In a message dated 12/9/98 11:28:33 AM Pacific Standard Time, lgaum@...
writes:

<< I was never comfortabe with it but bowed to the
expertise of others. So uncomfortable infact, that I never thought David
Gorodok was EVER in Mozyr district. >>

Dear Larry!

I'm afraid it is kind of misunderstanding... David Gorodok was in Mozyr Uezd
(look at the great list posted by Vitaly Charny about a week ago) in XIX
century.

I don't remember exactly, but I believe it "moved" to Pinsk district (not
Uezd!) after W.W.II: after 1944 the administrative boundaries were almost
completely renovated in Western Belarus.

Sincerely,
Yuri Shcherbina

In a message dated 12/9/98 11:28:33 AM Pacific Standard Time, lgaum@...
writes:

<< I was never comfortabe with it but bowed to the
expertise of others. So uncomfortable infact, that I never thought David
Gorodok was EVER in Mozyr district. >>

Dear Larry!

I'm afraid it is kind of misunderstanding... David Gorodok was in Mozyr Uezd
(look at the great list posted by Vitaly Charny about a week ago) in XIX
century.

I don't remember exactly, but I believe it "moved" to Pinsk district (not
Uezd!) after W.W.II: after 1944 the administrative boundaries were almost
completely renovated in Western Belarus.

Sincerely,
Yuri Shcherbina

In a message dated 12/9/98 6:13:38 AM, you wrote:

When going through the films of Rajec in
Slovakia I saw a thriving Jewish community with many births and marriages
gradually grow smaller and smaller.

Is Rajec the same place as Ragendorf? And are there records of the time when
Rabbi Yitzchok Frankel who was also know as Yitzchok Schussberg, and later
served as rabbi of Frauenkirchen, was the rabbi there (early 19th century)? He
is said to have been an uncles of Maharam Schuck (Rabbi Moses Schuck from
Brezova and later Yergen/Sankt Georg and Khust). I am curious to know more
about him and his yeshiva.
Many thanks for any help,
A. Marmorstein

I do similar observations. It always strikes me that handwritings change
along time, that it is almost possible to *feel* the aging of a scribe or
to observe the style changes and idiosyncrasies of his writing.

However, I would like to add a practical aspect to Judith's note: Watch for
the change of spelling of your surname along the time. In some cases you
may discover hidden meanings of its origin. Let me illustrate.

Venetianer is a toponymic, in German meaning ">from Venice, Italy". Right?
No, not necessarily.

The earliest (1844) LDS record I found of an ancestors spelled his surname
as WENETZJER. Then it starts changing to WENETZJANER, WENETZIANER, finally
to WENETIANER and VENETIANER. What strike me is the first spelling. It took
me long to figure it out: there is a village in Slovakia called VENECIA.
WENETZJER in German means "somebody >from Venecia". In other words, maybe my
family didn't come >from Italy. Instead it could have originated in the
Tatra mountains, >from a little hamlet called Venecia. All this was deduced

from observing the changes in spelling along the time. Now I am chasing the

validation of this hypothesis.

Fascinating isn't it?

BTW, genealogical research requires much patience, as that of a fisherman
waiting for a bite. The exhilarating experience of finding a match on a LDS
film is very similar to that of catching a fish. Therefor, my
recommendation is: never overlook any source even if the chances of finding
something are meager. As Judith points out, the CJ may not give you a name
but it can deliver other kinds of gratifications and knowledge.

chag Hanukkah sameach to all
Tom

at 09/12/98 - 04:00 -0200, Hungarian SIG digest wrote:

| Subject: RE: LDS Films
| From: "Judith D Bennett" <benne034@...>
| Date: Mon, 7 Dec 1998 22:33:15

| I did not "find" anything in the "CJ" films I could use for my family
| history...but my..the films were fascinating to look at and go through.
I had
| always heard about people not having last names, but it is another thing to
| look at pages of "Mozes Isaac" etc. to realize what it means in record
keeping.
| I found the films well worth my time for the picture and feel of a
different
| era.
| Judith Deutsch Bennett

In a message dated 12/9/98 6:13:38 AM, you wrote:

When going through the films of Rajec in
Slovakia I saw a thriving Jewish community with many births and marriages
gradually grow smaller and smaller.

