Date   

Civil marriage #galicia

Suzan & Ron Wynne <srwynne@...>
 

The topic of civil marriage has been exhaustively covered previously but a
quick overview might help readers to sort among the most recent responses to
the issue for the kernel. Civil marriage was required by the Austrian
government. These marriages were to be performed by government approved
religious figures, including rabbis. However, for various reasons, in
Galicia, religious authorities were not always connected to the Hassidic
communities favored by the vast majority of the people and the Hasidic
leaders were strongly opposed to government interference with marriage.
This opposition had several components: 1) Jewish marriage is not a state
matter but a religious matter; 2) a couple of Austrian rulers in the early
19th century had limited civil Jewish marriage to the oldest son in a
family; and 3) there was a heavy tax on Jews who did marry under civil law.

The laws restricting Jewish civil marriage to the oldest son was repealed by
the time of Franz Josef but the pattern had been established: Jews married
religiously and mostly ignored civil marriage unless they were concerned
about the children inheriting the father's property or there was some other
compelling legal reason for seeking civil marriage. At the close of the
19th century and into the 20th century, as emigration was becoming more
common and the requirements of other countries were becoming more
restrictive, Jews began to have civil marriages to assist with this process.
Entrance into the US required more documentation, including proof of
marriage, for instance.

At this same time, Austria cracked down on those who refused to comply with
civil marriage requirements and birth registrations not only showed the
babies as illegitimate, which had long been the case, but required that the
babies be given the surnames of their mothers. And, unless the father
presented himself and witnesses to prove that the baby was his, chances were
that his name did not even appear on the birth record. This meant that when
the child was enrolled in school (education was mandatory under Franz
Josef), his or her surname would be his mother's.

Thus, in the slim record books of Galicia, one sees a marked increase in the
number of civil marriages after 1880 and by the time of WWI, it is fairly
common to see couples with grandchildren "getting married."

Hope this helps....

Suzan Wynne
Kensington, MD


Gesher Galicia SIG #Galicia Civil marriage #galicia

Suzan & Ron Wynne <srwynne@...>
 

The topic of civil marriage has been exhaustively covered previously but a
quick overview might help readers to sort among the most recent responses to
the issue for the kernel. Civil marriage was required by the Austrian
government. These marriages were to be performed by government approved
religious figures, including rabbis. However, for various reasons, in
Galicia, religious authorities were not always connected to the Hassidic
communities favored by the vast majority of the people and the Hasidic
leaders were strongly opposed to government interference with marriage.
This opposition had several components: 1) Jewish marriage is not a state
matter but a religious matter; 2) a couple of Austrian rulers in the early
19th century had limited civil Jewish marriage to the oldest son in a
family; and 3) there was a heavy tax on Jews who did marry under civil law.

The laws restricting Jewish civil marriage to the oldest son was repealed by
the time of Franz Josef but the pattern had been established: Jews married
religiously and mostly ignored civil marriage unless they were concerned
about the children inheriting the father's property or there was some other
compelling legal reason for seeking civil marriage. At the close of the
19th century and into the 20th century, as emigration was becoming more
common and the requirements of other countries were becoming more
restrictive, Jews began to have civil marriages to assist with this process.
Entrance into the US required more documentation, including proof of
marriage, for instance.

At this same time, Austria cracked down on those who refused to comply with
civil marriage requirements and birth registrations not only showed the
babies as illegitimate, which had long been the case, but required that the
babies be given the surnames of their mothers. And, unless the father
presented himself and witnesses to prove that the baby was his, chances were
that his name did not even appear on the birth record. This meant that when
the child was enrolled in school (education was mandatory under Franz
Josef), his or her surname would be his mother's.

Thus, in the slim record books of Galicia, one sees a marked increase in the
number of civil marriages after 1880 and by the time of WWI, it is fairly
common to see couples with grandchildren "getting married."

Hope this helps....

