Let's never argue, Amen!

David Goldman <davic@...> wrote:

were most marriages among Jews arranged ones?

Where? The expert on Russian families is Chaeran Freeze.
She reports that in the middle of the 19th century, most marriages
were arranged, and the average age is 19 for men, 18.5 for women.
As the century wears on, the average age rises, especially in large
cities, and the percentage of arranged marriages falls.

the more common agency: matchmakers, rabbis, or parents

Not rabbis. Parents could save some money if they could
do it themselves, but professional matchmakers were often used,
and I have heard anecdotes about cousins receiving the match-
makers' fees when they arranged the match.

what, if any, choices did the matched individuals have?

An anecdote >from Galicia, mid-1870s. It was arranged that
the couple could see each other. Each would be taken shopping
by a parent at a pre-arranged time to a pre-arranged shop. They
were warned not to speak to each other. Either could have called
off the match if the viewing was not satisfactory. At least in theory.
But by then the parents had already settled the financial aspects
of the match. So I do not know how realistic this "right" was.

Bert

Let's never argue, Amen!

David Goldman <davic@...> wrote:

were most marriages among Jews arranged ones?

Where? The expert on Russian families is Chaeran Freeze.
She reports that in the middle of the 19th century, most marriages
were arranged, and the average age is 19 for men, 18.5 for women.
As the century wears on, the average age rises, especially in large
cities, and the percentage of arranged marriages falls.

the more common agency: matchmakers, rabbis, or parents

Not rabbis. Parents could save some money if they could
do it themselves, but professional matchmakers were often used,
and I have heard anecdotes about cousins receiving the match-
makers' fees when they arranged the match.

what, if any, choices did the matched individuals have?

An anecdote >from Galicia, mid-1870s. It was arranged that
the couple could see each other. Each would be taken shopping
by a parent at a pre-arranged time to a pre-arranged shop. They
were warned not to speak to each other. Either could have called
off the match if the viewing was not satisfactory. At least in theory.
But by then the parents had already settled the financial aspects
of the match. So I do not know how realistic this "right" was.

Bert

Dear List,
I recently posted an inquiry re: Schulein. Thanks to tips and help from
several of you, I have connected with my "lost" Schulein Tribe. What a
group !

Many Thanks, Dee Dee Ross

Dear List,
I recently posted an inquiry re: Schulein. Thanks to tips and help from
several of you, I have connected with my "lost" Schulein Tribe. What a
group !

Many Thanks, Dee Dee Ross

Samuel is Shmuel (Hebrew). In East European records, you could expect to
see Yiddish versions, such as: Shmerel, Shmelke, Shmulka etc. (However,
keep in mind that "Samuel" could have been written for any name starting
with "s", "z" or "sh" such as Simcha, Szimon/Shimon, Zalman, Shmarya etc.).
Esther is Hebrew, Yiddish and English. Yiddish versions include Esterel but
don't rule out Etta, Ettel. Also if they had middle names they may have
used them exclusively or together in documents. Don't be put off. You are
not alone. Everyone has this same problem.
Avrohom Krauss
Telz-Stone Israel

Samuel is Shmuel (Hebrew). In East European records, you could expect to
see Yiddish versions, such as: Shmerel, Shmelke, Shmulka etc. (However,
keep in mind that "Samuel" could have been written for any name starting
with "s", "z" or "sh" such as Simcha, Szimon/Shimon, Zalman, Shmarya etc.).
Esther is Hebrew, Yiddish and English. Yiddish versions include Esterel but
don't rule out Etta, Ettel. Also if they had middle names they may have
used them exclusively or together in documents. Don't be put off. You are
not alone. Everyone has this same problem.
Avrohom Krauss
Telz-Stone Israel

From: "Herb Meyers" <herbiem@...>

My father used the name Samuel in this country, but in Eastern Europe he
was known as Shmiel.

The pronunciation "Shmiel" as opposed to "Shmuel" can indicate the part
Eastern Europe he came. This is because that although most Ashkenazi
communities pronounce the the vav-shuruk (="whistled" vav) of the name
(shin,mem,vav,aleph,lamed) as "oo", there are a number of communities,
and they tend to be >from Chasidic roots, who pronounce the vav "ee".

I am afraid I do not know more knowledge on this, but am sure others
on Jewishgen have more detailed information on the parts of Europe that
used this pronunciation, and the communities that still do.

