Date   

Re: ship's manifests and the Ellis Island "names myth" #general

Janette <janettes@...>
 

You have only to look at marriage and death records >from the turn of the
century to know that the names of the parents of newlyweds or the deceases
(many of whom never left the shtetl) began appearing as Louis, Lazurus and
Marcus or Sadie, Ruth, Rose or Paulina, instead of Leib, Leiser, Moishe,
and Sera, Ruchel, Rezi, Perel, etc.
Jules [Yehudah] Levin wrote:
Not every new immigrant came >from a Fiddler on the Roof shtetl. By the
end of the 19th Century the larger towns had strong secularizing assimilating
movements, and young Jews were already feeling self-conscious about their
identities. I am convinced that European names were already in use
parallel with their Yiddish names. I am sure of at least two--Julius for
Yehudah (like my grandfather), and Maurice/Mauritz for Moshe (my
greatgrandfather)...
Last summer while I was traveling in Ukraine, and visiting archives in
Zhytomyr, Ternopil and Ivano-Frankivsk, one o fthe things I noted and
found interesting, was that records >from the same periods in these
different places did not ask for the same information. However, there
were some records that asked for the name by which a person was commonly
known as well as for their Yiddish name. In the former I found French,
German, Polish, Russian and English names paired with Yiddish names. So
my uncle (my grandmother's brother, Shmuel) was clearly on the records
noted as Samuel Leon, and another brother, Yehoshua was noted as Oscar.
On the other, hand, my great-grandmother,Tova Gitel was never referred
to in any record I found as Sylvia although one of her grandsons, botn
in the US, who never met her, and his children and grandchildren refer
to her as such! I can only imagine that this grandson's mother,
"Sylvia's" daughter may have renamed her mother here!

Janette Silverman
Phoenix, AZ


JewishGen Discussion Group #JewishGen RE: ship's manifests and the Ellis Island "names myth" #general

Janette <janettes@...>
 

You have only to look at marriage and death records >from the turn of the
century to know that the names of the parents of newlyweds or the deceases
(many of whom never left the shtetl) began appearing as Louis, Lazurus and
Marcus or Sadie, Ruth, Rose or Paulina, instead of Leib, Leiser, Moishe,
and Sera, Ruchel, Rezi, Perel, etc.
Jules [Yehudah] Levin wrote:
Not every new immigrant came >from a Fiddler on the Roof shtetl. By the
end of the 19th Century the larger towns had strong secularizing assimilating
movements, and young Jews were already feeling self-conscious about their
identities. I am convinced that European names were already in use
parallel with their Yiddish names. I am sure of at least two--Julius for
Yehudah (like my grandfather), and Maurice/Mauritz for Moshe (my
greatgrandfather)...
Last summer while I was traveling in Ukraine, and visiting archives in
Zhytomyr, Ternopil and Ivano-Frankivsk, one o fthe things I noted and
found interesting, was that records >from the same periods in these
different places did not ask for the same information. However, there
were some records that asked for the name by which a person was commonly
known as well as for their Yiddish name. In the former I found French,
German, Polish, Russian and English names paired with Yiddish names. So
my uncle (my grandmother's brother, Shmuel) was clearly on the records
noted as Samuel Leon, and another brother, Yehoshua was noted as Oscar.
On the other, hand, my great-grandmother,Tova Gitel was never referred
to in any record I found as Sylvia although one of her grandsons, botn
in the US, who never met her, and his children and grandchildren refer
to her as such! I can only imagine that this grandson's mother,
"Sylvia's" daughter may have renamed her mother here!

Janette Silverman
Phoenix, AZ


Re: Ellis Island name change myth #general

Allen Kurtz
 

I've been following the discussion re: name changes as I've been
traveling with great interest and now that I am home, I thought that
I'd throw my two cents into the discussion. Sometimes I think that we
all tend to complicate the process and underestimate the abilities of
circa early 20th Century businesses to function. Many of the shipping
companies that brought our ancestors here were the multinationals of
their day and were highly efficient. They had processes in place for
handling large numbers of 3rd class passengers. As they were
financially responsible for returning passengers who did not pass
muster at Ellis Island, it was essential that they got the process
correct. Certainly there was an element of chaos involved, but I think
much less than we all sometimes imagine.

