Date   

Pronouncing the A'yin #general

David Ziants <davidz@...>
 

Moshe Hochenberg wrote:
David Ziants wrote:
Although most Ashkenazim were/are unable to pronounce the 'Ayin as a
guttural >from below the throat, the Lithuanians (Litvaks) rather then
leave this letter silent (like an Aleph), pronounced it almost like a
Nun or "N".
Perhaps David could tell us how he believes the A'YIN should
be pronounced,
Firstly, I am surprised that this question falls within the scope of
Jewishgen, but as it was allowed I will give my answer, and hope other
subscribers will be able to present the forum with some additional ideas
for this.

At the end of the day, no one knows what the exact original pronunciations
of the Hebrew letters were, but a number of ideas have been put forward
by scholars.

The Yemenites, unlike other communities, have always made a distinction
of the vocalisation of *all* the Hebrew letters, and for this reason
they are considered to be possessing the most authentic pronunciation.
According to this, their pronunciation of the a'yin would also be the
most original way.

Sephardim (Aidot HaMizrach) also make their a'yin well pronounced, but
the different communities (so I heard) have different nuances.

Ashkenazim fair worst, and especially today in English speaking countries,
there is no (or hardly no) distinction between the aleph and a'yin. The
exception among ashkenazim was the Litvaks, as I stated.

In Jerusalem, men can get a preview of the variety of Hebrew
pronunciations in general, and the scopes of the a'yin in particular,
by visiting the small Shul in the central bus-station, where there are
minyanim (services) one after the other, and in parallel (especially
late afternoon or early evening). For each minyan, there is the person
who happens to lead, who often has his own custom in pronouncing Hebrew
according to his ancestry or the way he was taught.


Moshe Hochenberg continued:
giving us a number of examples in Hebrew, and also in Yiddish?)
I can't give examples in Yiddish, for the simple reason that I don't
know the language. Giving the etymology of the name Yankel, is probably
almost as far as I can go with this language.

For Hebrew examples, the considerations are technical, as I am unable to
send "midi" sound files to Jewishgen, and don't think I would have the
time to produce one, even if I could. No doubt, a search of the WWW
could possibly come up with a sound-track of a Bar-Mitzva boy who can do
an a'yin (exercise for the reader).

I will, though, try and describe the a'yin pronunciation process and will
use the name "Ya'akov" for an example. Please try and not take what I say
here TOO seriously.

a) For Sephardi style:- when you get to the second "a", try putting
your tongue to the back of your throat almost swallowing it
(but please don't!!!), and then let the rest of the "a" come out >from
the stomach - you can now relax for the "kov". Alternatively, have a slice
of raw onion at the back of your mouth when you say this (A method I've
never tried and I don't take responsibility for side effects (cheaky grin).

b) For Litvaks:- Just say Ya'nkoiv while holding your nose.

On a personal note, I grew up in the British United Synagogue cheder system
of the mid 60's to mid 70's, where aleph and a'yin were taught as identical,
and probably the teachers were unaware that the letters are essentially
different. As a result, I never learnt to read Hebrew with the difference,
but in recent years I have been trying, and sometimes succeeding,
in producing an a'yin when I daven (pray).

David Ziants
davidz@...

Ma'aleh Adumim, Israel


MODERATOR NOTE: The original question was allowed because it was
deemed of genealogical value. The pronunciation of a word, when
transliterated into English or another language might change it
enough to make it difficult for a researcher to link it to a known
family name. We hope this thread will not carry us too far afield
from our main topic. Further posts will be included only if their
relevance to genealogy is clear.


JewishGen Discussion Group #JewishGen Pronouncing the A'yin #general

David Ziants <davidz@...>
 

Moshe Hochenberg wrote:
David Ziants wrote:
Although most Ashkenazim were/are unable to pronounce the 'Ayin as a
guttural >from below the throat, the Lithuanians (Litvaks) rather then
leave this letter silent (like an Aleph), pronounced it almost like a
Nun or "N".
Perhaps David could tell us how he believes the A'YIN should
be pronounced,
Firstly, I am surprised that this question falls within the scope of
Jewishgen, but as it was allowed I will give my answer, and hope other
subscribers will be able to present the forum with some additional ideas
for this.

At the end of the day, no one knows what the exact original pronunciations
of the Hebrew letters were, but a number of ideas have been put forward
by scholars.

The Yemenites, unlike other communities, have always made a distinction
of the vocalisation of *all* the Hebrew letters, and for this reason
they are considered to be possessing the most authentic pronunciation.
According to this, their pronunciation of the a'yin would also be the
most original way.

Sephardim (Aidot HaMizrach) also make their a'yin well pronounced, but
the different communities (so I heard) have different nuances.