Is Rajec the same place as Ragendorf? And are there records of the time when
Rabbi Yitzchok Frankel who was also know as Yitzchok Schussberg, and later
served as rabbi of Frauenkirchen, was the rabbi there (early 19th century)? He
is said to have been an uncles of Maharam Schuck (Rabbi Moses Schuck from
Brezova and later Yergen/Sankt Georg and Khust). I am curious to know more
about him and his yeshiva.
Many thanks for any help,
A. Marmorstein

I do similar observations. It always strikes me that handwritings change
along time, that it is almost possible to *feel* the aging of a scribe or
to observe the style changes and idiosyncrasies of his writing.

However, I would like to add a practical aspect to Judith's note: Watch for
the change of spelling of your surname along the time. In some cases you
may discover hidden meanings of its origin. Let me illustrate.

Venetianer is a toponymic, in German meaning ">from Venice, Italy". Right?
No, not necessarily.

The earliest (1844) LDS record I found of an ancestors spelled his surname
as WENETZJER. Then it starts changing to WENETZJANER, WENETZIANER, finally
to WENETIANER and VENETIANER. What strike me is the first spelling. It took
me long to figure it out: there is a village in Slovakia called VENECIA.
WENETZJER in German means "somebody >from Venecia". In other words, maybe my
family didn't come >from Italy. Instead it could have originated in the
Tatra mountains, >from a little hamlet called Venecia. All this was deduced

from observing the changes in spelling along the time. Now I am chasing the

validation of this hypothesis.

Fascinating isn't it?

BTW, genealogical research requires much patience, as that of a fisherman
waiting for a bite. The exhilarating experience of finding a match on a LDS
film is very similar to that of catching a fish. Therefor, my
recommendation is: never overlook any source even if the chances of finding
something are meager. As Judith points out, the CJ may not give you a name
but it can deliver other kinds of gratifications and knowledge.

chag Hanukkah sameach to all
Tom

at 09/12/98 - 04:00 -0200, Hungarian SIG digest wrote:

| Subject: RE: LDS Films
| From: "Judith D Bennett" <benne034@...>
| Date: Mon, 7 Dec 1998 22:33:15

| I did not "find" anything in the "CJ" films I could use for my family
| history...but my..the films were fascinating to look at and go through.
I had
| always heard about people not having last names, but it is another thing to
| look at pages of "Mozes Isaac" etc. to realize what it means in record
keeping.
| I found the films well worth my time for the picture and feel of a
different
| era.
| Judith Deutsch Bennett

To add to Judith Bennett's comments about how to enrich your knowledge
about how your ancestors might have lived before 1828, you can get a very=

good idea of the RANGE of occupations and wealth (in animals or bits of
land), of the causes of death, and of the size of families for your villa=
ge
by skimming through the several pages per locale in these 18th century
films.

Re: genealogical leads: You can get some leads as to where your ancestor=
s
lived before coming to Hungarian lands, since the origins for male and
widowed taxpayers is given for 1770, 1753, and 1725. Also, a good number=

of the male and widowed taxpayers, and Rabbis, had permanent, hereditary
surnames if they lived in some of the larger cities (such as Eisenstadt/K=
is
Marton) or in some of the Slovak locales.

