Date   

Re: *Re: Surname TOTH #hungary

tom klein <h-sig@...>
 

I would like to disagree slightly with some of what tom venetianer said.

"Swabia" was, to quote the wikipedia article on "danube swabians", "a historic and liguistic region in germany", and further, "the danube swabians... is a collective term for germans who lived in the former kingdom of hungary, especially in the danube river valley." (as for cockroaches, the term is actually "sva'bboga'r", which is almost identical to the english term "german cockroach", which denotes a specific variety of the bug, rather than cockroaches in general.)

My father tells a story of being beaten once, while in the army, for referring to a certain officer's swabian ancestry. but i think the problem there was the irreverent nature of the reference to the officer's mother (whereas the swabian part was more or less factual). and luckily, the beating was not severe.

also, i would take issue with the word "gadzsi" (spellings vary), which i always thought was the somewhat derogatory gypsy (cziga'ny) name for non-gypsies. (here, again, wikipedia provides some information, in the article on "romani language", which traces the origin of the term to a punjabi word for civilian, gajja.) "cziga'ny" itself, on the other hand, was sometimes not used as a compliment.

we hardly ever used the term "ruszky" for russian but rather "orosz", except in jest, and i always thought that it was a loanword >from russian.

the other terms i find to be more outdated than derogatory, which may be the point that tom is making ("colored" is no longer as derogatory a term as it was 50 years ago), but i see more people with surnames like "toth", "racz", or even "gazsi", than were ever named "paddy" or "chief". i don't know if they were forced onto people, but it seems that many hungarian jews voluntarily "hungarianized" their names to ones like "toth" and "nemeth" and "szekely", etc.

for what it's worth, my grandmother even spoke a few words of to't, as she put it, >from having lived in that region.


....... tom klein

ps. i do not mean to endorse or otherwise promote the use of wikipedia. it is entirely coincidental that i found relevant material at that site, but it's easy to search and quite useful.

Tom Venetianer <tom.vene@uol.com.br> wrote:

There is a bit of a confusion about certain Hungarian ethnic expressions in use mainly in the 19th century and early 20th, such as TO'T (Slovak), RA'C (Serbian), OLA'H (Romanian), SV'AB (Hungarian German, which by the way is the Hungarian word for cockroach), GA'DZSI (gypsy), VLAH (Bosnian), RUSZKY (Russian) and so on.

They all were kind of pejorative, at least demeaning, much like disparaging expressions such as PATTY, INJUN, and GRINGO are in the US. And when somebody took such designation as a surname, mainly Jews, it somehow meant that it was forced on the person.


Hungary SIG #Hungary Re: *Re: Surname TOTH #hungary

tom klein <h-sig@...>
 

I would like to disagree slightly with some of what tom venetianer said.

"Swabia" was, to quote the wikipedia article on "danube swabians", "a historic and liguistic region in germany", and further, "the danube swabians... is a collective term for germans who lived in the former kingdom of hungary, especially in the danube river valley." (as for cockroaches, the term is actually "sva'bboga'r", which is almost identical to the english term "german cockroach", which denotes a specific variety of the bug, rather than cockroaches in general.)

My father tells a story of being beaten once, while in the army, for referring to a certain officer's swabian ancestry. but i think the problem there was the irreverent nature of the reference to the officer's mother (whereas the swabian part was more or less factual). and luckily, the beating was not severe.

also, i would take issue with the word "gadzsi" (spellings vary), which i always thought was the somewhat derogatory gypsy (cziga'ny) name for non-gypsies. (here, again, wikipedia provides some information, in the article on "romani language", which traces the origin of the term to a punjabi word for civilian, gajja.) "cziga'ny" itself, on the other hand, was sometimes not used as a compliment.

we hardly ever used the term "ruszky" for russian but rather "orosz", except in jest, and i always thought that it was a loanword >from russian.

the other terms i find to be more outdated than derogatory, which may be the point that tom is making ("colored" is no longer as derogatory a term as it was 50 years ago), but i see more people with surnames like "toth", "racz", or even "gazsi", than were ever named "paddy" or "chief". i don't know if they were forced onto people, but it seems that many hungarian jews voluntarily "hungarianized" their names to ones like "toth" and "nemeth" and "szekely", etc.

for what it's worth, my grandmother even spoke a few words of to't, as she put it, >from having lived in that region.


