Dear JewishGen members,

I have been reading all the postings and trying to
hold back. But I can't any longer. I do want to say
that I am not affiliated with JewishGen or never held
a position. I am just a regular person still trying to
find all his family.

The original documents for my family were stolen from
a retirement home when my Aunt died. >from the little I
was able to start with, I spent a year finding
nothing. I don't mean afterwork searches, I mean every
day all day long. Then I found matching names on a
Shetl site and finally matching pictures and then a
family tree on JewishGen. lt ended up joining 3 sets
of families in 3 countries to ours, all of which were
not aware of the connection. Everyone assumed we
perished or they perished in the Holocaust.

Many or most of you know the excitement and joy when
you find a relative, and you remember their joy as
well. Time stops and you become family as if all the
years disappeared.

What is that joy worth? What is that family bond
worth? Is it worth losing all this over one person who
is angry with his mother, or sister, or uncle and
wants to punish his entire family. I don't feel that
way. And it is not what I feel family is all about.

This week of all weeks, we have to realize that all
this fear is not worth it. If someone wants to steal
your identity, they don't need a family tree, they can
pay $9.95 to get your mother's name and your unlisted
phone number. Or pay for a high dollar genealogy
service and find out more than you want to know. This
is not a reason to keep your children and your
children's children >from finding out about their
ancestors. To quote a simple adage, one bad apple may
ruin the barrel, but only if you decide to leave it
in. Just leave a blank for those who don't want to be
part of their family, and let your good grandchildren
unite with those who want to be family.

I remember when I sent a picture to a lost relative
of his father in 1920s. He was on the way to work. His
wife got the email and called him and he returned home
and called me immediately >from Israel. The sound of
his excitement, a lost family found, this is what
makes life worth living. And this is where a whole new
story begins.

Sincerely,
Yehudah BenShlomo
U.S.A.

Dear JewishGen members,

I have been reading all the postings and trying to
hold back. But I can't any longer. I do want to say
that I am not affiliated with JewishGen or never held
a position. I am just a regular person still trying to
find all his family.

The original documents for my family were stolen from
a retirement home when my Aunt died. >from the little I
was able to start with, I spent a year finding
nothing. I don't mean afterwork searches, I mean every
day all day long. Then I found matching names on a
Shetl site and finally matching pictures and then a
family tree on JewishGen. lt ended up joining 3 sets
of families in 3 countries to ours, all of which were
not aware of the connection. Everyone assumed we
perished or they perished in the Holocaust.

Many or most of you know the excitement and joy when
you find a relative, and you remember their joy as
well. Time stops and you become family as if all the
years disappeared.

What is that joy worth? What is that family bond
worth? Is it worth losing all this over one person who
is angry with his mother, or sister, or uncle and
wants to punish his entire family. I don't feel that
way. And it is not what I feel family is all about.

This week of all weeks, we have to realize that all
this fear is not worth it. If someone wants to steal
your identity, they don't need a family tree, they can
pay $9.95 to get your mother's name and your unlisted
phone number. Or pay for a high dollar genealogy
service and find out more than you want to know. This
is not a reason to keep your children and your
children's children >from finding out about their
ancestors. To quote a simple adage, one bad apple may
ruin the barrel, but only if you decide to leave it
in. Just leave a blank for those who don't want to be
part of their family, and let your good grandchildren
unite with those who want to be family.

I remember when I sent a picture to a lost relative
of his father in 1920s. He was on the way to work. His
wife got the email and called him and he returned home
and called me immediately >from Israel. The sound of
his excitement, a lost family found, this is what
makes life worth living. And this is where a whole new
story begins.

Sincerely,
Yehudah BenShlomo
U.S.A.

One more issue is that surnames were not required until several
centuries ago, so different families living close by may have taken
the same last name. They may have been related along maternal lines,
or not at all. We think that's what happened in our family. We have
two families >from the same general area (Bobruisk area of Belarus--my
branch doesn't know the exact shtetl), and there is a striking
similarity of how we look compared to one other EPSTEIN branch. But
two individuals who look very similar don't have the same Y DNA. We
think we're related by some common maternal ancestor and just haven't
been able to pin it down.