Clearly, the 54-year gap between 1774 and 1828 prevents you >from tracing =
an
individual family unless you have a family with a permanent surname. The=

solution is to find the lists of name changes, done usually between 1780
and 1800). Almost none of these lists are available in the Hungarian
archives. They may still be in the private archives of the princes or
lords who owned the land where the Jews lived. For my own research, I ca=
n
tell you that the Esterhazy princes' archives at Forchenstein (near
Mattersburg, Burgenland) are open only on Thursdays, 8-12 noon. These
archives are not thoroughly catalogued, so one does not always know what =
is
in them. I have hope, though, that eventually these name change lists wi=
ll
surface, and if they do, you will be able to use the surnames to trace yo=
ur
family back to these 1725-1774 films (providing they had not migrated to
your village after 1800).

Maureen Tighe-Brown
University of Pittsburgh

=

To add to Judith Bennett's comments about how to enrich your knowledge
about how your ancestors might have lived before 1828, you can get a very=

good idea of the RANGE of occupations and wealth (in animals or bits of
land), of the causes of death, and of the size of families for your villa=
ge
by skimming through the several pages per locale in these 18th century
films.

Re: genealogical leads: You can get some leads as to where your ancestor=
s
lived before coming to Hungarian lands, since the origins for male and
widowed taxpayers is given for 1770, 1753, and 1725. Also, a good number=

of the male and widowed taxpayers, and Rabbis, had permanent, hereditary
surnames if they lived in some of the larger cities (such as Eisenstadt/K=
is
Marton) or in some of the Slovak locales.

Clearly, the 54-year gap between 1774 and 1828 prevents you >from tracing =
an
individual family unless you have a family with a permanent surname. The=

solution is to find the lists of name changes, done usually between 1780
and 1800). Almost none of these lists are available in the Hungarian
archives. They may still be in the private archives of the princes or
lords who owned the land where the Jews lived. For my own research, I ca=
n
tell you that the Esterhazy princes' archives at Forchenstein (near
Mattersburg, Burgenland) are open only on Thursdays, 8-12 noon. These
archives are not thoroughly catalogued, so one does not always know what =
is
in them. I have hope, though, that eventually these name change lists wi=
ll
surface, and if they do, you will be able to use the surnames to trace yo=
ur
family back to these 1725-1774 films (providing they had not migrated to
your village after 1800).

Maureen Tighe-Brown
University of Pittsburgh

=

My grandmother saved papers when she came to this country. And one of them
found by me was some sort of record that my grandfather had been granted a
year waiver >from the military. Needless to say, he got out in that year and
came to the United States. The stamp or official signature was >from David
Gorodok, the only clue that I have to his "hometown." I was later able to
track down quite by accident his half sisters family. We recently had a
reunion, Thanksgiving. I never knew they even existed.

All my uncles, including my father left letters about being directly related
to Rabbi Samuel Mohilewer of Bialystok. It was stated that his son was David
Chaim of David Gorodok. My new cousins the Grenadirs are also >from David
Gorodok. David Chaim had two wives (not at the same time). My cousin Arties
mother was David Chaims second wife. My problem. I cannot seem to find any
information on any Mohilewer/Mogelefsky/Mogelever living in the area. I need
to find information about David Chaim. Israeli sources are telling me that
Rabbi Samuel did not have a son named David Chaim or a grandson named Dov Ber
(Barnett) --- my grandfather. It would seem my grandfather would know his own
grandfather,I do.

Can anyone send me in the right direction? I need information >from David
Gorodok that would give evidence about my grandfathers family. I am a novice,
so far a very lucky one. I even found a relative in Israel w ith one post to
Jewishgen.

Bonnie

Bonnie Mogelever Pollack

My grandmother saved papers when she came to this country. And one of them
found by me was some sort of record that my grandfather had been granted a
year waiver >from the military. Needless to say, he got out in that year and
came to the United States. The stamp or official signature was >from David
Gorodok, the only clue that I have to his "hometown." I was later able to
track down quite by accident his half sisters family. We recently had a
reunion, Thanksgiving. I never knew they even existed.