Ashkenazim fair worst, and especially today in English speaking countries,
there is no (or hardly no) distinction between the aleph and a'yin. The
exception among ashkenazim was the Litvaks, as I stated.

In Jerusalem, men can get a preview of the variety of Hebrew
pronunciations in general, and the scopes of the a'yin in particular,
by visiting the small Shul in the central bus-station, where there are
minyanim (services) one after the other, and in parallel (especially
late afternoon or early evening). For each minyan, there is the person
who happens to lead, who often has his own custom in pronouncing Hebrew
according to his ancestry or the way he was taught.


Moshe Hochenberg continued:
giving us a number of examples in Hebrew, and also in Yiddish?)
I can't give examples in Yiddish, for the simple reason that I don't
know the language. Giving the etymology of the name Yankel, is probably
almost as far as I can go with this language.

For Hebrew examples, the considerations are technical, as I am unable to
send "midi" sound files to Jewishgen, and don't think I would have the
time to produce one, even if I could. No doubt, a search of the WWW
could possibly come up with a sound-track of a Bar-Mitzva boy who can do
an a'yin (exercise for the reader).

I will, though, try and describe the a'yin pronunciation process and will
use the name "Ya'akov" for an example. Please try and not take what I say
here TOO seriously.

a) For Sephardi style:- when you get to the second "a", try putting
your tongue to the back of your throat almost swallowing it
(but please don't!!!), and then let the rest of the "a" come out >from
the stomach - you can now relax for the "kov". Alternatively, have a slice
of raw onion at the back of your mouth when you say this (A method I've
never tried and I don't take responsibility for side effects (cheaky grin).

b) For Litvaks:- Just say Ya'nkoiv while holding your nose.

On a personal note, I grew up in the British United Synagogue cheder system
of the mid 60's to mid 70's, where aleph and a'yin were taught as identical,
and probably the teachers were unaware that the letters are essentially
different. As a result, I never learnt to read Hebrew with the difference,
but in recent years I have been trying, and sometimes succeeding,
in producing an a'yin when I daven (pray).

David Ziants
davidz@...

Ma'aleh Adumim, Israel


MODERATOR NOTE: The original question was allowed because it was
deemed of genealogical value. The pronunciation of a word, when
transliterated into English or another language might change it
enough to make it difficult for a researcher to link it to a known
family name. We hope this thread will not carry us too far afield
from our main topic. Further posts will be included only if their
relevance to genealogy is clear.


re "Otzar Harabonim" #general

Irene Newhouse <newhoir@...>
 

Zubatksy & Berent's "Sourcebook of Jewish Genealogies & Family
Histories" [published by AVOTAYNU & available >from them] indexes
by surname such references & includes libraries that hold them,
though it can't be exhaustive.

There are a couple nice used book search engines on the web,
www.bibliophile.com & www.mxbf.com, but specialized books may be
hard to find.

Irene Newhouse
Kihei HI


JewishGen Discussion Group #JewishGen re "Otzar Harabonim" #general

Irene Newhouse <newhoir@...>
 

Zubatksy & Berent's "Sourcebook of Jewish Genealogies & Family
Histories" [published by AVOTAYNU & available >from them] indexes
by surname such references & includes libraries that hold them,
though it can't be exhaustive.

There are a couple nice used book search engines on the web,
www.bibliophile.com & www.mxbf.com, but specialized books may be
hard to find.

Irene Newhouse
Kihei HI


Elmer as a Jewish Name #general

Robert Meyer <BobEllen@...>
 

I can think of at least two Jewish "Elmers" -- one, Elmer Bernstein
(who I believe designed movie titles -- or composed movie music -- I
associate the name with the film "The Man with the Golden Arm").

The other Jewish "Elmer" is a man named "Elmer Gross", who used to
live in Wilmington, Delaware.

So do not assume that a first name of "Elmer" means someone is not
Jewish.

Ellen S. Meyer
Wilmington, Delaware
bobellen@...

Researching: SHERESHEFSKY >from Augustow, Grodno, Tauragge and Slonim;
THALENFELD, FISCHBEIN >from Kalisch, Galicia (now Ukraine); FEUERMAN, KATZ
from Carpathian mountain area in Slovakia; THOMBACHER >from Augustow;
FINKELSTEIN >from Grodno; KATZENELLENBOGEN >from Belarus.


JewishGen Discussion Group #JewishGen Elmer as a Jewish Name #general

Robert Meyer <BobEllen@...>
 

I can think of at least two Jewish "Elmers" -- one, Elmer Bernstein
(who I believe designed movie titles -- or composed movie music -- I
associate the name with the film "The Man with the Golden Arm").

