Date   

CARO Puzzle #general

Chuck Culman & Alice Fisher
 

I've traced back one branch of my family to Katie CARO, daughter of Jacob
and Mathilde (nee LEWI). The 1870 US Census has the family in New York
City:

Jacob, age 39, born in Russia
Mathilde, age 32, born in Prussia
Kate, age 13, born in England
Harris, age 10, born in New York
Sarah, age 7, born in New York
Leanor(?), age 5, born in New York
Mary, age 3, born in New York
Realca (? hard to read), age 1, born in New York

On her marriage certificate, Katie lists her birthplace as London.

Now for my puzzle. Last week, I ran across an entry >from the 1861 English
Census for Newcastle on the Tyne:

Jacob CARO, age 29, born in Prussia (a naturalized British subject)
Mathilde, age 23, born in Prussia
Edmund, age 2, born in Newcastle Tyne
Lionel, age 1, born in Newcastle Tyne

Is this the same Jacob and Mathilde? The ages are good, birthplaces are
good, and since Katie was born in England, it makes sense to find the family
there. But where in the English Census is Katie (she should be 4)?
Harris should also be there, about age 1. Could Harris (born in New York)
be Lionel (born in Newcastle)? What happened to Edmund?

The information for Jacob and Mathilde is so close, I would think it was a
match. But the children are all wrong, making me think I don't. Can anyone
share any wisdom on what I should do with this data?

Thanks,
- Chuck Culman


JewishGen Discussion Group #JewishGen CARO Puzzle #general

Chuck Culman & Alice Fisher
 

I've traced back one branch of my family to Katie CARO, daughter of Jacob
and Mathilde (nee LEWI). The 1870 US Census has the family in New York
City:

Jacob, age 39, born in Russia
Mathilde, age 32, born in Prussia
Kate, age 13, born in England
Harris, age 10, born in New York
Sarah, age 7, born in New York
Leanor(?), age 5, born in New York
Mary, age 3, born in New York
Realca (? hard to read), age 1, born in New York

On her marriage certificate, Katie lists her birthplace as London.

Now for my puzzle. Last week, I ran across an entry >from the 1861 English
Census for Newcastle on the Tyne:

Jacob CARO, age 29, born in Prussia (a naturalized British subject)
Mathilde, age 23, born in Prussia
Edmund, age 2, born in Newcastle Tyne
Lionel, age 1, born in Newcastle Tyne

Is this the same Jacob and Mathilde? The ages are good, birthplaces are
good, and since Katie was born in England, it makes sense to find the family
there. But where in the English Census is Katie (she should be 4)?
Harris should also be there, about age 1. Could Harris (born in New York)
be Lionel (born in Newcastle)? What happened to Edmund?

The information for Jacob and Mathilde is so close, I would think it was a
match. But the children are all wrong, making me think I don't. Can anyone
share any wisdom on what I should do with this data?

Thanks,
- Chuck Culman


Researcher in Switzerland? #general

Sfingold
 

A relative with roots in Basle, Switzerland is looking for a researcher.
My relative was in Basle this summer and the archives had a number of
records. Now, he'd like to find someone to help him with the research.
If you can recommend someone, please reply privately to sfingold@sbcglobal.net.

Thank you!

Sharon Fingold
sfingold@sbcglobal.net (California)


JewishGen Discussion Group #JewishGen Researcher in Switzerland? #general

Sfingold
 

A relative with roots in Basle, Switzerland is looking for a researcher.
My relative was in Basle this summer and the archives had a number of
records. Now, he'd like to find someone to help him with the research.
If you can recommend someone, please reply privately to sfingold@sbcglobal.net.

Thank you!