Suzan Wynne
Kensington, MD


Re: NEW - Belgium holocaust records #france

Eve Line Blum <eve.line.blum@...>
 

At 1:26 -0400 16/08/03, Bernard Kouchel wrote:
I have been asked for additional info about this newspaper article. I did
find this contact info on the museum website--

MUSEUM VAN DEPORTATIE EN VERZET - PRO MUSEO JUDAICO V.Z.W.
Goswin de Stassartstraat 153, 2800 Mechelen - Belgium
E-Mail: infos@...
http://www.cicb.be/eng/shoah/welcome.html
I couldn't find any additional info about that subject on that site.
On the other hand, I found much info there (>from a newspaper dated 26
July 2003).
http://www.google.fr/search?q=cache:93ejCf2yMD8J:www.boston.com/dailynews/207/world/Belgium_takes_long_delayed_loo:.shtml+%22belgium%22+%22mechelen%22+%22envelopes%22&hl=fr&ie=UTF-8
--
Eve Line Blum-Cherchevsky
Besancon (France)
and also
Cercle de Genealogie Juive (International JGS in Paris)
http://www.genealoj.org


Additional sites for Belgium Holocaust documentation-- #france

Bernard Kouchel <koosh@...>
 

Additional sites for Belgium Holocaust documentation--

Jewish Museum of Deportation and the Resistance: http://www.cicb.be

Belgian compensation fund: http://premier.fgov.be (click on Welcome, then
Indemnification Commission)

Belgian Center for Historical Research and Documentation on War and
Contemporary Society: http://www.cegesoma.be

[Extracted >from news item site recommended by Eve Line Blum]
--
koosh@...
Bernard Kouchel


French SIG #France Re: NEW - Belgium holocaust records #france

Eve Line Blum <eve.line.blum@...>
 

At 1:26 -0400 16/08/03, Bernard Kouchel wrote:
I have been asked for additional info about this newspaper article. I did
find this contact info on the museum website--

MUSEUM VAN DEPORTATIE EN VERZET - PRO MUSEO JUDAICO V.Z.W.
Goswin de Stassartstraat 153, 2800 Mechelen - Belgium
E-Mail: infos@...
http://www.cicb.be/eng/shoah/welcome.html
I couldn't find any additional info about that subject on that site.
On the other hand, I found much info there (>from a newspaper dated 26
July 2003).
http://www.google.fr/search?q=cache:93ejCf2yMD8J:www.boston.com/dailynews/207/world/Belgium_takes_long_delayed_loo:.shtml+%22belgium%22+%22mechelen%22+%22envelopes%22&hl=fr&ie=UTF-8
--
Eve Line Blum-Cherchevsky
Besancon (France)
and also
Cercle de Genealogie Juive (International JGS in Paris)
http://www.genealoj.org


French SIG #France Additional sites for Belgium Holocaust documentation-- #france

Bernard Kouchel <koosh@...>
 

Additional sites for Belgium Holocaust documentation--

Jewish Museum of Deportation and the Resistance: http://www.cicb.be

Belgian compensation fund: http://premier.fgov.be (click on Welcome, then
Indemnification Commission)

Belgian Center for Historical Research and Documentation on War and
Contemporary Society: http://www.cegesoma.be

[Extracted >from news item site recommended by Eve Line Blum]
--
koosh@...
Bernard Kouchel


Re: Genners' responsibility for their postings #general

MBernet@...
 

In a message dated 8/14/2003 5:19:48 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
killshot@... writes:

<< I am very sorry for the confusion and the consequent debate but Kacze
(Kachka) was my grandmother's family name, not given name.

==That certainly paints a different picture. Your gm
may have been related to Hebrew writer and 1967
Nobel Laureate in Literature (1888 - 1980) Shmuel
Yosef AGNON, whose original family name was CZACZKES.

==Even if the name meant duck, which might possibly
not be an ofensivee name in a particular culture
(cf "chick"), as a surname it would certainly be no
more "offensive" than relatively common surnames
like RINDSKOPF (cattle head) or the rarer KLEINMAUS
(little mouse, but perhaps it was Mauskopf) of the
current US prosecutor for the New York area.

==I wrote the above partly to justify the following
request:

==The contoverssy about the meaning and origin of the
Kacze (Kachka) name started many weeks ago and got
quite heated. It caused rifts in the online
relationship of quite a Jewishgenners. It took up
much energy we might have devoted to more productive
gen efforts. Please, if you post a query about your
family:

1. Make absolutely sure you have your facts straight
2. Check up regularly on ALL the responses to your query.
People are doing you a favor when they respond to your query.
They deserve to know immediately if you have new
information or if there has been a mistake in the query.

==We could have saved ourselves many angry words
and feelings had these simple rules been followed.

Michael Bernet, New York

MODERATOR NOTE: JewishGen policy specifically prohibits
any messages being posted that may be seen as being
in any way angry in tone or derogatory towards members.
Such messages should be posted off-list, if at all.
Jewish genealogy should be a fun activity - let's
keep it that way!


JewishGen Discussion Group #JewishGen Re: Genners' responsibility for their postings #general

MBernet@...
 

