Date   

Re: Need suggestions for alternative surname for HOFFMAN on an 1850's passenger lis #usa

Roberlie Lachance <roberlie@...>
 

http://www.familysearch.org shows these variations of Hoffmann:

Hoffmanns (and variations with the plural)
Hauf(f)man(n)
Hoof(f)man(n)
Haf(f)eman(n), Hafman
Hoefman
Hof(f)ma
Hoffmannin
Ockman(n), Aukman(n), Ocman(n), Oxman(n), etc.
Haufmen, Hoofmen
Hofferman(n), Hifferman(n), Hefferman(n)
Huffernan, Hufernann, Chaferman,
Kauf(f)man(n), Coffmann, Caufman, Chafman
Hoff, Huff, Hoef, Hough, Haufe, Hauf(f)(e), Heufs, Heufes, Hoffa, Hoffey,
Hoffie, Hoffee, Hoffy,
Hoof, Hoffs,
Hauffler, Hauffen,
Other Ideas I came up with that may or may not be a surname at all:
Hoffmen, Huffmen, etc
Hoffmon, Huffmon, , etc..
Hope it helps you,
Roberlie

<BRENERDA@aol.com> wrote in message news:232.1244d1c6.32aec36d@aol.com...


I am stumped on this one and have been doing this for 30 years. Even with
the additions of 60 million names on a major online database, I still
can't find the arrival of the following. I have tried all the logical
variations on the HOFFMAN surname (HOFFMANN, HOFMAN, HOFMANN, HUFFMAN,
HUFMAN etc.) Looking
for some more obscure possibilities.
Thanks. David Brener, Fargo, ND


JewishGen Discussion Group #JewishGen Re: Need suggestions for alternative surname for HOFFMAN on an 1850's passenger lis #general

Roberlie Lachance <roberlie@...>
 

http://www.familysearch.org shows these variations of Hoffmann:

Hoffmanns (and variations with the plural)
Hauf(f)man(n)
Hoof(f)man(n)
Haf(f)eman(n), Hafman
Hoefman
Hof(f)ma
Hoffmannin
Ockman(n), Aukman(n), Ocman(n), Oxman(n), etc.
Haufmen, Hoofmen
Hofferman(n), Hifferman(n), Hefferman(n)
Huffernan, Hufernann, Chaferman,
Kauf(f)man(n), Coffmann, Caufman, Chafman
Hoff, Huff, Hoef, Hough, Haufe, Hauf(f)(e), Heufs, Heufes, Hoffa, Hoffey,
Hoffie, Hoffee, Hoffy,
Hoof, Hoffs,
Hauffler, Hauffen,
Other Ideas I came up with that may or may not be a surname at all:
Hoffmen, Huffmen, etc
Hoffmon, Huffmon, , etc..
Hope it helps you,
Roberlie

<BRENERDA@aol.com> wrote in message news:232.1244d1c6.32aec36d@aol.com...


I am stumped on this one and have been doing this for 30 years. Even with
the additions of 60 million names on a major online database, I still
can't find the arrival of the following. I have tried all the logical
variations on the HOFFMAN surname (HOFFMANN, HOFMAN, HOFMANN, HUFFMAN,
HUFMAN etc.) Looking
for some more obscure possibilities.
Thanks. David Brener, Fargo, ND


Re: Decedents of Levy & Hessa SEGAL (France) #general

Eric Svirskis
 

Is it possible that they meant "Horological"? If I recall correctly the
Horologists are watchmakers. Just a thought depending upon the context of
the term.

