Date   

US Immigration Procedures #general

Joseph Fibel <jfibel@...>
 

Genners

An excellent (but small) book on U S immigration procedures is called
"They Came In Ships", by John P. Colletta.

He seems to have rewritten it recently, as I saw a copy at the Avotaynu
table in the vendor room at the Chicago conference and it has a new cover.
A lot of these questions will be answered in this book. It is available
at the usual suspect book stores as well as Avotaynu.

Joe Fibel


JewishGen Discussion Group #JewishGen US Immigration Procedures #general

Joseph Fibel <jfibel@...>
 

Genners

An excellent (but small) book on U S immigration procedures is called
"They Came In Ships", by John P. Colletta.

He seems to have rewritten it recently, as I saw a copy at the Avotaynu
table in the vendor room at the Chicago conference and it has a new cover.
A lot of these questions will be answered in this book. It is available
at the usual suspect book stores as well as Avotaynu.

Joe Fibel


Etta SATTENBERG found #general

Barbara Zimmer
 

Gary asked about finding Etta SATTENBERG's family. Her parents were
Abraham Sattenberg and Pauline whose surname could have been either
JACOBY or KRUSE. Etta married Vincenzo ANZALONE in 1909 when she
was already pregnant with their first chlld. Supposedly Etta's
family disowned her for marrying outside the faith, but I think I
have found evidence that her mother Pauline continued to count her as
one of the children.

Etta died in Feb 1920; she and Vincent are listed in the 1920 census
in Brooklyn with her five living children. Her oldest son, Abraham,
who was listed in the 1910 census, is no longer listed with the
family (and may have died?).

Since I thought that perhaps Ettie had brothers and sisters, I found
that Rose Sattenberg married Heris Schlussel in Manhattan Dec 10
1902. (at ItalianGen.org)

Going backward I was able to find a family that matched in the 1890
New York Police Census (at Ancestry). I found Lena (Pauline)
Sattenberg age 38, Rose age 7 , Harris age 9 Abraham age 4 and Hattie
(could this be Ettie?) Sattenberg age 1 month. No adult male was
listed in this family .

In the 1900 census I found Lena Satenberg [sic] with a daughter Etta.
Lena Satenberg, widow, age 41 gave birth to 14 children, 4 living.
She says she arrived in the US in 1862. She was >from Germany, and
the children's father was >from Austria.
Her children were Harry, 18, presser of clothing
Rosie, 16, operator on ladies' waists
Abram age 12 and Etta age 8.

In the 1910 census Poline [sic] (Lena is crossed out) is transcribed
as Sottensky because the census taker squeezed the letters togethers.
Her children Rose, Harry and Ettie are supposedly living with her in
Brooklyn, but all three of them were already out of the house and
married.

Harris/ Harry shows up again in the 1920 census living in the Bronx
with his wife Gertrude and three children.

According to the death records at ItalianGen, Pauline died in
Brooklyn in 1911 at age 51, and her son Abraham died in Brooklyn at
at 38 in 1928.

Barbara Zimmer


JewishGen Discussion Group #JewishGen Etta SATTENBERG found #general

Barbara Zimmer
 

Gary asked about finding Etta SATTENBERG's family. Her parents were
Abraham Sattenberg and Pauline whose surname could have been either
JACOBY or KRUSE. Etta married Vincenzo ANZALONE in 1909 when she
was already pregnant with their first chlld. Supposedly Etta's
family disowned her for marrying outside the faith, but I think I
have found evidence that her mother Pauline continued to count her as
one of the children.

Etta died in Feb 1920; she and Vincent are listed in the 1920 census
in Brooklyn with her five living children. Her oldest son, Abraham,
who was listed in the 1910 census, is no longer listed with the
family (and may have died?).

Since I thought that perhaps Ettie had brothers and sisters, I found
that Rose Sattenberg married Heris Schlussel in Manhattan Dec 10
1902. (at ItalianGen.org)

Going backward I was able to find a family that matched in the 1890
New York Police Census (at Ancestry). I found Lena (Pauline)
Sattenberg age 38, Rose age 7 , Harris age 9 Abraham age 4 and Hattie
(could this be Ettie?) Sattenberg age 1 month. No adult male was
listed in this family .