Marsha Epstein
mepstein@earthlink.net

One more issue is that surnames were not required until several
centuries ago, so different families living close by may have taken
the same last name. They may have been related along maternal lines,
or not at all. We think that's what happened in our family. We have
two families >from the same general area (Bobruisk area of Belarus--my
branch doesn't know the exact shtetl), and there is a striking
similarity of how we look compared to one other EPSTEIN branch. But
two individuals who look very similar don't have the same Y DNA. We
think we're related by some common maternal ancestor and just haven't
been able to pin it down.

Marsha Epstein
mepstein@earthlink.net

On 2005.08.08, Leslie Reich <lreich@tiscali.co.uk> wrote:

This enquiry probably relates to the descendants of the Hassidic
Rebbe, R' Yisochor Ber of Radoszyce (1725 - 1843) [...]
He had a son, R' Yisroel Yitzchok (1810 - 1858) and three
sons-in-law, who became hassidic Rebbbes in Poland.
Descendant Rebbes who perished in the Nazi war include:
R Chaim Usher (d. in Kielce 1941 and was buried)
R' Yitzchok Shmuel Elya of Pietrokow (murdered)
R' Yosef Boruch (murdered in Lodz)
R' Binyomin of Radoszyce (murdered)
R' Pinchos Yisochor of Sosnowice (murdered on the way to Cracow)
R' Yitzchok of Pinchov (murdered)
R' Noson Yakov Perl of Kinck (died & buried, Autumn 1941)
R' Kalmisch of Radoszyce (murdered with the whole Community).

In addition to those descendants of Rabbi Yissakhar Ber "The Saba
of Radoszyce" mentioned by Leslie Reich, the Rebbe had a grandson
Yissakhar Ber who lived in Lodz. His son Chaim changed his surname
to Rapaport and lived in Jaslo where he perished with several of his
family. One of Chaim's sons was Rabbi Dr. Izaac Rapaport who settled
in London before the War and >from 1952 was Av Beit Din in Melbourne.
See Alfasi's "Hakhassidut Midor Ledor" and Wunder's "Meorei Galicia"
volume 5 page 999. He died in Givatayim about 1983. The Melbourne
Hebrew Congregation has a stained glass window erected by Rapaport
in memory of those of his family who perished in the Holocaust and
it mentions his connection with Radoszyce.

For the Radoszyce dynasty see Alfasi's book "Hasaba Hakadosh
Miradoshitz". Sinai 1957 Tel Aviv (for those with access to Bar
Ilan Library A670.92 and many other Chassidic dynasties)

Chaim Freedman
Petah Tikvah, Israel
chaimjan@zahav.net.il
http://au.geocities.com/chaimjan2003/Chaim_Freedman.html

On 2005.08.08, Leslie Reich <lreich@tiscali.co.uk> wrote:

This enquiry probably relates to the descendants of the Hassidic
Rebbe, R' Yisochor Ber of Radoszyce (1725 - 1843) [...]
He had a son, R' Yisroel Yitzchok (1810 - 1858) and three
sons-in-law, who became hassidic Rebbbes in Poland.
Descendant Rebbes who perished in the Nazi war include:
R Chaim Usher (d. in Kielce 1941 and was buried)
R' Yitzchok Shmuel Elya of Pietrokow (murdered)
R' Yosef Boruch (murdered in Lodz)
R' Binyomin of Radoszyce (murdered)
R' Pinchos Yisochor of Sosnowice (murdered on the way to Cracow)
R' Yitzchok of Pinchov (murdered)
R' Noson Yakov Perl of Kinck (died & buried, Autumn 1941)
R' Kalmisch of Radoszyce (murdered with the whole Community).

