And what is also important: town names changed quite often and people used
several versions (and spellings) of the names.

When you search JewishGen database for Katz+Luger, what come up are three
births >from the Tiszakaracsonyfalva (KAracsonfalva) area where the parents
are Luger and Katz (not the ones you mentioned but it is probable they are
related and brothers married sisters as happened in many places).

And you probably saw the indexed marriage record (Subcarpathia Jewish
records) >from 1897 where they married in Taraczkoz, Teresva district. In
that marriage record Benczi Fogel is said to be born in KAracsonyfalu,
living in Huszt, the bride born in Hosszumezo, living in Taraczkoz. The
father of the bride was a schohet.

Regards,

Karesz Vandor
genealogist/historian/private tour guide

Hungarian Roots
web: www.hungarianroots.com
e-mail: info@...
cell: +36-30-546-6950

And what is also important: town names changed quite often and people used
several versions (and spellings) of the names.

When you search JewishGen database for Katz+Luger, what come up are three
births >from the Tiszakaracsonyfalva (KAracsonfalva) area where the parents
are Luger and Katz (not the ones you mentioned but it is probable they are
related and brothers married sisters as happened in many places).

And you probably saw the indexed marriage record (Subcarpathia Jewish
records) >from 1897 where they married in Taraczkoz, Teresva district. In
that marriage record Benczi Fogel is said to be born in KAracsonyfalu,
living in Huszt, the bride born in Hosszumezo, living in Taraczkoz. The
father of the bride was a schohet.

Regards,

Karesz Vandor
genealogist/historian/private tour guide

Hungarian Roots
web: www.hungarianroots.com
e-mail: info@...
cell: +36-30-546-6950

To add some more details based on my experiences working with the
probate files.

Yes each borough is somewhat different in the resources and what is
available online and how you go about the research. Probate (if one
exists) in the borough where the person had their legal residence ...
not necessarily where they died. They could have gone to a hospital
and died in Manhattan but lived in the Bronx for example and the
probate if one was done would be in the Bronx. So if you can find it,
it helps to first get the death certificate or at least locate the
person in the death index or find a paid obit >from the newspaper.
Dates help because the indexes are very general and in many cases are
nothing more than a name, a date and the file number. A lot of them
do not have addresses so if you are searching a common name you could
have a real challenge if you do not know a date. It is also important
to understand that not everyone had a probate and even if they had
assets to prompt a filing they might not have had a will. This is
important because the courts keep separate files and indexes for a
probate with a will versus what is called an administration when
there is no will. However, the information is about the same in the
files but you have to know to check both (separate) indexes in some
cases. Ancestry has the early wills for the Bronx (up to the 1920s if
I recall correctly) and Family Search has Manhattan to around the turn
of the century. The Brooklyn files are also on Family Search (the
early ones) and the Brooklyn index is on Family Search for both wills
and administrations in theory to 1972 but I have found some gaps or
missing index cards in their file. Problem also is that Family Search
never made it searchable so you have to browse the index card which
requires some experience working with their files. Family Search also
has images of the Manhattan indexes but again it is not searchable so
you have to browse it. They have been adding to their Queens County
file to bring that index online. Some of the courts will work with you
remotely but sometimes the search fees are pretty high. As Phyllis
pointed out it can be easier to go there in person or hire someone to
go there for you. (I do retrievals for people.) Each court is
different. Brooklyn they are all on site in the basement and most
days they will pull the file while you wait unless they are short
staffed. Manhattan i working to scan files to their computers on site
but the old one are stored off site. You have to place an order to get
the file and they retrieve it in a few weeks. Good news if the file is
small they scan it and email it to you free of charge but if it is a
big file they call you to come back. The Bronx the newer files are
available while the older ones are stored and they only pull >from
storage once a week meaning it requires two trips to the Bronx. Queens
the file are on site either in paper or microfiche depending on the age.
Each court is a little different on it rules about copies. Brooklyn
encourages you to take photos on your phone if you have a smartphone
and Manhattan permits it if you ask. The Bronx generally says no to
pictures on your phone (Queens I do not remember since I have done less
work there). Do not take a camera though as the court houses do not
permit even a pocket camera. I know that sounds odd but that is how it
works ... the smart phone with a camera is not a problem but an
independent camera they will make you check at the door.
The good news is the files can be a treasure of information. You should
find next of kin, possibly just close or sometimes extended family
members, addresses where the person lived, their age, marital status and
some explanation of what they owned and its distribution. It could be
more involved depending on the size and complexity of the estate. There
could be a detailed listing of assets, tax papers, the details on what
they did to locate family members, and more. If the will or estate was
contested there can be hundreds of pages in the process with testimony,
etc. Note, in theory, death certificates are being removed >from the
file if they were there. Manhattan is definitely locking them if they
can the file. However if you are working with a paper file you might
till find the death certificate if it was there and no one stands over
you approving which pages you copy or photograph. The copy machine
generally are 25 cent a page so bring lots of change if you plan to make
copies. I am not going to go into the specific steps because they are
very entailed on Family Search other than to say go to search all files
and then you can limit it to USA, New York, and probate. The
explanation for browsing is cumbersome to put it all in this response.