In a message dated 8/14/2003 5:19:48 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
killshot@... writes:

<< I am very sorry for the confusion and the consequent debate but Kacze
(Kachka) was my grandmother's family name, not given name.

==That certainly paints a different picture. Your gm
may have been related to Hebrew writer and 1967
Nobel Laureate in Literature (1888 - 1980) Shmuel
Yosef AGNON, whose original family name was CZACZKES.

==Even if the name meant duck, which might possibly
not be an ofensivee name in a particular culture
(cf "chick"), as a surname it would certainly be no
more "offensive" than relatively common surnames
like RINDSKOPF (cattle head) or the rarer KLEINMAUS
(little mouse, but perhaps it was Mauskopf) of the
current US prosecutor for the New York area.

==I wrote the above partly to justify the following
request:

==The contoverssy about the meaning and origin of the
Kacze (Kachka) name started many weeks ago and got
quite heated. It caused rifts in the online
relationship of quite a Jewishgenners. It took up
much energy we might have devoted to more productive
gen efforts. Please, if you post a query about your
family:

1. Make absolutely sure you have your facts straight
2. Check up regularly on ALL the responses to your query.
People are doing you a favor when they respond to your query.
They deserve to know immediately if you have new
information or if there has been a mistake in the query.

==We could have saved ourselves many angry words
and feelings had these simple rules been followed.

Michael Bernet, New York

MODERATOR NOTE: JewishGen policy specifically prohibits
any messages being posted that may be seen as being
in any way angry in tone or derogatory towards members.
Such messages should be posted off-list, if at all.
Jewish genealogy should be a fun activity - let's
keep it that way!


Re: Hebrew Names #bessarabia

chaikin <chaikin@...>
 

Robert Israel israel@... wrote:

The resh probably has a very small apostrophe after it: it stands for
"Reb", which basically means "Mr." The vav should be a zayin,
and yod-het-zayin-qof-aleph-lamed is "Yechezkel", which is equivalent to
Ezekiel.

=Robert is right with regard to "Yechezkel", but
there is no "Reb". "Reb" should have appeared before
the first name "Meir", and not in the middle between
two names. It is just a too big letter "yod" which
looks like "resh":-))

Best regards,
Udi Cain, Jerusalem.


JewishGen Discussion Group #JewishGen Re: Hebrew Names #general

chaikin <chaikin@...>
 

Robert Israel israel@... wrote:

The resh probably has a very small apostrophe after it: it stands for
"Reb", which basically means "Mr." The vav should be a zayin,
and yod-het-zayin-qof-aleph-lamed is "Yechezkel", which is equivalent to
Ezekiel.

=Robert is right with regard to "Yechezkel", but
there is no "Reb". "Reb" should have appeared before
the first name "Meir", and not in the middle between
two names. It is just a too big letter "yod" which
looks like "resh":-))

Best regards,
Udi Cain, Jerusalem.


Re: Hebrew Names #bessarabia

MBernet@...
 

In a message dated 8/14/2003 9:59:38 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
shelcohe@... writes:

<< *****************************************************

Can someone please determine pronunciation of the
following Hebrew names as copied >from old grave
stones?

1. pe-nun mem-alef-yod-resh

2. resh-yod-het-vav-qop-alef-lamed

3. pe-nun-he-alef-shin-he-het nun-he

4. vav-vav (or zayin)-alef-lamed-pe >>

==Can you twll us which lines go together on one
stone? Or are they four differet stones?

==I can tell you the first line. You'll find the
letters peh-nun at the top of almost every
tombstone. They are abbreviations for "poh nikbar[ah]
" or "poh nitman[ah]." They both mean the same
"Here is buried"; the [ah] suffix, if it had
been written out, would indicate that the grave
is that of a female. The scond word on line 1 is
Me'ir, a common first name meaning roughly "he brings
light," "enlightener" or "illuminator."

==the second line seems to be a mistransliteration. My
guess is it starts with a resh followed by an
apostrophe and stands for "Reb" (mister). The
vav is probably a zayin and the word is the name
Yechezkel (a variant on Yechezki'el, i.e. Ezekiel.)
Among friends and family he would probably have
been known as Chasskel.

==The third starts, like the first, with Peh-nun,
then comes the four letters of the word "ha'ishah"
(the woman, wife, lady . . ); the last three letters
belong together and spell out the name Channah (Hannah)

==the fourth line strarts with two vavs (not zayins)
and spells the name Wolff. This is German and Yiddish
for the Hebrew names Benyamin or Ze'ev. Someone
named Wolff within the community often has a secular
name beginning with W, eg William, Walter.