David Ziants
Ma'aleh Adumim, Israel

From: "Herb Meyers" <herbiem@...>

My father used the name Samuel in this country, but in Eastern Europe he
was known as Shmiel.

The pronunciation "Shmiel" as opposed to "Shmuel" can indicate the part
Eastern Europe he came. This is because that although most Ashkenazi
communities pronounce the the vav-shuruk (="whistled" vav) of the name
(shin,mem,vav,aleph,lamed) as "oo", there are a number of communities,
and they tend to be >from Chasidic roots, who pronounce the vav "ee".

I am afraid I do not know more knowledge on this, but am sure others
on Jewishgen have more detailed information on the parts of Europe that
used this pronunciation, and the communities that still do.

David Ziants
Ma'aleh Adumim, Israel

"Samuel" DAMESEK and "Esther" LEVINE. Now before I begin
searching on those names, am I correct that these are not Hebrew and in
Russia would be recorded as something completely different? What?

I have an Esther who was Esther when she was in Europe.

I have a Samuel who is listed as Sholem in passenger records, although
he was known as either Sam or Shulke in the U.S.

Good luck!
Carol Kunkis Cohn
Newport Beach, CA

Searching:
KOSSOI/KOSSOY/KOSOFF - Vetka, Gomel, Chechersk, Zagor'ye, Mogilev, Belarus;
KUNKIS - Glubokoye, Belarus
SCHRIER - Yarmolinits, Kaminets-Podolsk, Ukraine

"Samuel" DAMESEK and "Esther" LEVINE. Now before I begin
searching on those names, am I correct that these are not Hebrew and in
Russia would be recorded as something completely different? What?

I have an Esther who was Esther when she was in Europe.

I have a Samuel who is listed as Sholem in passenger records, although
he was known as either Sam or Shulke in the U.S.

Good luck!
Carol Kunkis Cohn
Newport Beach, CA

Searching:
KOSSOI/KOSSOY/KOSOFF - Vetka, Gomel, Chechersk, Zagor'ye, Mogilev, Belarus;
KUNKIS - Glubokoye, Belarus
SCHRIER - Yarmolinits, Kaminets-Podolsk, Ukraine

This website http://www.calle.com/world/ is a worldwide directory of
cities and towns, sorted by country and linked to a map for each town.
(Presentation Copyright 1998-2000 Carl Rosenberg).

Marlene Staggs
Bellingham, WA

This website http://www.calle.com/world/ is a worldwide directory of
cities and towns, sorted by country and linked to a map for each town.
(Presentation Copyright 1998-2000 Carl Rosenberg).

Marlene Staggs
Bellingham, WA

My only experience is Surrogate Court is in Kings County and the
information I have obtained has been beyond my wildest dreams in terms of
information about relatives names, locations, property, etc.

The least expensive (and perhaps only) way to obtain such records is to
appear in person - there are several subway stops nearby. There are many
rows of file cabinets arranged alphabetically by last name and then first.
Most of the file cards will tell you the date of death so you can hone in
on the correct search subject. The card also has a case number on it.
Copy this case number down and hand it to the clerk to retrieve the file.
Retrieval is not more than a few minutes at most. Really old files might
require an escort into the subbasement which is what you might expect, a
dusty room with dusty files floor to ceiling as far as the eye can see.
Down here you might find a few employees hanging out.

Back upstairs, the files can be viewed and photocopied. Take several
armloads of dimes if you plan on making copies and do not expect too much
in the way of quality reproductions. Be prepared for a wait at the copiers.
I should point out one thing I have never quite understood. On my two
visits there I have been told I can only request three files per day - a
rule only a bureaucrat could have dreamed up. This rule has been waived
for me on both occasions because I had come a great distance for this
searching. I would love to know who to appeal this rule to and/or get
special waivers, but I am afraid I am a little person up against the
entire weight of the Kings County Surrogate Court.

Good luck.

Eric J. Ellman
N. Bethesda, MD

My only experience is Surrogate Court is in Kings County and the
information I have obtained has been beyond my wildest dreams in terms of
information about relatives names, locations, property, etc.

