >from a major
library which has a copy of the Pinkas HaKehillot collection. Mr.
Sherins is lucky to live close enough to UCLA to have got his copies
of this huge multi-volume encyclopedia there.

4) The procedure is to secure a copy of the chapter and to inform me
of the town you wish to translate, including the volume and page
number of the chapter as well as its geographical coordinates (as
there are many towns with the same name!). I then get permission

from Yad Vashem and notify you when you can begin the translation.

The translation is to be submitted to me as an email attachment in MS
WORD and a donor agreement is to be sent to me by snail mail or fax.
The donor agreement can be printed at
http://www.jewishgen.org/Yizkor/donation/form1.html.

5) We have over 600 entries on the yizkor book page and we would be
most grateful to receive more translations >from the Romanian volumes
of Pinkas HaKehillot.

I do hope that this clarifies some of the confusion about our project.

Joyce Field
Yizkor Book Project Manager
jfield@...

I am trying to understand where my family came >from in Romania.

They came under the names BRALOWER/BRALVER/BROLIVER. In fact, I found that
every single person with this name in the United States is related to me. While
I found everyone in the US, I'm not sure where to look in Romania. The problem
is that I'm not sure where they came >from in Romania.

Each member of the family listed a different place. I was always told they came

from Bucharest. My mother said that her grandmother told her that she came
from there.

Here is what different members of the family had listed for their place of
residence or place of birth in their Ellis Island records.
Morris -- Dorohoj (place of residence -- ship's passenger list)
Samuel -- Bovsiany (place of residence -- ship's passenger list) [Botosani]
Simon -- Betosany (passenger list) [Botosani]
Adolph -- Dulcesh/Dulcesti/Bulcesti? (place of residence -- original passenger
list)
-- Crawa/Craiva (place of residence -- subsequent passenger list)
-- Botnvani (place of birth -- subsequent passenger list) [Botosani]
-- Craiora (place of birth -- subsequent passenger list)
-- Bukarest (place of birth -- subsequent passenger list) [Bucharest]
The other family members records do not list the city of origin.

How can I confirm where they are from? How can I find records in Romania to
prove this?

The matriarch of the family, my g-g-g-grandmother had the maiden name WEINER.

Thanks,
David

MODERATOR NOTE: One of JewishGen's most heavily visited sites is the JewishGen
Family Finder (JGFF) and family connections are being made more and more
frequently. If you have not already done so, please log onto
www.jewishgen.org/jgff and using the ENTER/MODIFY procedure enter and register
all the surnames of interest to your family research. As you learn about more
names and places of origin, they can always be added, but only **you** can keep
your own listings up to date.

And please always sign you messages with you full name and place of residence(city,
state or country)

I am trying to understand where my family came >from in Romania.

They came under the names BRALOWER/BRALVER/BROLIVER. In fact, I found that
every single person with this name in the United States is related to me. While
I found everyone in the US, I'm not sure where to look in Romania. The problem
is that I'm not sure where they came >from in Romania.

Each member of the family listed a different place. I was always told they came

from Bucharest. My mother said that her grandmother told her that she came
from there.

Here is what different members of the family had listed for their place of
residence or place of birth in their Ellis Island records.
Morris -- Dorohoj (place of residence -- ship's passenger list)
Samuel -- Bovsiany (place of residence -- ship's passenger list) [Botosani]
Simon -- Betosany (passenger list) [Botosani]
Adolph -- Dulcesh/Dulcesti/Bulcesti? (place of residence -- original passenger
list)
-- Crawa/Craiva (place of residence -- subsequent passenger list)
-- Botnvani (place of birth -- subsequent passenger list) [Botosani]
-- Craiora (place of birth -- subsequent passenger list)
-- Bukarest (place of birth -- subsequent passenger list) [Bucharest]
The other family members records do not list the city of origin.

How can I confirm where they are from? How can I find records in Romania to
prove this?

The matriarch of the family, my g-g-g-grandmother had the maiden name WEINER.

Thanks,
David

MODERATOR NOTE: One of JewishGen's most heavily visited sites is the JewishGen
Family Finder (JGFF) and family connections are being made more and more
frequently. If you have not already done so, please log onto
www.jewishgen.org/jgff and using the ENTER/MODIFY procedure enter and register
all the surnames of interest to your family research. As you learn about more
names and places of origin, they can always be added, but only **you** can keep
your own listings up to date.

