This is my first post to this group, so please forgive my naivete with
convention.

For many years, I have attempted to learn more about my great-grandparent's
migration >from Volhynia to Omaha in about 1885. My grandmother's father,
Samuel SIEVER, died in 1906 when my grandmother was only 3 years-old. My
grandmother said that she recalled some mention of the family coming from
Belarotky & Berdichet. A distant cousin remembers hearing stories of
life in Belarotka. I guessed that they were referring to Belagorodka.
I'm not sure if there are any ties to Berdichev. The 1900 Census (Omaha
Ward 3, ED 29, Page 4) lists Samuel as Samuel Seiver, married to Ella,
with their two eldest children. It indicates that Samuel migrated to the
U.S. in 1885 at the age of 10. His wife's correct Americanized name was
Nellie Steinberg. She, too, migrated to Omaha in 1885. She is not as big of
a mystery. Her parents were Monish STEINBERG and Gitel "Gusta" SILBERMAN.
I was able to obtain a 1906 copy of Monish's U.S. Passport >from the NARA.
It indicates his birthplace as Slavita, Russia. Slavita, now known as
Slavuta, is quite near to Belogorodka. Monish apparently divorced Gitel,
remarried & moved to Safed in Ottoman controlled Palestine (now Tzfat,
Israel). As for Samuel,he remained a complete mystery. However, the
Nebraska Historical Society was able to find Samuel & Nellie's 1895
marriage license. Samuel listed his father as Abraham Siever, and his mother
as Kraney SAX I'm guessing that a more accurate spelling of his mother's name
would be Krayne SAKS. Problem is that I can't find them in the U.S. Did
Samuel migrate, at age 10, with the Steinberg family? How did he get the
surname of SIEVER? In reviewing Alexander Beider's dictionary of Jewish
Surnames, I'm left wondering if the family name is Shefer. This spelling
was common in Izmail, which is again near Slavuta & Belagorodka. During
1901, Samuel & Nellie lived in St. Louis, MO. Were there Sievers in St.
Louis? Does anyone know of these family names in Omaha >from 1885 to 1910?

Thank you,
Steven R. Colson
Oakley, California

Searching SIEVER, STEINBERG, SAKS, SILBERMAN: Volhynia to Omaha, Nebraska

This is my first post to this group, so please forgive my naivete with
convention.

For many years, I have attempted to learn more about my great-grandparent's
migration >from Volhynia to Omaha in about 1885. My grandmother's father,
Samuel SIEVER, died in 1906 when my grandmother was only 3 years-old. My
grandmother said that she recalled some mention of the family coming from
Belarotky & Berdichet. A distant cousin remembers hearing stories of
life in Belarotka. I guessed that they were referring to Belagorodka.
I'm not sure if there are any ties to Berdichev. The 1900 Census (Omaha
Ward 3, ED 29, Page 4) lists Samuel as Samuel Seiver, married to Ella,
with their two eldest children. It indicates that Samuel migrated to the
U.S. in 1885 at the age of 10. His wife's correct Americanized name was
Nellie Steinberg. She, too, migrated to Omaha in 1885. She is not as big of
a mystery. Her parents were Monish STEINBERG and Gitel "Gusta" SILBERMAN.
I was able to obtain a 1906 copy of Monish's U.S. Passport >from the NARA.
It indicates his birthplace as Slavita, Russia. Slavita, now known as
Slavuta, is quite near to Belogorodka. Monish apparently divorced Gitel,
remarried & moved to Safed in Ottoman controlled Palestine (now Tzfat,
Israel). As for Samuel,he remained a complete mystery. However, the
Nebraska Historical Society was able to find Samuel & Nellie's 1895
marriage license. Samuel listed his father as Abraham Siever, and his mother
as Kraney SAX I'm guessing that a more accurate spelling of his mother's name
would be Krayne SAKS. Problem is that I can't find them in the U.S. Did
Samuel migrate, at age 10, with the Steinberg family? How did he get the
surname of SIEVER? In reviewing Alexander Beider's dictionary of Jewish
Surnames, I'm left wondering if the family name is Shefer. This spelling
was common in Izmail, which is again near Slavuta & Belagorodka. During
1901, Samuel & Nellie lived in St. Louis, MO. Were there Sievers in St.
Louis? Does anyone know of these family names in Omaha >from 1885 to 1910?

