Date   

My experiences with dodging the draft #belarus

MRS. H.R. COOPER <HOWGLADCOOP@...>
 

In 1939, when the US Gov't. was preparing for the draft for military
service, a relative of the family met with an unfortunate accident,
causing him a serious leg break which put him in the hospital for
months, and left him with a deformed leg. This made him exempt >from
the draft, for he was in his early 20's at that time. His father was
a rough and generally mean person, but no one thought the accident was
anything but an unfortunate accident.

It was just brought to light that the accident was no accident. His
father hit the leg with a large hammer, breaking it. True or false,
we cannot know, for the participants are all deceased, and others in
the family would not or cannot verify the story.

A close friend of mine, who became a Merchant Seaman to avoid the draft
in 1943, ended up being twice torpedoed in the North Atlantic. When
the Korean War started, he was called up for the army.
In order to fail the physical, we kept him up all night before the day
he was to take the physical. We forced gallons of black coffee into
him, and kept him >from sleep all night.
It almost worked, for his heart rate was very high, and other symptoms
showed up as well. They kept him for 2 days and nights, until his
symptoms became normal, then he was inducted into the army.
After spending 4 years and getting a commission, he went on to being
a career soldier, and loved the military. One cannot compare the life
in our military to the horrid conditions of the Russian military.
I never cared for military life, but won some air medals and other
decorations in the 15th AAF in 1944. Only after returning stateside,
was I informed that combat flying was voluntary, and I could have
refused to fly if I so desired.

Howard Cooper
howgladcoop@...
Staten Island, NY

Seeking families named COOPER/CUPER/KUPER, SHEPSHEVITZ/SHEBSHEVICH/
>from Mir or Touretz/Terecz, Belarus
HYATT/CHAYET/ CHAET/ JAFFE/YAFFE >from Skapiskis, kupiskis, Lithuania


Re: False Documentation #belarus

Avrum Lapin <avrum113@...>
 

As i read these posts on false documentation I am reminded that
until quite recently forged "Green Cards", Social Security cards
and Driver's Licences were openly hawked in certain parts of LA.
While I admit that copying machines did not exist 100 years ago
I am sure there were persons selling papers in most major European
cities.

The immigrant's second greatest fear (after being rejected at
Ellis Island) was that some documentation transgression might
result in deportation.

Also consider the following - most parents are not forthcoming
about youthful transgressions.

Avrum Lapin
Upland., CA


Belarus SIG #Belarus Re: False Documentation #belarus

Avrum Lapin <avrum113@...>
 

As i read these posts on false documentation I am reminded that
until quite recently forged "Green Cards", Social Security cards
and Driver's Licences were openly hawked in certain parts of LA.
While I admit that copying machines did not exist 100 years ago
I am sure there were persons selling papers in most major European
cities.

The immigrant's second greatest fear (after being rejected at
Ellis Island) was that some documentation transgression might
result in deportation.

Also consider the following - most parents are not forthcoming
about youthful transgressions.

Avrum Lapin
Upland., CA


Belarus SIG #Belarus My experiences with dodging the draft #belarus

MRS. H.R. COOPER <HOWGLADCOOP@...>
 

In 1939, when the US Gov't. was preparing for the draft for military
service, a relative of the family met with an unfortunate accident,
causing him a serious leg break which put him in the hospital for
months, and left him with a deformed leg. This made him exempt >from
the draft, for he was in his early 20's at that time. His father was
a rough and generally mean person, but no one thought the accident was
anything but an unfortunate accident.

It was just brought to light that the accident was no accident. His
father hit the leg with a large hammer, breaking it. True or false,
we cannot know, for the participants are all deceased, and others in
the family would not or cannot verify the story.

A close friend of mine, who became a Merchant Seaman to avoid the draft
in 1943, ended up being twice torpedoed in the North Atlantic. When
the Korean War started, he was called up for the army.
In order to fail the physical, we kept him up all night before the day
he was to take the physical. We forced gallons of black coffee into
him, and kept him >from sleep all night.
It almost worked, for his heart rate was very high, and other symptoms
showed up as well. They kept him for 2 days and nights, until his
symptoms became normal, then he was inducted into the army.
After spending 4 years and getting a commission, he went on to being
a career soldier, and loved the military. One cannot compare the life
in our military to the horrid conditions of the Russian military.
I never cared for military life, but won some air medals and other
decorations in the 15th AAF in 1944. Only after returning stateside,
was I informed that combat flying was voluntary, and I could have
refused to fly if I so desired.