And please always sign you messages with you full name and place of residence(city,
state or country)

Dear Darlene Ehrenberg et al,

I wasn't sure >from your post where in Ukraine the Yaruga caves are.
On Google, I couldn't find much for "Yaruga" caves except the
geological report at the end of the links listed below, and lots for
Yuruga caves in Australia. But I recalled recently seeing an article
on a situation such as your family's, one most of us weren't familiar
with, and was able to find it.

These might not be the caves you refer to, but the detailed
experiences in these articles may be of great interest as you search
for your specific caves. (Nor did I check the names so I can't say
if your family names appeared.) The two National Geographic links are
to two different articles on the same place.

http://www.nationalgeographic.com/adventure/0406/excerpt4.html
http://www.nationalgeographic.com/adventure/0406/q_n_a.html
http://www.thecommunicator.org/julyaugust04/caveman.htm
http://www.nydailynews.com/front/story/198726p-171554c.html
http://expo.vin.com.ua/en/main/geology

Distant relatives of mine hid in the forests around Minkovtsi in
S-western Ukraine, and I've heard one or two stories about that. But
I can't recall caves, which would have been much more dreadful.

I hope the links above are of some use. You may want too search
Google and Yahoo, not to mention JewishGen for "Holocaust survivors
caves" or similar. Best wishes for good luck.

Michelle Frager, NY area
http://www.shtetlinks.jewishgen.org/snitkov/ShtetLinksSnitkov_Index.htm
TREIGER (FRAGER), SIROTA, ZEKTSER, BRONSHTEIN, SIBELBERG (not
Silberberg), in Ukraine/Bess.
WOLFSON, FRAKT, KLAVIR in Belarus/Lith.


--- alicebg@... wrote: ----------------------------

Dear Darlene Ehrenberg et al,

I wasn't sure >from your post where in Ukraine the Yaruga caves are.
On Google, I couldn't find much for "Yaruga" caves except the
geological report at the end of the links listed below, and lots for
Yuruga caves in Australia. But I recalled recently seeing an article
on a situation such as your family's, one most of us weren't familiar
with, and was able to find it.

These might not be the caves you refer to, but the detailed
experiences in these articles may be of great interest as you search
for your specific caves. (Nor did I check the names so I can't say
if your family names appeared.) The two National Geographic links are
to two different articles on the same place.

http://www.nationalgeographic.com/adventure/0406/excerpt4.html
http://www.nationalgeographic.com/adventure/0406/q_n_a.html
http://www.thecommunicator.org/julyaugust04/caveman.htm
http://www.nydailynews.com/front/story/198726p-171554c.html
http://expo.vin.com.ua/en/main/geology

Distant relatives of mine hid in the forests around Minkovtsi in
S-western Ukraine, and I've heard one or two stories about that. But
I can't recall caves, which would have been much more dreadful.

I hope the links above are of some use. You may want too search
Google and Yahoo, not to mention JewishGen for "Holocaust survivors
caves" or similar. Best wishes for good luck.

Michelle Frager, NY area
http://www.shtetlinks.jewishgen.org/snitkov/ShtetLinksSnitkov_Index.htm
TREIGER (FRAGER), SIROTA, ZEKTSER, BRONSHTEIN, SIBELBERG (not
Silberberg), in Ukraine/Bess.
WOLFSON, FRAKT, KLAVIR in Belarus/Lith.


--- alicebg@... wrote: ----------------------------

The source for generations 1 through 8 is "Otzar haGedolim"; burials
mentioned for Krakow are >from Balaban; the descendants of those from
generation 9 are >from Otzar haRabbanim

1. Rabbi Israel of Krems (14th century) author of HaGahot Asheri.
The story of Unetanna Tokef that we relate at Rosh HaShana with the
martyrdom of Amnon of Mainz was passed on through him and attributed
by him to Isaac of Vienna's Or Zarua.

2. Haim of Henborg

3. Rabbi Petatiah ASHKENAZI (13__-died by 1405) m. sister of Rabbi
Aaron BLUMLEIN(d.1421). Aaron's father is not known but he took his
surname >from his mother's name, Blumel or Plumel. Petatiah died
while his son was a minor. Petatiah's wife and her brother were
murdered March 12, 1421 in Neustadt. Aaron BLUMLEIN is also
described as one of the martyrs burned at Enns.