Sharon Fingold
sfingold@sbcglobal.net (California)


Re: Name spellings - MANDL, MANDEL, MANDELOV #general

Celia Male <celiamale@...>
 

Michael Samson wrote: "My {maternal} gt-grandparents immigrated to the
Chicago area in 1882. .....My Gt-grandfather was Simon CZECH. He married
Sara Charlotte MANDL. My quandary comes in trying to figure out which of
several spelling is correct for Sara. In some documents she is referred
to as Sara, Sara Charlotte or Charlotte. Her last name is also confusing.
It is sometimes spelled MANDEL or Mandl. We have a stitched sampler ....
which is signed "Lotte MANDELOV." ... The marriage license which was
issued in the town of Pilsen spells her name as MANDEL, so removal of
the "lov" clearly didn't occur when she arrived.... "

There is absolutely no problem about parts of this query. Pilsen is in
Bohemia {Czech Republic today} so I suggest Michael joins the Austria-Czech
SIG, where he can learn all about Pilsen and Bohemian history:
http://www.jewishgen.org/austriaczech/

Charlotte learnt German at school and probably spoke it at home too
[see point 3], as did most Bohemian Jews, and Lotte is just an
abbreviated/familiar form of the name. The fact she is called Sara
on a certificate and Charlotte is also no problem. My Bohemian gt-gt-
grandmother, appears as Sara POPPER on her birth registration
[March 19 1811 Kolin] and as Caroline on her tombstone. One was her
religious name and the other her everyday secular name: Here is her
tombstone in Vienna, with no sign of Sara to be seen:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/cam37/1095674677/

As for MANDL - I have four separate spellings in the 1793 Jewish census
of Bohemia: MANDEL MANDL and MANDTL as well as MANDELES.

Now to the problematic part - the name MANDELOV. {sic} on the cross
stitch sampler. There could be various explanations for the suffix "ov":

1. The archaic feminine form [German] is MANDELIN, but the Czech feminine
ending is MANDELOVA. Lotte may not have had room on her sampler to add
the final A. However, she was a young girl and unlikely to call herself
MANDELOVA - also she is unlikely to have used a Czech suffix at this time.

2. If you google some names like FUCHSOV and NEUMANOV you will find they
appertain to men. Again this is nothing to do with a gender ending but
points to a collective family name ie the clan of FUCHS and NEUMAN.
An Austria-Czech member [Hanus Grab] I consulted, who is fluent in Czech
and German wrote to me: this ending, still used in Slovakia,
[FUCHSOV MANDELOV etc] is a plural form of the name - thus "across the
street I saw the MANDELS = this would be the same in German but in
Slovakian one would say "Na protajsi strane ulice som vidiel MANDELOV"
and in modern Czech "Na protilehle strane ulice jsem videl MANDELOVI".

3. The most plausible explanation, however, is that this family still
spoke Yiddish at home, en famille, and little Lotte was using the
Yiddish/Russian suffix to her family name. This family may have been
immigrants to Bohemia >from Galicia, Russia or the Carpathian region,
ie not local Pilsener MANDEL and were first known as MANDELOV.

Whereas MANDL and variants is a very common Jewish family name in
Bohemia - CZECH is extremely rare [as in Simon CZECH, above]. There
is only one CZECH [Joachim] listed in the Bohemian Jewish census of
1793. I now wonder where Simon CZECH came from?

Yes, this "ov" suffix may be a real linguistic genealogical clue, but
has nothing to do with the name! With thanks to Hanus Grab for his
patience in our numerous email exchanges about these two letters.

Celia Male, London, U.K.


JewishGen Discussion Group #JewishGen re: Name spellings - MANDL, MANDEL, MANDELOV #general

Celia Male <celiamale@...>
 

Michael Samson wrote: "My {maternal} gt-grandparents immigrated to the
Chicago area in 1882. .....My Gt-grandfather was Simon CZECH. He married
Sara Charlotte MANDL. My quandary comes in trying to figure out which of
several spelling is correct for Sara. In some documents she is referred
to as Sara, Sara Charlotte or Charlotte. Her last name is also confusing.
It is sometimes spelled MANDEL or Mandl. We have a stitched sampler ....
which is signed "Lotte MANDELOV." ... The marriage license which was
issued in the town of Pilsen spells her name as MANDEL, so removal of
the "lov" clearly didn't occur when she arrived.... "