Howard Cooper
howgladcoop@...
Staten Island, NY

Seeking families named COOPER/CUPER/KUPER, SHEPSHEVITZ/SHEBSHEVICH/
>from Mir or Touretz/Terecz, Belarus
HYATT/CHAYET/ CHAET/ JAFFE/YAFFE >from Skapiskis, kupiskis, Lithuania


Fw: Planning visit to dokshitz, seeking advice #belarus

Joel Alpert <ALPERT@...>
 

-----Original Message-----

I planing to visit dokshitz this spring. will travel there with my
wife and an ukrainian driver >from ukraine. would like to hear >from
people with most recent information.

isaak kugel, son of yisroel kugel.

Dear Isaak,

I was in Dokshitz at 1989. To Dokshitz you can only get through
Minsk, where you can rent a car and go. I don't know where are you
coming from, but you don't have to take a driver >from Ukraina, you
can take him >from Minsk. There are no trains/planes which are going
to Dokshitz. At Minsk we stayed at Lubileijne Hotel, which was very
nice. At Dokshitz there is only one guest house.

Have a nice trip,

Yechzkel Levitan.


Re: "Jack" Equivalent in Yiddish and Russian #belarus

Norma Brewer <nlbrewer@...>
 

At 10:04 03-02-01 -0800, A Falkin wrote:
..snip..
Does anyone know what a Yiddish, or Hebrew, or Russian equivalent
to the first name Jack may be?
--------------
The Yiddish for Jack is Yankif - that is the name of my pgf.
His Hebrew name was Yaakov- ie Jacob There is a Russian name
that is the same, but I can't remember it.

Hope this is of help

What an intersting, far flung family you have.

Norma (Nachama) Brewer
nlbrfewer@...
Researching Segalof,Friedland, Levine, Bercovitch-family names


seeking isaak kugel #belarus

Joel Alpert <ALPERT@...>
 

Your email address is not good. Please send the proper one.

Joel Alpert


JGS Oregon, February 21st Meeting #general

Ronald D. Doctor <rondoctor@...>
 

The Jewish Genealogical Society of Oregon (JGSO) invites you to JGSO's
February meeting.

Date: Wednesday, February 21, 2001
Time: 7:30 pm to 9:00 pm
Place: Mittleman Jewish Community Center (MJCC)
6651 SW Capitol Highway
Portland, Oregon

The meeting features a presentation on

Newspaper Obituaries in Genealogical Research
A Good Starting Point

presented by Nancy Munk Christie

Nancy is an amateur genealogist who volunteers to look up Portland-area
newspaper obituaries for researchers around the world. She will discuss:

* Locally available records and how to get them
* Getting obituaries >from other areas without leaving home
* Where obituaries can lead you -- next steps
* Accuracy in obituaries
* Success stories

This event is FREE to JGSO members. Contribution of $2 at the door is
requested >from non-members. Contribution is credited to membership if you
join JGSO at the meeting. Light refreshments will be available.

This meeting continues our new SHMOOZE session. >from 7:30 to 8:00 pm,
browse through the resources that JGSO will have available and talk to
JGSO experts about genealogy problems you have encountered.

For more information or questions, call Abby Menashe, JGSO, 503-245-5196,
or e-mail rondoctor@...

For more information about JGSO and its activities, visit the JGSO web site
at: http://www.rootsweb.com/~orjgs

To be placed on JGS of Oregon's e-mail distribution list, send an e-mail
message to rondoctor@.... Once you are on the list, you will receive
periodic messages concerning Jewish Genealogy. Your name and e-mail
address will not be distributed outside of JGS of Oregon.

The JGSO is a part of the Mittleman Jewish Community Center and is
affiliated with the International Association of Jewish Genealogical
Societies (IAJGS).

Ron Doctor
President, JGS Oregon


Belarus SIG #Belarus seeking isaak kugel #belarus

Joel Alpert <ALPERT@...>
 

Your email address is not good. Please send the proper one.

