A question for our Ontario and Quebec experts:
I met with a cousin in New York last week concerning the
mystery of the arrival records of my great-grandfather
Aron TALALAY-TALALAI-TALALAJ, of Vorotinschtina (Zaverezhye),
an agricultural colony south-southwest of Mogilev, Belarus.
He was born there in 1876. According to family history, he spent
6 weeks in the UK before arriving in Canada sometime in late
summer 1905, spent about 6 weeks (over the Jewish holidays)
in Canada and then took the train to New York on 31 October,
arriving 1 November (info >from petition for US naturalization).
He was joined by his wife Riva BANK TALALAY and their two
small children Leib (2) and Chaya Feige (5 months) in December,
traveling direct >from Hamburg to New York.

Some 6 years ago I checked line by line of the St. Alban's
and Montreal manifests, finding no similar name that could
possibly be my GGF. Of course, a false name could have been given.

The family story is that he went to Canada to visit two
brothers there. I have never been able to find any information
on any similar name in Quebec or in Ontario.

My cousin related last week that he had spoken at length with my
great-grandmother Riva (Aaron's wife), who died in 1963, and
he reports that Riva indicated there were two brothers. Although
I have not followed this up recently, several years ago I did check
what online immigration records/indices. A cousin in Toronto
also attempted to check with no results.

It has occurred to me that if the brothers settled in Quebec
they may have adopted a more French-like spelling to the name.
In the US, TALALAY relatives have adopted TOLLIN, TALLIN,
TOLL, TAYLOR, TALL (as well as FEINSTEIN in Philadelphia!).
Others used TALABAJE (Leeds UK) or TALABAYE. The Toronto cousins
(Mogilev-Moscow-Berlin-London and then to Toronto) use TALALAY,
but arrived only after WWII, with no knowledge of this
other branch.

Is there perhaps something new on the scene for Quebec and
Ontario that might provide new insight into these possible brothers?
However, my conversation last week about Aaron's
"two brothers" are leading me to return to this possibility.
I remember vaguely that THALLALLE or similar shows up in
Quebec records (possibly census records?), but have no
idea if this could be TALALAY in a French form.

And as far as Riva's Canadian connection, we know that a
relative of Riva,perhaps with BANK surname (he was called Fetr
(Uncle) Beryl) but have no records that BANK was the surname
he used (supposedly he lived with a married daughter,
no names recorded). Uncle Beryl visited New York in 1923
to prepare a newly arrived cousin for his bar mitzvah and
then returned to Canada. Another cousin insists that their
mother (Riva's sister) visited Canada for the funeral of this
man who supposedly died in the 1950s well over the age of 100
(he was quite old in 1923, according to the bar mitzvah
boy whom I interviewed about 8 years ago).

I have tried in the past to see if records of people who
died at advanced ages are available in a special gerontological
category, had contacted the Jewish funeral homes to see if
any possibilities exist. There were a few BANK, some BANKS,
but none whose histories coincided with what I knew at the
time.

Any new insights into these two situations would be very welcome.

Best wishes,

Schelly Talalay Dardashti
Tel Aviv
schelly@...
schelly@...

A question for our Ontario and Quebec experts:
I met with a cousin in New York last week concerning the
mystery of the arrival records of my great-grandfather
Aron TALALAY-TALALAI-TALALAJ, of Vorotinschtina (Zaverezhye),
an agricultural colony south-southwest of Mogilev, Belarus.
He was born there in 1876. According to family history, he spent
6 weeks in the UK before arriving in Canada sometime in late
summer 1905, spent about 6 weeks (over the Jewish holidays)
in Canada and then took the train to New York on 31 October,
arriving 1 November (info >from petition for US naturalization).
He was joined by his wife Riva BANK TALALAY and their two
small children Leib (2) and Chaya Feige (5 months) in December,
traveling direct >from Hamburg to New York.

Some 6 years ago I checked line by line of the St. Alban's
and Montreal manifests, finding no similar name that could
possibly be my GGF. Of course, a false name could have been given.