Also note that while my response is specific to New York City since that
is what the original question was about and Phyllis' response a lot of
what I am saying works every where in the USA. If you are looking for
any USA probate start on FamilySearch and Ancestry and then search the
Internet for the probate court or records for the jurisdiction you need.
The court will have a page and generally explains the steps for
retrieving documents. I have done a lot of remote work all around the
USA. Smaller towns you can call the clerk and they work with you on the
phone sometimes. Sometime they send you what is called a docket which
lists the contents of the file and you pick and chose. Some courts for
example I have done Washington State it is all online and you chose
documents or say whole file and then they send you the price and you
pay online and the documents arrive in the mail in a few days. Most of
the courts you can talk to on the phone and explain you are looking for
details on heirs and family and they will work with you to help chose
the right documents.
Questions feel free to contact me. I have presented on probate at both
the International conference as well as some of the regional societies.
Allan Jordan

To add some more details based on my experiences working with the
probate files.

Yes each borough is somewhat different in the resources and what is
available online and how you go about the research. Probate (if one
exists) in the borough where the person had their legal residence ...
not necessarily where they died. They could have gone to a hospital
and died in Manhattan but lived in the Bronx for example and the
probate if one was done would be in the Bronx. So if you can find it,
it helps to first get the death certificate or at least locate the
person in the death index or find a paid obit >from the newspaper.
Dates help because the indexes are very general and in many cases are
nothing more than a name, a date and the file number. A lot of them
do not have addresses so if you are searching a common name you could
have a real challenge if you do not know a date. It is also important
to understand that not everyone had a probate and even if they had
assets to prompt a filing they might not have had a will. This is
important because the courts keep separate files and indexes for a
probate with a will versus what is called an administration when
there is no will. However, the information is about the same in the
files but you have to know to check both (separate) indexes in some
cases. Ancestry has the early wills for the Bronx (up to the 1920s if
I recall correctly) and Family Search has Manhattan to around the turn
of the century. The Brooklyn files are also on Family Search (the
early ones) and the Brooklyn index is on Family Search for both wills
and administrations in theory to 1972 but I have found some gaps or
missing index cards in their file. Problem also is that Family Search
never made it searchable so you have to browse the index card which
requires some experience working with their files. Family Search also
has images of the Manhattan indexes but again it is not searchable so
you have to browse it. They have been adding to their Queens County
file to bring that index online. Some of the courts will work with you
remotely but sometimes the search fees are pretty high. As Phyllis
pointed out it can be easier to go there in person or hire someone to
go there for you. (I do retrievals for people.) Each court is
different. Brooklyn they are all on site in the basement and most
days they will pull the file while you wait unless they are short
staffed. Manhattan i working to scan files to their computers on site
but the old one are stored off site. You have to place an order to get
the file and they retrieve it in a few weeks. Good news if the file is
small they scan it and email it to you free of charge but if it is a
big file they call you to come back. The Bronx the newer files are
available while the older ones are stored and they only pull >from
storage once a week meaning it requires two trips to the Bronx. Queens
the file are on site either in paper or microfiche depending on the age.
Each court is a little different on it rules about copies. Brooklyn
encourages you to take photos on your phone if you have a smartphone
and Manhattan permits it if you ask. The Bronx generally says no to
pictures on your phone (Queens I do not remember since I have done less
work there). Do not take a camera though as the court houses do not
permit even a pocket camera. I know that sounds odd but that is how it
works ... the smart phone with a camera is not a problem but an
independent camera they will make you check at the door.
The good news is the files can be a treasure of information. You should
find next of kin, possibly just close or sometimes extended family
members, addresses where the person lived, their age, marital status and
some explanation of what they owned and its distribution. It could be
more involved depending on the size and complexity of the estate. There
could be a detailed listing of assets, tax papers, the details on what
they did to locate family members, and more. If the will or estate was
contested there can be hundreds of pages in the process with testimony,
etc. Note, in theory, death certificates are being removed >from the
file if they were there. Manhattan is definitely locking them if they
can the file. However if you are working with a paper file you might
till find the death certificate if it was there and no one stands over
you approving which pages you copy or photograph. The copy machine
generally are 25 cent a page so bring lots of change if you plan to make
copies. I am not going to go into the specific steps because they are
very entailed on Family Search other than to say go to search all files
and then you can limit it to USA, New York, and probate. The
explanation for browsing is cumbersome to put it all in this response.