Eric Svirskis, Melbourne, Australia.

svire@melbpc.org.au
Interested in: FLEXER, GANTOVNIK, OKUN, MUSZKATBLAT, SRAGOWITZ, SVIRSKIS or
SWIRSKY (Panevesz/Panecevysz), & ZILBERMAN (Widze/Vidzy).

|-----Original Message-----
|From: Bubylu@aol.com [mailto:Bubylu@aol.com]
|Sent: Friday, 15 December 2006 10:05 p.m.
|To: JewishGen Discussion Group
|Subject: Decedents of Levy & Hessa SEGAL (France)
|

|Good morning,
|
|I am trying to find any family and decedents of the late Levy and Pessa
|(Hersen) SEGAL. I have received information that Levy was HORLOGICAL this
|is a French word and I don't know the meaning but would like to if anyone
|knows it. Levy SEGAL was born in 1866 in Iasi, Romania. He settled in
|Paris, France in 1891 and he and his wife had 7 children. I would like
|to contact any family members of Levy & Pessa's family. Levy and my
|grandfather Nathan were brothers.
|
|Thank you so much,
|Lois Segal Friedman
|Bubylu@aol.com
|Delray Beach, Florida
|Sender: Bubylu@aol.com


JewishGen Discussion Group #JewishGen Re: Decedents of Levy & Hessa SEGAL (France) #general

Eric Svirskis
 

Is it possible that they meant "Horological"? If I recall correctly the
Horologists are watchmakers. Just a thought depending upon the context of
the term.

Eric Svirskis, Melbourne, Australia.

svire@melbpc.org.au
Interested in: FLEXER, GANTOVNIK, OKUN, MUSZKATBLAT, SRAGOWITZ, SVIRSKIS or
SWIRSKY (Panevesz/Panecevysz), & ZILBERMAN (Widze/Vidzy).

|-----Original Message-----
|From: Bubylu@aol.com [mailto:Bubylu@aol.com]
|Sent: Friday, 15 December 2006 10:05 p.m.
|To: JewishGen Discussion Group
|Subject: Decedents of Levy & Hessa SEGAL (France)
|

|Good morning,
|
|I am trying to find any family and decedents of the late Levy and Pessa
|(Hersen) SEGAL. I have received information that Levy was HORLOGICAL this
|is a French word and I don't know the meaning but would like to if anyone
|knows it. Levy SEGAL was born in 1866 in Iasi, Romania. He settled in
|Paris, France in 1891 and he and his wife had 7 children. I would like
|to contact any family members of Levy & Pessa's family. Levy and my
|grandfather Nathan were brothers.
|
|Thank you so much,
|Lois Segal Friedman
|Bubylu@aol.com
|Delray Beach, Florida
|Sender: Bubylu@aol.com


Schkolnik from Repky Chernigov Ukraine #ukraine

Roger Scholl <nhiceclimb@...>
 

Hi,

I am searching for the Schkolnik or Schkolukov families >from Repky Chernigov
Ukraine. Abram Schkolukov emigrated to NYC in 1911 and Gittel Schkolnik in
1912. She left a sister Chana Schkolnik in Repky. Gittel passed away in New
Haven Connecticut in 1970 and Abram dies in Coral Gables Florida in 1963.
Abram and Gittel where married before he left the Ukraine. They had a son
Milton and daughter Sophie in 1913 and 1915. he changed his name to Albert A
Scholl in 1916 when he was naturlaized. They divorced in 1921 and he
remarried in 1923 to Helen O'Connor in West Haven Connecticut. They had 3
children. Morton, Leonard, and Roger.

Can anyone help find other relatives or information >from the Ukraine?

thank you,

Roger Scholl
nhiceclimb@hotmail.com


Ukraine SIG #Ukraine Schkolnik from Repky Chernigov Ukraine #ukraine

Roger Scholl <nhiceclimb@...>
 

Hi,

I am searching for the Schkolnik or Schkolukov families >from Repky Chernigov
Ukraine. Abram Schkolukov emigrated to NYC in 1911 and Gittel Schkolnik in
1912. She left a sister Chana Schkolnik in Repky. Gittel passed away in New
Haven Connecticut in 1970 and Abram dies in Coral Gables Florida in 1963.
Abram and Gittel where married before he left the Ukraine. They had a son
Milton and daughter Sophie in 1913 and 1915. he changed his name to Albert A
Scholl in 1916 when he was naturlaized. They divorced in 1921 and he
remarried in 1923 to Helen O'Connor in West Haven Connecticut. They had 3
children. Morton, Leonard, and Roger.