Thank you,
Steven R. Colson
Oakley, California

Searching SIEVER, STEINBERG, SAKS, SILBERMAN: Volhynia to Omaha, Nebraska

I've encountered a bit of a mystery in researching the town of Makhnovka,
which was near Berditchev. A number of people whose grandparents were from
this town reported that their grandparents thought of themselves as Galician
and not Russian. Looking at the maps, it is clear that Makhnovka was
definitely in the Russian Empire, further east than Galicia's borders ever
went (that I know of).

I'm wondering is it possible that people in this western edge of Russian
Empire could have thought of themselves as Galician, even though not within
the official borders, because of close ties between the various towns? Would
they have had a sense of themselves as the same "people"?

I have heard many people describe how even among Jews, there was a sense of
different ethnic identities, and that there were differences in traditions
and practices between some of these groups. Galicianers would see themselves
as distinct >from Litvaks, for example.

So, I'm wondering what sense of ethnic identity did the Jews of Podolia and
Volhynia have? (I've certainly never heard anyone describe themselves as
Podolian or Volhynian - these were, I think, just arbitrary guberniyas whose
borders moved around.) Would they have thought of themselves as Russian?
Could they have thought of themselves as Galician? Was there any Ukrainian
identity? Where were the "ethnic" boundaries? (The official national
boundaries changed so much in that area, I can certainly imagine people not
taking them as seriously as perceived ethnic boundaries.)

Any insights into this?

Tom Chatt
Los Angeles, CA

I've encountered a bit of a mystery in researching the town of Makhnovka,
which was near Berditchev. A number of people whose grandparents were from
this town reported that their grandparents thought of themselves as Galician
and not Russian. Looking at the maps, it is clear that Makhnovka was
definitely in the Russian Empire, further east than Galicia's borders ever
went (that I know of).

I'm wondering is it possible that people in this western edge of Russian
Empire could have thought of themselves as Galician, even though not within
the official borders, because of close ties between the various towns? Would
they have had a sense of themselves as the same "people"?

I have heard many people describe how even among Jews, there was a sense of
different ethnic identities, and that there were differences in traditions
and practices between some of these groups. Galicianers would see themselves
as distinct >from Litvaks, for example.

So, I'm wondering what sense of ethnic identity did the Jews of Podolia and
Volhynia have? (I've certainly never heard anyone describe themselves as
Podolian or Volhynian - these were, I think, just arbitrary guberniyas whose
borders moved around.) Would they have thought of themselves as Russian?
Could they have thought of themselves as Galician? Was there any Ukrainian
identity? Where were the "ethnic" boundaries? (The official national
boundaries changed so much in that area, I can certainly imagine people not
taking them as seriously as perceived ethnic boundaries.)

Any insights into this?

Tom Chatt
Los Angeles, CA

Tom,

My grandmother was >from Kolki in Volhynia. She came to the US in 1920. As
you mention the area changed hands frequently. She used to call it "Polisha
Russia", told stories about various armies moving through the town and she
witnessed hangings of Jews in the center of town. I don't believe that she
identified as Galician, Ukrainian or anything other than Jewish.

Regards,

Andrew Blumberg

Researching: HIMELFARB or GIMELFARB - Kovel, Ukraine; KIPPELMAN, KIPILMAN or
KIPELMAN - Kolki, Ukraine

There are/were linguistic boundaries of the Yiddish language which were not
always congruent with national boundaries. There is a major work on this (I
forget the title just now) by Marvin Herzog which you can get in any large
research library. Thus, the Yiddish spoken by my parents, >from Ukraine, was
the same as the Yiddish spoken in Romania. Many Jews in Belarus considered
themselves Litvaks and spoke Yiddish with the Litvak accent and grammar.
Galitzianer Yiddish could be compared to the Yiddish spoken in Poland and
Hungary.
Sincerely,
Ida Selavan SchwarczArad, Israel


Dr. Joseph M. Schwarcz
Dr. Ida Selavan Schwarcz
Tappuah 7/3, Arad
IL-89053, Israel

There are/were linguistic boundaries of the Yiddish language which were not
always congruent with national boundaries. There is a major work on this (I
forget the title just now) by Marvin Herzog which you can get in any large
research library. Thus, the Yiddish spoken by my parents, >from Ukraine, was
the same as the Yiddish spoken in Romania. Many Jews in Belarus considered
themselves Litvaks and spoke Yiddish with the Litvak accent and grammar.
Galitzianer Yiddish could be compared to the Yiddish spoken in Poland and
Hungary.
Sincerely,
Ida Selavan SchwarczArad, Israel


Dr. Joseph M. Schwarcz
Dr. Ida Selavan Schwarcz
Tappuah 7/3, Arad
IL-89053, Israel

Tom,

My grandmother was >from Kolki in Volhynia. She came to the US in 1920. As
you mention the area changed hands frequently. She used to call it "Polisha
Russia", told stories about various armies moving through the town and she
witnessed hangings of Jews in the center of town. I don't believe that she
identified as Galician, Ukrainian or anything other than Jewish.