In the 1900 census I found Lena Satenberg [sic] with a daughter Etta.
Lena Satenberg, widow, age 41 gave birth to 14 children, 4 living.
She says she arrived in the US in 1862. She was >from Germany, and
the children's father was >from Austria.
Her children were Harry, 18, presser of clothing
Rosie, 16, operator on ladies' waists
Abram age 12 and Etta age 8.

In the 1910 census Poline [sic] (Lena is crossed out) is transcribed
as Sottensky because the census taker squeezed the letters togethers.
Her children Rose, Harry and Ettie are supposedly living with her in
Brooklyn, but all three of them were already out of the house and
married.

Harris/ Harry shows up again in the 1920 census living in the Bronx
with his wife Gertrude and three children.

According to the death records at ItalianGen, Pauline died in
Brooklyn in 1911 at age 51, and her son Abraham died in Brooklyn at
at 38 in 1928.

Barbara Zimmer


Abraham & Dora NEWMAN, Brooklyn, NY #general

Terry Newman <tasnewman@...>
 

Dear JewishGenners

My grandfather, Louis Alfred Newman, 1881-1935, who was born In Lublin,
Poland, emigrated to Australia in the early 1900's, where he settled and
raised a family.

A brother, Edward Newman, emigrated to New York (also in the early 1900's)
where he met and married Dora Zorowitz. They had 3 daughters and one son
(Frances, Pauline, Ruth and Irwin).

Prior to changing their surname to Newman, the family name back in Poland
was Szajtel (pronounced Sheitel, which is the Yiddish for women's wig).

I understand Edward and Dora lived on Barbey St Brooklyn, and attended a
small shule on the corner of Barbey St and Dumont Ave. (Edward was religious
and davened there before going to work.)

I believe the shule may no longer be in existence.

Perhaps some readers may remember the family. Edward is thought to have
died around 1966 and his wife a few years later.

I am seeking details of the above mentioned shule, and whether
congregational records are available.

Chag Sameach for a Prosperous New Year.

Terry Newman
Sydney, Australia


JewishGen Discussion Group #JewishGen Abraham & Dora NEWMAN, Brooklyn, NY #general

Terry Newman <tasnewman@...>
 

Dear JewishGenners

My grandfather, Louis Alfred Newman, 1881-1935, who was born In Lublin,
Poland, emigrated to Australia in the early 1900's, where he settled and
raised a family.

A brother, Edward Newman, emigrated to New York (also in the early 1900's)
where he met and married Dora Zorowitz. They had 3 daughters and one son
(Frances, Pauline, Ruth and Irwin).

Prior to changing their surname to Newman, the family name back in Poland
was Szajtel (pronounced Sheitel, which is the Yiddish for women's wig).

I understand Edward and Dora lived on Barbey St Brooklyn, and attended a
small shule on the corner of Barbey St and Dumont Ave. (Edward was religious
and davened there before going to work.)

I believe the shule may no longer be in existence.

Perhaps some readers may remember the family. Edward is thought to have
died around 1966 and his wife a few years later.

I am seeking details of the above mentioned shule, and whether
congregational records are available.

Chag Sameach for a Prosperous New Year.

Terry Newman
Sydney, Australia


The Chazon Ish #rabbinic

Bernard Weill
 

Hello to all,

I would like to request some information, clarification >from a
direct descendant of the Chazon Ish zt"l. If someone has an email
or telephone number to a direct descendant of the Chazon Ish zt"l,
I would appreciate if you could share it with me. Thank you.

Wishing all RavSiggers a Ksivah Vchasimah Tova and a gut gebentcht
year.

B Weill

[MODERATOR'S NOTE: Please resond privately.]


Rabbinic Genealogy SIG #Rabbinic The Chazon Ish #rabbinic

Bernard Weill
 

Hello to all,

I would like to request some information, clarification >from a
direct descendant of the Chazon Ish zt"l. If someone has an email
or telephone number to a direct descendant of the Chazon Ish zt"l,
I would appreciate if you could share it with me. Thank you.