Can anyone help find other relatives or information >from the Ukraine?

thank you,

Roger Scholl
nhiceclimb@hotmail.com


CBS "60 Mins" Show Sunday #general

Mary B
 

On Sunday, December 17th at 7 PM, CBS “60 MINUTES” will air a story on
the archive located in the German town of Bad Arolsen. Unfortunately we
can't see it here down under. Here is a link:

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/1998/07/08/60minutes/main13502.shtml

Mary Blumenstein
Melbourne, Australia

Researching: BAUM/Svidnik, Satoraljaujhely, Hungary. BERNER/KATZ/
Beregovo,Ukraine.BLUMENSTEIN/IvanoFrankovsk,Ukraine.GOLDFARB/MONCIASZ
Parczew,Poland.HELLINGER/Michalovce,Kosice,Slovakia.NEUMAN/NEUMANN/
Kvakovce,Michalovce, Slovakia


JewishGen Discussion Group #JewishGen CBS "60 Mins" Show Sunday #general

Mary B
 

On Sunday, December 17th at 7 PM, CBS “60 MINUTES” will air a story on
the archive located in the German town of Bad Arolsen. Unfortunately we
can't see it here down under. Here is a link:

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/1998/07/08/60minutes/main13502.shtml

Mary Blumenstein
Melbourne, Australia

Researching: BAUM/Svidnik, Satoraljaujhely, Hungary. BERNER/KATZ/
Beregovo,Ukraine.BLUMENSTEIN/IvanoFrankovsk,Ukraine.GOLDFARB/MONCIASZ
Parczew,Poland.HELLINGER/Michalovce,Kosice,Slovakia.NEUMAN/NEUMANN/
Kvakovce,Michalovce, Slovakia


Polish translation needed #general

Lisa Bracco <lisa5bracco4@...>
 

Dear Genners,

I need a document translated >from Polish into English. It is the birth
certificate of Moszk Leib GLOWACZ and can be found at:

http://data.jewishgen.org/viewmate/ALL/viewmateview.asp?key=9102

I would like to know the date or, at least year, he was born. This document
was registered in 1859, but I believe he was born c. 1851.

Also, I would be very interested in the ages of his parents in order to get
an idea of when they were born. Their names are Nochim Herszk Joskowicz
Glowacz and Golda Moszkowna Glowacz.

If Nochim's occupation is listed, this would also be nice to know.

As always, thank you so much for your help. I greatly appreciate it.

Happy Chanukah to all!!

Lisa (Glowacz) Bracco


JewishGen Discussion Group #JewishGen Polish translation needed #general

Lisa Bracco <lisa5bracco4@...>
 

Dear Genners,

I need a document translated >from Polish into English. It is the birth
certificate of Moszk Leib GLOWACZ and can be found at:

http://data.jewishgen.org/viewmate/ALL/viewmateview.asp?key=9102

I would like to know the date or, at least year, he was born. This document
was registered in 1859, but I believe he was born c. 1851.

Also, I would be very interested in the ages of his parents in order to get
an idea of when they were born. Their names are Nochim Herszk Joskowicz
Glowacz and Golda Moszkowna Glowacz.

If Nochim's occupation is listed, this would also be nice to know.

As always, thank you so much for your help. I greatly appreciate it.

Happy Chanukah to all!!

Lisa (Glowacz) Bracco


Re: LAUER=LEVI? #general

Roberlie Lachance <roberlie@...>
 

Possibly Bubbe for grandmother?

I doubt that it says "baby" (in english). but there are various nicknames
like ] "baba" and "bebe" (like the english "babs" or "babe"), which may sound
like the word "baby" but are (as in the case of a 78-year-old) definitely
not the same.


....... tom klein, toronto

Celia Male <celiamale@yahoo.com> wrote:

There are 21 LAUER buried in Vienna - most appear to be of Galician
origin.
Were I there, I would look at some of the graves for clues.

[snip!]
LAUER Baby age 78!!! buried 23.05.1923 Zentralfriedhof Gate 1 52-21-7


JewishGen Discussion Group #JewishGen Re: Re: LAUER=LEVI? #general

Roberlie Lachance <roberlie@...>
 

Possibly Bubbe for grandmother?