There is absolutely no problem about parts of this query. Pilsen is in
Bohemia {Czech Republic today} so I suggest Michael joins the Austria-Czech
SIG, where he can learn all about Pilsen and Bohemian history:
http://www.jewishgen.org/austriaczech/

Charlotte learnt German at school and probably spoke it at home too
[see point 3], as did most Bohemian Jews, and Lotte is just an
abbreviated/familiar form of the name. The fact she is called Sara
on a certificate and Charlotte is also no problem. My Bohemian gt-gt-
grandmother, appears as Sara POPPER on her birth registration
[March 19 1811 Kolin] and as Caroline on her tombstone. One was her
religious name and the other her everyday secular name: Here is her
tombstone in Vienna, with no sign of Sara to be seen:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/cam37/1095674677/

As for MANDL - I have four separate spellings in the 1793 Jewish census
of Bohemia: MANDEL MANDL and MANDTL as well as MANDELES.

Now to the problematic part - the name MANDELOV. {sic} on the cross
stitch sampler. There could be various explanations for the suffix "ov":

1. The archaic feminine form [German] is MANDELIN, but the Czech feminine
ending is MANDELOVA. Lotte may not have had room on her sampler to add
the final A. However, she was a young girl and unlikely to call herself
MANDELOVA - also she is unlikely to have used a Czech suffix at this time.

2. If you google some names like FUCHSOV and NEUMANOV you will find they
appertain to men. Again this is nothing to do with a gender ending but
points to a collective family name ie the clan of FUCHS and NEUMAN.
An Austria-Czech member [Hanus Grab] I consulted, who is fluent in Czech
and German wrote to me: this ending, still used in Slovakia,
[FUCHSOV MANDELOV etc] is a plural form of the name - thus "across the
street I saw the MANDELS = this would be the same in German but in
Slovakian one would say "Na protajsi strane ulice som vidiel MANDELOV"
and in modern Czech "Na protilehle strane ulice jsem videl MANDELOVI".

3. The most plausible explanation, however, is that this family still
spoke Yiddish at home, en famille, and little Lotte was using the
Yiddish/Russian suffix to her family name. This family may have been
immigrants to Bohemia >from Galicia, Russia or the Carpathian region,
ie not local Pilsener MANDEL and were first known as MANDELOV.

Whereas MANDL and variants is a very common Jewish family name in
Bohemia - CZECH is extremely rare [as in Simon CZECH, above]. There
is only one CZECH [Joachim] listed in the Bohemian Jewish census of
1793. I now wonder where Simon CZECH came from?

Yes, this "ov" suffix may be a real linguistic genealogical clue, but
has nothing to do with the name! With thanks to Hanus Grab for his
patience in our numerous email exchanges about these two letters.

Celia Male, London, U.K.


Re: Name spellings - MANDL, MANDEL, MANDELOV #general

MBernet@...
 

In a message dated 9/21/2008 11:10:24 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
mikesammy@indy.rr.com writes:
<< My G-grandfather was Simon CZECH. He married Sara Charlotte
MANDL. My quandary comes in trying to figure out which of several spelling
is correct for Sara. In some documents she is referred to as Sara, Sara
Charlotte or Charlotte. Her last name is also confusing. It is sometimes
spelled MANDEL or Mandl.

==My mother, born in Fuerth Bavaria in 1906, in a very Orthodox family, was
given the Hebrew name Sara, after her grandmother Sara Timmendorfer, born
Silesia, 1838. Both were also given the secular name Charlotte. (In Hebrew,
the initials S and Ch [when pronounced Sh] are spelled with the similar
letters Seen and Sheen, differentiated only by the placement of one dot.
Sara/Charlotte appears to have been a very common combination in Germanic
countries.

==Mendel is the kinnuy (common companion name) of the Hebrew name
Menachem. How it developed is an interesting story; anyone interested
can find it in the jewishgen archives. Mendel was often written Mendl
or Mandel. Other variants were Mann and Menlein. Surnames derived
from it included Mandelbaum, Mandelkorn, Mandelbrot and, of course,
Mendelsohn.