....... tom klein

ps. i do not mean to endorse or otherwise promote the use of wikipedia. it is entirely coincidental that i found relevant material at that site, but it's easy to search and quite useful.

Tom Venetianer <tom.vene@uol.com.br> wrote:

There is a bit of a confusion about certain Hungarian ethnic expressions in use mainly in the 19th century and early 20th, such as TO'T (Slovak), RA'C (Serbian), OLA'H (Romanian), SV'AB (Hungarian German, which by the way is the Hungarian word for cockroach), GA'DZSI (gypsy), VLAH (Bosnian), RUSZKY (Russian) and so on.

They all were kind of pejorative, at least demeaning, much like disparaging expressions such as PATTY, INJUN, and GRINGO are in the US. And when somebody took such designation as a surname, mainly Jews, it somehow meant that it was forced on the person.


Re: TOTH #hungary

kalman@...
 

Dear Tom,

some minor remarks. As opposed to TO'TH, RA'C and OLA'H,
the names SV'AB, GA'DZSI, VLAH and RUSZKY are extremely rare names in
Hungary (if they are used at all).

Please also note that SVA'B is not "Hungarian German": it refers to a
specific German - and not Hungarian - group of Germans, and most of
Hungarian Germans come >from this group. And there are other German groups
whose presence in Hungary is preserved in the name SZA'SZ,
meaning "Saxon" or "Saxonian". The Hungarian word for cockroach is
"Sva'bbogar", swabish bug.

GADZSI means non-gipsy (and not gipsy).

VLAH is a more archaic form of OLA'H, and the stem of the word has
to do with present day Hungarian OLASz meaning Italian. But VLAH have
never meant Bosnian. (That would be BOSNYA'K.)


Gyorgy C. Kalman


Subject: *Re: Surname TOTH
From: Tom Venetianer <tom.vene@uol.com.br>
Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2006 17:16:48 -0300
X-Message-Number: 1

Dear all,

There is a bit of a confusion about certain Hungarian ethnic expressions
in use mainly in the 19th century and early 20th, such as TO'T (Slovak),
RA'C (Serbian), OLA'H (Romanian), SV'AB (Hungarian German, which by the
way is the Hungarian word for cockroach), GA'DZSI (gypsy), VLAH (Bosnian),
RUSZKY (Russian) and so on.

They all were kind of pejorative, at least demeaning, much like
disparaging expressions such as PATTY, INJUN, and GRINGO are in the US.
And when somebody took such designation as a surname, mainly Jews, it
somehow meant that it was forced on the person.

Regards
Tom


Hungary SIG #Hungary Re: TOTH #hungary

kalman@...
 

Dear Tom,

some minor remarks. As opposed to TO'TH, RA'C and OLA'H,
the names SV'AB, GA'DZSI, VLAH and RUSZKY are extremely rare names in
Hungary (if they are used at all).

Please also note that SVA'B is not "Hungarian German": it refers to a
specific German - and not Hungarian - group of Germans, and most of
Hungarian Germans come >from this group. And there are other German groups
whose presence in Hungary is preserved in the name SZA'SZ,
meaning "Saxon" or "Saxonian". The Hungarian word for cockroach is
"Sva'bbogar", swabish bug.

GADZSI means non-gipsy (and not gipsy).

VLAH is a more archaic form of OLA'H, and the stem of the word has
to do with present day Hungarian OLASz meaning Italian. But VLAH have
never meant Bosnian. (That would be BOSNYA'K.)


Gyorgy C. Kalman


Subject: *Re: Surname TOTH
From: Tom Venetianer <tom.vene@uol.com.br>
Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2006 17:16:48 -0300
X-Message-Number: 1

Dear all,

There is a bit of a confusion about certain Hungarian ethnic expressions
in use mainly in the 19th century and early 20th, such as TO'T (Slovak),
RA'C (Serbian), OLA'H (Romanian), SV'AB (Hungarian German, which by the
way is the Hungarian word for cockroach), GA'DZSI (gypsy), VLAH (Bosnian),
RUSZKY (Russian) and so on.

They all were kind of pejorative, at least demeaning, much like
disparaging expressions such as PATTY, INJUN, and GRINGO are in the US.
And when somebody took such designation as a surname, mainly Jews, it
somehow meant that it was forced on the person.