Joel Alpert


Belarus SIG #Belarus Re: "Jack" Equivalent in Yiddish and Russian #belarus

Norma Brewer <nlbrewer@...>
 

At 10:04 03-02-01 -0800, A Falkin wrote:
..snip..
Does anyone know what a Yiddish, or Hebrew, or Russian equivalent
to the first name Jack may be?
--------------
The Yiddish for Jack is Yankif - that is the name of my pgf.
His Hebrew name was Yaakov- ie Jacob There is a Russian name
that is the same, but I can't remember it.

Hope this is of help

What an intersting, far flung family you have.

Norma (Nachama) Brewer
nlbrfewer@...
Researching Segalof,Friedland, Levine, Bercovitch-family names


Belarus SIG #Belarus Fw: Planning visit to dokshitz, seeking advice #belarus

Joel Alpert <ALPERT@...>
 

-----Original Message-----

I planing to visit dokshitz this spring. will travel there with my
wife and an ukrainian driver >from ukraine. would like to hear >from
people with most recent information.

isaak kugel, son of yisroel kugel.

Dear Isaak,

I was in Dokshitz at 1989. To Dokshitz you can only get through
Minsk, where you can rent a car and go. I don't know where are you
coming from, but you don't have to take a driver >from Ukraina, you
can take him >from Minsk. There are no trains/planes which are going
to Dokshitz. At Minsk we stayed at Lubileijne Hotel, which was very
nice. At Dokshitz there is only one guest house.

Have a nice trip,

Yechzkel Levitan.


JewishGen Discussion Group #JewishGen JGS Oregon, February 21st Meeting #general

Ronald D. Doctor <rondoctor@...>
 

The Jewish Genealogical Society of Oregon (JGSO) invites you to JGSO's
February meeting.

Date: Wednesday, February 21, 2001
Time: 7:30 pm to 9:00 pm
Place: Mittleman Jewish Community Center (MJCC)
6651 SW Capitol Highway
Portland, Oregon

The meeting features a presentation on

Newspaper Obituaries in Genealogical Research
A Good Starting Point

presented by Nancy Munk Christie

Nancy is an amateur genealogist who volunteers to look up Portland-area
newspaper obituaries for researchers around the world. She will discuss:

* Locally available records and how to get them
* Getting obituaries >from other areas without leaving home
* Where obituaries can lead you -- next steps
* Accuracy in obituaries
* Success stories

This event is FREE to JGSO members. Contribution of $2 at the door is
requested >from non-members. Contribution is credited to membership if you
join JGSO at the meeting. Light refreshments will be available.

This meeting continues our new SHMOOZE session. >from 7:30 to 8:00 pm,
browse through the resources that JGSO will have available and talk to
JGSO experts about genealogy problems you have encountered.

For more information or questions, call Abby Menashe, JGSO, 503-245-5196,
or e-mail rondoctor@...

For more information about JGSO and its activities, visit the JGSO web site
at: http://www.rootsweb.com/~orjgs

To be placed on JGS of Oregon's e-mail distribution list, send an e-mail
message to rondoctor@.... Once you are on the list, you will receive
periodic messages concerning Jewish Genealogy. Your name and e-mail
address will not be distributed outside of JGS of Oregon.

The JGSO is a part of the Mittleman Jewish Community Center and is
affiliated with the International Association of Jewish Genealogical
Societies (IAJGS).

Ron Doctor
President, JGS Oregon


Re: Irving BERLIN #general

Wachtel@...
 

On Wed, 31 Jan 2001 , "Stephen A. Cohen" <gen@...> wrote:
<< In the Jan 28th digest, Eleanor Weber Dickman asked for information
about Louis Berlin >from Bobr, Mogilev Russia.

While I can't help her directly and normally this response would be made
privately, I remembered seeing the Avotaynu Spring/Summer 2000 catalogue
which had on its cover the World War 1 registration record of the famous
composer Irving Berlin. Among his compositions was "God Bless America".