==-You might have done better to post viewmate
images so that we can make sure of the actual
spellings. It's always helpful to give a rough date,
a geographical location, and the prominent details
with any query that you post..

==If you write me privately, I'll be happy to tell
you about a handy guide to the Hebrew alphabet,
prepared especially for genealogists, that helps you
clearly identify (in 12 different fonts) letters
that look alike (e.g. vav/zayin,
heh/chet, bet/kaf, nun/gimmal) and gives other
hints for deiphering Hebrew texts, inscriptions
and tombstones.

Michael Bernet, New York

MODERATOR NOTE: An InfoFile on interpreting Hebrew
headstones is available at:
http://www.jewishgen.org/InfoFiles/tombstones.html


JewishGen Discussion Group #JewishGen Re: Hebrew Names #general

MBernet@...
 

In a message dated 8/14/2003 9:59:38 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
shelcohe@... writes:

<< *****************************************************

Can someone please determine pronunciation of the
following Hebrew names as copied >from old grave
stones?

1. pe-nun mem-alef-yod-resh

2. resh-yod-het-vav-qop-alef-lamed

3. pe-nun-he-alef-shin-he-het nun-he

4. vav-vav (or zayin)-alef-lamed-pe >>

==Can you twll us which lines go together on one
stone? Or are they four differet stones?

==I can tell you the first line. You'll find the
letters peh-nun at the top of almost every
tombstone. They are abbreviations for "poh nikbar[ah]
" or "poh nitman[ah]." They both mean the same
"Here is buried"; the [ah] suffix, if it had
been written out, would indicate that the grave
is that of a female. The scond word on line 1 is
Me'ir, a common first name meaning roughly "he brings
light," "enlightener" or "illuminator."

==the second line seems to be a mistransliteration. My
guess is it starts with a resh followed by an
apostrophe and stands for "Reb" (mister). The
vav is probably a zayin and the word is the name
Yechezkel (a variant on Yechezki'el, i.e. Ezekiel.)
Among friends and family he would probably have
been known as Chasskel.

==The third starts, like the first, with Peh-nun,
then comes the four letters of the word "ha'ishah"
(the woman, wife, lady . . ); the last three letters
belong together and spell out the name Channah (Hannah)

==the fourth line strarts with two vavs (not zayins)
and spells the name Wolff. This is German and Yiddish
for the Hebrew names Benyamin or Ze'ev. Someone
named Wolff within the community often has a secular
name beginning with W, eg William, Walter.

==-You might have done better to post viewmate
images so that we can make sure of the actual
spellings. It's always helpful to give a rough date,
a geographical location, and the prominent details
with any query that you post..

==If you write me privately, I'll be happy to tell
you about a handy guide to the Hebrew alphabet,
prepared especially for genealogists, that helps you
clearly identify (in 12 different fonts) letters
that look alike (e.g. vav/zayin,
heh/chet, bet/kaf, nun/gimmal) and gives other
hints for deiphering Hebrew texts, inscriptions
and tombstones.

Michael Bernet, New York

MODERATOR NOTE: An InfoFile on interpreting Hebrew
headstones is available at:
http://www.jewishgen.org/InfoFiles/tombstones.html


Re: Naming the Research Group #poland

Bialystoker
 

As a result of the massive power blackout in Canada and the US,
which may have affected some members' ability to vote in a timely
manner, we are extending the deadline to 8:00 PM on Sunday,
August 17 (Central Daylight Savings Time).

All the particulars of the vote are repeated below.

If you have not voted, please do so now. Remember to send your vote to
< Bialystoker@... > and not to this discussion group.

Mark Halpern
Coordinator, ...

----- Original Message -----
All the nominations for this Group's name are now in. The next
step is the voting.

For those who have recently joined, this group was initially
named Bialystok Region Research Group (BRRG). However, members of
this group thought that other acronyms or names would be more
suitable. So the following names and/or acronyms have been
suggested and will be voted upon now.