4. Rabbi Israel ISSERLIN II aka Israel MARBURGER (1390-1460) m.
Shandelin niece of Rabbi Sholom of Wiener-Neustat (he fl 1380) who
was the son of Rabbi Isaac Zakel who was the son of Rabbi Judah Katz
of Vienna. Judah Katz is said to be the son-in-law of Rabenu Sholom
the maternal grandson of Rabbi Baruch of Rothenburg.

Israel ISSERLIN is the subject of an English language biography in
Jewish Encyclopedia (see jewishencyclopedia.com). He was author of
Trumat haDarshan. He is thought to have been born at Regensburg,
educated in Neustadt at Aaron BLUMLEIN's Yeshiva, moved to Northern
Italy then to Marburg in Austria's Styria where he was the leading
rabbi >from 1427. In 1440s he returned to Neustadt where he lived
until his death in 1460s. He refers to his great-grandfather Israel
of Krems, his father Petatiah, his uncle Aaron BLUMLEIN ha Kadosh,
in his writings. He wrote over 250 responsa and was considered the
preeminent authority of his day.

5. Haim sometimes called Haim of Henborg II. See Note for Petatiah
GOLDMAN

6. Petatiah GOLDMAN also called Kokel Goldman (1480s)
This is a note >from the writer of this email, Deborah Glassman, not
to be blamed on any other source - but it would seem to be worth
confirming that Haim of Henborg and Petatiah Goldman were two
separate people. Israel ISSERLIN, the Trumat Darshan, lost his father
when he was a child. It would be expected that he named his first
son for that father Petatiah. The name of a man who died before he
was forty was in the seventeenth and eighteenth centuries (not
stating that this was necessarily so in the fifteenth century)
modified before giving it to an infant. Haim Petatiah would be one
of the typical forms found in later years. An original document with
both persons mentioned, or Petatiah mentioned after Haim is
described as deceased would be conclusive. Petatiah does not appear
in the cemetery in Krakow where his son's family is buried. Petatiah
is said to be named GOLDMAN >from the name of his wife, mother, or
mother-in-law. If he is identical to Haim son of Israel ISSERLIN,
then his mother would be Shandelin, but his wife and mother-in-law
still unaccounted for.

7. Joseph (sometimes written Joseph ISSERLIN) m.Gittel AUERBACH (she
d. 1552, buried Krakow) daughter of Moshe AUERBACH-ISERLIN and of
Moshe AUERBACH's wife Mushkat daughter of Israel ISERLIN (presumed
to be Israel ISSERLIN the Trumat Darshan). Moshe AUERBACH is said to
be the son of Tevele aka David a nephew of Rabbi Sholom of Vienna
(it is not clear in my notes if the note re Tevele is >from Otzar
Gedolim)

8. Israel aka Isserl Lazars aka Israel ISSERLIN (1490s-died 1553,
buried Krakow) m. Dina Malka Shrentzels called Malka (d.1552 buried
Krakow) daughter of Eliezer Shrentzels and Drusila/Dreisel Luria -
Dreisel d.1560 Krakow). Israel was a leading banker and merchant and
he built the synagogue called for his son the REMA synagogue.
[Had children including Moses ISSERLES, Isaac Bogatym,
Eliezer ISSERLES, Miriam Bella who married Pinchas HOROWITZ].

9. Rabbi Moshe ISSERLES 1520-1572
m1. Golda bat Shalom Shakna of Lublin (her dates 1532-1552,
buried Krakow cemetery)
m2. dtr of Mordechai Gershon Katz her father called Gershon,
her brother Joseph author of Sherit Yosef is frequently referred to
as Moses' brother-in-law.

10. Dreisel (Drusila) 1562-1602 m. Simha Bunem MEISELS (d.1624) The
Dreisel who is buried in Krakow Cemetery 1560 is Moses ISSERLES's
grandmother, not his daughter as sometimes attributed.