Regards
Tom


Seeking DAUST family descendants #germany

Martin Fischer
 

I am seeking descendants of the following DAUST family siblings:
Mollie Daust TISCHLER of Berlin, Germany (b. about March 1885 in St. Louis,
Missouri., USA)

Fannie Daust PRESCH of Berlin, Germany (b. about Sept. 1886 in St. Louis,
Mo., USA)

Herbert DAUST of St. Louis, Mo. (1892-1970)

Martin Fischer Oak Park, Illinois, USA

The Fischer and Levin family history Web site is at:
http://mefischer1.home.comcast.net/


German SIG #Germany Seeking DAUST family descendants #germany

Martin Fischer
 

I am seeking descendants of the following DAUST family siblings:
Mollie Daust TISCHLER of Berlin, Germany (b. about March 1885 in St. Louis,
Missouri., USA)

Fannie Daust PRESCH of Berlin, Germany (b. about Sept. 1886 in St. Louis,
Mo., USA)

Herbert DAUST of St. Louis, Mo. (1892-1970)

Martin Fischer Oak Park, Illinois, USA

The Fischer and Levin family history Web site is at:
http://mefischer1.home.comcast.net/


Mount Zion Cemetery database #general

Sharon R. Korn <s.r.korn@...>
 

Thanks to Steve Lasky for announcing the Mount Zion Cemetery online
database. It is a terrific resource for finding burials. Having checked
some, I would just like to suggest that people not rely too much on the
exact date of death listed. It can be either the date of burial or, as in
one listed as 1800, an obvious typographical error. Nevertheless, it is
sure to be very useful.

Sharon Korn
San Diego, CA


JewishGen Discussion Group #JewishGen Mount Zion Cemetery database #general

Sharon R. Korn <s.r.korn@...>
 

Thanks to Steve Lasky for announcing the Mount Zion Cemetery online
database. It is a terrific resource for finding burials. Having checked
some, I would just like to suggest that people not rely too much on the
exact date of death listed. It can be either the date of burial or, as in
one listed as 1800, an obvious typographical error. Nevertheless, it is
sure to be very useful.

Sharon Korn
San Diego, CA


DU RUPS / Convert, Neuchatel, Switzerland, 14th century #general

Justin Kirk Houser <jkhouser84@...>
 

Good morning, everyone,

I first want to thank everyone for the generous responses to my query on
translating Hebrew cemetery inscriptions in Clinton County, PA.

In my own personal research, I have traced one of my ancestral lines back
to an individual named Guillaume DU RUPS, born between 1350 and 1400 in
Canton Neuchatel, Switzerland. He was probably born at Auvernier and later
lived at La Sagne. Guillaume had the surname or title "Convert" appended
to his name. He was married to Jehanne Trost. When his daughter,
Perronette du Rups Convert (born ca. 1420) married Michele Barbier of
Valangin, he, too, took her surname Convert. The family continued as
Convert, eventually becoming Conver, and finally Confer and Confair in America.

The information on this family came >from records at La Sagne, kept by one
M. Ferrari, according to a cousin who went there and obtained what she
could, not being expert in genealogical research. The research was done
for one Samuel Monvert, an 18th century local notable, who changed the
spelling of his name >from Convert to Monvert.

My question: Why would Guillaume du Rups have been called Convert? My
research shows that there were Jewish communities in Neuchatel in the 12th
and 13th centuries. Could Guillaume have been of Jewish descent, and been
called "Convert" when he converted to the Christian faith? His descendants
became involved with local Roman Catholic Church activities, eventually
converting to the Protestant Church (Reformed) in the 1530s.

I would appreciate any insights >from anyone who has researched in this
area, or knows of any reason why the suffix Convert may have been given to
Guillaume du Rups and carried by his descendants as a surname.

Justin

Justin K. Houser
Bellefonte, PA USA


JewishGen Discussion Group #JewishGen DU RUPS / Convert, Neuchatel, Switzerland, 14th century #general

Justin Kirk Houser <jkhouser84@...>
 

Good morning, everyone,

I first want to thank everyone for the generous responses to my query on
translating Hebrew cemetery inscriptions in Clinton County, PA.

In my own personal research, I have traced one of my ancestral lines back
to an individual named Guillaume DU RUPS, born between 1350 and 1400 in
Canton Neuchatel, Switzerland. He was probably born at Auvernier and later
lived at La Sagne. Guillaume had the surname or title "Convert" appended
to his name. He was married to Jehanne Trost. When his daughter,
Perronette du Rups Convert (born ca. 1420) married Michele Barbier of
Valangin, he, too, took her surname Convert. The family continued as
Convert, eventually becoming Conver, and finally Confer and Confair in America.