The least expensive (and perhaps only) way to obtain such records is to
appear in person - there are several subway stops nearby. There are many
rows of file cabinets arranged alphabetically by last name and then first.
Most of the file cards will tell you the date of death so you can hone in
on the correct search subject. The card also has a case number on it.
Copy this case number down and hand it to the clerk to retrieve the file.
Retrieval is not more than a few minutes at most. Really old files might
require an escort into the subbasement which is what you might expect, a
dusty room with dusty files floor to ceiling as far as the eye can see.
Down here you might find a few employees hanging out.

Back upstairs, the files can be viewed and photocopied. Take several
armloads of dimes if you plan on making copies and do not expect too much
in the way of quality reproductions. Be prepared for a wait at the copiers.
I should point out one thing I have never quite understood. On my two
visits there I have been told I can only request three files per day - a
rule only a bureaucrat could have dreamed up. This rule has been waived
for me on both occasions because I had come a great distance for this
searching. I would love to know who to appeal this rule to and/or get
special waivers, but I am afraid I am a little person up against the
entire weight of the Kings County Surrogate Court.

Good luck.

Eric J. Ellman
N. Bethesda, MD

I need help. For three years, I have unsuccessfully looked for Harvey
Ross - son of Lucille Schwartz Ross. Lucille was my grandfather's half
sister and I am hoping that Harvey (if alive) may have information and
pictures on my family history. If he is alive, he would probably be in
his 70's.

Harvey's mother Lucille was born in Minneapolis, Minnesota on January 11
1902. She lived in Minneapolis until the age of approximately 26 when she
moved to Chicago.

In the 1920 Federal Census, at the age of 17, Lucille Schwartz is found
living as a Boarder on 215 Nelson Street in St. Paul, MN. Refer to Volume
67, Enumeration District 90, Sheet 19, Line 79. The soundex code for
Schwartz is S632.

Sometime after 1920, Lucille married (place unknown) a Mr. Ross (first name
unknown) and gave birth to Harvey. Later, (year and place unknown) she
divorced Mr. Ross.

Lucille applied for Social Security at Age 35 in 1937. She applied just as
Social Security first came into being. I have her social security
application but it does not help in the search for Harvey.

Lucille, at some point, moved to Santa Monica, California. Her address
there in August of 1989 was at:
[Address Deleted - Mod.]
Santa Monica, CA 90405

She died on August 23rd, 1989 as an inpatient at Santa Monica Hospital
located at 1260 15th Street in Santa Monica. Her cause of death was from
a heart attack due to a gastrointestinal Hemmorage. She also had chronic
lung disease. The attending physician was Dr. Allen H. Weiss, [Address
Deleted - Mod.]. Her son Harvey Ross was the informant and was listed on
her death certificate at the address of:
[Address Deleted - Mod.]
Carlsbad, CA 92008

The above address is an office building but Harvey Ross is no longer there.

Lucille is buried at Hillside Memorial Park Cemetery in Los Angeles, CA, at
Mount of Olives, Block9, plot 326, space5. Tel: 310-641-0707 (toll free -
800-576-1994). Hillside also was the mortuary that managed the funeral.
There was an obituary but it does not help in the search for Harvey. The
officiator at the funeral was Rabbi Jerry Cutler. I spoke to him and he
was not able to provide any information that was helpful in the search
for Harvey. He did not remember.

I have contacted almost every Harvey Ross in California by phone and none
have been the correct one.

Can anyone out there help?? Does anyone have any ideas on how I might
track down the illusive Harvey Ross? Any advice would be greatly
appreciated.

Thanks.
Rich Sinykin
crumper10@...

MODERATOR NOTE: Some addresses were deleted due to Privacy concerns.

I need help. For three years, I have unsuccessfully looked for Harvey
Ross - son of Lucille Schwartz Ross. Lucille was my grandfather's half
sister and I am hoping that Harvey (if alive) may have information and
pictures on my family history. If he is alive, he would probably be in
his 70's.

Harvey's mother Lucille was born in Minneapolis, Minnesota on January 11
1902. She lived in Minneapolis until the age of approximately 26 when she
moved to Chicago.

In the 1920 Federal Census, at the age of 17, Lucille Schwartz is found
living as a Boarder on 215 Nelson Street in St. Paul, MN. Refer to Volume
67, Enumeration District 90, Sheet 19, Line 79. The soundex code for
Schwartz is S632.

Sometime after 1920, Lucille married (place unknown) a Mr. Ross (first name
unknown) and gave birth to Harvey. Later, (year and place unknown) she
divorced Mr. Ross.