==The personal name Mendel was often "germanized" as Emmanuel
(an otherwise rare name among Jews, though it is >from the Hebrew).
In around 1880 it was often further "germanized" as Emil.

== the -ov suffix is Slavic. I believe it means "child of."

Michael Bernet, New York
mbernet@aol.com


Re: Name spellings - MANDL, MANDEL, MANDELOV #general

cecilia <myths@...>
 

Mike Samson wrote:

[...]
"Lotte MANDELOV." Oh boy, another spelling! For years I wondered who the
heck was Lotte Mandelov? Then it dawned on me that Lotte might be a nick
name for Charlotte and that Mandelov might be another spelling for Mandel.
[...] Can anyone tell me under what circumstances "lov" might be added to a
name? I assume it's fall along the same lines as "..ski" or ".sky" in Polish
or ".ensky" or ".loff" in Russian. Did this have something to do with her
status as a minor or a female?

Also, is the name "Lotte" a typical nickname for someone named Charlotte?
Lotte is a very typical nickname for Charlotte.

(Search Google for
Charlotte Lotte
for examples.)

I think (but this is only through web-surfing) that the addition is
-OV rather than -LOV.

See
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Family_name_affixes
for the suffix -ov.

(See also - but I have no idea if ancestry is correct -
http://www.ancestry.com/facts/Mandel-family-history.ashx
http://www.ancestry.com/facts/Mandl-family-history.ashx )

Cecilia Nyleve


JewishGen Discussion Group #JewishGen Re: Name spellings - MANDL, MANDEL, MANDELOV #general

MBernet@...
 

In a message dated 9/21/2008 11:10:24 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
mikesammy@indy.rr.com writes:
<< My G-grandfather was Simon CZECH. He married Sara Charlotte
MANDL. My quandary comes in trying to figure out which of several spelling
is correct for Sara. In some documents she is referred to as Sara, Sara
Charlotte or Charlotte. Her last name is also confusing. It is sometimes
spelled MANDEL or Mandl.

==My mother, born in Fuerth Bavaria in 1906, in a very Orthodox family, was
given the Hebrew name Sara, after her grandmother Sara Timmendorfer, born
Silesia, 1838. Both were also given the secular name Charlotte. (In Hebrew,
the initials S and Ch [when pronounced Sh] are spelled with the similar
letters Seen and Sheen, differentiated only by the placement of one dot.
Sara/Charlotte appears to have been a very common combination in Germanic
countries.

==Mendel is the kinnuy (common companion name) of the Hebrew name
Menachem. How it developed is an interesting story; anyone interested
can find it in the jewishgen archives. Mendel was often written Mendl
or Mandel. Other variants were Mann and Menlein. Surnames derived
from it included Mandelbaum, Mandelkorn, Mandelbrot and, of course,
Mendelsohn.

==The personal name Mendel was often "germanized" as Emmanuel
(an otherwise rare name among Jews, though it is >from the Hebrew).
In around 1880 it was often further "germanized" as Emil.

== the -ov suffix is Slavic. I believe it means "child of."

Michael Bernet, New York
mbernet@aol.com


JewishGen Discussion Group #JewishGen Re: Name spellings - MANDL, MANDEL, MANDELOV #general

cecilia <myths@...>
 

Mike Samson wrote:

[...]
"Lotte MANDELOV." Oh boy, another spelling! For years I wondered who the
heck was Lotte Mandelov? Then it dawned on me that Lotte might be a nick
name for Charlotte and that Mandelov might be another spelling for Mandel.
[...] Can anyone tell me under what circumstances "lov" might be added to a
name? I assume it's fall along the same lines as "..ski" or ".sky" in Polish
or ".ensky" or ".loff" in Russian. Did this have something to do with her
status as a minor or a female?

Also, is the name "Lotte" a typical nickname for someone named Charlotte?
Lotte is a very typical nickname for Charlotte.

(Search Google for
Charlotte Lotte
for examples.)