The information on this family came >from records at La Sagne, kept by one
M. Ferrari, according to a cousin who went there and obtained what she
could, not being expert in genealogical research. The research was done
for one Samuel Monvert, an 18th century local notable, who changed the
spelling of his name >from Convert to Monvert.

My question: Why would Guillaume du Rups have been called Convert? My
research shows that there were Jewish communities in Neuchatel in the 12th
and 13th centuries. Could Guillaume have been of Jewish descent, and been
called "Convert" when he converted to the Christian faith? His descendants
became involved with local Roman Catholic Church activities, eventually
converting to the Protestant Church (Reformed) in the 1530s.

I would appreciate any insights >from anyone who has researched in this
area, or knows of any reason why the suffix Convert may have been given to
Guillaume du Rups and carried by his descendants as a surname.

Justin

Justin K. Houser
Bellefonte, PA USA


Searching For Michael BERNSTEIN #general

stephen field
 

My name is Stephen Field. My E mail address is: stemarfie@yahoo.com

I am searching for Michael BERNSTEIN. We grew up together in Roxbury,
Massachusetts during the 40's, 50's and 60's. He lived at 4xx Walnut Avenue.
I lived at 4xx Walnut Avenue (next door). We played ball at the field across
from our buildings.
We both went to Roxbury Memorial High School in Roxbury. We had a lot of friends
on Iffley Road, and Montebello Road.

If you know where he is, please send me his street address, city and town an
state, telephone number and his E mail address, or sent this letter to him, and
maybe he will contact me. I hope to hear >from some one that knows him or
Michael himself.

Thank you. Sincerely,
Stephen Field

MODERATOR NOTE: Please respond privately


JewishGen Discussion Group #JewishGen Searching For Michael BERNSTEIN #general

stephen field
 

My name is Stephen Field. My E mail address is: stemarfie@yahoo.com

I am searching for Michael BERNSTEIN. We grew up together in Roxbury,
Massachusetts during the 40's, 50's and 60's. He lived at 4xx Walnut Avenue.
I lived at 4xx Walnut Avenue (next door). We played ball at the field across
from our buildings.
We both went to Roxbury Memorial High School in Roxbury. We had a lot of friends
on Iffley Road, and Montebello Road.

If you know where he is, please send me his street address, city and town an
state, telephone number and his E mail address, or sent this letter to him, and
maybe he will contact me. I hope to hear >from some one that knows him or
Michael himself.

Thank you. Sincerely,
Stephen Field

MODERATOR NOTE: Please respond privately


help on 1890, 1900 and 1910 census HYMOFF and WASSERZUG at 29 Poplar St, Boston #general

Jenni Hymoff Koeppel
 

Hello again helpful fellow Genners:

we finally got my ggp's marriage application and on it, it says they
(Adeline Wasserzug and Israel Hymoff) were living at 29 Poplar St in Boston
in 1903. Since I had them at a totally different address in 1900, I'd
really appreciate somebody checking the 1890, 1900 and 1910 census for
Boston for that Poplar Street address to see who lived there then, and we
can see if there is any connection. We are checking all possibilities
because the surnames keep changing. So far it seems they swam into the US
at no specific place between 1879 and 1889 and suddenly appeared again in
1900.

If you could also check the 1890 census for WASSERZUG, we might find Adeline
again.

I live in Spain and have no possibility to visit a US library with access
to that data.

Thanks in advance for your help!

Jenni Hymoff
Canary Islands, Spain
Researching HYMOFF and KADETSKY in Poland
REDLER and KRAVETSKY in Ukraine

MODERATOR NOTE: Please respond privately


JewishGen Discussion Group #JewishGen help on 1890, 1900 and 1910 census HYMOFF and WASSERZUG at 29 Poplar St, Boston #general

Jenni Hymoff Koeppel
 

Hello again helpful fellow Genners:

we finally got my ggp's marriage application and on it, it says they
(Adeline Wasserzug and Israel Hymoff) were living at 29 Poplar St in Boston
in 1903. Since I had them at a totally different address in 1900, I'd
really appreciate somebody checking the 1890, 1900 and 1910 census for
Boston for that Poplar Street address to see who lived there then, and we
can see if there is any connection. We are checking all possibilities
because the surnames keep changing. So far it seems they swam into the US
at no specific place between 1879 and 1889 and suddenly appeared again in
1900.