The family story is that he went to Canada to visit two
brothers there. I have never been able to find any information
on any similar name in Quebec or in Ontario.

My cousin related last week that he had spoken at length with my
great-grandmother Riva (Aaron's wife), who died in 1963, and
he reports that Riva indicated there were two brothers. Although
I have not followed this up recently, several years ago I did check
what online immigration records/indices. A cousin in Toronto
also attempted to check with no results.

It has occurred to me that if the brothers settled in Quebec
they may have adopted a more French-like spelling to the name.
In the US, TALALAY relatives have adopted TOLLIN, TALLIN,
TOLL, TAYLOR, TALL (as well as FEINSTEIN in Philadelphia!).
Others used TALABAJE (Leeds UK) or TALABAYE. The Toronto cousins
(Mogilev-Moscow-Berlin-London and then to Toronto) use TALALAY,
but arrived only after WWII, with no knowledge of this
other branch.

Is there perhaps something new on the scene for Quebec and
Ontario that might provide new insight into these possible brothers?
However, my conversation last week about Aaron's
"two brothers" are leading me to return to this possibility.
I remember vaguely that THALLALLE or similar shows up in
Quebec records (possibly census records?), but have no
idea if this could be TALALAY in a French form.

And as far as Riva's Canadian connection, we know that a
relative of Riva,perhaps with BANK surname (he was called Fetr
(Uncle) Beryl) but have no records that BANK was the surname
he used (supposedly he lived with a married daughter,
no names recorded). Uncle Beryl visited New York in 1923
to prepare a newly arrived cousin for his bar mitzvah and
then returned to Canada. Another cousin insists that their
mother (Riva's sister) visited Canada for the funeral of this
man who supposedly died in the 1950s well over the age of 100
(he was quite old in 1923, according to the bar mitzvah
boy whom I interviewed about 8 years ago).

I have tried in the past to see if records of people who
died at advanced ages are available in a special gerontological
category, had contacted the Jewish funeral homes to see if
any possibilities exist. There were a few BANK, some BANKS,
but none whose histories coincided with what I knew at the
time.

Any new insights into these two situations would be very welcome.

Best wishes,

Schelly Talalay Dardashti
Tel Aviv
schelly@...
schelly@...

Dear Genners:

Has anyone ever come across the surname PELIARD, PELJARD
or PELJAT in any context? This family lived in the village
of Tluchowo in the Wloclawek/Lipno/Plock region of Poland.
This appears to be a very rare surname. It is not attested
to in Alexander Beider's books nor does it show up (except in a
French context as PELLIARD) in a web search, in the JGFF or
on Ellis Island.

It is known that Esther and Joseph PELIARD survived
the Holocaust, but their whereabouts thereafter are unknown.

Any leads would be appreciated.

Sincerely,

Yale J. Reisner
The Ronald S. Lauder Foundation
Warsaw, Poland
laudergen@...

Dear Genners:

Has anyone ever come across the surname PELIARD, PELJARD
or PELJAT in any context? This family lived in the village
of Tluchowo in the Wloclawek/Lipno/Plock region of Poland.
This appears to be a very rare surname. It is not attested
to in Alexander Beider's books nor does it show up (except in a
French context as PELLIARD) in a web search, in the JGFF or
on Ellis Island.

It is known that Esther and Joseph PELIARD survived
the Holocaust, but their whereabouts thereafter are unknown.

Any leads would be appreciated.

Sincerely,

Yale J. Reisner
The Ronald S. Lauder Foundation
Warsaw, Poland
laudergen@...

--- Beyesn@... wrote:

Does anyone know anything about Alien Registration Cards and how to
obtain
them? After a lot of research and failures trying to obtain my
great-
grandfather's naturalization papers, I am beginning to wonder if he
was
never naturalized. I thought maybe it was a law that you had to be
naturalized, but others have told me about ancestors who merely kept
filing these alien registration cards and stayed in the USA for 50,
60, 70 years.