I doubt that it says "baby" (in english). but there are various nicknames
like ] "baba" and "bebe" (like the english "babs" or "babe"), which may sound
like the word "baby" but are (as in the case of a 78-year-old) definitely
not the same.


....... tom klein, toronto

Celia Male <celiamale@yahoo.com> wrote:

There are 21 LAUER buried in Vienna - most appear to be of Galician
origin.
Were I there, I would look at some of the graves for clues.

[snip!]
LAUER Baby age 78!!! buried 23.05.1923 Zentralfriedhof Gate 1 52-21-7


Re: LAUER=LEVI? #general

Stan Goodman <SPAM_FOILER@...>
 

On Fri, 15 Dec 2006 16:55:12 UTC, MBernet@aol.com said:

Were the Lauers Levites?

Michael Bernet, New York
For what it's worth, I have LAUER cousins in my tree, and they are not
Levites. It's my understanding (>from a converation with a German of that
name -- I don't speak German) that the name means "Tanner". Specifically,
that it is derived >from "Lohgerber", where the "Gerber" part is "Tanner" and
the prefix refers to tanbark. And I have assumed that the surname of that
part of my tree indicates an ancestor who was a tanner. So no levitical
connection.

Stan Goodman, Qiryat Tiv'on, Israel

Searching:
NEACHOWICZ/NOACHOWICZ, NEJMAN/NAJMAN, SURALSKI: Lomza Gubernia
ISMACH: Lomza Gubernia, Galicia, and Ukraina
HERTANU, ABRAMOVICI, LAUER: Dorohoi District, Romania
GRISARU, VATARU: Iasi, Dorohoi, and Mileanca, Romania

See my interactive family tree (requires Java 1.1.6 or better). the URL is:
http://www.hashkedim.com

For reasons connected with anti-spam/junk security, the return address is
not valid. To communicate with me, please visit my website (see the URL
above -- no Java required for this purpose) and fill in the email form
there.


JewishGen Discussion Group #JewishGen Re: LAUER=LEVI? #general

Stan Goodman <SPAM_FOILER@...>
 

On Fri, 15 Dec 2006 16:55:12 UTC, MBernet@aol.com said:

Were the Lauers Levites?

Michael Bernet, New York
For what it's worth, I have LAUER cousins in my tree, and they are not
Levites. It's my understanding (>from a converation with a German of that
name -- I don't speak German) that the name means "Tanner". Specifically,
that it is derived >from "Lohgerber", where the "Gerber" part is "Tanner" and
the prefix refers to tanbark. And I have assumed that the surname of that
part of my tree indicates an ancestor who was a tanner. So no levitical
connection.

Stan Goodman, Qiryat Tiv'on, Israel

Searching:
NEACHOWICZ/NOACHOWICZ, NEJMAN/NAJMAN, SURALSKI: Lomza Gubernia
ISMACH: Lomza Gubernia, Galicia, and Ukraina
HERTANU, ABRAMOVICI, LAUER: Dorohoi District, Romania
GRISARU, VATARU: Iasi, Dorohoi, and Mileanca, Romania

See my interactive family tree (requires Java 1.1.6 or better). the URL is:
http://www.hashkedim.com

For reasons connected with anti-spam/junk security, the return address is
not valid. To communicate with me, please visit my website (see the URL
above -- no Java required for this purpose) and fill in the email form
there.


Death of Moshe Bernstein (forward of announcement) #belarus

Sfingold
 

I'm forwarding this message with permission from
Steve Morse. (Thanks to Dave Fox for bringing this to
our attention.)

FROM: steve@StephenMorse.org
Tue Dec 12, 2006 12:33 pm (PST)

I recently received the following email >from Sarit
Tinari informing me of the passing of Moshe Bernstein.
She asked me to share this with the group. Moshe was
one of the contributors to the Kartuz Bereza yizkor
book, and a translated copy of his poem >from the
yizkor book is shown at the end of the message.
Sarit's father was one of the editors of the book and
Sarit was the publisher.