Dreisel bat Moshe ISSERLES is clearly the daughter of Ms. Katz, as
Moshe's first wife pre-deceased Dreisel's namesake great-grandmother

11. Rabbi Isaac Rabbi Bunems (died in Pinsk?) m. Miss ___ MEISELS
bat Abraham b. Joseph MEISELS (Abraham died Heshvan 1600) His wife
was also a MEISELS, daughter of Labe MEISELS

12. Rabbi Benjamin Wolf MEISELS aka Rabbi Wolf VILNER brother of
Moshe The Mahardura Batra

13.Yentil Leah MEISELS m. Rabbi Shabatei Kohen haSHiK (1621-1662)
Shabatei's children referenced in Otzar haRabanim: (The names of
the daughters are >from other sources)
a daughter Tuba who married Rabbi David KATBEN(she died Nisan
1717 in Zolkiew)
a daughter or sister who married Rabbi Isaac Kohen of the
EISENSTADT family, no surname used (the father of Meir, Pnei Meor),
[in Daat Kedoshim she is called Esther sister of Shabatei]. She is
Isaac EISENSTADT's 2nd wife, married in 1656 Vienna. If she is in
fact the daughter of Shabatei, she is also attriobuted with the
following marriage:
a daughter Esther who married Menahem Meinish CHAIT. The CHAITs
had a daughter who married Pinchas who in turn was the father-in-law
of Rabbi Hananiah Lipman MEISELS
a daughter Yochaved who married Rabbi Aaron MAGOZ-ZVI
a son Rabbi Moshe KATZ who married ITTINGER

Hope this helps.

Deborah Glassman
Elkins Park PA

Researching the rabbinical lines of Khmelnik including all of the
Avrum Dovs of Khmelnik, Yakov Yisrael HALPRIN of Khmelnik, Abraham
Isaac SOLOMON of Khmelnik; Shlomo Meir Tucker of Kovno guberniya;
Rabbi Avrum David ZABARSKA aka TRATSCHER of Ostropol; Rabbi Gedaliah
of Linetz.

The source for generations 1 through 8 is "Otzar haGedolim"; burials
mentioned for Krakow are >from Balaban; the descendants of those from
generation 9 are >from Otzar haRabbanim

1. Rabbi Israel of Krems (14th century) author of HaGahot Asheri.
The story of Unetanna Tokef that we relate at Rosh HaShana with the
martyrdom of Amnon of Mainz was passed on through him and attributed
by him to Isaac of Vienna's Or Zarua.

2. Haim of Henborg

3. Rabbi Petatiah ASHKENAZI (13__-died by 1405) m. sister of Rabbi
Aaron BLUMLEIN(d.1421). Aaron's father is not known but he took his
surname >from his mother's name, Blumel or Plumel. Petatiah died
while his son was a minor. Petatiah's wife and her brother were
murdered March 12, 1421 in Neustadt. Aaron BLUMLEIN is also
described as one of the martyrs burned at Enns.

4. Rabbi Israel ISSERLIN II aka Israel MARBURGER (1390-1460) m.
Shandelin niece of Rabbi Sholom of Wiener-Neustat (he fl 1380) who
was the son of Rabbi Isaac Zakel who was the son of Rabbi Judah Katz
of Vienna. Judah Katz is said to be the son-in-law of Rabenu Sholom
the maternal grandson of Rabbi Baruch of Rothenburg.

Israel ISSERLIN is the subject of an English language biography in
Jewish Encyclopedia (see jewishencyclopedia.com). He was author of
Trumat haDarshan. He is thought to have been born at Regensburg,
educated in Neustadt at Aaron BLUMLEIN's Yeshiva, moved to Northern
Italy then to Marburg in Austria's Styria where he was the leading
rabbi >from 1427. In 1440s he returned to Neustadt where he lived
until his death in 1460s. He refers to his great-grandfather Israel
of Krems, his father Petatiah, his uncle Aaron BLUMLEIN ha Kadosh,
in his writings. He wrote over 250 responsa and was considered the
preeminent authority of his day.