Though I could be wrong, it seems to me that the process went
something like this: passengers obtained tickets in one of three ways;
from family in America, purchased at the local (cities and larger
towns) near their homes, or perhaps at the port of embarkation.
Tickets were not for a particular ship, but for a particular steamship
line, particular port, and particular route. I'm sure many of you have
seen examples of such tickets at http://www.gjenvick.com. Once they
had made their way to the port of departure, our ancestors went to the
offices of the steamship line, and were assigned passage on a
particular ship. The ship may have already been in port and they
boarded fairly quickly, or, if a ship was not in port, they would need
to wait for one to arrive.In some places they were forced to wait
until their baggage could be fumigated and they passed a medical
screening. Once assigned to a ship, their names were written onto the
official manifest by employees of the shipping line. If their names
were written on their tickets, perhaps purchased at the local offices
of the line, it was simply copied >from the ticket to the manifest.
Whether the names inscribed on the ticket was written correctly adds a
whole other layer of conversation to the discussion. If their names
were not written on the ticket, the shipping line clerk wrote it as
best he could. Some were certainly better than others at understanding
what the passenger was saying. It was at this point that many a change
may have been made largely dependent on how well (or not) the
passenger and the clerk communicated. I've often felt that a key
factor was the dominant language of the clerk. A French speaking clerk
at Le Havre might interpret names one way, a Dutch speaker from
Rotterdam another, and a German speaker in Hamburg yet another. I
wonder whether anyone has undertaken a study comparing the names of
immigrants >from port to port. This point of contact between immigrant
and shipping line clerk is one of endless mystery and fascination.

When departure day arrived, passengers were checked off on the
manifest prior to boarding. They were certainly given a receipt or
some sort of paper (sort of like a boarding pass) to hold with them.
None of these have survived in my family; if any of you are lucky
enough to have those of your ancestors, I'd love to seen them. I find
it hard to believe that lists were compiled by the purser after
boarding. I think we've all seen manifests with names crossed off, an
indication that for whatever reason, sickness, somehow simply missing
the ship, etc, the passenger did not board. In my wife's family her
GGM was crossed off a manifest, obviously missing her ship, but was
later listed on another manifest two weeks later. That is a clear
indication that manifests were prepared before sailing. When ships
arrived at Ellis Island, the manifests were transfered to immigration
officials and immigrants were matched, in the Registry Room/Great
Hall, to the manifest before either being admitted or held for further
questioning. I think we've all seem photographs of the long lines
winding their way to the desk where the officials examined the
original manifests.

Personally, I don't think that we will ever exhaust this topic.

Allen Kurtz
Mahopac, New York


JewishGen Discussion Group #JewishGen Re: Ellis Island name change myth #general

Allen Kurtz
 

I've been following the discussion re: name changes as I've been
traveling with great interest and now that I am home, I thought that
I'd throw my two cents into the discussion. Sometimes I think that we
all tend to complicate the process and underestimate the abilities of
circa early 20th Century businesses to function. Many of the shipping
companies that brought our ancestors here were the multinationals of
their day and were highly efficient. They had processes in place for
handling large numbers of 3rd class passengers. As they were
financially responsible for returning passengers who did not pass
muster at Ellis Island, it was essential that they got the process
correct. Certainly there was an element of chaos involved, but I think
much less than we all sometimes imagine.

Though I could be wrong, it seems to me that the process went
something like this: passengers obtained tickets in one of three ways;
from family in America, purchased at the local (cities and larger
towns) near their homes, or perhaps at the port of embarkation.
Tickets were not for a particular ship, but for a particular steamship
line, particular port, and particular route. I'm sure many of you have
seen examples of such tickets at http://www.gjenvick.com. Once they
had made their way to the port of departure, our ancestors went to the
offices of the steamship line, and were assigned passage on a
particular ship. The ship may have already been in port and they
boarded fairly quickly, or, if a ship was not in port, they would need
to wait for one to arrive.In some places they were forced to wait
until their baggage could be fumigated and they passed a medical
screening. Once assigned to a ship, their names were written onto the
official manifest by employees of the shipping line. If their names
were written on their tickets, perhaps purchased at the local offices
of the line, it was simply copied >from the ticket to the manifest.
Whether the names inscribed on the ticket was written correctly adds a
whole other layer of conversation to the discussion. If their names
were not written on the ticket, the shipping line clerk wrote it as
best he could. Some were certainly better than others at understanding
what the passenger was saying. It was at this point that many a change
may have been made largely dependent on how well (or not) the
passenger and the clerk communicated. I've often felt that a key
factor was the dominant language of the clerk. A French speaking clerk
at Le Havre might interpret names one way, a Dutch speaker from
Rotterdam another, and a German speaker in Hamburg yet another. I
wonder whether anyone has undertaken a study comparing the names of
immigrants >from port to port. This point of contact between immigrant
and shipping line clerk is one of endless mystery and fascination.