-- Steve Morse, San Francisco

==================================

Hi Steve

I am writing you to let you know that on Friday
December 8 - a dear man of Kartuz Breze passed away
in Tel Aviv - the gifted painter and Yiddish Poet
Moshe Bernstein

He was a very colorful man - even though he was always
wearing black - he was a huge man - even thou he was
very short (not a "dwarf - just a very short man ) -
he was always like a child - even though he has
children and grandchildren of his own - his all
being was a reflection of the lost shtetels - the lost
life of the Jews - even though he was in the heart of
the Bohemian artists' life of Tel Aviv - in the 50's -
70's

A man who lost all his family in the war in Bereza -
and even though he had a new family and a wonderful
wife - he was always alone

And he died - indeed at the age of 88 (he was my
father's friend >from school and his neighbour next
door) - but still it's a big loss - and for me -
as a child - he was eternal - with his unique look of
black close, big silver neckless , very long white
hair and a moustache - very sensitive, likes to lough
and cry and drink - and he loved Jewish holidays and
Jewish life and Hazanut and Yiddish - but he was
secular and he asked to have a secular funeral - which
he did - in a Kibbutz where his wife and one of their
daughters live

If you want Steve - tell it to the people who still
care about this past

Also if you want - you can add the poem he wrote on
page 177 in the book Breze it is called - Longing
to Breze

all the best Sarit

==========================================
*
*Bereza Nostalgias by Moshe Bernshtein
dedicated to Bereza Kartuzka

My golden Bereza consumed in flames,
You return to me in solitary wondering
With the affection that I keep for my missing mother,
Taken on bloodstained wings.

I see your face Bereza, in gray dawns,
In the happiness and sadness of your curved streets
You didn't lose a minimum of your image
The same melody sounds in my hearings

Here this the market, the synagogue, the public
bathroom,
The main road like a docile and nice tape
Here is my house, the orchard,
It filled the air with its aroma of apples and
flowers.

The Jews, I knew them by their names and them to me
The mischievous children, reflected in their eyes
dreams and marvels
We went for a walk together,
Toward the river, toward the forest

And these greeted us
Grandparents and grandmothers sat down next to the
threshold
Telling exaggerated distant passed years
Being young came out to have a good time.

Who died and who was born
And during the night when Bereza collapses in the
silence,
Even very late couples went for a walk down the street
But they are as drunk

It breaks the silence a melody of those that study
Talmud.
I would like to continue telling a lot about that
legend
How the Jews lived lived, they lived and they died
Only to remember them, is very painful, I should
conclude
Because it is difficult to tell in a single time
The destruction.

(Year 1973)


Some additional info >from Steve:

To order the Yizkor book mentioned above, go to:

http://stevemorse.org/bereza-and-antopol

and click on the "Yizkor Book" link in the top right
square. That contains a scan of all the pages of the
original Hebrew book along with the English
translation both in html format (for screen display)
and MS-Word format (for printing).

-- Steve


Gelt, guilt, tax deductions, any excuse will do! #belarus

Sfingold
 

It's that time of year. A season of light and
happiness and gelt. Have some extra gelt you'd like
to share with the JewishGen Belarus SIG? Go to
JewishGen-erosity Belarus page and contribute to a
project or the general fund.

Go to:
http://www.jewishgen.org/JewishGen-erosity/v_projectslist.asp?project_cat=1

Or maybe with a slip of the mind you aren't thinking
gelt but guilt--they sound so similar. Well, ease
your guilt and donate!

Go to:
http://www.jewishgen.org/JewishGen-erosity/v_projectslist.asp?project_cat=1

Or maybe you are starting to think about tax returns.
Donations to the SIG make a fine deduction!

Go to:
http://www.jewishgen.org/JewishGen-erosity/v_projectslist.asp?project_cat=1

With just a few clicks of the button you'll make a
difference in the world.

Thanks to all of you who donate in time, services,
and/or gelt. It's because of your help we can keep
working on SIG projects: finding, saving and sharing
information that will help researchers now and in the
future.

Happy holidays!