The registration shows that he was born May 11, 1888 in Mogilov Russia
which is now part of Belarus. Since the surname is the same as was the
district, it is possible that he was related to her family. >>

On 01 Feb 2001 , Betty Provizer Starkman (bettejoy@...) wrote:
<< Irving Berlin was born Izak Beilin. Some of the family kept the
original surname, others use BALINE/ BERLIN. >>

On Thu, 1 Feb 2001 18:11:01 EST Alice Josephs (Genealicej@...) wrote:
<< I have an interesting book I picked up once in a remaindered bookshop
called Irving Berlin and Ragtime America by Ian Whitcomb ISBN 0 7126 1664 0
which the blurb pronounces has the theme of the "creation of American
popular music in the early years of this century .." I enjoyed reading it
and it gives something of the background of Irving BERLIN, as well as a
number of other composers.

Born Israel BALINE in Temun, Siberia, an illegal settlement outside The
Pale. Child of Leah and Moses, a cantor, and had seven siblings. Arrived in
New York 1892. >>

Irving Berlin's origins have been the subject of much mystery and
confusion. "Irving Berlin: A Daughter's Memoir," by his daughter Mary
Ellin Barrett, reveals that his family came >from Tolochin in Mogilev
guberniya, and I've collected a number of records of his brothers and
sisters showing that this is true. That's why Irving's draft registration
and several other records give his birthplace as Mogilev.

But Irving, the youngest child, is also frequently said to have been born
in Temun, usually identified as Tyumen in Siberia. The family believes his
father, Moses, a cantor, had taken a temporary position there, but there
are no records one way or the other. I think it could instead have been
one of several villages named Tyumen or Tumen in Belarus or Ukraine.

Betty Provizer Starkman is right that the family name was originally
BEILIN. That's what their passenger arrival list shows. It was altered to
BALINE in the United States, and eventually Americanized to BERLIN by
some, but not all, branches.

Because of the name change, it's unlikely that Eleanor Weber Dickman's
Louis Berlin >from Bobr was a relative. Alexander Beider's "A Dictionary of
Jewish Surnames >from the Russian Empire" lists the surname Berlin as being
found in Mogilev district.

Alan Wachtel
Palo Alto, California
Wachtel@...


JewishGen Discussion Group #JewishGen Re: Irving BERLIN #general

Wachtel@...
 

On Wed, 31 Jan 2001 , "Stephen A. Cohen" <gen@...> wrote:
<< In the Jan 28th digest, Eleanor Weber Dickman asked for information
about Louis Berlin >from Bobr, Mogilev Russia.

While I can't help her directly and normally this response would be made
privately, I remembered seeing the Avotaynu Spring/Summer 2000 catalogue
which had on its cover the World War 1 registration record of the famous
composer Irving Berlin. Among his compositions was "God Bless America".

The registration shows that he was born May 11, 1888 in Mogilov Russia
which is now part of Belarus. Since the surname is the same as was the
district, it is possible that he was related to her family. >>

On 01 Feb 2001 , Betty Provizer Starkman (bettejoy@...) wrote:
<< Irving Berlin was born Izak Beilin. Some of the family kept the
original surname, others use BALINE/ BERLIN. >>

On Thu, 1 Feb 2001 18:11:01 EST Alice Josephs (Genealicej@...) wrote:
<< I have an interesting book I picked up once in a remaindered bookshop
called Irving Berlin and Ragtime America by Ian Whitcomb ISBN 0 7126 1664 0
which the blurb pronounces has the theme of the "creation of American
popular music in the early years of this century .." I enjoyed reading it
and it gives something of the background of Irving BERLIN, as well as a
number of other composers.

Born Israel BALINE in Temun, Siberia, an illegal settlement outside The
Pale. Child of Leah and Moses, a cantor, and had seven siblings. Arrived in
New York 1892. >>

Irving Berlin's origins have been the subject of much mystery and
confusion. "Irving Berlin: A Daughter's Memoir," by his daughter Mary
Ellin Barrett, reveals that his family came >from Tolochin in Mogilev
guberniya, and I've collected a number of records of his brothers and
sisters showing that this is true. That's why Irving's draft registration
and several other records give his birthplace as Mogilev.

But Irving, the youngest child, is also frequently said to have been born
in Temun, usually identified as Tyumen in Siberia. The family believes his
father, Moses, a cantor, had taken a temporary position there, but there
are no records one way or the other. I think it could instead have been
one of several villages named Tyumen or Tumen in Belarus or Ukraine.