When departure day arrived, passengers were checked off on the
manifest prior to boarding. They were certainly given a receipt or
some sort of paper (sort of like a boarding pass) to hold with them.
None of these have survived in my family; if any of you are lucky
enough to have those of your ancestors, I'd love to seen them. I find
it hard to believe that lists were compiled by the purser after
boarding. I think we've all seen manifests with names crossed off, an
indication that for whatever reason, sickness, somehow simply missing
the ship, etc, the passenger did not board. In my wife's family her
GGM was crossed off a manifest, obviously missing her ship, but was
later listed on another manifest two weeks later. That is a clear
indication that manifests were prepared before sailing. When ships
arrived at Ellis Island, the manifests were transfered to immigration
officials and immigrants were matched, in the Registry Room/Great
Hall, to the manifest before either being admitted or held for further
questioning. I think we've all seem photographs of the long lines
winding their way to the desk where the officials examined the
original manifests.

Personally, I don't think that we will ever exhaust this topic.

Allen Kurtz
Mahopac, New York


Re: Ship's manifests and names myth #general

MERYL RIZZOTTI
 

Names were not changed at Ellis Island. The names were transcribed on the
manifests before the passengers boarded. You may notice some names crossed off
the manifest and/or NOB (not on board) written across them. That means the
passenger did not make the trip. The only spelling differences were >from the
transcriber not being able to understand the name or writing it incorrectly. The
passenger had to have exit documents or boarding passes to get on the ship. Any
name changes that were made were done by the immigrant not the people at the
dock. In some cases, such as my grandfather's, the immigrant did use a name that
was not his so that may be a reason that you can't find it. My grandfather's
name was Chaskel Cymes but he entered NY with the name Chaskel Munach which was
the surname of his best friend. Why, I don't know but his sister used the same
surname a year later. I only found out when I got his Natz. papers and he said
he entered using that name. I also was told, when I visited Ellis Island, that
the immigrant's names were not changed.
Meryl Rizzotti
Researching: CYMES/CIMES, POVLOTSKY, TEPEROWITZ, SLEPAK, SPECTER, BASS/BASOI,
KAHN/COHEN, LEIBOWITZ, KSHEVIN/KRZEWIN


JewishGen Discussion Group #JewishGen Re: Ship's manifests and names myth #general

MERYL RIZZOTTI
 

Names were not changed at Ellis Island. The names were transcribed on the
manifests before the passengers boarded. You may notice some names crossed off
the manifest and/or NOB (not on board) written across them. That means the
passenger did not make the trip. The only spelling differences were >from the
transcriber not being able to understand the name or writing it incorrectly. The
passenger had to have exit documents or boarding passes to get on the ship. Any
name changes that were made were done by the immigrant not the people at the
dock. In some cases, such as my grandfather's, the immigrant did use a name that
was not his so that may be a reason that you can't find it. My grandfather's
name was Chaskel Cymes but he entered NY with the name Chaskel Munach which was
the surname of his best friend. Why, I don't know but his sister used the same
surname a year later. I only found out when I got his Natz. papers and he said
he entered using that name. I also was told, when I visited Ellis Island, that
the immigrant's names were not changed.
Meryl Rizzotti
Researching: CYMES/CIMES, POVLOTSKY, TEPEROWITZ, SLEPAK, SPECTER, BASS/BASOI,
KAHN/COHEN, LEIBOWITZ, KSHEVIN/KRZEWIN


VM 16312 - Yiddish Translation #general

EEllman@...
 

I am in need of a Yiddish translation >from a page in a journal >from 1945
for the United Minkowitz-Podolier Relief journal. This can be found at VM
16312. I am grateful for any assistance anyone can provide. Thanks.

Eric J. Ellman
N. Bethesda, MD

Searching: ELLMAN (Minkovsty, Ukraine), ROSENBERG (Lomza, Nowogrod,
Poland), KOTZEN (Riga, Latvia), KREIGER (Riga; and Kedainiai, Lithuania), FAGIN
(Dvinsk, Latvia), COIRA, (Minkovsty, Ukr.), MAIDMAN (Minkovsty, Ukr),
GREENBERG (Rzeszów, Galacia), WYSZYNSKI (Mlawa, Poland), COHEN (London), STORCH
(Rzeszów, Galacia), STERN (Narajow, Galacia)

MODERATOR NOTE: The URL of the image is
http://www.jewishgen.org/viewmate/responselist.asp?key=16312
Please reply privately or on the ViewMate response form.