If you could also check the 1890 census for WASSERZUG, we might find Adeline
again.

I live in Spain and have no possibility to visit a US library with access
to that data.

Thanks in advance for your help!

Jenni Hymoff
Canary Islands, Spain
Researching HYMOFF and KADETSKY in Poland
REDLER and KRAVETSKY in Ukraine

MODERATOR NOTE: Please respond privately


1920 records in Zareby Koscielne?? #general

Stan Goodman <SPAM_FOILER@...>
 

I am seeing in JRI-PL indices for Zareby Koscielne records as late as 1920.
Does this mean that the 100-year (if I remember correctly) waiting period
before release of archives has been changed? Or are these typos? The archive
itself is undated.

Stan Goodman, Qiryat Tiv'on, Israel

Searching:
NEACHOWICZ/NOACHOWICZ, NEJMAN/NAJMAN, SURALSKI: Lomza Gubernia
ISMACH: Lomza Gubernia, Galicia, and Ukraina
HERTANU, ABRAMOVICI, LAUER: Dorohoi District, Romania
GRISARU, VATARU: Iasi, Dorohoi, and Mileanca, Romania

See my interactive family tree (requires Java 1.1.6 or better). the URL is:
http://www.hashkedim.com

For reasons connected with anti-spam/junk security, the return address is
not valid. To communicate with me, please visit my website (see the URL
above -- no Java required for this purpose) and fill in the email form there.


JewishGen Discussion Group #JewishGen 1920 records in Zareby Koscielne?? #general

Stan Goodman <SPAM_FOILER@...>
 

I am seeing in JRI-PL indices for Zareby Koscielne records as late as 1920.
Does this mean that the 100-year (if I remember correctly) waiting period
before release of archives has been changed? Or are these typos? The archive
itself is undated.

Stan Goodman, Qiryat Tiv'on, Israel

Searching:
NEACHOWICZ/NOACHOWICZ, NEJMAN/NAJMAN, SURALSKI: Lomza Gubernia
ISMACH: Lomza Gubernia, Galicia, and Ukraina
HERTANU, ABRAMOVICI, LAUER: Dorohoi District, Romania
GRISARU, VATARU: Iasi, Dorohoi, and Mileanca, Romania

See my interactive family tree (requires Java 1.1.6 or better). the URL is:
http://www.hashkedim.com

For reasons connected with anti-spam/junk security, the return address is
not valid. To communicate with me, please visit my website (see the URL
above -- no Java required for this purpose) and fill in the email form there.


Searching BORNSTEIN FLORMAN #general

Rss1130@...
 

I am searching for relatives of Zeev and Mindl BORSNSTEIN (BORNSHTEIN). Zeev
and Mindl were submitters to Morshe and Khaim FLORMAN. I am looking for the
connection between Khaim and Moshe FLORMAN and Nuchem and Israel FLORMAN.

Richard FLORMAN SIEGEL
(mailto:rss1130@aol.com)

MODERATOR NOTE: Please respond privately


JewishGen Discussion Group #JewishGen Searching BORNSTEIN FLORMAN #general

Rss1130@...
 

I am searching for relatives of Zeev and Mindl BORSNSTEIN (BORNSHTEIN). Zeev
and Mindl were submitters to Morshe and Khaim FLORMAN. I am looking for the
connection between Khaim and Moshe FLORMAN and Nuchem and Israel FLORMAN.

Richard FLORMAN SIEGEL
(mailto:rss1130@aol.com)

MODERATOR NOTE: Please respond privately


Attn genner searching ZDROJEWER/ZDROJEWSKI #general

Rachelle Berliner <rlberliner@...>
 

I may have some information for you >from Yad Vashem in response to an
inquiry I sent.

Please contact me privately.

Sincerely,
Rachelle Berliner
Savannah, GA
rlberliner@comcast.net


JewishGen Discussion Group #JewishGen Attn genner searching ZDROJEWER/ZDROJEWSKI #general

Rachelle Berliner <rlberliner@...>
 

I may have some information for you >from Yad Vashem in response to an
inquiry I sent.

Please contact me privately.

Sincerely,
Rachelle Berliner
Savannah, GA
rlberliner@comcast.net