5. Haim sometimes called Haim of Henborg II. See Note for Petatiah
GOLDMAN

6. Petatiah GOLDMAN also called Kokel Goldman (1480s)
This is a note >from the writer of this email, Deborah Glassman, not
to be blamed on any other source - but it would seem to be worth
confirming that Haim of Henborg and Petatiah Goldman were two
separate people. Israel ISSERLIN, the Trumat Darshan, lost his father
when he was a child. It would be expected that he named his first
son for that father Petatiah. The name of a man who died before he
was forty was in the seventeenth and eighteenth centuries (not
stating that this was necessarily so in the fifteenth century)
modified before giving it to an infant. Haim Petatiah would be one
of the typical forms found in later years. An original document with
both persons mentioned, or Petatiah mentioned after Haim is
described as deceased would be conclusive. Petatiah does not appear
in the cemetery in Krakow where his son's family is buried. Petatiah
is said to be named GOLDMAN >from the name of his wife, mother, or
mother-in-law. If he is identical to Haim son of Israel ISSERLIN,
then his mother would be Shandelin, but his wife and mother-in-law
still unaccounted for.

7. Joseph (sometimes written Joseph ISSERLIN) m.Gittel AUERBACH (she
d. 1552, buried Krakow) daughter of Moshe AUERBACH-ISERLIN and of
Moshe AUERBACH's wife Mushkat daughter of Israel ISERLIN (presumed
to be Israel ISSERLIN the Trumat Darshan). Moshe AUERBACH is said to
be the son of Tevele aka David a nephew of Rabbi Sholom of Vienna
(it is not clear in my notes if the note re Tevele is >from Otzar
Gedolim)

8. Israel aka Isserl Lazars aka Israel ISSERLIN (1490s-died 1553,
buried Krakow) m. Dina Malka Shrentzels called Malka (d.1552 buried
Krakow) daughter of Eliezer Shrentzels and Drusila/Dreisel Luria -
Dreisel d.1560 Krakow). Israel was a leading banker and merchant and
he built the synagogue called for his son the REMA synagogue.
[Had children including Moses ISSERLES, Isaac Bogatym,
Eliezer ISSERLES, Miriam Bella who married Pinchas HOROWITZ].

9. Rabbi Moshe ISSERLES 1520-1572
m1. Golda bat Shalom Shakna of Lublin (her dates 1532-1552,
buried Krakow cemetery)
m2. dtr of Mordechai Gershon Katz her father called Gershon,
her brother Joseph author of Sherit Yosef is frequently referred to
as Moses' brother-in-law.

10. Dreisel (Drusila) 1562-1602 m. Simha Bunem MEISELS (d.1624) The
Dreisel who is buried in Krakow Cemetery 1560 is Moses ISSERLES's
grandmother, not his daughter as sometimes attributed.

Dreisel bat Moshe ISSERLES is clearly the daughter of Ms. Katz, as
Moshe's first wife pre-deceased Dreisel's namesake great-grandmother

11. Rabbi Isaac Rabbi Bunems (died in Pinsk?) m. Miss ___ MEISELS
bat Abraham b. Joseph MEISELS (Abraham died Heshvan 1600) His wife
was also a MEISELS, daughter of Labe MEISELS

12. Rabbi Benjamin Wolf MEISELS aka Rabbi Wolf VILNER brother of
Moshe The Mahardura Batra

13.Yentil Leah MEISELS m. Rabbi Shabatei Kohen haSHiK (1621-1662)
Shabatei's children referenced in Otzar haRabanim: (The names of
the daughters are >from other sources)
a daughter Tuba who married Rabbi David KATBEN(she died Nisan
1717 in Zolkiew)
a daughter or sister who married Rabbi Isaac Kohen of the
EISENSTADT family, no surname used (the father of Meir, Pnei Meor),
[in Daat Kedoshim she is called Esther sister of Shabatei]. She is
Isaac EISENSTADT's 2nd wife, married in 1656 Vienna. If she is in
fact the daughter of Shabatei, she is also attriobuted with the
following marriage:
a daughter Esther who married Menahem Meinish CHAIT. The CHAITs
had a daughter who married Pinchas who in turn was the father-in-law
of Rabbi Hananiah Lipman MEISELS
a daughter Yochaved who married Rabbi Aaron MAGOZ-ZVI
a son Rabbi Moshe KATZ who married ITTINGER

Hope this helps.

Deborah Glassman
Elkins Park PA

Researching the rabbinical lines of Khmelnik including all of the
Avrum Dovs of Khmelnik, Yakov Yisrael HALPRIN of Khmelnik, Abraham
Isaac SOLOMON of Khmelnik; Shlomo Meir Tucker of Kovno guberniya;
Rabbi Avrum David ZABARSKA aka TRATSCHER of Ostropol; Rabbi Gedaliah
of Linetz.