The other Jewish "Elmer" is a man named "Elmer Gross", who used to
live in Wilmington, Delaware.

So do not assume that a first name of "Elmer" means someone is not
Jewish.

Ellen S. Meyer
Wilmington, Delaware
bobellen@...

Researching: SHERESHEFSKY >from Augustow, Grodno, Tauragge and Slonim;
THALENFELD, FISCHBEIN >from Kalisch, Galicia (now Ukraine); FEUERMAN, KATZ
from Carpathian mountain area in Slovakia; THOMBACHER >from Augustow;
FINKELSTEIN >from Grodno; KATZENELLENBOGEN >from Belarus.


MEERSON in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania #general

Carol Rombro Rider
 

Jewishgenners--If you have lived or are living in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania
here is your opportunity to do a wonderful mitzvah and bring a new Russian
immigrant together with his family!

I am looking for a woman named Bertha STERNIN MEERSON who lived in
Philadelphia sometime around 1935. Her son was Eugene Meerson, and if he is
still living he may be in his 70's. Bertha did have a brother named Boris,
who changed his name >from STERNIN to STERN.

If you know of this familly please contact me as soon as possible. I
have been lucky enough to find extended family of this new American immigrant,
but would really like to find his aunt's family for him!

Best wishes,

Carol Rombro Rider Baltimore, Maryland USA CRomRider@...


Searching: NOAR #lithuania

Scott Noar <sman@...>
 

I am looking for information on the Noar family. They were in Vilnius.

Scott
sman@...


JewishGen Discussion Group #JewishGen MEERSON in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania #general

Carol Rombro Rider
 

Jewishgenners--If you have lived or are living in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania
here is your opportunity to do a wonderful mitzvah and bring a new Russian
immigrant together with his family!

I am looking for a woman named Bertha STERNIN MEERSON who lived in
Philadelphia sometime around 1935. Her son was Eugene Meerson, and if he is
still living he may be in his 70's. Bertha did have a brother named Boris,
who changed his name >from STERNIN to STERN.

If you know of this familly please contact me as soon as possible. I
have been lucky enough to find extended family of this new American immigrant,
but would really like to find his aunt's family for him!

Best wishes,

Carol Rombro Rider Baltimore, Maryland USA CRomRider@...


Lithuania SIG #Lithuania Searching: NOAR #lithuania

Scott Noar <sman@...>
 

I am looking for information on the Noar family. They were in Vilnius.

Scott
sman@...


New Litvak SIG Webpage #lithuania

Howard Margol
 

I have just looked at the new version of the Litvak SIG webpage. It is
fantastic!! Hats off and thanks to Trevor Tucker. Keep up the good work,
Trevor. All good Litvaks should be grateful.

Howard Margol
Atlanta, GA
Researching all Jews who lived in PUSALOTAS (PUSHALOT), LITHUANIA


Searching: TRAUB,KATZ, Utena, Lithiuania #lithuania

HeshieT
 

Frank TRAUB arrived USA 23 Jan 1906 >from England where he learned trade as
tailor. Rebecca KATZ was his mother who also lived in Utena. A brother
Morris TRAUB came to USA a few years later but he came >from Vilkomir, Litunia.
Any information will be very much apprreciated.

Harold W. TRUAB
Boca Raton, FL 33433-3151


Lithuania SIG #Lithuania New Litvak SIG Webpage #lithuania

Howard Margol
 

I have just looked at the new version of the Litvak SIG webpage. It is
fantastic!! Hats off and thanks to Trevor Tucker. Keep up the good work,
Trevor. All good Litvaks should be grateful.

Howard Margol
Atlanta, GA
Researching all Jews who lived in PUSALOTAS (PUSHALOT), LITHUANIA


Lithuania SIG #Lithuania Searching: TRAUB,KATZ, Utena, Lithiuania #lithuania

HeshieT
 

Frank TRAUB arrived USA 23 Jan 1906 >from England where he learned trade as
tailor. Rebecca KATZ was his mother who also lived in Utena. A brother
Morris TRAUB came to USA a few years later but he came >from Vilkomir, Litunia.
Any information will be very much apprreciated.

Harold W. TRUAB
Boca Raton, FL 33433-3151


Searching: TZIMMERMAN and TZAHN (Tomaszow Lubelski, Poland) #general

Sandy Lawrence Edry <sle7@...>
 

I am hoping to find any information about my grandparents' family.

Their names were Sender and Bracha TZIMMERMAN or ZIMMERMAN and
they came >from Tomaszow Lubelski in Poland (about 35km >from Lviv).

