Date   

Re: First Jews in England #general

Nick <tulse04-news@...>
 

"Jonathan Allen" <jonathan@barumtrading.co.uk> wrote

Nick < tulse04-news@yahoo.co.uk > wrote:
The title is a crowdpuller but it refers to the period 1720-1913. Clearly
these are not known to the vast majority of metropolitan UK Jews, but there
were synagogues in many of the small towns all over England eg Exeter,
Plymouth, and Bristol.
There still *are* synagogues in Exeter, Plymouth and Bristol, although
only the latter has a diversity (Orthodox and Progressive/Liberal) and
rabbis. Plymouth has services each Shabbat morning and Exeter alternates
between Orthodox and Progressive style services and leadership.
That was not my point. And I then should have chosen places where there are
not now synagogues eg Falmouth. Like the Asian population in England today,
and the Jews in South Africa (see the book by the author/emeritus professor
of English Dan Jacobson) the Jews were shopkeepers/traders and you have to
go where the business is.

http://www.jewishgen.org/cemetery/brit/england.html lists the following
places as having cemeteries or Jewish burials post-1656:

Bath
Birmingham
Brighton
Bristol:
Chatham: Kent
Cheltenham:
Cornwall:
Darlington:
Durham: See Newcastle Upon Tyne And Sunderland
Exeter: (Devon)
Falmouth:
Gateshead:
Gloucester:
Great Yarmouth , Norfolk
Grimsby:
Hartlepool:
Honiton, Devon
Hull: Humberside
Ipswich :
King's Lynn:
Leeds:
Liverpool :
Manchester:
Middlesbrough:
Newcastle Upon Tyne
Northampton: Kent ??
Norwich:
North Shields
Oxford :
Penzance:
Plymouth:
Portsmouth & Southsea: (Hants)
Preston: Lancs
Ramsgate:
Sheffield:
Southampton:
Southend & Westcliff: (Essex)
South Shields
Southwold: Suffolk
Stockton:
Sunderland:
Surrey:
Whitley Bay:

It doesn't mention >from my own knowledge

Reading
Nottingham
Cardiff
Bangor
Bognor, West Sussex

At times, particularly during the War, communities were set up elsewhere eg
Bedford, Luton, Letchworth (see the recent correspondence in the London JC).

This is not exhaustive.

--
Nick Landau
London, UK

COHNREICH (Anklam, Germany Krajenka, Poland) ATLAS (Wielkie Oczy (near
Lvov/Lemberg), Poland)
WECHSLER(Schwabach, Germany) KOHN (Wallerstein and Kleinerdlingen,Germany)
LANDAU/FREDKIN(Gomel, Mogilev, Belarus


JewishGen Discussion Group #JewishGen Re: First Jews in England #general

Nick <tulse04-news@...>
 

"Jonathan Allen" <jonathan@barumtrading.co.uk> wrote

Nick < tulse04-news@yahoo.co.uk > wrote:
The title is a crowdpuller but it refers to the period 1720-1913. Clearly
these are not known to the vast majority of metropolitan UK Jews, but there
were synagogues in many of the small towns all over England eg Exeter,
Plymouth, and Bristol.
There still *are* synagogues in Exeter, Plymouth and Bristol, although
only the latter has a diversity (Orthodox and Progressive/Liberal) and
rabbis. Plymouth has services each Shabbat morning and Exeter alternates
between Orthodox and Progressive style services and leadership.
That was not my point. And I then should have chosen places where there are
not now synagogues eg Falmouth. Like the Asian population in England today,
and the Jews in South Africa (see the book by the author/emeritus professor
of English Dan Jacobson) the Jews were shopkeepers/traders and you have to
go where the business is.

http://www.jewishgen.org/cemetery/brit/england.html lists the following
places as having cemeteries or Jewish burials post-1656:

Bath
Birmingham
Brighton
Bristol:
Chatham: Kent
Cheltenham:
Cornwall:
Darlington:
Durham: See Newcastle Upon Tyne And Sunderland
Exeter: (Devon)
Falmouth:
Gateshead:
Gloucester:
Great Yarmouth , Norfolk
Grimsby:
Hartlepool:
Honiton, Devon
Hull: Humberside
Ipswich :
King's Lynn:
Leeds:
Liverpool :
Manchester:
Middlesbrough:
Newcastle Upon Tyne
Northampton: Kent ??
Norwich:
North Shields
Oxford :
Penzance:
Plymouth:
Portsmouth & Southsea: (Hants)
Preston: Lancs
Ramsgate:
Sheffield:
Southampton:
Southend & Westcliff: (Essex)
South Shields
Southwold: Suffolk
Stockton:
Sunderland:
Surrey:
Whitley Bay:

It doesn't mention >from my own knowledge

Reading
Nottingham
Cardiff
Bangor
Bognor, West Sussex

At times, particularly during the War, communities were set up elsewhere eg
Bedford, Luton, Letchworth (see the recent correspondence in the London JC).

This is not exhaustive.