Sharon Fingold
co-coordinator JewishGen Belarus SIG
sfingold@sbcglobal.net


Belarus SIG #Belarus Death of Moshe Bernstein (forward of announcement) #belarus

Sfingold
 

I'm forwarding this message with permission from
Steve Morse. (Thanks to Dave Fox for bringing this to
our attention.)

FROM: steve@StephenMorse.org
Tue Dec 12, 2006 12:33 pm (PST)

I recently received the following email >from Sarit
Tinari informing me of the passing of Moshe Bernstein.
She asked me to share this with the group. Moshe was
one of the contributors to the Kartuz Bereza yizkor
book, and a translated copy of his poem >from the
yizkor book is shown at the end of the message.
Sarit's father was one of the editors of the book and
Sarit was the publisher.

-- Steve Morse, San Francisco

==================================

Hi Steve

I am writing you to let you know that on Friday
December 8 - a dear man of Kartuz Breze passed away
in Tel Aviv - the gifted painter and Yiddish Poet
Moshe Bernstein

He was a very colorful man - even though he was always
wearing black - he was a huge man - even thou he was
very short (not a "dwarf - just a very short man ) -
he was always like a child - even though he has
children and grandchildren of his own - his all
being was a reflection of the lost shtetels - the lost
life of the Jews - even though he was in the heart of
the Bohemian artists' life of Tel Aviv - in the 50's -
70's

A man who lost all his family in the war in Bereza -
and even though he had a new family and a wonderful
wife - he was always alone

And he died - indeed at the age of 88 (he was my
father's friend >from school and his neighbour next
door) - but still it's a big loss - and for me -
as a child - he was eternal - with his unique look of
black close, big silver neckless , very long white
hair and a moustache - very sensitive, likes to lough
and cry and drink - and he loved Jewish holidays and
Jewish life and Hazanut and Yiddish - but he was
secular and he asked to have a secular funeral - which
he did - in a Kibbutz where his wife and one of their
daughters live

If you want Steve - tell it to the people who still
care about this past

Also if you want - you can add the poem he wrote on
page 177 in the book Breze it is called - Longing
to Breze

all the best Sarit

==========================================
*
*Bereza Nostalgias by Moshe Bernshtein
dedicated to Bereza Kartuzka

My golden Bereza consumed in flames,
You return to me in solitary wondering
With the affection that I keep for my missing mother,
Taken on bloodstained wings.

I see your face Bereza, in gray dawns,
In the happiness and sadness of your curved streets
You didn't lose a minimum of your image
The same melody sounds in my hearings

Here this the market, the synagogue, the public
bathroom,
The main road like a docile and nice tape
Here is my house, the orchard,
It filled the air with its aroma of apples and
flowers.

The Jews, I knew them by their names and them to me
The mischievous children, reflected in their eyes
dreams and marvels
We went for a walk together,
Toward the river, toward the forest

And these greeted us
Grandparents and grandmothers sat down next to the
threshold
Telling exaggerated distant passed years
Being young came out to have a good time.

Who died and who was born
And during the night when Bereza collapses in the
silence,
Even very late couples went for a walk down the street
But they are as drunk

It breaks the silence a melody of those that study
Talmud.
I would like to continue telling a lot about that
legend
How the Jews lived lived, they lived and they died
Only to remember them, is very painful, I should
conclude
Because it is difficult to tell in a single time
The destruction.

(Year 1973)


Some additional info >from Steve:

To order the Yizkor book mentioned above, go to:

http://stevemorse.org/bereza-and-antopol

and click on the "Yizkor Book" link in the top right
square. That contains a scan of all the pages of the
original Hebrew book along with the English
translation both in html format (for screen display)
and MS-Word format (for printing).

-- Steve


Belarus SIG #Belarus Gelt, guilt, tax deductions, any excuse will do! #belarus

Sfingold
 

It's that time of year. A season of light and
happiness and gelt. Have some extra gelt you'd like
to share with the JewishGen Belarus SIG? Go to
JewishGen-erosity Belarus page and contribute to a
project or the general fund.

Go to:
http://www.jewishgen.org/JewishGen-erosity/v_projectslist.asp?project_cat=1

Or maybe with a slip of the mind you aren't thinking
gelt but guilt--they sound so similar. Well, ease
your guilt and donate!