Also note that while my response is specific to New York City since that
is what the original question was about and Phyllis' response a lot of
what I am saying works every where in the USA. If you are looking for
any USA probate start on FamilySearch and Ancestry and then search the
Internet for the probate court or records for the jurisdiction you need.
The court will have a page and generally explains the steps for
retrieving documents. I have done a lot of remote work all around the
USA. Smaller towns you can call the clerk and they work with you on the
phone sometimes. Sometime they send you what is called a docket which
lists the contents of the file and you pick and chose. Some courts for
example I have done Washington State it is all online and you chose
documents or say whole file and then they send you the price and you
pay online and the documents arrive in the mail in a few days. Most of
the courts you can talk to on the phone and explain you are looking for
details on heirs and family and they will work with you to help chose
the right documents.
Questions feel free to contact me. I have presented on probate at both
the International conference as well as some of the regional societies.
Allan Jordan

Today, the JewishGen Future Scholar Fellows spent their third and
final day cleaning up the Krzepice, Poland Jewish Cemetery. They again
arrived early at the cemetery, where they were joined by a group of
special needs adults who came to assist in the clean-up process.

The day began with an emotional and impassioned speech >from Steven D.
Reece about the importance of our work. During the day, as the final
trees were chopped, and various branches and weeds were carried away,
JewishGen Fellows also spent time scraping moss and dirt off of
tombstones, in an effort to read their transcriptions. While this
could take time (some stones could take approximately an hour to
clean), the JewishGen Fellows reported that it was very rewarding to
be able to read about the people buried in this cemetery, and how if
not for JewishGen.org and The Matzevah Foundation, Inc., then these
people would not have been remembered in this way.

In the early afternoon, the JewishGen Fellows took a short lunch and
then visited the ruins of a local synagogue, which had been destroyed
by fire prior to the Shoah (the town's other Synagogue was destroyed
by the Nazis).

Before leaving, the JewishGen Fellows were given a presentation by
Aleksander Schwarz >from the Rabbinical Commission on Cemeteries in
Poland. He delivered an overview of the Halachik requirements for
preserving and restoring cemeteries. He then led the Fellows on a
walk-through of the cemetery to the sites that were potentially those
of mass graves. Alek explained the process he would undertake to
determine if this was the case, and some of the tools that are
rabbinically approved, and under what circumstances he could use them.