I was once told that 25% of the people who immigrated to the US
never naturalized, but that was counting everyone. I suspect Jews
were more likely too, because they were more afraid of being deported.
Naturalization numbers when up during European wars, because people
were afraid that they would be deported, or their governments would
want them back to fight.

My great-grandfather immigrated >from Russia in the late 1880s, but
married
a woman who was a U.S. citizen - - would that provide him with legal
shelter?

No: his wife would have become a non-citizen. Seriously! In the
1800s a woman who was a US citizen lost their citizenship if they
married a man who was not. Up until 1922, if memory serves, or
maybe the cut off was 1906: I don't have the paper work right
in front of me.

If anyone know how to track down these old Alien Registration Cards,
let me know. Thanks!

NARA once sent me the federal paper work to get these. (I had
asked about someone who was an alien during WWII, and that is when
aliens had to register). Maybe WWI, too, but I'm pretty sure that
1942 was the magic year for alien registration.

If it matters, I can dig up the paperwork.

Joshua Levy

=====
Joshua Levy <joshualevy@...>
Note: I'm having spam problems at my joshualevy@...
address, so if that emailbox is full, try joshualevy2@....

--- Beyesn@... wrote:

Does anyone know anything about Alien Registration Cards and how to
obtain
them? After a lot of research and failures trying to obtain my
great-
grandfather's naturalization papers, I am beginning to wonder if he
was
never naturalized. I thought maybe it was a law that you had to be
naturalized, but others have told me about ancestors who merely kept
filing these alien registration cards and stayed in the USA for 50,
60, 70 years.

I was once told that 25% of the people who immigrated to the US
never naturalized, but that was counting everyone. I suspect Jews
were more likely too, because they were more afraid of being deported.
Naturalization numbers when up during European wars, because people
were afraid that they would be deported, or their governments would
want them back to fight.

My great-grandfather immigrated >from Russia in the late 1880s, but
married
a woman who was a U.S. citizen - - would that provide him with legal
shelter?

No: his wife would have become a non-citizen. Seriously! In the
1800s a woman who was a US citizen lost their citizenship if they
married a man who was not. Up until 1922, if memory serves, or
maybe the cut off was 1906: I don't have the paper work right
in front of me.

If anyone know how to track down these old Alien Registration Cards,
let me know. Thanks!

NARA once sent me the federal paper work to get these. (I had
asked about someone who was an alien during WWII, and that is when
aliens had to register). Maybe WWI, too, but I'm pretty sure that
1942 was the magic year for alien registration.

If it matters, I can dig up the paperwork.

Joshua Levy

=====
Joshua Levy <joshualevy@...>
Note: I'm having spam problems at my joshualevy@...
address, so if that emailbox is full, try joshualevy2@....

Looking for relations of Meyer Jacob Greenman (born abt 1858 in
Antopol, Belarus, died 1931 New York)
Brother: Chiam
Sister: Gold Riva (married Caplin)

Please respond privately.

Robert A. Dodell
RADodell@...

Looking for relations of Meyer Jacob Greenman (born abt 1858 in
Antopol, Belarus, died 1931 New York)
Brother: Chiam
Sister: Gold Riva (married Caplin)

Please respond privately.

Robert A. Dodell
RADodell@...

Looking for relations of Sara Sirota (born abt 1840) in Austro-Hungarian
Empire, probably near Belarus.

Please respond privately.

Robert A. Dodell
RADodell@...

MODERATOR NOTE: Don't forget to help yourself by registering your
research interests with the JewishGen Family Finder:
http://www2.jewishgen.org/jgff/

Looking for relations of Sara Sirota (born abt 1840) in Austro-Hungarian
Empire, probably near Belarus.

Please respond privately.

Robert A. Dodell
RADodell@...

MODERATOR NOTE: Don't forget to help yourself by registering your
research interests with the JewishGen Family Finder:
http://www2.jewishgen.org/jgff/

August 2004 was a banner month. We added four new books, seven new
entries, and 14 updates.