All my uncles, including my father left letters about being directly related
to Rabbi Samuel Mohilewer of Bialystok. It was stated that his son was David
Chaim of David Gorodok. My new cousins the Grenadirs are also >from David
Gorodok. David Chaim had two wives (not at the same time). My cousin Arties
mother was David Chaims second wife. My problem. I cannot seem to find any
information on any Mohilewer/Mogelefsky/Mogelever living in the area. I need
to find information about David Chaim. Israeli sources are telling me that
Rabbi Samuel did not have a son named David Chaim or a grandson named Dov Ber
(Barnett) --- my grandfather. It would seem my grandfather would know his own
grandfather,I do.

Can anyone send me in the right direction? I need information >from David
Gorodok that would give evidence about my grandfathers family. I am a novice,
so far a very lucky one. I even found a relative in Israel w ith one post to
Jewishgen.

Bonnie

Bonnie Mogelever Pollack

I am trying to trace the Canadian branch of the family of my late father,
surname LURIA, who visited England during the war whilst in the Canadian
services.

Eric Lewis

e.lewis@...

I am trying to trace the Canadian branch of the family of my late father,
surname LURIA, who visited England during the war whilst in the Canadian
services.

Eric Lewis

e.lewis@...

[Moderator: Please forgive town names in caps. That is the way
they print out >from the Shtetl Finder.]

I am attempting to assist a woman who is the daughter of a
Holocaust survivor. She, herself was born in a DP camp.
She is attempting to find out about her mother's experiences
during the war and before the war and has done preliminary
research. Recently, she found a group of letters and documents
which hopefully will be interpreted soon.

For now she would like to locate and identify two towns in
Romania. The first is listed as the place of birth on the
mother's 1914 birth certificate. The second is a name she gave
me (as she remembers hearing it) phonetically. I tried both
in the shtetl finder and I am reasonably certain about the
first but, not being familiar with Romanian shtetlach, am at
a loss to identify the most likely candidate for the second.
Nobody knows for sure if they were located very close to one
another, but I think if the phonics support the closest place
then that would be the logical choice.

The first place (on the birth cert.):
NAGYBANYA (at the top of the seal)
BAIA-MARE (at the bottom of the seal)

Match in Shtetl Finder:
NABYBANA (BAIA MARE) 4701 2335 Romania 253. 7 miles NNW
of Bucherest

The second place (phoneticly) MARTS-SE-LEE

Possible matches according to the Daitch/Mokatoff soundex:

MARASUL (MARASU)4451 2758 V Romania 96.1 miles ENE of Bucharest
MARISEL4639 2308 N Romania 209.8 miles NW of Bucharest
MARISELU 4701 2431 N Romania 194.0 miles NNW of Bucharest
MARISELU (COSTANI) 4639 2308 V Romania 209.8 miles NW of Bucharest
MERISUL (MERISU) 4447 2258 V Romania 155.9 miles W of Bucharest
MERISUL (MERIS) 4439 2530 V Romania 33.1 miles WNW of Bucharest
MIRASLAU 4622 2343 N Romania 176.5 miles NW of Bucharest
MIRISLAU (MIRASLAU) 4622 2343 V Romania 176.5 miles NW of Bucharest
MURASEL (ARADU NOU) 4609 2119 V Romania 260.8 miles WNW of Bucharest
MURESEL 4609 2119 N Romania 260.8 miles WNW of Bucharest

TIA,
Lois Sernoff <JGLois@...>

[Moderator: Please forgive town names in caps. That is the way
they print out >from the Shtetl Finder.]

I am attempting to assist a woman who is the daughter of a
Holocaust survivor. She, herself was born in a DP camp.
She is attempting to find out about her mother's experiences
during the war and before the war and has done preliminary
research. Recently, she found a group of letters and documents
which hopefully will be interpreted soon.

For now she would like to locate and identify two towns in
Romania. The first is listed as the place of birth on the
mother's 1914 birth certificate. The second is a name she gave
me (as she remembers hearing it) phonetically. I tried both
in the shtetl finder and I am reasonably certain about the
first but, not being familiar with Romanian shtetlach, am at
a loss to identify the most likely candidate for the second.
Nobody knows for sure if they were located very close to one
another, but I think if the phonics support the closest place
then that would be the logical choice.