1. BRRG -- Bialystok Region Research Group

2. BIALY -- Bialystok Interest Association for Locating Yicchus

3. BIALY -- Bialystok Interest Ancestral Legacy Y-not

4. BIALY -- Bialystok Interest Association in the Lineage of
Yesteryear

5. BIALY -- Beloved In A Legacy of Yesteryear

6. BIALY -- Bialystok Region Research Group (no acronym)

7. BialyRIG -- Bialystok Region Interest Group

8. BIALY -- BIAlystok Legacy & Yizkor

9. BIALYGen -- Bialystok Region Jewish Genealogy Group (no
acronym)

10. BIALYICHUS

Every member of the Discussion Group has one vote. Please vote
by sending an email to bialystoker@..., providing the
number for which you are voting (#1 through #10 above). In the subject
of your email, place the word VOTE. Your vote needs to be
received by 8 AM Houston time (Central Daylight Savings Time in
the US) on Friday, August 15 to be counted.

The winner will be decided by a simple plurality -- the name
with the greatest number of votes.

Please vote early.

Coordinator, ...


BialyGen: Bialystok Region #Bialystok #Poland Re: Naming the Research Group #poland

Bialystoker
 

As a result of the massive power blackout in Canada and the US,
which may have affected some members' ability to vote in a timely
manner, we are extending the deadline to 8:00 PM on Sunday,
August 17 (Central Daylight Savings Time).

All the particulars of the vote are repeated below.

If you have not voted, please do so now. Remember to send your vote to
< Bialystoker@... > and not to this discussion group.

Mark Halpern
Coordinator, ...

----- Original Message -----
All the nominations for this Group's name are now in. The next
step is the voting.

For those who have recently joined, this group was initially
named Bialystok Region Research Group (BRRG). However, members of
this group thought that other acronyms or names would be more
suitable. So the following names and/or acronyms have been
suggested and will be voted upon now.

1. BRRG -- Bialystok Region Research Group

2. BIALY -- Bialystok Interest Association for Locating Yicchus

3. BIALY -- Bialystok Interest Ancestral Legacy Y-not

4. BIALY -- Bialystok Interest Association in the Lineage of
Yesteryear

5. BIALY -- Beloved In A Legacy of Yesteryear

6. BIALY -- Bialystok Region Research Group (no acronym)

7. BialyRIG -- Bialystok Region Interest Group

8. BIALY -- BIAlystok Legacy & Yizkor

9. BIALYGen -- Bialystok Region Jewish Genealogy Group (no
acronym)

10. BIALYICHUS

Every member of the Discussion Group has one vote. Please vote
by sending an email to bialystoker@..., providing the
number for which you are voting (#1 through #10 above). In the subject
of your email, place the word VOTE. Your vote needs to be
received by 8 AM Houston time (Central Daylight Savings Time in
the US) on Friday, August 15 to be counted.

The winner will be decided by a simple plurality -- the name
with the greatest number of votes.

Please vote early.

Coordinator, ...


Referenced question: Budapest Dist. 7 Royal State Grammar School #hungary

MGS18@...
 

Can anyone tell me anything about the following school in Budapest:

District 7 Hungarian Royal State Madach Imre Grammar School

1) Does "Royal State Grammar School" signify public school? Did Jews and
non-Jews attend?

2) If a student was enrolled for the school year: 1933-1934 and was in
class 7a, what grade or approximate age equivalent would this be?

REPLY TO SENDER ONLY: mgs18@...

Thanks in advance-I will notify the listserv when I learn the answer so
people don't have to keep emailing.

Mindy Soclof
Ann Arbor, Michigan


Hungary SIG #Hungary Referenced question: Budapest Dist. 7 Royal State Grammar School #hungary

MGS18@...
 

Can anyone tell me anything about the following school in Budapest:

District 7 Hungarian Royal State Madach Imre Grammar School

1) Does "Royal State Grammar School" signify public school? Did Jews and
non-Jews attend?

2) If a student was enrolled for the school year: 1933-1934 and was in
class 7a, what grade or approximate age equivalent would this be?

REPLY TO SENDER ONLY: mgs18@...

Thanks in advance-I will notify the listserv when I learn the answer so
people don't have to keep emailing.

Mindy Soclof
Ann Arbor, Michigan


please contact #hungary

alex p miller <alex-miller@...>
 

Aaron Rosenberger, please contact me in private

Best Regards,

Alex Miller, Reading, PA


Re: Rausnitz #hungary

AttilaRona@...
 

Could anyone help me find the location and Chech name of Rausnitz, Moravia?

Thanks,

Attila Rona


Hungary SIG #Hungary please contact #hungary

alex p miller <alex-miller@...>
 

Aaron Rosenberger, please contact me in private

Best Regards,

Alex Miller, Reading, PA


Hungary SIG #Hungary Re: Rausnitz #hungary

AttilaRona@...
 

Could anyone help me find the location and Chech name of Rausnitz, Moravia?

Thanks,

Attila Rona