In addition, we are pleased that we were able to add Polish
translations to two yizkor books: Dembitz, Poland and Zgierz, Poland.
Please read the introductions to these Polish pages as well as the
Polish translations at
http://www2.jewishgen.org/Yizkor/debica/demp000.html and
http://www2.jewishgen.org/Yizkor/zgierz/zgip000.html . Bringing these
translations to JewishGen involved a high level of cooperation among
JewishGen, the project coordinators, and our Polish collaborators,
which we hope may lead to additional cooperative projects. And many
thanks to our html staff, who learned about htmling in Polish!

We also added another enhancement to our Romanian Pinkas HaKehillot
tables of content-- in this case a list of Hungarian place names in
Northern Translyvania, volume 2 of the Romanian Pinkasim,
http://www2.jewishgen.org/Yizkor/pinkas_romania/rom2_00001.html.

Remember that all translations can be accessed >from
http://www2.jewishgen.org/Yizkor/translations.html.

New books:

-Derechin, Belarus
-Holocaust in Belarus: Katastrofia Evreev v Belorusii 1941-1944
-Kletsk, Belarus
-The Jews in Crimea: name index

New entries:

-Bukowina: History of the Jews in Bukowina: Documents of the
Banishment of the Bukowinian Jews
-Pinkas HaKehillot:
-Konstantynow: Poland. v. 7
-Mordy, Poland: v. 7
-Negresti, Romania . v. 1
-Pungesti, Romania, v.1
-Vasliu, Romania, v.1
-Krekanana, Lithuania: Yahadut Lita

Updates:

-Bedzin, Poland
-Czyzew, Poland
-Dembitz, Poland
-Dolginovo, Belarus
-Krzywicze, Belarus
-Lita, Lithuania
-Minsk, Belarus
-Novogrudok, Belarus
-Podgaytsy, Ukraine
-Rejowiec, Poland
-Ropczyce, Poland
-Sosnowiec,, Belarus
-Turka, Ukraine
-Zgierz, Poland

Many thanks to all our contributors and our wonderful staff. Shana
Tova to all our friends, researchers, and volunteers.

Joyce Field
Yizkor Book Project Manager
jfield@...

August 2004 was a banner month. We added four new books, seven new
entries, and 14 updates.

In addition, we are pleased that we were able to add Polish
translations to two yizkor books: Dembitz, Poland and Zgierz, Poland.
Please read the introductions to these Polish pages as well as the
Polish translations at
http://www2.jewishgen.org/Yizkor/debica/demp000.html and
http://www2.jewishgen.org/Yizkor/zgierz/zgip000.html . Bringing these
translations to JewishGen involved a high level of cooperation among
JewishGen, the project coordinators, and our Polish collaborators,
which we hope may lead to additional cooperative projects. And many
thanks to our html staff, who learned about htmling in Polish!

We also added another enhancement to our Romanian Pinkas HaKehillot
tables of content-- in this case a list of Hungarian place names in
Northern Translyvania, volume 2 of the Romanian Pinkasim,
http://www2.jewishgen.org/Yizkor/pinkas_romania/rom2_00001.html.

Remember that all translations can be accessed >from
http://www2.jewishgen.org/Yizkor/translations.html.

New books:

-Derechin, Belarus
-Holocaust in Belarus: Katastrofia Evreev v Belorusii 1941-1944
-Kletsk, Belarus
-The Jews in Crimea: name index

New entries:

-Bukowina: History of the Jews in Bukowina: Documents of the
Banishment of the Bukowinian Jews
-Pinkas HaKehillot:
-Konstantynow: Poland. v. 7
-Mordy, Poland: v. 7
-Negresti, Romania . v. 1
-Pungesti, Romania, v.1
-Vasliu, Romania, v.1
-Krekanana, Lithuania: Yahadut Lita

Updates:

-Bedzin, Poland
-Czyzew, Poland
-Dembitz, Poland
-Dolginovo, Belarus
-Krzywicze, Belarus
-Lita, Lithuania
-Minsk, Belarus
-Novogrudok, Belarus
-Podgaytsy, Ukraine
-Rejowiec, Poland
-Ropczyce, Poland
-Sosnowiec,, Belarus
-Turka, Ukraine
-Zgierz, Poland

Many thanks to all our contributors and our wonderful staff. Shana
Tova to all our friends, researchers, and volunteers.