Following a really fun dinner, the JewishGen Fellows and Dan Oren,
Avraham Groll, and Steven D. Reece held a final reflection exercise,
and also discussed potential improvements to future programs.

Tomorrow, the Fellows will be visiting Lodz, where they will have
lunch with Maria Synger, a Lodz Jewish community educator. >from there
they will travel to Warsaw's airport for flights home.

To see the photos associated with this post, and other updates and
live videos, please go to and "Like" the JewishGen Facebook posts:
https://www.facebook.com/JewishGen.org/

Nancy Siegel
Communications Coordinator
JewishGen.org

Today, the JewishGen Future Scholar Fellows spent their third and
final day cleaning up the Krzepice, Poland Jewish Cemetery. They again
arrived early at the cemetery, where they were joined by a group of
special needs adults who came to assist in the clean-up process.

The day began with an emotional and impassioned speech >from Steven D.
Reece about the importance of our work. During the day, as the final
trees were chopped, and various branches and weeds were carried away,
JewishGen Fellows also spent time scraping moss and dirt off of
tombstones, in an effort to read their transcriptions. While this
could take time (some stones could take approximately an hour to
clean), the JewishGen Fellows reported that it was very rewarding to
be able to read about the people buried in this cemetery, and how if
not for JewishGen.org and The Matzevah Foundation, Inc., then these
people would not have been remembered in this way.

In the early afternoon, the JewishGen Fellows took a short lunch and
then visited the ruins of a local synagogue, which had been destroyed
by fire prior to the Shoah (the town's other Synagogue was destroyed
by the Nazis).

Before leaving, the JewishGen Fellows were given a presentation by
Aleksander Schwarz >from the Rabbinical Commission on Cemeteries in
Poland. He delivered an overview of the Halachik requirements for
preserving and restoring cemeteries. He then led the Fellows on a
walk-through of the cemetery to the sites that were potentially those
of mass graves. Alek explained the process he would undertake to
determine if this was the case, and some of the tools that are
rabbinically approved, and under what circumstances he could use them.

Following a really fun dinner, the JewishGen Fellows and Dan Oren,
Avraham Groll, and Steven D. Reece held a final reflection exercise,
and also discussed potential improvements to future programs.

Tomorrow, the Fellows will be visiting Lodz, where they will have
lunch with Maria Synger, a Lodz Jewish community educator. >from there
they will travel to Warsaw's airport for flights home.

To see the photos associated with this post, and other updates and
live videos, please go to and "Like" the JewishGen Facebook posts:
https://www.facebook.com/JewishGen.org/

Nancy Siegel
Communications Coordinator
JewishGen.org

There are a number of records of the YUDIN/JUDIN family on
geni.com both in Hebrew and Latin scripts

David Lewin
London

There are a number of records of the YUDIN/JUDIN family on
geni.com both in Hebrew and Latin scripts

David Lewin
London

Hi there friends
I am visiting Minsk in September and wish to go to Maly Trostinec
where my grandfather was shot in 1942. Can you help me with
information about how to get there and whether I will need a guide
please? I speak only English.

Thank you

Lysette Riley
Dunedin New Zealand

MODERATOR NOTE: Please reply privately.

Hi there friends
I am visiting Minsk in September and wish to go to Maly Trostinec
where my grandfather was shot in 1942. Can you help me with
information about how to get there and whether I will need a guide
please? I speak only English.

Thank you

Lysette Riley
Dunedin New Zealand

MODERATOR NOTE: Please reply privately.