In addition to those descendants of Rabbi Yissakhar Ber "The Saba
of Radoszyce" mentioned by Leslie Reich, the Rebbe had a grandson
Yissakhar Ber who lived in Lodz. His son Chaim changed his surname
to Rapaport and lived in Jaslo where he perished with several of his
family. One of Chaim's sons was Rabbi Dr. Izaac Rapaport who settled
in London before the War and >from 1952 was Av Beit Din in Melbourne.
See Alfasi's "Hakhassidut Midor Ledor" and Wunder's "Meorei Galicia"
volume 5 page 999. He died in Givatayim about 1983. The Melbourne
Hebrew Congregation has a stained glass window erected by Rapaport
in memory of those of his family who perished in the Holocaust and
it mentions his connection with Radoszyce.

For the Radoszyce dynasty see Alfasi's book "Hasaba Hakadosh
Miradoshitz". Sinai 1957 Tel Aviv (for those with access to Bar
Ilan Library A670.92 and many other Chassidic dynasties)

Chaim Freedman
Petah Tikvah, Israel
chaimjan@zahav.net.il
http://au.geocities.com/chaimjan2003/Chaim_Freedman.html

I would like to know how to find my grandfather's father's connection
to any teaching faclity in Poland. I was told that my great-grandfather
was a teacher of rabbis. Any help would be appreciated...

Note: For those of you that have emailed me re: my inital post, I have
been to the Social Security Death Index and found much info there
regarding family D.O.B. etc...I also found out more about which census
they may have been registered. They arrived in Windsor, >from Poland, @ 1911.
My eldest uncle was born in July of 1912...

Thank you for such a wealth of responses...

Shalom,
Jan Fox

P.S. Anybody who want to find Canadian naturalization papers for the
years 1915-1932 can go to www.genealogie.gc.ca. This is the home page for
the Canadian Genealogy Centre. Click on Databases and scroll down till
you see the link for the Naturalization papers. Click on it and then
enter a surname in search bar. They are on high/low resolution PDF
files and you need to expand to 75% or 100% to be able to see everything
clearly. Sorry if this infringes, but many people who responded to my
email requested the location where I found the papers...I felt a need to
share this info...

MODERATOR'S NOTE: Please respond privately regarding Canadian or US
research. Ideas on how to find information on an ancestor who was a
teacher of rabbis in Poland may be shared with the list.

I would like to know how to find my grandfather's father's connection
to any teaching faclity in Poland. I was told that my great-grandfather
was a teacher of rabbis. Any help would be appreciated...

Note: For those of you that have emailed me re: my inital post, I have
been to the Social Security Death Index and found much info there
regarding family D.O.B. etc...I also found out more about which census
they may have been registered. They arrived in Windsor, >from Poland, @ 1911.
My eldest uncle was born in July of 1912...

Thank you for such a wealth of responses...

Shalom,
Jan Fox

P.S. Anybody who want to find Canadian naturalization papers for the
years 1915-1932 can go to www.genealogie.gc.ca. This is the home page for
the Canadian Genealogy Centre. Click on Databases and scroll down till
you see the link for the Naturalization papers. Click on it and then
enter a surname in search bar. They are on high/low resolution PDF
files and you need to expand to 75% or 100% to be able to see everything
clearly. Sorry if this infringes, but many people who responded to my
email requested the location where I found the papers...I felt a need to
share this info...

MODERATOR'S NOTE: Please respond privately regarding Canadian or US
research. Ideas on how to find information on an ancestor who was a
teacher of rabbis in Poland may be shared with the list.

In documenting the spelling of surnames, I'm curious if most of you record
surnames using the Polish spelling or the transliterated spelling. Does
the spelling of the name in Polish documents take precedencd over the
transliterated spelling?

I've been using the Polish spelling as the primary spelling, so that we
don't forget how the name was spelled in the Polish records. But the
pronunciation of the surname is quite different and I don't want to lose
track of how the name was pronounced.

I do include both spellings of the surname, but thought I'd ask you all if
using the transliterated spelling is acceptable.

Thanks.

Tom Erribe

In documenting the spelling of surnames, I'm curious if most of you record
surnames using the Polish spelling or the transliterated spelling. Does
the spelling of the name in Polish documents take precedencd over the
transliterated spelling?