Wishing all RavSiggers a Ksivah Vchasimah Tova and a gut gebentcht
year.

B Weill

[MODERATOR'S NOTE: Please resond privately.]


Re: Searching for SATTENBERG #general

Ann Rabinowitz <annrab@...>
 

Records on Ancestry.com and JewishGen's JRI-Poland, seem to indicate
that several SATTENBERGs, who came to America, were >from a place called
Zyrardow, Poland. On the manifests, it was spelled Shirardorff.

This might be a new avenue for Gary Sandler to pursue regarding the
family of his wife's great grandmother.

Ann Rabinowitz
annrab@bellsouth.net


JewishGen Discussion Group #JewishGen RE: Searching for SATTENBERG #general

Ann Rabinowitz <annrab@...>
 

Records on Ancestry.com and JewishGen's JRI-Poland, seem to indicate
that several SATTENBERGs, who came to America, were >from a place called
Zyrardow, Poland. On the manifests, it was spelled Shirardorff.

This might be a new avenue for Gary Sandler to pursue regarding the
family of his wife's great grandmother.

Ann Rabinowitz
annrab@bellsouth.net


Re: query regarding names: same person? #general

Sue Clamp <clamp@...>
 

MBernet@aol.com wrote:
Are Wolf and Jacob brothers? Jacob was born 1850: Wolf died
1959, 109 years later. Not much chance that they are brothers. There
is a high possibility that the father of one was named after his father
and the father of the other was named after the same person who was
his grandfather.
But there *is* a possibility, particularly if their father married
twice. My uncle (half brother to my mother) was born in 1908, my mother
was born 20 years later. He died in 1965, but she and an older sister
are still very much alive and kicking, more than 40 years after his death.
Even with both parents the same, there was a period of 33 years between
the deaths of my father's oldest sister and his own death. >from my own
experience, if there are a high number of siblings in a family, I don't
see why this should be so unlikely.

Sue

Searching: ROSENBERG (Warsaw and Serock), SKOWRONEK, HERSZENKRUG,
CHENCINER, KRIGSMAN, KRIEGSMAN (Warsaw)

Sue Clamp
Cambridgeshire, UK

NOTE: Please remove .invalid >from email address to reply (anti-spam measure)


JewishGen Discussion Group #JewishGen Re: query regarding names: same person? #general

Sue Clamp <clamp@...>
 

MBernet@aol.com wrote:
Are Wolf and Jacob brothers? Jacob was born 1850: Wolf died
1959, 109 years later. Not much chance that they are brothers. There
is a high possibility that the father of one was named after his father
and the father of the other was named after the same person who was
his grandfather.
But there *is* a possibility, particularly if their father married
twice. My uncle (half brother to my mother) was born in 1908, my mother
was born 20 years later. He died in 1965, but she and an older sister
are still very much alive and kicking, more than 40 years after his death.
Even with both parents the same, there was a period of 33 years between
the deaths of my father's oldest sister and his own death. >from my own
experience, if there are a high number of siblings in a family, I don't
see why this should be so unlikely.

Sue

Searching: ROSENBERG (Warsaw and Serock), SKOWRONEK, HERSZENKRUG,
CHENCINER, KRIGSMAN, KRIEGSMAN (Warsaw)

Sue Clamp
Cambridgeshire, UK

NOTE: Please remove .invalid >from email address to reply (anti-spam measure)


Re: query regarding names: same person? #general

Robert Israel <israel@...>
 

If Jacob really died in 1929 aged 79 (as you stated), he is not very
likely to have had a brother who died 30 years later in 1959 (as you
also stated).
It's not all that unlikely. Many families had their first and last children
separated by more than 20 years. For example, my grandfather, born 1897,
had a sister born in 1923. Their mother was probably about 18 for the first
birth and 44 for the last. If your Wolf was 20 years younger than Jacob, he
died at age 89.