Joyce Field
Yizkor Book Project Manager
jfield@...

I am lucky enough to have found the Jewish Year Book for
South Africa for 1929! It's a truly fascinating & informative
volume of 394 pages.

Lots of photos, biographies, giving birthdates & places.
Look-ups are possible -Best-Miriam Margolyes

searching

AMIEL: SCNHAPPER: SYTNER, FRANKEL FRANKLIN
SANDEMAN

I am lucky enough to have found the Jewish Year Book for
South Africa for 1929! It's a truly fascinating & informative
volume of 394 pages.

Lots of photos, biographies, giving birthdates & places.
Look-ups are possible -Best-Miriam Margolyes

searching

AMIEL: SCNHAPPER: SYTNER, FRANKEL FRANKLIN
SANDEMAN

Is there anyone in the Detroit who could either photograph a
tombstone or at least copy the info off the stone for me?
This is the information:
Machpelah Cemetery, 21701 Woodward Ave, Ferndale
Samuel Menachem Fine Section 5, Lot 4,Grave 432B Died 11/2/1938
It would be greatly appreciated!

Mordechai Fine
Researching: FINE-Bialystok, FINE-Choroszcz,
SOLOWITZ-Volkavysk,HAMMER- Skala, Tarnopol, BERGMAN-Skala,
Tarnopol, METTER-Rostov,GULOWITZ-Rostov

MODERATOR NOTE: Please respond privately

Is there anyone in the Detroit who could either photograph a
tombstone or at least copy the info off the stone for me?
This is the information:
Machpelah Cemetery, 21701 Woodward Ave, Ferndale
Samuel Menachem Fine Section 5, Lot 4,Grave 432B Died 11/2/1938
It would be greatly appreciated!

Mordechai Fine
Researching: FINE-Bialystok, FINE-Choroszcz,
SOLOWITZ-Volkavysk,HAMMER- Skala, Tarnopol, BERGMAN-Skala,
Tarnopol, METTER-Rostov,GULOWITZ-Rostov

MODERATOR NOTE: Please respond privately

Is anyone associated with the Malcolm Stern book "First American
Jewish Families: 600 Genealogies, 1654-1988. (3rd Ed. 1991)?

Bernard Kouchel recently told us about on-line access to the
family data in this book available >from the American Jewish Archives
at http://www.americanjewisharchives.org/aja/FAJF/intro.html

I'd like to know if there is anyone to contact regarding corrections and
updates. My wife's family is listed in the book but there are both name
errors and omissions.

Is anyone collecting updates for these family trees?

Thanks,

Marty Meyers

Is anyone associated with the Malcolm Stern book "First American
Jewish Families: 600 Genealogies, 1654-1988. (3rd Ed. 1991)?

Bernard Kouchel recently told us about on-line access to the
family data in this book available >from the American Jewish Archives
at http://www.americanjewisharchives.org/aja/FAJF/intro.html

I'd like to know if there is anyone to contact regarding corrections and
updates. My wife's family is listed in the book but there are both name
errors and omissions.

Is anyone collecting updates for these family trees?

Thanks,

Marty Meyers

Dear all,

This question about people who emigrated >from what is know Latvia, as well
as other areas of the former Russian empire, and didn't receive a
citizenship in their new country might be unusual for descendants in USA,
but for people like me who are living in Scandinavia this is not at all
uncommon. Many of the Jewish immigrants who arrived in Scandinavia around
1900 (before the fall of the Russian empire) never became citizens in their
new country. I will examplify with my great grandfather, Samuel Katzeff, who
was born in 1875 in Pärnu (today in Estonia, back then in Livland
guberniya).