I've been using the Polish spelling as the primary spelling, so that we
don't forget how the name was spelled in the Polish records. But the
pronunciation of the surname is quite different and I don't want to lose
track of how the name was pronounced.

I do include both spellings of the surname, but thought I'd ask you all if
using the transliterated spelling is acceptable.

Thanks.

Tom Erribe

Dear Drew,
Did they travel with another adult? They would have been pretty young
arriving here on their own. Maybe an older sibling and her husband??
Have you found them in 1910 or 1920 census? Who are they living with?

Just as an idea >from my own family's experience...

My stepfather's mother came in 1921 and the manifest is all wrong. You'd
think by that time, the records would be better. Rae Sporn was 14 and her
sister, Pearl, was 12. Their parents had died in Poland in 1916 and 1920,
so Rae and Pearl came to the US with their oldest sister, Minnie, her
husband, Benjamin Massler and their 2 young sons.
On the ship's manifest -- it lists Rae Sporn as Sporn Massler !

Sometimes, immigrants even represented themselves as siblings, even when
they were really cousins or nieces. In my ex-husband's family, his grandmother
clearly states on the manifest that she is coming to the US to her "brother"
and he was really her uncle. She even used his last name, not her own.

So, the moral is, make *no* assumptions. Try the most ridiculous combos
possible. Anything, and I mean literally, anything is possible.

Judi Gyori Missel
Mesa, Arizona

Searching: WEBERMAN, KLEIN, SCHWARCZ, DEUTS/DEUTCH, BRAUN, SCHONSTEIN,
ROZENBAUM, ZIMERMAN all >from the small towns around Eger - Maklar, Kerescsend,
Mezokeresztes, Dormand, Abuajszanto, Szina.
SPITZER, SCHWED, GRUNBERGER, GYARFAS >from Satorajauljhely and Budapest
HIRSCHFELD, GYORI, SINGER >from Gyor, Bratislavia

Dear Drew,
Did they travel with another adult? They would have been pretty young
arriving here on their own. Maybe an older sibling and her husband??
Have you found them in 1910 or 1920 census? Who are they living with?

Just as an idea >from my own family's experience...

My stepfather's mother came in 1921 and the manifest is all wrong. You'd
think by that time, the records would be better. Rae Sporn was 14 and her
sister, Pearl, was 12. Their parents had died in Poland in 1916 and 1920,
so Rae and Pearl came to the US with their oldest sister, Minnie, her
husband, Benjamin Massler and their 2 young sons.
On the ship's manifest -- it lists Rae Sporn as Sporn Massler !

Sometimes, immigrants even represented themselves as siblings, even when
they were really cousins or nieces. In my ex-husband's family, his grandmother
clearly states on the manifest that she is coming to the US to her "brother"
and he was really her uncle. She even used his last name, not her own.

So, the moral is, make *no* assumptions. Try the most ridiculous combos
possible. Anything, and I mean literally, anything is possible.

Judi Gyori Missel
Mesa, Arizona

Searching: WEBERMAN, KLEIN, SCHWARCZ, DEUTS/DEUTCH, BRAUN, SCHONSTEIN,
ROZENBAUM, ZIMERMAN all >from the small towns around Eger - Maklar, Kerescsend,
Mezokeresztes, Dormand, Abuajszanto, Szina.
SPITZER, SCHWED, GRUNBERGER, GYARFAS >from Satorajauljhely and Budapest
HIRSCHFELD, GYORI, SINGER >from Gyor, Bratislavia

Looking for relations of Meyer Jacob GREENMAN (born abt 1858 in Antopol,
Belarus, died 1931 New York)
Brother: Chiam
Sister: Gold Riva (married Caplin)
Please respond privately.
Robert A. Dodell
RADodell@Worldnet.att.net

Looking for relations of Meyer Jacob GREENMAN (born abt 1858 in Antopol,
Belarus, died 1931 New York)
Brother: Chiam
Sister: Gold Riva (married Caplin)
Please respond privately.
Robert A. Dodell
RADodell@Worldnet.att.net

Drew:

Have you checked all the resources on the JewishGen website?