Robert Israel
israel@math.MyUniversitysInitials.ca
http://www.math.ubc.ca/~israel
University of British Columbia
Vancouver, BC, Canada


JewishGen Discussion Group #JewishGen Re: query regarding names: same person? #general

Robert Israel <israel@...>
 

If Jacob really died in 1929 aged 79 (as you stated), he is not very
likely to have had a brother who died 30 years later in 1959 (as you
also stated).
It's not all that unlikely. Many families had their first and last children
separated by more than 20 years. For example, my grandfather, born 1897,
had a sister born in 1923. Their mother was probably about 18 for the first
birth and 44 for the last. If your Wolf was 20 years younger than Jacob, he
died at age 89.

Robert Israel
israel@math.MyUniversitysInitials.ca
http://www.math.ubc.ca/~israel
University of British Columbia
Vancouver, BC, Canada


Help deciphering Manifest and place name locations #general

eaubor@...
 

Dear Genners,
If anyone could help me decipher some words on the manifest for
Froim Bockhart who arrived to Ellis Island July 13, 1907 >from
Liverpool on the "Etruria". Line 13 pages 159 and 160.

The Special Inquiry pages shows the name amended to Bakhaut.
The words I am having trouble with are:
on page 160
a. The word after Provision.. in the Occupation column,
b. The name of the town/city in the Last Permanent Residence column.
(looks like Slucov, phonetic for Zloczow, but don't let my thinking
influence)
c. The wifes place of residence in the next column. (looks like Kopcu
or Kopeu or perhaps even Kokiu)

on page 159
d. In the last column Place of birth, under town/city (the first part
or word looks like Sokol)

I know there is a Sokolowka near Zloczow, but again don't be
influenced by my thinking.
(perhaps this is just what I would like it to be, and the wifes
residence doesn't gel.)

Please reply directly unless of general interest.

with thanks,

Ephraim Aubor
Melbourne Australia


JewishGen Discussion Group #JewishGen Help deciphering Manifest and place name locations #general

eaubor@...
 

Dear Genners,
If anyone could help me decipher some words on the manifest for
Froim Bockhart who arrived to Ellis Island July 13, 1907 >from
Liverpool on the "Etruria". Line 13 pages 159 and 160.

The Special Inquiry pages shows the name amended to Bakhaut.
The words I am having trouble with are:
on page 160
a. The word after Provision.. in the Occupation column,
b. The name of the town/city in the Last Permanent Residence column.
(looks like Slucov, phonetic for Zloczow, but don't let my thinking
influence)
c. The wifes place of residence in the next column. (looks like Kopcu
or Kopeu or perhaps even Kokiu)

on page 159
d. In the last column Place of birth, under town/city (the first part
or word looks like Sokol)

I know there is a Sokolowka near Zloczow, but again don't be
influenced by my thinking.
(perhaps this is just what I would like it to be, and the wifes
residence doesn't gel.)

Please reply directly unless of general interest.

with thanks,

Ephraim Aubor
Melbourne Australia


Re: Determine Name of Ship, Now: Immigrant Documents #general

Peter Zavon <pzavon@...>
 

<dogwalker47-research@yahoo.com> wrote
Was the list of scheduled passengers the same as the manifest? If so,
was it created prior to the trip >from the tickets that had been sold
and scheduled for that trip? This would explain why names are sometimes
crossed off -- perhaps they didn't show up?

There were several different manifest forms because there were several
different organizations requiring lists of passengers. For example, the
port of departure might keep a list. Most UK ports did that after 1895
for departures to places beyond Europe and the Mediterranean. Hamburg
and Bremen did it for many years before that. Then the port of arrival
might require deposit of a list. US ports had such a requirement at
least >from 1847. The shipping company may also have needed a list of its own.
And each of them may have required different information, in a different
format.

The US arrivals format was certainly different >from the UK departures format
for the same voyage.

We do know, however, that the US arrivals Manifest was completed by the
ships officers (or at least signed by the Captain, perhaps completed by
clerks) and that this process could begin before the vessel departed Europe.
So that, yes, some of the crossed out entries are that way because the
person missed the boat. They may have become ill to the point where they
either could not travel or would not have been admitted to the US, and so
took a later sailing, or they ran out of money and had to go elsewhere, or
they died before boarding, etc., etc.