They left Poland in 1939 and spent the war in Siberia and in Samarkand,
Uzbekistan before returning to Tomaszow right after the war in 1945. They
arrived in Haifa, Israel in 1951. My grandfather died in 1953.

I know that at least one of his brothers (Tzimmerman) ended up in Paris
-- first name is Peretz, I think -- and one brother may have ended up in
Argentina.

Additionaly, I am look for information about anyone else from
Tomaszow Lubelski, esp. anyone who can tell me about the town before the
war. (I am working on having parts of the Yizkor book translated to
English. If anyone has done some work on this please let me know.)

Sandy Edry
New York, NY

Researching:
TZIMMERMAN/ZIMMERMAN (Tomaszow Lubelski, Poland)
TZAHN (Tomaszow Lubelski, Poland)

mailto: sle7@...


Re: jri-pl digest: November 21, 1998 #poland

Mbresq@...
 

In a message dated 98-11-22 01:15:30 EST, you write:

While extracting an ancestor's birth record >from Ostrow Mazowiecka, his
father's first name is listed as "Exyxm." I have never heard of this name
before. Does this name make sense to anyone or have I misread the
handwriting.

Any ideas are welcome.

Thanks,

Phil Weintraub
Oakland, CA
It doesn't make sense. My guess would be that the name is "Jeruchim", since
"x" is the Russian equivalent of "ch" (I'm assuming this was a Russian
record).

Michael Richman


Zdunska Wola update #poland

Daniel Wagner <Cpwagner@...>
 

I am pleased to announce that the last corrections for Zdunska Wola
have (finally) been Emailed to Hadassah Lipsius. The vital data
should appear on the REIPP database in the near future. Sorry for the
delay, last 6 months have been hectic, both privately and
professionally.

Again, a warm thanks to all the volunteers.

Daniel
______________
H Daniel Wagner
Weizmann Institute of Science
Rehovot 76100, Israel
Tel: +(972) 8 934 2594
Fax: +(972) 8 934 4137
E-mail: cpwagner@...
http://www.weizmann.ac.il/wagner
FREE RON ARAD - http://www.ron-arad.org.il/download.html


JewishGen Discussion Group #JewishGen Searching: TZIMMERMAN and TZAHN (Tomaszow Lubelski, Poland) #general

Sandy Lawrence Edry <sle7@...>
 

I am hoping to find any information about my grandparents' family.

Their names were Sender and Bracha TZIMMERMAN or ZIMMERMAN and
they came >from Tomaszow Lubelski in Poland (about 35km >from Lviv).

They left Poland in 1939 and spent the war in Siberia and in Samarkand,
Uzbekistan before returning to Tomaszow right after the war in 1945. They
arrived in Haifa, Israel in 1951. My grandfather died in 1953.

I know that at least one of his brothers (Tzimmerman) ended up in Paris
-- first name is Peretz, I think -- and one brother may have ended up in
Argentina.

Additionaly, I am look for information about anyone else from
Tomaszow Lubelski, esp. anyone who can tell me about the town before the
war. (I am working on having parts of the Yizkor book translated to
English. If anyone has done some work on this please let me know.)

Sandy Edry
New York, NY

Researching:
TZIMMERMAN/ZIMMERMAN (Tomaszow Lubelski, Poland)
TZAHN (Tomaszow Lubelski, Poland)

mailto: sle7@...


JRI Poland #Poland Re: jri-pl digest: November 21, 1998 #poland

Mbresq@...
 

In a message dated 98-11-22 01:15:30 EST, you write:

While extracting an ancestor's birth record >from Ostrow Mazowiecka, his
father's first name is listed as "Exyxm." I have never heard of this name
before. Does this name make sense to anyone or have I misread the
handwriting.

Any ideas are welcome.

Thanks,

Phil Weintraub
Oakland, CA
It doesn't make sense. My guess would be that the name is "Jeruchim", since
"x" is the Russian equivalent of "ch" (I'm assuming this was a Russian
record).

Michael Richman


JRI Poland #Poland Zdunska Wola update #poland

Daniel Wagner <Cpwagner@...>
 

I am pleased to announce that the last corrections for Zdunska Wola
have (finally) been Emailed to Hadassah Lipsius. The vital data
should appear on the REIPP database in the near future. Sorry for the
delay, last 6 months have been hectic, both privately and
professionally.

Again, a warm thanks to all the volunteers.

Daniel
______________
H Daniel Wagner
Weizmann Institute of Science
Rehovot 76100, Israel
Tel: +(972) 8 934 2594
Fax: +(972) 8 934 4137
E-mail: cpwagner@...
http://www.weizmann.ac.il/wagner
FREE RON ARAD - http://www.ron-arad.org.il/download.html