Lucille applied for Social Security at Age 35 in 1937. She applied just as
Social Security first came into being. I have her social security
application but it does not help in the search for Harvey.

Lucille, at some point, moved to Santa Monica, California. Her address
there in August of 1989 was at:
[Address Deleted - Mod.]
Santa Monica, CA 90405

She died on August 23rd, 1989 as an inpatient at Santa Monica Hospital
located at 1260 15th Street in Santa Monica. Her cause of death was from
a heart attack due to a gastrointestinal Hemmorage. She also had chronic
lung disease. The attending physician was Dr. Allen H. Weiss, [Address
Deleted - Mod.]. Her son Harvey Ross was the informant and was listed on
her death certificate at the address of:
[Address Deleted - Mod.]
Carlsbad, CA 92008

The above address is an office building but Harvey Ross is no longer there.

Lucille is buried at Hillside Memorial Park Cemetery in Los Angeles, CA, at
Mount of Olives, Block9, plot 326, space5. Tel: 310-641-0707 (toll free -
800-576-1994). Hillside also was the mortuary that managed the funeral.
There was an obituary but it does not help in the search for Harvey. The
officiator at the funeral was Rabbi Jerry Cutler. I spoke to him and he
was not able to provide any information that was helpful in the search
for Harvey. He did not remember.

I have contacted almost every Harvey Ross in California by phone and none
have been the correct one.

Can anyone out there help?? Does anyone have any ideas on how I might
track down the illusive Harvey Ross? Any advice would be greatly
appreciated.

Thanks.
Rich Sinykin
crumper10@...

MODERATOR NOTE: Some addresses were deleted due to Privacy concerns.

In the process of searching for my ENGLENDER family in and around
Czestochowa, I have been using a map that I got in Poland last year.
I have made a scan of part of this map.

On my web site, you will find the part of the map that includes
Czestochowa, Radomsko, Bedzin, and cities nearby:

http://userpages.wittenberg.edu/dkazez/maps/Poland.jpg

In addition, I have made a larger map--too large to include on my
server. It begins just south of Lodz, and extends west to
Czestochowa, south to Krakow, and east to Kielce. I offer, to
anyone who wishes it, any of the following 4 files (I will send as an
attachment to an e-mail message):

choice 1: jpg format, large file, 672 K, good quality
choice 2: jpg format, giant file, 1100 K, excellent quality
choice 3: jpg format, mega file, 4000 K, wonderful quality

choice 4: tif format, huge file!, 6100 K, ready to publish!

Dan

P.S. This map is not copyrighted.

Daniel Kazez <dkazez@...>
Professor of Music / Wittenberg University / Springfield, Ohio USA
Poland: TALMAN, ENGLANDER, JURKIEWICZ, STRAUSBERG/SZTRASBERG, CZAPNIK
Ukraine: OBERMAN, LISS Turkey: KAZEZ, FRESKO, ALHADEF
http://userpages.wittenberg.edu/dkazez/dk/page.html

In the process of searching for my ENGLENDER family in and around
Czestochowa, I have been using a map that I got in Poland last year.
I have made a scan of part of this map.

On my web site, you will find the part of the map that includes
Czestochowa, Radomsko, Bedzin, and cities nearby:

http://userpages.wittenberg.edu/dkazez/maps/Poland.jpg

In addition, I have made a larger map--too large to include on my
server. It begins just south of Lodz, and extends west to
Czestochowa, south to Krakow, and east to Kielce. I offer, to
anyone who wishes it, any of the following 4 files (I will send as an
attachment to an e-mail message):

choice 1: jpg format, large file, 672 K, good quality
choice 2: jpg format, giant file, 1100 K, excellent quality
choice 3: jpg format, mega file, 4000 K, wonderful quality

choice 4: tif format, huge file!, 6100 K, ready to publish!

Dan

P.S. This map is not copyrighted.

Daniel Kazez <dkazez@...>
Professor of Music / Wittenberg University / Springfield, Ohio USA
Poland: TALMAN, ENGLANDER, JURKIEWICZ, STRAUSBERG/SZTRASBERG, CZAPNIK
Ukraine: OBERMAN, LISS Turkey: KAZEZ, FRESKO, ALHADEF
http://userpages.wittenberg.edu/dkazez/dk/page.html