Hello, everybody. Regarding the common occurrence of DNA matches on websites
such as Geni ("You've got matches!"), I have personally given up on trying
to identify these so-called matches that are usually called third or fourth
cousins. However, since many of them have trees, I have noticed a pattern in
those matches - whereby regions are consistently identified, which gives me
some idea of where my families must have migrated >from before their last
place of residence in Ukraine or Belarus. These are usually areas of Poland
and Lithuania. Therefore, I can assume that long ago, in the 18th century or
earlier my ancestors had lived in those areas.
A second issue is that shared matches frequently bring up the very same
people as a third match to the newly discovered match. This tells me that
the third individual whose name appears often is more definitely a relative
whose ancestry and my own are shared probably not that far back, i.e. early
in the 19th century or in the 18th century by virtue of a marriage of some
sister of an ancestor to me or vice versa.
Just my two cents.
David Goldman
NYC

Hello, everybody. Regarding the common occurrence of DNA matches on websites
such as Geni ("You've got matches!"), I have personally given up on trying
to identify these so-called matches that are usually called third or fourth
cousins. However, since many of them have trees, I have noticed a pattern in
those matches - whereby regions are consistently identified, which gives me
some idea of where my families must have migrated >from before their last
place of residence in Ukraine or Belarus. These are usually areas of Poland
and Lithuania. Therefore, I can assume that long ago, in the 18th century or
earlier my ancestors had lived in those areas.
A second issue is that shared matches frequently bring up the very same
people as a third match to the newly discovered match. This tells me that
the third individual whose name appears often is more definitely a relative
whose ancestry and my own are shared probably not that far back, i.e. early
in the 19th century or in the 18th century by virtue of a marriage of some
sister of an ancestor to me or vice versa.
Just my two cents.
David Goldman
NYC

Where can I get an outline for Ukrainian Jewish Genealogy? I want to create a PowerPoint presentation to start giving talks in Orange County California. I do not want to miss anything.

Michelle Sandler
Vice President of Programming OCJGS
Librarian OCJGS
Westminster California

Where can I get an outline for Ukrainian Jewish Genealogy? I want to create a PowerPoint presentation to start giving talks in Orange County California. I do not want to miss anything.

Michelle Sandler
Vice President of Programming OCJGS
Librarian OCJGS
Westminster California

Dear Genners,

I'm trying to locate other individuals who could've been related to my great grandfather, Lejzer Yudin. He was the son of Berko, listed on the 1907 Kiev Gubernia Duma Voters List, and resided in Demievka in the Kiev district.

Evan Fishman

Dear Genners,

I'm trying to locate other individuals who could've been related to my great grandfather, Lejzer Yudin. He was the son of Berko, listed on the 1907 Kiev Gubernia Duma Voters List, and resided in Demievka in the Kiev district.

Evan Fishman

Jewish Genealogy Society of Maryland
Speakers: Anita and Jeff Knisbacher
Title: "Jewish Soldiers in Blue and Gray"
Date and Time: Sunday, June 23, 2019, 1:30 p.m.
Location: Pikesville Library's meeting room, 1301 Reisterstown Rd,
Pikesville, MD

Please join us on Sunday, June 23, 2019, to hear Anita and Jeff
Knisbacher present "Jewish Soldiers in Blue and Gray." The
presentation includes a film, followed by a discussion of social and
genealogical aspects.

It is not well known that some 10,000 Jewish soldiers fought in the
Civil War, about 7,000 for the North and 3,000 for the South. This
film discusses the different allegiances of these soldiers, some as
slave owners, others as ardent abolitionists, occasionally >from the
same family. Special attention is paid to the case of Grant's
egregious "Order No. 11" expelling Jews >from several states, as well
as to the case of Judah Benjamin, sometimes referred to as the brains
behind the Confederacy. Also covered are two well-known Jewish spies,
one for the Union and one for the Confederacy.

Anita Knisbacher has advanced degrees in instructional technology and
has been a platform instructor both here and in South America since
her teens. Since retirement, she has continued to facilitate learning
via educational positions with the National Council of Jewish Women in
Sarasota, FL, and here in Baltimore with the Beth Tfiloh Sisterhood,
where she conducts regular "Shmooze and Learn" programs among other
activities. She will lead a discussion after the film.

Jeff Knisbacher is a former professor of linguistics, translator, and
government analyst. Since retirement, he has leveraged his languages
to research his family roots in both branches of his family: the
paternal in Galicia and the maternal in Ukraine. He will conclude the
presentation with a brief discussion of the genealogical aspects.

