At 01:00 AM 9/9/2004 -0500, Henry Sinai of Israel wrote:

I am not surprised that Veit MAYER was called Shraga.

In my family, my GGF was called Veit or Feit in census records 1800's.
His name was written as FEISH (Yiddish) in Chevra Kadisha records.

Descecndants named after him were called Phillip/Fulop/Fillip or similar
depending on the country of birth (secular) and in Hebrew their name
was/is Shraga.

Three names that were sometimes confused with one another by Jews and

who recorded census and other records, were Veit (a German secular name),
Filip (another German secular name), and Fayvl (a Yiddish name with
numerous variants). This confusion appears also in the data found in
Henry's family.

Faysh was a Yiddish nickname for the Yiddish name Fayvl, and appeared
itself in many guises, in Yiddish, German (as above, Feish), and Hungarian
scripts. In the above family, the Yiddish name Faysh was apparently used
for an ancestor whose name was Veit in German. Either that, or the
ancestor also had the name Veit in addition to the Fayvl (>from which Faysh
descends). There are other possibilities as well.

The German secular names Filip/Philip were accepted secular kinuim for use
with various Hebrew names, one of which was Fayvl and its variants. So,
this could explain the subsequent use for descendants of Veit, of the
secular names Phillip (a German secular name), Fulop (a Hungarian secular
name which is the "equivalent" of the German name Phillip), and Filip
(another version of the German secular name Phillip).

And finally, how does the Hebrew name Shraga enter into this pantheon of
names? Well, it turns out that the Hebrew name Shraga has - you guessed
it! - a set of Yiddish kinuim which are Feyvesh, Feyvl, Fayvesh, and
Fayvl. Thus, a man with the Hebrew name Shraga and the Yiddish name Fayvl
would be called to the Tora in an aliya by the name Shraga Fayvl. So,

is the connection between Faysh/Fayvl and all of these other names.

Henry might bear all this in mind when he is searching archival documents
for ancestors.

Professor G. L. Esterson, Ra'anana, Israel

At 01:00 AM 9/9/2004 -0500, Henry Sinai of Israel wrote:

I am not surprised that Veit MAYER was called Shraga.

In my family, my GGF was called Veit or Feit in census records 1800's.
His name was written as FEISH (Yiddish) in Chevra Kadisha records.

Descecndants named after him were called Phillip/Fulop/Fillip or similar
depending on the country of birth (secular) and in Hebrew their name
was/is Shraga.

Three names that were sometimes confused with one another by Jews and

who recorded census and other records, were Veit (a German secular name),
Filip (another German secular name), and Fayvl (a Yiddish name with
numerous variants). This confusion appears also in the data found in
Henry's family.

Faysh was a Yiddish nickname for the Yiddish name Fayvl, and appeared
itself in many guises, in Yiddish, German (as above, Feish), and Hungarian
scripts. In the above family, the Yiddish name Faysh was apparently used
for an ancestor whose name was Veit in German. Either that, or the
ancestor also had the name Veit in addition to the Fayvl (>from which Faysh
descends). There are other possibilities as well.

The German secular names Filip/Philip were accepted secular kinuim for use
with various Hebrew names, one of which was Fayvl and its variants. So,
this could explain the subsequent use for descendants of Veit, of the
secular names Phillip (a German secular name), Fulop (a Hungarian secular
name which is the "equivalent" of the German name Phillip), and Filip
(another version of the German secular name Phillip).

And finally, how does the Hebrew name Shraga enter into this pantheon of
names? Well, it turns out that the Hebrew name Shraga has - you guessed
it! - a set of Yiddish kinuim which are Feyvesh, Feyvl, Fayvesh, and
Fayvl. Thus, a man with the Hebrew name Shraga and the Yiddish name Fayvl
would be called to the Tora in an aliya by the name Shraga Fayvl. So,

is the connection between Faysh/Fayvl and all of these other names.

Henry might bear all this in mind when he is searching archival documents
for ancestors.

Professor G. L. Esterson, Ra'anana, Israel

I've encountered a bit of a mystery in researching the town of Makhnovka,
which was near Berditchev. A number of people whose grandparents were from
this town reported that their grandparents thought of themselves as

and not Russian. Looking at the maps, it is clear that Makhnovka was
definitely in the Russian Empire, further east than Galicia's borders ever
went (that I know of).

I'm wondering is it possible that people in this western edge of Russian
Empire could have thought of themselves as Galician, even though not

the official borders, because of close ties between the various towns?

they have had a sense of themselves as the same "people"?

I have heard many people describe how even among Jews, there was a sense

different ethnic identities, and that there were differences in traditions
and practices between some of these groups. Galicianers would see

as distinct >from Litvaks, for example.

So, I'm wondering what sense of ethnic identity did the Jews of Podolia

Volhynia have? (I've certainly never heard anyone describe themselves as
Podolian or Volhynian - these were, I think, just arbitrary guberniyas

borders moved around.) Would they have thought of themselves as Russian?
Could they have thought of themselves as Galician? Was there any Ukrainian
identity? Where were the "ethnic" boundaries? (The official national
boundaries changed so much in that area, I can certainly imagine people

taking them as seriously as perceived ethnic boundaries.)

Any insights into this?

Tom Chatt
Los Angeles, CA

I've encountered a bit of a mystery in researching the town of Makhnovka,
which was near Berditchev. A number of people whose grandparents were from
this town reported that their grandparents thought of themselves as

and not Russian. Looking at the maps, it is clear that Makhnovka was
definitely in the Russian Empire, further east than Galicia's borders ever
went (that I know of).

I'm wondering is it possible that people in this western edge of Russian
Empire could have thought of themselves as Galician, even though not

the official borders, because of close ties between the various towns?

they have had a sense of themselves as the same "people"?

I have heard many people describe how even among Jews, there was a sense

different ethnic identities, and that there were differences in traditions
and practices between some of these groups. Galicianers would see

as distinct >from Litvaks, for example.

So, I'm wondering what sense of ethnic identity did the Jews of Podolia

Volhynia have? (I've certainly never heard anyone describe themselves as
Podolian or Volhynian - these were, I think, just arbitrary guberniyas

borders moved around.) Would they have thought of themselves as Russian?
Could they have thought of themselves as Galician? Was there any Ukrainian
identity? Where were the "ethnic" boundaries? (The official national
boundaries changed so much in that area, I can certainly imagine people

taking them as seriously as perceived ethnic boundaries.)

Any insights into this?

Tom Chatt
Los Angeles, CA