JewishGen Discussion Group #JewishGen VM 16312 - Yiddish Translation #general

EEllman@...
 

I am in need of a Yiddish translation >from a page in a journal >from 1945
for the United Minkowitz-Podolier Relief journal. This can be found at VM
16312. I am grateful for any assistance anyone can provide. Thanks.

Eric J. Ellman
N. Bethesda, MD

Searching: ELLMAN (Minkovsty, Ukraine), ROSENBERG (Lomza, Nowogrod,
Poland), KOTZEN (Riga, Latvia), KREIGER (Riga; and Kedainiai, Lithuania), FAGIN
(Dvinsk, Latvia), COIRA, (Minkovsty, Ukr.), MAIDMAN (Minkovsty, Ukr),
GREENBERG (Rzeszów, Galacia), WYSZYNSKI (Mlawa, Poland), COHEN (London), STORCH
(Rzeszów, Galacia), STERN (Narajow, Galacia)

MODERATOR NOTE: The URL of the image is
http://www.jewishgen.org/viewmate/responselist.asp?key=16312
Please reply privately or on the ViewMate response form.


ViewMate Request for translation of Hebrew on 2 grave markers #general

blrrcn@...
 

Hello,I have 2 postings on Viewmate.I would appreciate a translation
of the Hebrew inscriptions for the grave markers of my Great Grandparents.
Number 16303
http://www.jewishgen.org/viewmate/viewmateview.asp?key=16303
Number 16302
http://www.jewishgen.org/viewmate/viewmateview.asp?key=16302
Thank you for your help,Brian Lehman

MODERATOR NOTE: Please reply privately or on the ViewMate response form.


JewishGen Discussion Group #JewishGen ViewMate Request for translation of Hebrew on 2 grave markers #general

blrrcn@...
 

Hello,I have 2 postings on Viewmate.I would appreciate a translation
of the Hebrew inscriptions for the grave markers of my Great Grandparents.
Number 16303
http://www.jewishgen.org/viewmate/viewmateview.asp?key=16303
Number 16302
http://www.jewishgen.org/viewmate/viewmateview.asp?key=16302
Thank you for your help,Brian Lehman

MODERATOR NOTE: Please reply privately or on the ViewMate response form.


Translation Help- Hebrew/Yiddish to English #general

JJJDalli@...
 

Hello there! Thank you so much for the responses to my Theodore Francis
Weiss question.

Please look at the link for my viewmate file.
It is writing >from the back of a picture of my great great grandmother.
It is Hebrew but it might possible be Yiddish.
I know it is a little difficult to read as it has faded over time.

http://www.jewishgen.org/viewmate/viewmateview.asp?key=16301

Thank you in advance for your help.

Julie Dalli
Schwartz/Weiss/Farkas- Ungvar, Hungary
Bregman/Pain/Pine- David Gorodok

MODERATOR NOTE: Please reply privately or on the ViewMate response form.


JewishGen Discussion Group #JewishGen Translation Help- Hebrew/Yiddish to English #general

JJJDalli@...
 

Hello there! Thank you so much for the responses to my Theodore Francis
Weiss question.

Please look at the link for my viewmate file.
It is writing >from the back of a picture of my great great grandmother.
It is Hebrew but it might possible be Yiddish.
I know it is a little difficult to read as it has faded over time.

http://www.jewishgen.org/viewmate/viewmateview.asp?key=16301

Thank you in advance for your help.

Julie Dalli
Schwartz/Weiss/Farkas- Ungvar, Hungary
Bregman/Pain/Pine- David Gorodok

MODERATOR NOTE: Please reply privately or on the ViewMate response form.


WEISBERG/WISE #general

Ann Linder
 

Is anyone familiar with Nathan WEISBERG aka Nathan WISE?
He married Esther H. Kinsler 1936 in England, and I believe they lived
in London.
Esther is perhaps a daughter of Brucha Kinsler for whom I've been
searching for ages now.
I know nothing of WEISBERG, only of Kinsler.
I have found a record of a daughter born of WISE and Kinsler, named
Valerie, born 1938. There the track grows cold.
A search on Bing brings some hits on this name; I have emailed several
Valerie Wise profiles on Facebook, and I have also posted on the
British SIG.