The program is free for paid members and $5 for non-members (applied
to JGSMD membership fee) after their first meeting. Please check our
web site at www.jgsmd.org for late updates and for the time, location,
and program of future meetings.

Susan Steeble
JGSMD Public Relations
Baltimore, MD

Jewish Genealogy Society of Maryland
Speakers: Anita and Jeff Knisbacher
Title: "Jewish Soldiers in Blue and Gray"
Date and Time: Sunday, June 23, 2019, 1:30 p.m.
Location: Pikesville Library's meeting room, 1301 Reisterstown Rd,
Pikesville, MD

Please join us on Sunday, June 23, 2019, to hear Anita and Jeff
Knisbacher present "Jewish Soldiers in Blue and Gray." The
presentation includes a film, followed by a discussion of social and
genealogical aspects.

It is not well known that some 10,000 Jewish soldiers fought in the
Civil War, about 7,000 for the North and 3,000 for the South. This
film discusses the different allegiances of these soldiers, some as
slave owners, others as ardent abolitionists, occasionally >from the
same family. Special attention is paid to the case of Grant's
egregious "Order No. 11" expelling Jews >from several states, as well
as to the case of Judah Benjamin, sometimes referred to as the brains
behind the Confederacy. Also covered are two well-known Jewish spies,
one for the Union and one for the Confederacy.

Anita Knisbacher has advanced degrees in instructional technology and
has been a platform instructor both here and in South America since
her teens. Since retirement, she has continued to facilitate learning
via educational positions with the National Council of Jewish Women in
Sarasota, FL, and here in Baltimore with the Beth Tfiloh Sisterhood,
where she conducts regular "Shmooze and Learn" programs among other
activities. She will lead a discussion after the film.

Jeff Knisbacher is a former professor of linguistics, translator, and
government analyst. Since retirement, he has leveraged his languages
to research his family roots in both branches of his family: the
paternal in Galicia and the maternal in Ukraine. He will conclude the
presentation with a brief discussion of the genealogical aspects.

The program is free for paid members and $5 for non-members (applied
to JGSMD membership fee) after their first meeting. Please check our
web site at www.jgsmd.org for late updates and for the time, location,
and program of future meetings.

Susan Steeble
JGSMD Public Relations
Baltimore, MD

it isn't easy identifying those place names, even using my "usual sources",=
bogardi.com and transindex.

craciunesti has several possibilities, so i'm assuming that it's tiszakaracs=
onyfalva in maramaros megye (47=B058'n 23=B059'e), romania, because that's=
the one that the jewishgen gazetteer lists as having a jewish community. =
(and which is listed in the database as "karacson" rather than=
"karacsony".) and i'm guessing that teresif is the yiddish name for=
present-day teresva, ukraine, known as tarackoz when it was in hungary. =
it's usually helpful to know the "old" names, in addition to the=
present-day place names, because that's what you'll find in old documents=
and in family lore.

what were the laws prohibiting jews >from living in hungary at that time? =
(presumably around 1895, based on their dates of birth.)

=2E...... tom klein, toronto

it isn't easy identifying those place names, even using my "usual sources",=
bogardi.com and transindex.

craciunesti has several possibilities, so i'm assuming that it's tiszakaracs=
onyfalva in maramaros megye (47=B058'n 23=B059'e), romania, because that's=
the one that the jewishgen gazetteer lists as having a jewish community. =
(and which is listed in the database as "karacson" rather than=
"karacsony".) and i'm guessing that teresif is the yiddish name for=
present-day teresva, ukraine, known as tarackoz when it was in hungary. =
it's usually helpful to know the "old" names, in addition to the=
present-day place names, because that's what you'll find in old documents=
and in family lore.

what were the laws prohibiting jews >from living in hungary at that time? =
(presumably around 1895, based on their dates of birth.)

=2E...... tom klein, toronto