Regards,

Andrew Blumberg

Researching: HIMELFARB or GIMELFARB - Kovel, Ukraine; KIPPELMAN, KIPILMAN or
KIPELMAN - Kolki, Ukraine

Dear Steve,

We have communicated before and I saw your posting below and thought
I would have a look at the Ancestry database. I know you have
previously mentioned Annie. I don't know whether I am adding or
subtracting to your workload!

The GRO Index reports the following:

Annie PICKHOLZ - Death entry
Bethnal Green, 1900 June quarter, 1c 320, age 32
I presume this was the widow you reported on in April, when asking about Mary.

She "may" also be the mother of one or both of the two boys you are
asking about. (Incidentally, have you checked for the 13 year old if
he was in the 1891 census? If not, it might narrow down when he came
to the UK.)

Secondly;
Margit PICKHOLZ - Death entry
Brent, Greater London, April 2000, Registry # C32A, Entry # 220
born: 2 Aug 1906

Ancestry.com appears to have "private" access to more GRO indexe
information than FreeBMD publicly lists (up to 1983) plus also
entries up to 2002 >from another source,
though their source information seems to suggest the GRO.

All I can further suggest, as you live in NJ and perhaps have access
to a local Mormon library is to order, say random years (every
decade?) of the London street directories though these are nothing
like as complete as the NYC directories.

Best wishes,

Jeremy G Frankel
ex-London, England
Berkeley, CA

President
San Francisco Bay Area
Jewish Genealogical Society

In my post to the forum concerning the grave of ISSAC/HARRY KOLSKY I
accidentaly deleted
the burial being in the Edmonton cemetry in London

HARRY / ISSAC KOLKSKY

I am interested to find his burial plot and exact date of death (sometime
in 1945) also for saying Kaddish but have no further information.
If someone can provide me with the telephone no of the burial society or if
someone is going to the grounds and can locate and possibly photograph the
stone I would be extremely gratefull.
His wife was HELEN nee GOLDBERG and son BARRY (both living in Israel)
Also if anyone knows of any possible relatives to him Brothers/Sisters/
nephiews etc I would be very gratefull.

Please reply privately to me
Michael Lixenberg

In my post to the forum concerning the grave of ISSAC/HARRY KOLSKY I
accidentaly deleted
the burial being in the Edmonton cemetry in London

HARRY / ISSAC KOLKSKY

I am interested to find his burial plot and exact date of death (sometime
in 1945) also for saying Kaddish but have no further information.
If someone can provide me with the telephone no of the burial society or if
someone is going to the grounds and can locate and possibly photograph the
stone I would be extremely gratefull.
His wife was HELEN nee GOLDBERG and son BARRY (both living in Israel)
Also if anyone knows of any possible relatives to him Brothers/Sisters/
nephiews etc I would be very gratefull.

Please reply privately to me
Michael Lixenberg

Dear Steve,

We have communicated before and I saw your posting below and thought
I would have a look at the Ancestry database. I know you have
previously mentioned Annie. I don't know whether I am adding or
subtracting to your workload!

The GRO Index reports the following:

Annie PICKHOLZ - Death entry
Bethnal Green, 1900 June quarter, 1c 320, age 32
I presume this was the widow you reported on in April, when asking about Mary.

She "may" also be the mother of one or both of the two boys you are
asking about. (Incidentally, have you checked for the 13 year old if
he was in the 1891 census? If not, it might narrow down when he came
to the UK.)

Secondly;
Margit PICKHOLZ - Death entry
Brent, Greater London, April 2000, Registry # C32A, Entry # 220
born: 2 Aug 1906

Ancestry.com appears to have "private" access to more GRO indexe
information than FreeBMD publicly lists (up to 1983) plus also
entries up to 2002 >from another source,
though their source information seems to suggest the GRO.

All I can further suggest, as you live in NJ and perhaps have access
to a local Mormon library is to order, say random years (every
decade?) of the London street directories though these are nothing
like as complete as the NYC directories.

Best wishes,

Jeremy G Frankel
ex-London, England
Berkeley, CA

President
San Francisco Bay Area
Jewish Genealogical Society

Alex Sharon writes:

Musha, read as: [Moo syah], Dusha, Nusha, Anusha and a few similar
othersfeminine diminutive and affectionate (pet) names have been
commonly used by the "Russian" Jewish families.