Then when the immigrant deboarded, what documentation did they have as
they went through the inspections? Were they queried to see if the
information they gave the inspector matched the manifest? And if so,
where did the inspectors get the manifest information?
The passenger manifest was handed over to the immigration inspectors in US
ports of arrival and was used by the inspector during the inspection.
You can see notations on the manifests related to people who were
detained for further assessment, etc. This is why the stories of names
being changed by the Inspector at Ellis Island (or Castle Garden) are
mostly poppycock. The inspector had the names written out in front of them,
as well as having the aid of translators standing right there.

And finally,
back to Ann's comment, what documentation left Castle Garden/Ellis
Island with them?
They were handed a small piece of paper as a pass to leave the precincts of
the Inspection agency. Most of those do not seem to have survived.
That is probably one reason so many applicants for citizenship did not
later remember correctly their date of arrival.

I'm most interested in the 1880s-1890s, as I suspect things changed
at some time in the 1900s.
The process changed several times during the 1800s as well.

Peter Zavon
Penfield, NY

PZAVON@Rochester.rr.com


JewishGen Discussion Group #JewishGen Re: Determine Name of Ship, Now: Immigrant Documents #general

Peter Zavon <pzavon@...>
 

<dogwalker47-research@yahoo.com> wrote
Was the list of scheduled passengers the same as the manifest? If so,
was it created prior to the trip >from the tickets that had been sold
and scheduled for that trip? This would explain why names are sometimes
crossed off -- perhaps they didn't show up?

There were several different manifest forms because there were several
different organizations requiring lists of passengers. For example, the
port of departure might keep a list. Most UK ports did that after 1895
for departures to places beyond Europe and the Mediterranean. Hamburg
and Bremen did it for many years before that. Then the port of arrival
might require deposit of a list. US ports had such a requirement at
least >from 1847. The shipping company may also have needed a list of its own.
And each of them may have required different information, in a different
format.

The US arrivals format was certainly different >from the UK departures format
for the same voyage.

We do know, however, that the US arrivals Manifest was completed by the
ships officers (or at least signed by the Captain, perhaps completed by
clerks) and that this process could begin before the vessel departed Europe.
So that, yes, some of the crossed out entries are that way because the
person missed the boat. They may have become ill to the point where they
either could not travel or would not have been admitted to the US, and so
took a later sailing, or they ran out of money and had to go elsewhere, or
they died before boarding, etc., etc.

Then when the immigrant deboarded, what documentation did they have as
they went through the inspections? Were they queried to see if the
information they gave the inspector matched the manifest? And if so,
where did the inspectors get the manifest information?
The passenger manifest was handed over to the immigration inspectors in US
ports of arrival and was used by the inspector during the inspection.
You can see notations on the manifests related to people who were
detained for further assessment, etc. This is why the stories of names
being changed by the Inspector at Ellis Island (or Castle Garden) are
mostly poppycock. The inspector had the names written out in front of them,
as well as having the aid of translators standing right there.

And finally,
back to Ann's comment, what documentation left Castle Garden/Ellis
Island with them?
They were handed a small piece of paper as a pass to leave the precincts of
the Inspection agency. Most of those do not seem to have survived.
That is probably one reason so many applicants for citizenship did not
later remember correctly their date of arrival.

I'm most interested in the 1880s-1890s, as I suspect things changed
at some time in the 1900s.
The process changed several times during the 1800s as well.

Peter Zavon
Penfield, NY

PZAVON@Rochester.rr.com


GRUNBAUM - Caracas #general

George J. Fogelson
 

I am searching for descendents of Karla and Elsa GRUNBAUM of Caracas.
I have a record stating that they lived there in 1963. They may have
been originally >from Berlin. Karla GRUNBAUM was the niece of Gertrude
Brat of Los Angeles.

George Fogelson
Los Angeles
fogelson@alum.calberkeley.org


JewishGen Discussion Group #JewishGen GRUNBAUM - Caracas #general

George J. Fogelson
 

I am searching for descendents of Karla and Elsa GRUNBAUM of Caracas.
I have a record stating that they lived there in 1963. They may have
been originally >from Berlin. Karla GRUNBAUM was the niece of Gertrude
Brat of Los Angeles.

George Fogelson
Los Angeles
fogelson@alum.calberkeley.org