Betty Provizer Starkman is right that the family name was originally
BEILIN. That's what their passenger arrival list shows. It was altered to
BALINE in the United States, and eventually Americanized to BERLIN by
some, but not all, branches.

Because of the name change, it's unlikely that Eleanor Weber Dickman's
Louis Berlin >from Bobr was a relative. Alexander Beider's "A Dictionary of
Jewish Surnames >from the Russian Empire" lists the surname Berlin as being
found in Mogilev district.

Alan Wachtel
Palo Alto, California
Wachtel@...


Latvia SIG #Latvia Conference from Shoah to Tikkun Olam #latvia

Arlene Beare <arl@...>
 

NOTE...DEADLINE FOR PROPOSED PAPERS IS FEB. 7th
There will also be some programs for Second Generation
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
">from the Holocaust to Healing the World
>from the Shoah to Tikkun Olam"
Jewish Child Survivors of the Holocaust, Houston and
Second Generation Jewish Holocaust Survivors
Public Forum on Children and Genocide
International Conference - Westin Galleria Hotel
Houston, Texas - October 14-16, 2001
Co-Sponsored by: World Federation of Jewish Child Survivors of the
Holocaust, Holocaust Museum Houston and Rice University
The Public Forum on Children and Genocide is dedicated to
furthering the understanding of the long-term effects of genocide upon
child survivors throughout the world, past and present. A major focus
of the forum will be the discussion by experts on what can be learned
from child survivors of the Holocaust and how those lessons can help
other children, worldwide, who are survivors of genocide today.
Scholars, historians, educators, members of the therapeutic
community, graduate students, and others knowledgeable about the subject
of children and genocide are invited to submit presentations in any form,
including, but not restricted to, lecture, panel, or seminar. There will
be 4 tracks:
1) The historical track will examine children's actual experiences in
the Holocaust, the framework in which these occurred and their aftermath.
2) The therapeutic track will look at the psyche and psychology of the
survivor as child and adult. Holocaust child survivors and children in
countries such as Bosnia, Cambodia, and Rwanda.
3) The educational track will address teaching about Children In The
Holocaust and other genocides in schools, universities, and other
learning institutions.
4) The general track will address the often-ignored effects of
genocidal wars on children and will consider the Holocaust and other
genocides >from various perspectives.
Submissions Accompanied By Page Listing Name(s) Of Presenter(s),
Addresses, Tel., Type Of Presentation, Length (30-90minutes), CV.,
proposal 2-5 pages, double spaced, in English. No returns unless
accompanied with a self-addressed envelope with postage.
DEADLINE FOR SUBMISSION: FEBRUARY 7, 2001
from THE SHOAH TO TIKUN OLAM CONFERENCE
Holocaust Museum Houston
5401 Caroline
Houston, TX 77004
Or by e-mail: ChildH2001@...
Acceptance will be mailed by May 1, 2001.
Contact by e-mail only.
For more information see
< http://www.jewishgen.org/JewishGen/ChildPresentations.htm >
Chaja Verveer
Houston, TX
mailto:ChajaV@...