The first place (on the birth cert.):
NAGYBANYA (at the top of the seal)
BAIA-MARE (at the bottom of the seal)

Match in Shtetl Finder:
NABYBANA (BAIA MARE) 4701 2335 Romania 253. 7 miles NNW
of Bucherest

The second place (phoneticly) MARTS-SE-LEE

Possible matches according to the Daitch/Mokatoff soundex:

MARASUL (MARASU)4451 2758 V Romania 96.1 miles ENE of Bucharest
MARISEL4639 2308 N Romania 209.8 miles NW of Bucharest
MARISELU 4701 2431 N Romania 194.0 miles NNW of Bucharest
MARISELU (COSTANI) 4639 2308 V Romania 209.8 miles NW of Bucharest
MERISUL (MERISU) 4447 2258 V Romania 155.9 miles W of Bucharest
MERISUL (MERIS) 4439 2530 V Romania 33.1 miles WNW of Bucharest
MIRASLAU 4622 2343 N Romania 176.5 miles NW of Bucharest
MIRISLAU (MIRASLAU) 4622 2343 V Romania 176.5 miles NW of Bucharest
MURASEL (ARADU NOU) 4609 2119 V Romania 260.8 miles WNW of Bucharest
MURESEL 4609 2119 N Romania 260.8 miles WNW of Bucharest

TIA,
Lois Sernoff <JGLois@...>

I just saw a reference to this in a posting. I'm still kind of new at
this. What is FTJP?

Shari Myers
sharim@...

MODERATOR NOTE: "FTJP" stands for Family Tree of the Jewish People, a
collective effort of JewishGen, the International Association of Jewish
Genealogical Societies (IAJGS), and Beth Hatefutsoth, the Museum of the
Diaspora in Israel. Further information is available online at
<http://www.jewishgen.org/gedcom/jewishgen.html>.

This information is contained in the JewishGen FAQ (Frequently Asked
Questions), available at <http://www.jewishgen.org/infofiles/faq.html> or
by e-mail for those without Web access. For instructions on how to obtain
copies of the FAQ or other InfoFiles by e-mail, send an e-mail to
<index@...>.

We strongly recommend that all readers of the JewishGen Discussion Group
and users of the other resources of JewishGen read the FAQ. Informed
contributors make the Discussion Group a more useful resource, and
knowledge of the information contained in the FAQ will help you in your own
research.

I just saw a reference to this in a posting. I'm still kind of new at
this. What is FTJP?

Shari Myers
sharim@...

MODERATOR NOTE: "FTJP" stands for Family Tree of the Jewish People, a
collective effort of JewishGen, the International Association of Jewish
Genealogical Societies (IAJGS), and Beth Hatefutsoth, the Museum of the
Diaspora in Israel. Further information is available online at
<http://www.jewishgen.org/gedcom/jewishgen.html>.

This information is contained in the JewishGen FAQ (Frequently Asked
Questions), available at <http://www.jewishgen.org/infofiles/faq.html> or
by e-mail for those without Web access. For instructions on how to obtain
copies of the FAQ or other InfoFiles by e-mail, send an e-mail to
<index@...>.

We strongly recommend that all readers of the JewishGen Discussion Group
and users of the other resources of JewishGen read the FAQ. Informed
contributors make the Discussion Group a more useful resource, and
knowledge of the information contained in the FAQ will help you in your own
research.

In reference to the St. Albans lists found at the National Archives in
Wash. D.C., Marshall writes he wishes he had "them out here" .

I have no idea where Martinez CA is, but the Los Angeles FHC on Santa
Monica Blvd has the microfilmed St. Albans lists right there and
practically all films relating to Emigration and Immigration held by the
National Archives can be ordered >from any FHC in the world for around
$3.50 a film for a three week rental.