Go to:
http://www.jewishgen.org/JewishGen-erosity/v_projectslist.asp?project_cat=1

Or maybe you are starting to think about tax returns.
Donations to the SIG make a fine deduction!

Go to:
http://www.jewishgen.org/JewishGen-erosity/v_projectslist.asp?project_cat=1

With just a few clicks of the button you'll make a
difference in the world.

Thanks to all of you who donate in time, services,
and/or gelt. It's because of your help we can keep
working on SIG projects: finding, saving and sharing
information that will help researchers now and in the
future.

Happy holidays!

Sharon Fingold
co-coordinator JewishGen Belarus SIG
sfingold@sbcglobal.net


Re: The common name for Nesanajl #general

Robert Israel <israel@...>
 

Stan Goodman wrote:

More precisely, modern Israeli Hebrew has replaced the "th" sound
with "t". Yemenite pronunciation keeps it, I am told. The use of
"th" in English renderings of biblical names probably reflects the
actual pronunciation at some period of time.
I don't think so. The parallel letter in Arabic is also a simple "T". For
the "Th" to have got into European languages >from Hebrew, that would have
had to be the pronunciation in the Levant when Europeans started to
transliterate Biblical names/words >from Hebrew, e.g. when they became
Christians (which is not deep in antiquity. I suspect that the origin of the
"Th" lies in a failed effort to differentiate TAV >from TET (which should
indeed be differentiated, but not this way); Greek may well have tried to
assign its Theta to the TAV. Or the effort may have taken place later, in
Germany, which is presumably also the source of all the "J's" in
transliterated Hebrew, which by rights should be pronounced as "Y" rather
than as "Dzh -- unless you are also arguing that there was really a
Patriarch Dzha'aqov.
The transliterations came into English >from the Septuagint (the Greek
translation of the bible, starting in the third century BCE), which
rendered tav (or thav) as theta, via the Vulgate (Latin).

As for J, it would have been iota in Greek, I in Latin: a shift of the
sound of I (when used as a consonant) to something like our English J
sound in Latin and related languages occurred by the 6th century CE.
The introduction of the letter J for this sound didn't come until
about the 17th century. Germany had nothing to do with it, AFAIK.

Robert Israel israel@math.ubc.ca
Department of Mathematics http://www.math.ubc.ca/~israel
University of British Columbia Vancouver, BC, Canada


JewishGen Discussion Group #JewishGen Re: The common name for Nesanajl #general

Robert Israel <israel@...>
 

Stan Goodman wrote:

More precisely, modern Israeli Hebrew has replaced the "th" sound
with "t". Yemenite pronunciation keeps it, I am told. The use of
"th" in English renderings of biblical names probably reflects the
actual pronunciation at some period of time.
I don't think so. The parallel letter in Arabic is also a simple "T". For
the "Th" to have got into European languages >from Hebrew, that would have
had to be the pronunciation in the Levant when Europeans started to
transliterate Biblical names/words >from Hebrew, e.g. when they became
Christians (which is not deep in antiquity. I suspect that the origin of the
"Th" lies in a failed effort to differentiate TAV >from TET (which should
indeed be differentiated, but not this way); Greek may well have tried to
assign its Theta to the TAV. Or the effort may have taken place later, in
Germany, which is presumably also the source of all the "J's" in
transliterated Hebrew, which by rights should be pronounced as "Y" rather
than as "Dzh -- unless you are also arguing that there was really a
Patriarch Dzha'aqov.
The transliterations came into English >from the Septuagint (the Greek
translation of the bible, starting in the third century BCE), which
rendered tav (or thav) as theta, via the Vulgate (Latin).

As for J, it would have been iota in Greek, I in Latin: a shift of the
sound of I (when used as a consonant) to something like our English J
sound in Latin and related languages occurred by the 6th century CE.
The introduction of the letter J for this sound didn't come until
about the 17th century. Germany had nothing to do with it, AFAIK.

Robert Israel israel@math.ubc.ca
Department of Mathematics http://www.math.ubc.ca/~israel
University of British Columbia Vancouver, BC, Canada