Conference from Shoah to Tikkun Olam #latvia

Arlene Beare <arl@...>
 

NOTE...DEADLINE FOR PROPOSED PAPERS IS FEB. 7th
There will also be some programs for Second Generation
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
">from the Holocaust to Healing the World
>from the Shoah to Tikkun Olam"
Jewish Child Survivors of the Holocaust, Houston and
Second Generation Jewish Holocaust Survivors
Public Forum on Children and Genocide
International Conference - Westin Galleria Hotel
Houston, Texas - October 14-16, 2001
Co-Sponsored by: World Federation of Jewish Child Survivors of the
Holocaust, Holocaust Museum Houston and Rice University
The Public Forum on Children and Genocide is dedicated to
furthering the understanding of the long-term effects of genocide upon
child survivors throughout the world, past and present. A major focus
of the forum will be the discussion by experts on what can be learned
from child survivors of the Holocaust and how those lessons can help
other children, worldwide, who are survivors of genocide today.
Scholars, historians, educators, members of the therapeutic
community, graduate students, and others knowledgeable about the subject
of children and genocide are invited to submit presentations in any form,
including, but not restricted to, lecture, panel, or seminar. There will
be 4 tracks:
1) The historical track will examine children's actual experiences in
the Holocaust, the framework in which these occurred and their aftermath.
2) The therapeutic track will look at the psyche and psychology of the
survivor as child and adult. Holocaust child survivors and children in
countries such as Bosnia, Cambodia, and Rwanda.
3) The educational track will address teaching about Children In The
Holocaust and other genocides in schools, universities, and other
learning institutions.
4) The general track will address the often-ignored effects of
genocidal wars on children and will consider the Holocaust and other
genocides >from various perspectives.
Submissions Accompanied By Page Listing Name(s) Of Presenter(s),
Addresses, Tel., Type Of Presentation, Length (30-90minutes), CV.,
proposal 2-5 pages, double spaced, in English. No returns unless
accompanied with a self-addressed envelope with postage.
DEADLINE FOR SUBMISSION: FEBRUARY 7, 2001
from THE SHOAH TO TIKUN OLAM CONFERENCE
Holocaust Museum Houston
5401 Caroline
Houston, TX 77004
Or by e-mail: ChildH2001@...
Acceptance will be mailed by May 1, 2001.
Contact by e-mail only.
For more information see
< http://www.jewishgen.org/JewishGen/ChildPresentations.htm >
Chaja Verveer
Houston, TX
mailto:ChajaV@...


Re: Letters of the Hungarian alphabet #hungary

Gabor Hirsch <hirsch@...>
 

David and BethLong schrieb:

Since no Hungarians have responded to this question so far, I'll tell you
what I know:

There are no "accents" or "umlauts" in Hungarian: each of the following
vowels: o, o, o, o  is a separate letter (each with its own unique and
consistant pronunciation). Likewise, there are both a and a, e and e, i and
i, u, u, and u. The "long" vowels are usually written either "o" or "o" on
an English keyboard since it lacks the correct Hungarian symbol.
I do not agree with the above explanation. I lived until my 27 year in Hungary and about 45
years in the German speaking part of Switzerland, so even if I am not perfect in any of the
languages but I have some quite reliable dictionaries.
The sign which changes some vowels is e'kezet, the Orszagh Laszlo "Magyar-Angol Szotar
(1433 pages) gives the following explanation:
e'kezet accent (in writing); hajlott ~ circumflex; e'les ~acute accent; ~eket felrakja mark
the accents, (GB) dot the i-s.

Halasz Elod "Magyar-Nemet keziszotar" (Hungarian-German)
e'kezet der Akzent, ~tel ellat mit Akzent(zeichen) versehen.

Umlaut is left out in the Hungarian-English dictionary by Orszagh, in the English-Hungarian
dictionary it sounds quite complicated;
Umlaut (nyelv) regressziv reszleges hasonulas Umlaut
Not all e'kezet is Umlaut.

Webster Handy College Dictionary gives the following explanation:
Umlaut (Ger.) modification of a vowel sound, or the diacritical mark (") as in a", o", u",
in transliteration indicated by e following the vowel.

Additional consonants are: cs, dz,dzs,gy,ly,ny,sz,ty, and zs.
dz, dzs is not part of the Hungarian alphabet

a, a', b, c, cs, d, e, e', f, g, gy, h, i, i', j, k, l, ly, m, n, ny, o, o', o:, o", p, r,
s, sz, t, ty, u, u', u:, u", v, (w), x, y, z, zs

I hope I didn't forgot any.

You really can't think of the different letters as being one letter with
different diacritical "marks"; if you leave off the "marks", it's not the
same word anymore (i.e. baj= trouble, but baj=charm).

As for the "c" v.s. "cz" issue (Like Ferenc v.s. Ferencz), my understanding
is that the more common modern spelling (starting maybe around the turn of
the century) is the "c" and not the older form "cz".

As to the best way to represent all this for a mainly an English-speaking
list, I don't really know., I can see how the letters could be confusing to
English-speakers, but it's probably confusing for Hungarians to see their
surnames and place names spelled incorrectly, too.

Beth Long
The place my mother was born, spelled in older time as Czecze, today as Cece. Sugar,
Hungarian it was spelled as czukor (like the well known film producer) novadays like cukor.