I think (but this is only through web-surfing) that the addition is
-OV rather than -LOV.

See
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Family_name_affixes
for the suffix -ov.

(See also - but I have no idea if ancestry is correct -
http://www.ancestry.com/facts/Mandel-family-history.ashx
http://www.ancestry.com/facts/Mandl-family-history.ashx )

Cecilia Nyleve


Re: Names of maabarot - correction #general

MBernet@...
 

MODERATOR NOTE, In a message dated 9/23/2008 2:43:15 P.M. Eastern Daylight
Time,
<< Maabarot were refugee tent camps in the early days
of the State of Israel.

==Many ma'abarot consisted of quite sturdy, well-built huts. Some included
buildings that had been abandoned by the British or by Arabs. I visited or
overnighted at quite a few of them 1949-51.

The word ma`abar (sing) means transition

Michael Bernet, New York
mbernet@aol.com


JewishGen Discussion Group #JewishGen Re: Names of maabarot - correction #general

MBernet@...
 

MODERATOR NOTE, In a message dated 9/23/2008 2:43:15 P.M. Eastern Daylight
Time,
<< Maabarot were refugee tent camps in the early days
of the State of Israel.

==Many ma'abarot consisted of quite sturdy, well-built huts. Some included
buildings that had been abandoned by the British or by Arabs. I visited or
overnighted at quite a few of them 1949-51.

The word ma`abar (sing) means transition

Michael Bernet, New York
mbernet@aol.com


Re: Additions to NARA (USA) Records and Louisiana Death Records #general

david rubin <dovrubin1@...>
 

---On Sun, 9/21/08, jan meisels allen <janmallen@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
The National Archives and Records Administration (NARA) [USA]
has added to their "Access To Archival Databases (AAD) passenger lists
Russians to America Passenger Data File 1834-1897
Germans to America Data File 1850-1897
Italians to America Data File 1855-1900
Great information. I did notice that when I searched the
Russian files I was only given the manifest number for each
individual record. To get the date, ship and port of departure
information I had to search the number in the Manifest Header
Data File. If there is some easier way it would be nice to
know.

Sincerely,
David Rubin


JewishGen Discussion Group #JewishGen Re: Additions to NARA (USA) Records and Louisiana Death Records #general

david rubin <dovrubin1@...>
 

---On Sun, 9/21/08, jan meisels allen <janmallen@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
The National Archives and Records Administration (NARA) [USA]
has added to their "Access To Archival Databases (AAD) passenger lists
Russians to America Passenger Data File 1834-1897
Germans to America Data File 1850-1897
Italians to America Data File 1855-1900
Great information. I did notice that when I searched the
Russian files I was only given the manifest number for each
individual record. To get the date, ship and port of departure
information I had to search the number in the Manifest Header
Data File. If there is some easier way it would be nice to
know.

Sincerely,
David Rubin


Re: query regarding names: same person? #general

Wegner, Peter
 

Jenni asked:
>do you think these two names are
the same person? They are the fathers of two men, written on
separate gravestones in different cemeteries - we are trying to
fit them all together and find out who is sibling to who......
Wolf: died 23 July 1959 - son of Rabbi Shiya Aziel
Jacob: died 1929 age 79- son of Yeshaya Ezial

Dear Jenni,

If Jacob really died in 1929 aged 79 (as you stated), he is not very
likely to have had a brother who died 30 years later in 1959 (as you
also stated). Therefore (unless one of the death years was an
accidental typo) you should probably assume that the two fathers
named on those stones were not the same man (even though they have
similar-looking forenames).

Also: You did not actually give us the surname of those two fathers,
so have you perhaps assumed that "Aziel" was the surname in both cases?
Aziel is not a surname. In fact, in the spelling you gave us, it is
not even a forename! But perhaps you meant to type one of two
biblical Hebrew names that do exist: "Uzziel" and "Azriel"? Perhaps
one of those two is the actual name on those stones? (But whichever
it is, it would still be a forename and not a surname.)