The separate and independent Jewish Records Indexing - Poland database
of indices to Jewish vital records of Poland is hosted by JewishGen.
This database at www.jri-poland.org/jriplweb.htm contains indices to all
available Bialystok vital records >from 1835 through 1903. Search for
SARVER (sounds like) and set Geographical Region to Grodno Gubernia and
you will find many SARWER ("w" in Polish is pronounced like our "v")
indices and ones with other spelling variations. These spellings may
help you in searching the Ellis Island database, which you should always
search using the Steve Morse search forms at http://www.stevemorse.org/ .

Another good source of Bialystok information and data is the BIALYGen
website at http://www.shtetlinks.jewishgen.org/bialygen/homepage.htm , a
JewishGen SIG/research group dedicated to the Bialystok area.

Joining both the JRI-Poland and BIALYGen mailing lists would be a good
idea.

I wish you success in your search.

Mark Halpern
JRI-Poland Bialystok Archive Coordinator
BIALYGen Coordinator

Drew:

Have you checked all the resources on the JewishGen website?

The separate and independent Jewish Records Indexing - Poland database
of indices to Jewish vital records of Poland is hosted by JewishGen.
This database at www.jri-poland.org/jriplweb.htm contains indices to all
available Bialystok vital records >from 1835 through 1903. Search for
SARVER (sounds like) and set Geographical Region to Grodno Gubernia and
you will find many SARWER ("w" in Polish is pronounced like our "v")
indices and ones with other spelling variations. These spellings may
help you in searching the Ellis Island database, which you should always
search using the Steve Morse search forms at http://www.stevemorse.org/ .

Another good source of Bialystok information and data is the BIALYGen
website at http://www.shtetlinks.jewishgen.org/bialygen/homepage.htm , a
JewishGen SIG/research group dedicated to the Bialystok area.

Joining both the JRI-Poland and BIALYGen mailing lists would be a good
idea.

I wish you success in your search.

Mark Halpern
JRI-Poland Bialystok Archive Coordinator
BIALYGen Coordinator

Simon wrote, "There's a world of difference between information being
scattered in paper archives all over the world and being readily
available on the internet (which is what is usually meant by
"publishing" these days)."

Simon makes a great point. If by "publishing" one means making some hard
copies and mailing them to relatives, that's one thing. But "publishing"
on the internet is something else entirely. Webmasters beware: you
should be hiding your online family histories behind passwords that you
only reveal to relatives and others you can trust. Alternatively, you
can put "Living XXX" (where XXX is the appropriate surname) with no
other revealing information for anyone living. The benefit of using the
"Living XXX" option is that your family history is available to
Google-type searches so that potential relatives can find you.

- Deb Scheimer, Pittsburgh, PA
Searching: GUNDERSHEIMER, RUDICK, PERVIN, BINSTOCK / BEAN

Simon wrote, "There's a world of difference between information being
scattered in paper archives all over the world and being readily
available on the internet (which is what is usually meant by
"publishing" these days)."

Simon makes a great point. If by "publishing" one means making some hard
copies and mailing them to relatives, that's one thing. But "publishing"
on the internet is something else entirely. Webmasters beware: you
should be hiding your online family histories behind passwords that you
only reveal to relatives and others you can trust. Alternatively, you
can put "Living XXX" (where XXX is the appropriate surname) with no
other revealing information for anyone living. The benefit of using the
"Living XXX" option is that your family history is available to
Google-type searches so that potential relatives can find you.

- Deb Scheimer, Pittsburgh, PA
Searching: GUNDERSHEIMER, RUDICK, PERVIN, BINSTOCK / BEAN

Why don't you search the on line directories for the 20s that have been
discussed here?

Jackye Sullins
San Diego

Why don't you search the on line directories for the 20s that have been
discussed here?

Jackye Sullins
San Diego