I hope that I didn't added to much to the confusion.

Best regards
Gabor Hirsch


mod.-unless there is something unique to add to this thread, we should wind it down.LS


Hungary SIG #Hungary Re: Letters of the Hungarian alphabet #hungary

Gabor Hirsch <hirsch@...>
 

David and BethLong schrieb:

Since no Hungarians have responded to this question so far, I'll tell you
what I know:

There are no "accents" or "umlauts" in Hungarian: each of the following
vowels: o, o, o, o  is a separate letter (each with its own unique and
consistant pronunciation). Likewise, there are both a and a, e and e, i and
i, u, u, and u. The "long" vowels are usually written either "o" or "o" on
an English keyboard since it lacks the correct Hungarian symbol.
I do not agree with the above explanation. I lived until my 27 year in Hungary and about 45
years in the German speaking part of Switzerland, so even if I am not perfect in any of the
languages but I have some quite reliable dictionaries.
The sign which changes some vowels is e'kezet, the Orszagh Laszlo "Magyar-Angol Szotar
(1433 pages) gives the following explanation:
e'kezet accent (in writing); hajlott ~ circumflex; e'les ~acute accent; ~eket felrakja mark
the accents, (GB) dot the i-s.

Halasz Elod "Magyar-Nemet keziszotar" (Hungarian-German)
e'kezet der Akzent, ~tel ellat mit Akzent(zeichen) versehen.

Umlaut is left out in the Hungarian-English dictionary by Orszagh, in the English-Hungarian
dictionary it sounds quite complicated;
Umlaut (nyelv) regressziv reszleges hasonulas Umlaut
Not all e'kezet is Umlaut.

Webster Handy College Dictionary gives the following explanation:
Umlaut (Ger.) modification of a vowel sound, or the diacritical mark (") as in a", o", u",
in transliteration indicated by e following the vowel.

Additional consonants are: cs, dz,dzs,gy,ly,ny,sz,ty, and zs.
dz, dzs is not part of the Hungarian alphabet

a, a', b, c, cs, d, e, e', f, g, gy, h, i, i', j, k, l, ly, m, n, ny, o, o', o:, o", p, r,
s, sz, t, ty, u, u', u:, u", v, (w), x, y, z, zs

I hope I didn't forgot any.

You really can't think of the different letters as being one letter with
different diacritical "marks"; if you leave off the "marks", it's not the
same word anymore (i.e. baj= trouble, but baj=charm).

As for the "c" v.s. "cz" issue (Like Ferenc v.s. Ferencz), my understanding
is that the more common modern spelling (starting maybe around the turn of
the century) is the "c" and not the older form "cz".

As to the best way to represent all this for a mainly an English-speaking
list, I don't really know., I can see how the letters could be confusing to
English-speakers, but it's probably confusing for Hungarians to see their
surnames and place names spelled incorrectly, too.

Beth Long
The place my mother was born, spelled in older time as Czecze, today as Cece. Sugar,
Hungarian it was spelled as czukor (like the well known film producer) novadays like cukor.

I hope that I didn't added to much to the confusion.

Best regards
Gabor Hirsch


mod.-unless there is something unique to add to this thread, we should wind it down.LS


JRI Poland #Poland Re: jri-pl digest: January 30, 2001 #poland

Adam Druks <druksad@...>
 

Well - DZIAD is greandfather,old man,beggar too.
dziaDEK - is a diminutive form -
Adam Druks
Fbussgang@... wrote:

In a message dated 1/31/01 1:20:33 AM, jri-pl@... writes:

<< DZIADEK is fairly unusual >>

Are you aware that "dziadek" means grandfather in Polish?

Fay Bussgang
Lexington, MA


Re: jri-pl digest: January 30, 2001 #poland

Adam Druks <druksad@...>
 

Well - DZIAD is greandfather,old man,beggar too.
dziaDEK - is a diminutive form -
Adam Druks
Fbussgang@... wrote:

In a message dated 1/31/01 1:20:33 AM, jri-pl@... writes:

<< DZIADEK is fairly unusual >>

Are you aware that "dziadek" means grandfather in Polish?

Fay Bussgang
Lexington, MA