And it appears that your gmother name Masha, has also Russian background -
it is common diminutive form of Miriam (Maria), similar to Sasha, Natasha,
and so on.

So what it boils down to is this: there are two different names,
both being of Russian origin:

(1) Moussia or Musha (with its diminutive form Moushka or Mushka); and

(2) Masha (which probably accounts for the common Jewish female name
Marsha -- a spelling often displaced by the classical (and classier?)
name Marcia).

If so, it is a shame that so many Mushas and Mushkas who actually
inherited name #1 ended up pronounced like Masha instead! It
also means that those of us having an ancestor with either of those
names should bear in mind the possibility that the "other" spelling
may appear on some documents.

Judith Romney Wegner

Alex Sharon writes:

Musha, read as: [Moo syah], Dusha, Nusha, Anusha and a few similar
othersfeminine diminutive and affectionate (pet) names have been
commonly used by the "Russian" Jewish families.

And it appears that your gmother name Masha, has also Russian background -
it is common diminutive form of Miriam (Maria), similar to Sasha, Natasha,
and so on.

So what it boils down to is this: there are two different names,
both being of Russian origin:

(1) Moussia or Musha (with its diminutive form Moushka or Mushka); and

(2) Masha (which probably accounts for the common Jewish female name
Marsha -- a spelling often displaced by the classical (and classier?)
name Marcia).

If so, it is a shame that so many Mushas and Mushkas who actually
inherited name #1 ended up pronounced like Masha instead! It
also means that those of us having an ancestor with either of those
names should bear in mind the possibility that the "other" spelling
may appear on some documents.

Judith Romney Wegner

Masha was a common Yiddish name in Russia. Perhaps
it was derived >from a Russian nickname for a more formal name?
Musa was also a common Yiddish name in Russia.
It sounds like your spelling is a hybrid of the two names.
Bert
Herbert Lazerow
lazer@...

Masha was a common Yiddish name in Russia. Perhaps
it was derived >from a Russian nickname for a more formal name?
Musa was also a common Yiddish name in Russia.
It sounds like your spelling is a hybrid of the two names.
Bert
Herbert Lazerow
lazer@...

Ida Selavan Schwartz writes:

Chaya Mushka was the name of the wife of the third Rebbe, the Tsemah
Tsedek. Mushka seems to be a
diminutive of Moussia, which is a Russian name. Many of the
rebbetsins had Russian names used also in Yiddish

Dear Ida,

That is interesting. It suggests that we are dealing with two
different names here -- Moussia being a Russian name and Masha a
Polish name.

So now we have:

(1) the transliteration Musha (and its diminutive Mushka) --
representing the pronunciations Moosha and Mooshka)

and

(2) the transliteration Masha -- representing a different name
(often rendered in English as Marsha or Marcia).

Judith

Ida Selavan Schwartz writes:

Chaya Mushka was the name of the wife of the third Rebbe, the Tsemah
Tsedek. Mushka seems to be a
diminutive of Moussia, which is a Russian name. Many of the
rebbetsins had Russian names used also in Yiddish

Dear Ida,

That is interesting. It suggests that we are dealing with two
different names here -- Moussia being a Russian name and Masha a
Polish name.

So now we have:

(1) the transliteration Musha (and its diminutive Mushka) --
representing the pronunciations Moosha and Mooshka)

and

(2) the transliteration Masha -- representing a different name
(often rendered in English as Marsha or Marcia).

Judith

Re: Jewish Genealogical Society of Tampa Bay Meeting, Sunday, September 12,
2004 "Preservation of Documents, Photos and Films"


Because of the approaching storm and the needs of our members to protect our
families and property, and the high possibility of the unavailability of our
speaker (he is an emergency responder supporting Progress Energy), and the
lack of power at our meeting location for the last week, I am postponing
our meeting this Sunday. It will be postponed to Sunday, October 17, 2004
(the third Sunday, not our usual 2nd Sunday).

Be safe and have a happy New Year

Mark Baron
President
JGSTampaBay@...

Re: Jewish Genealogical Society of Tampa Bay Meeting, Sunday, September 12,
2004 "Preservation of Documents, Photos and Films"


Because of the approaching storm and the needs of our members to protect our
families and property, and the high possibility of the unavailability of our
speaker (he is an emergency responder supporting Progress Energy), and the
lack of power at our meeting location for the last week, I am postponing
our meeting this Sunday. It will be postponed to Sunday, October 17, 2004
(the third Sunday, not our usual 2nd Sunday).

Be safe and have a happy New Year

Mark Baron
President
JGSTampaBay@...