Samuel Katzeff came to Sweden in 1897. Here he stayed until 1913 without
applying for Swedish citizenship. >from 1913 he lived in Denmark and during
that period he applied for citizenship twice:

*In 1931 he sent away an application to the government in Estonia applying
for Estonian citizenship. He's said to have had a Russian citizenship that
was lost when the Russian empire fell into pieces after the Russian
revolution. If he had lived in Estonia when they got their freedom in 1918
he would automatically have become an Estonian citizen, but as he lived in
Denmark in 1918 he instead became stateless! Samuel's application in 1931
was rejected as he didn't live in Estonia.
*In 1941, one year after the Germans had occupied Denmark, he applied for
Danish citizenship. He's then referred to as being stateless and to prove
that shows the Estonian papers >from 1931. Samuel's application >from 1941 was
also rejected, so when he died in Copenhagen, Denmark i 1946 he was an alien
without any citizenship!

I'm sure many other Scandinavians with Eastern European roots can tell
similar stories about their ancestors. In Scandinavia, and certainly also in
other Western European countries, it wasn't that easy to become a citizen of
the new country as in the US!

Best regards,

Adam Katzeff,
Malmoe, Sweden

adam.katzeff@...

Researching:
GOLDBERG: Papile, Lithuania; Cesis, Latvia; Tallinn, Estonia; Glasgow,
Scotland; Sweden; Denmark; PA+WI, USA.
KATSEV/KATZEFF/KATZOFF/KACEV: Papile, Lithuania; Cesis+Riga, Latvia;
Pärnu+Tallinn, Estonia; Glasgow, Scotland; Sweden; Denmark; MA+GA+NY+CA,
USA.
NEMCHENOK/NEMCHENKO: Yanovichi+Surazh+Velizh+Vitebsk, Belarus; Paris,
France; Sweden; Denmark; NY, USA.

Dear all,

This question about people who emigrated >from what is know Latvia, as well
as other areas of the former Russian empire, and didn't receive a
citizenship in their new country might be unusual for descendants in USA,
but for people like me who are living in Scandinavia this is not at all
uncommon. Many of the Jewish immigrants who arrived in Scandinavia around
1900 (before the fall of the Russian empire) never became citizens in their
new country. I will examplify with my great grandfather, Samuel Katzeff, who
was born in 1875 in Pärnu (today in Estonia, back then in Livland
guberniya).

Samuel Katzeff came to Sweden in 1897. Here he stayed until 1913 without
applying for Swedish citizenship. >from 1913 he lived in Denmark and during
that period he applied for citizenship twice:

*In 1931 he sent away an application to the government in Estonia applying
for Estonian citizenship. He's said to have had a Russian citizenship that
was lost when the Russian empire fell into pieces after the Russian
revolution. If he had lived in Estonia when they got their freedom in 1918
he would automatically have become an Estonian citizen, but as he lived in
Denmark in 1918 he instead became stateless! Samuel's application in 1931
was rejected as he didn't live in Estonia.
*In 1941, one year after the Germans had occupied Denmark, he applied for
Danish citizenship. He's then referred to as being stateless and to prove
that shows the Estonian papers >from 1931. Samuel's application >from 1941 was
also rejected, so when he died in Copenhagen, Denmark i 1946 he was an alien
without any citizenship!

I'm sure many other Scandinavians with Eastern European roots can tell
similar stories about their ancestors. In Scandinavia, and certainly also in
other Western European countries, it wasn't that easy to become a citizen of
the new country as in the US!

Best regards,

Adam Katzeff,
Malmoe, Sweden

adam.katzeff@...

Researching:
GOLDBERG: Papile, Lithuania; Cesis, Latvia; Tallinn, Estonia; Glasgow,
Scotland; Sweden; Denmark; PA+WI, USA.
KATSEV/KATZEFF/KATZOFF/KACEV: Papile, Lithuania; Cesis+Riga, Latvia;
Pärnu+Tallinn, Estonia; Glasgow, Scotland; Sweden; Denmark; MA+GA+NY+CA,
USA.
NEMCHENOK/NEMCHENKO: Yanovichi+Surazh+Velizh+Vitebsk, Belarus; Paris,
France; Sweden; Denmark; NY, USA.