You can locate a FHC by calling 1-800-346-6044
Most Family History Centers also have a high magnification reader...which
makes the problem Howard cited in reading the 3x5 cards a non-issue.

To all those just getting started our common addiction, you'd do yourself
the greatest favor by reading the JewishGen FAQ which will tell you where
to find what and what you'll find on which records. Another suggestion is
to at least scan the list of the more than 150 valuable InfoFiles on line
or by email to index@... A good hard look at the JewishGen
homepage will also help just to inform yourselves of what we have available
to anyone who is willing to take the time and effort to click on the mouse.
We're at http://www.jewishgen.org and just waiting to help you. <VBG>

Carol Skydell
JewishGen Operations

In reference to the St. Albans lists found at the National Archives in
Wash. D.C., Marshall writes he wishes he had "them out here" .

I have no idea where Martinez CA is, but the Los Angeles FHC on Santa
Monica Blvd has the microfilmed St. Albans lists right there and
practically all films relating to Emigration and Immigration held by the
National Archives can be ordered >from any FHC in the world for around
$3.50 a film for a three week rental.

You can locate a FHC by calling 1-800-346-6044
Most Family History Centers also have a high magnification reader...which
makes the problem Howard cited in reading the 3x5 cards a non-issue.

To all those just getting started our common addiction, you'd do yourself
the greatest favor by reading the JewishGen FAQ which will tell you where
to find what and what you'll find on which records. Another suggestion is
to at least scan the list of the more than 150 valuable InfoFiles on line
or by email to index@... A good hard look at the JewishGen
homepage will also help just to inform yourselves of what we have available
to anyone who is willing to take the time and effort to click on the mouse.
We're at http://www.jewishgen.org and just waiting to help you. <VBG>

Carol Skydell
JewishGen Operations

Mark Halpern wrote:

Could a kind Jewishgenner confirm that Cebrow in 1910 is Tsebrov of today
or offer some alternative theory.

This is a typical example of a town name confusion, when original shtetl
name has been evolved due to the changes of the national borders. Typically
in Eastern Europe, one may encounter the original name in Russian (in
Lithuania, White Russia or Russian Poland) or in German/Polish (Galicia),
than, >from 1918 in Polish or Lithuanian, and again after 1945 in Russian,
and >from last few years in brand new, Ukrainian and Byelarussian. And all
this is on the top of the shtetl's Yiddish nameand interpratation/
transformation of the Cyrillic characters into Latin, which only aads to
the confusion.

In case of Cebrow near Tarnopol. Original Polish hanlet's name Cebro'w (dot
over 'o') [pron. tzeh bruff] has been transformed into Russian/Ukrainian
Cebrov, or phonetically, Tzebrov. And old Polish name of Tarnopol has been
transformed into Ukrainian Ternopil.

Alexander Sharon

Mark Halpern wrote:

Could a kind Jewishgenner confirm that Cebrow in 1910 is Tsebrov of today
or offer some alternative theory.

This is a typical example of a town name confusion, when original shtetl
name has been evolved due to the changes of the national borders. Typically
in Eastern Europe, one may encounter the original name in Russian (in
Lithuania, White Russia or Russian Poland) or in German/Polish (Galicia),
than, >from 1918 in Polish or Lithuanian, and again after 1945 in Russian,
and >from last few years in brand new, Ukrainian and Byelarussian. And all
this is on the top of the shtetl's Yiddish nameand interpratation/
transformation of the Cyrillic characters into Latin, which only aads to
the confusion.

In case of Cebrow near Tarnopol. Original Polish hanlet's name Cebro'w (dot
over 'o') [pron. tzeh bruff] has been transformed into Russian/Ukrainian
Cebrov, or phonetically, Tzebrov. And old Polish name of Tarnopol has been
transformed into Ukrainian Ternopil.

Alexander Sharon