Nor is it 100% clear whether "Shiya" (in that spelling) and "Yeshaya"
are the same name. "Shiya" (which would be pronounced "Shee-ya") is
an abbreviation or nickname for "Yehoshua" (the biblical "Joshua") --
whereas Yeshaya is an abbreviation for "Yeshayahu" (the biblical
prophet Isaiah). But if the first guy "Shiya" was simply a misspelled
version of "Shaya" (pronounced "Shy-Ya") this would actually be another
abbreviation for Yeshayahu), and in that case both men did indeed have
the same two forenames.

But the hurdle of the ages and death dates of the sons still remains......

Judith Romney Wegner
jrw@brown.edu


JewishGen Discussion Group #JewishGen RE: query regarding names: same person? #general

Wegner, Peter
 

Jenni asked:
>do you think these two names are
the same person? They are the fathers of two men, written on
separate gravestones in different cemeteries - we are trying to
fit them all together and find out who is sibling to who......
Wolf: died 23 July 1959 - son of Rabbi Shiya Aziel
Jacob: died 1929 age 79- son of Yeshaya Ezial

Dear Jenni,

If Jacob really died in 1929 aged 79 (as you stated), he is not very
likely to have had a brother who died 30 years later in 1959 (as you
also stated). Therefore (unless one of the death years was an
accidental typo) you should probably assume that the two fathers
named on those stones were not the same man (even though they have
similar-looking forenames).

Also: You did not actually give us the surname of those two fathers,
so have you perhaps assumed that "Aziel" was the surname in both cases?
Aziel is not a surname. In fact, in the spelling you gave us, it is
not even a forename! But perhaps you meant to type one of two
biblical Hebrew names that do exist: "Uzziel" and "Azriel"? Perhaps
one of those two is the actual name on those stones? (But whichever
it is, it would still be a forename and not a surname.)

Nor is it 100% clear whether "Shiya" (in that spelling) and "Yeshaya"
are the same name. "Shiya" (which would be pronounced "Shee-ya") is
an abbreviation or nickname for "Yehoshua" (the biblical "Joshua") --
whereas Yeshaya is an abbreviation for "Yeshayahu" (the biblical
prophet Isaiah). But if the first guy "Shiya" was simply a misspelled
version of "Shaya" (pronounced "Shy-Ya") this would actually be another
abbreviation for Yeshayahu), and in that case both men did indeed have
the same two forenames.

But the hurdle of the ages and death dates of the sons still remains......

Judith Romney Wegner
jrw@brown.edu


Leon WEINSTEIN aka Leon STONE #france

Jean Perkin <jnp123@...>
 

Leon WEINSTEIN aka Leon STONE was born in Zhaludok Belarus and must have
lived in France. During WW11 he was an airman in De Gaulle's Free French
Force in England where his name was changed to STONE for security purposes.

Whilst in England he used to visit a family who also originated in
Zhaludok. When the war finished he returned to Bordeaux, and they lost
touch.

Has anyone any knowledge of him or his family?

Jean Perkin
England


French SIG #France Leon WEINSTEIN aka Leon STONE #france

Jean Perkin <jnp123@...>
 

Leon WEINSTEIN aka Leon STONE was born in Zhaludok Belarus and must have
lived in France. During WW11 he was an airman in De Gaulle's Free French
Force in England where his name was changed to STONE for security purposes.

Whilst in England he used to visit a family who also originated in
Zhaludok. When the war finished he returned to Bordeaux, and they lost
touch.

Has anyone any knowledge of him or his family?

Jean Perkin
England


URO (United Restitution Organization) #france

Roni Pelled
 

Hello

Seeking the location of records >from the United Restitution Organization's
(URO) office in Paris, c. 1967. Any help would be greatly appreciated

Thank you

Roni Pelled
Israel


French SIG #France URO (United Restitution Organization) #france

Roni Pelled
 

Hello

Seeking the location of records >from the United Restitution Organization's
(URO) office in Paris, c. 1967. Any help would be greatly appreciated

Thank you

Roni Pelled
Israel