--
Kindest Regards,
Ann Linder
Florida USA


Jewish Cemetery in Marburg, Germany? #general

Ann Linder
 

I found reference to one Jewish cemetery in Marburg, Germany but
didn't understand its location. Is there just one Jewish cemetery?
I have a photo of a postWWII 1949 gravestone but I don't know the
location of the cemetery in Marburg.

--
Kindest Regards,
Ann Linder
Florida USA


JewishGen Discussion Group #JewishGen WEISBERG/WISE #general

Ann Linder
 

Is anyone familiar with Nathan WEISBERG aka Nathan WISE?
He married Esther H. Kinsler 1936 in England, and I believe they lived
in London.
Esther is perhaps a daughter of Brucha Kinsler for whom I've been
searching for ages now.
I know nothing of WEISBERG, only of Kinsler.
I have found a record of a daughter born of WISE and Kinsler, named
Valerie, born 1938. There the track grows cold.
A search on Bing brings some hits on this name; I have emailed several
Valerie Wise profiles on Facebook, and I have also posted on the
British SIG.

--
Kindest Regards,
Ann Linder
Florida USA


JewishGen Discussion Group #JewishGen Jewish Cemetery in Marburg, Germany? #general

Ann Linder
 

I found reference to one Jewish cemetery in Marburg, Germany but
didn't understand its location. Is there just one Jewish cemetery?
I have a photo of a postWWII 1949 gravestone but I don't know the
location of the cemetery in Marburg.

--
Kindest Regards,
Ann Linder
Florida USA


lost message from ???David ???GOODMAN #general

abe rosenthal
 

Several months ago someone wrote to me on behalf of his grandfather
and state thaat he wanted to talk to me. He obviously was interested
in my family members who came >from the Ukraine asrea of the then
Russia. I lost the message when I called it up very laste becausr ZI
was out of town for a long time.I am guessing but I think his name
was David And possibly Goodman. I have been trying to contact him but
have been unable and therefore I am now trying to answeer him by
writing in hopes this forumn will be effective in communicately to him.
Abe Rosenthal Jewish Gen research, whose family on my mothers side
emigrated >from Brailov, Zherinka and Novyy Konnstantinov, in the
area now part of the Ukraine and formerly part of Russia.
aberosenthal7@hotmail.com


FRYDMAN of Korycin & MARSHALL of Bayonne #general

Ann Linder
 

from the Ellis Island dB I have extracted the following: please
contact me if these names are familiar.
S Zeeland left Antwerp Sep 29, 1921, Arrived NY Oct 9, 1921. Admitted to USA:
Line 0013: Syma FRYDMAN (Female), age 22, single
Line 0014: Chana FRYDMAN, age 20 DOB 2/21/1890, single
Line 0015: Samuel FRYDMAN, age 15, single
Chana & Samuel are sister and brother
Parents of the above but not traveling w/them: Ch. FRYDMAN
All of the above >from Korycin
Going to join a sister: I. MARSHALL, Bayonne NJ, 431 Broadway

--
Kindest Regards,
Ann Linder
Florida USA


JewishGen Discussion Group #JewishGen lost message from ???David ???GOODMAN #general

abe rosenthal
 

Several months ago someone wrote to me on behalf of his grandfather
and state thaat he wanted to talk to me. He obviously was interested
in my family members who came >from the Ukraine asrea of the then
Russia. I lost the message when I called it up very laste becausr ZI
was out of town for a long time.I am guessing but I think his name
was David And possibly Goodman. I have been trying to contact him but
have been unable and therefore I am now trying to answeer him by
writing in hopes this forumn will be effective in communicately to him.
Abe Rosenthal Jewish Gen research, whose family on my mothers side
emigrated >from Brailov, Zherinka and Novyy Konnstantinov, in the
area now part of the Ukraine and formerly part of Russia.
aberosenthal7@hotmail.com


JewishGen Discussion Group #JewishGen FRYDMAN of Korycin & MARSHALL of Bayonne #general

Ann Linder
 

from the Ellis Island dB I have extracted the following: please
contact me if these names are familiar.
S Zeeland left Antwerp Sep 29, 1921, Arrived NY Oct 9, 1921. Admitted to USA:
Line 0013: Syma FRYDMAN (Female), age 22, single
Line 0014: Chana FRYDMAN, age 20 DOB 2/21/1890, single
Line 0015: Samuel FRYDMAN, age 15, single
Chana & Samuel are sister and brother
Parents of the above but not traveling w/them: Ch. FRYDMAN
All of the above >from Korycin
Going to join a sister: I. MARSHALL, Bayonne NJ, 431 Broadway

--
Kindest Regards,
Ann Linder
Florida USA