--
Nick Landau
London, UK

COHNREICH (Anklam, Germany Krajenka, Poland) ATLAS (Wielkie Oczy (near
Lvov/Lemberg), Poland)
WECHSLER(Schwabach, Germany) KOHN (Wallerstein and Kleinerdlingen,Germany)
LANDAU/FREDKIN(Gomel, Mogilev, Belarus


UK Jewish Marriage Records #general

Nick <tulse04-news@...>
 

I have just come across http://www.jgsgb.org.uk/engmarr.shtml

"Tips For Finding Marriage Documents >from Jewish Marriges In England"
compiled by Laurence Harris published by the JGSGB.
--
Nick Landau
London, UK
COHNREICH (Anklam, Germany Krajenka, Poland) ATLAS (Wielkie Oczy (near
Lvov/Lemberg), Poland)
WECHSLER(Schwabach, Germany) KOHN (Wallerstein and Kleinerdlingen,Germany)
LANDAU/FREDKIN(Gomel, Mogilev, Belarus)


JewishGen Discussion Group #JewishGen UK Jewish Marriage Records #general

Nick <tulse04-news@...>
 

I have just come across http://www.jgsgb.org.uk/engmarr.shtml

"Tips For Finding Marriage Documents >from Jewish Marriges In England"
compiled by Laurence Harris published by the JGSGB.
--
Nick Landau
London, UK
COHNREICH (Anklam, Germany Krajenka, Poland) ATLAS (Wielkie Oczy (near
Lvov/Lemberg), Poland)
WECHSLER(Schwabach, Germany) KOHN (Wallerstein and Kleinerdlingen,Germany)
LANDAU/FREDKIN(Gomel, Mogilev, Belarus)


Re: Jewish or English? #general

Nick <tulse04-news@...>
 

<yisraelasper@comcast.net> wrote

The truth is that being Jewish is both a religious and ethnic classification
depending on context.
But the original question was about English Jews in America and I point out
elsewhere >from the website
http://college.hmco.com/history/readerscomp/rcah/html/ah_059400_middlecoloni.htm
about the Middle Colonies, which gives a list of the colonists origins which
includes Dutch Calvinists, Scandinavian Lutherans, German Baptists, Swiss
Pietists, Welsh Quakers, French Huguenots, Scots Presbyterians which is a
linkage of geographic area and religion.

Of course, most went to North America for religious freedom.
--
Nick Landau
London, UK

COHNREICH (Anklam, Germany Krajenka, Poland) ATLAS (Wielkie Oczy (near
Lvov/Lemberg), Poland)
WECHSLER(Schwabach, Germany) KOHN (Wallerstein and Kleinerdlingen,Germany)
LANDAU/FREDKIN(Gomel, Mogilev, Belarus)


JewishGen Discussion Group #JewishGen Re: Jewish or English? #general

Nick <tulse04-news@...>
 

<yisraelasper@comcast.net> wrote

The truth is that being Jewish is both a religious and ethnic classification
depending on context.
But the original question was about English Jews in America and I point out
elsewhere >from the website
http://college.hmco.com/history/readerscomp/rcah/html/ah_059400_middlecoloni.htm
about the Middle Colonies, which gives a list of the colonists origins which
includes Dutch Calvinists, Scandinavian Lutherans, German Baptists, Swiss
Pietists, Welsh Quakers, French Huguenots, Scots Presbyterians which is a
linkage of geographic area and religion.

Of course, most went to North America for religious freedom.
--
Nick Landau
London, UK

COHNREICH (Anklam, Germany Krajenka, Poland) ATLAS (Wielkie Oczy (near
Lvov/Lemberg), Poland)
WECHSLER(Schwabach, Germany) KOHN (Wallerstein and Kleinerdlingen,Germany)
LANDAU/FREDKIN(Gomel, Mogilev, Belarus)


Re: canadian census help #general

Nick <tulse04-news@...>
 

"steven weiss" <szome@hotmail.com> wrote

I believe my SHULMAN relatives should be listed on the 1911 Canadian
census now online as living in Sault Ste. Marie, Ontario. Is there a way
to find them without trolling through hundreds of pdf files? They arrived
in 1910.
You will be able to see that I live in London, but as with the UK Census,
until someone entered the information manually, you had to know precisely
where the person lived to look up the Census records.

http://www.globalgenealogy.com/Census/ says that online access will begin in
August 2005.
--
Nick Landau
London, UK

COHNREICH (Anklam, Germany Krajenka, Poland) ATLAS (Wielkie Oczy (near
Lvov/Lemberg), Poland)
WECHSLER(Schwabach, Germany) KOHN (Wallerstein and Kleinerdlingen,Germany)
LANDAU/FREDKIN(Gomel, Mogilev, Belarus)


JewishGen Discussion Group #JewishGen Re: canadian census help #general

Nick <tulse04-news@...>
 

"steven weiss" <szome@hotmail.com> wrote

I believe my SHULMAN relatives should be listed on the 1911 Canadian
census now online as living in Sault Ste. Marie, Ontario. Is there a way
to find them without trolling through hundreds of pdf files? They arrived
in 1910.
You will be able to see that I live in London, but as with the UK Census,
until someone entered the information manually, you had to know precisely
where the person lived to look up the Census records.

http://www.globalgenealogy.com/Census/ says that online access will begin in
August 2005.
--
Nick Landau
London, UK

COHNREICH (Anklam, Germany Krajenka, Poland) ATLAS (Wielkie Oczy (near
Lvov/Lemberg), Poland)
WECHSLER(Schwabach, Germany) KOHN (Wallerstein and Kleinerdlingen,Germany)
LANDAU/FREDKIN(Gomel, Mogilev, Belarus)


Comments regarding reserches in Poland Part 1 #general

Marius Loeffler <varicoseveins@...>
 

My expierience with reserches is negtive and my advice is to be very
careful. I approached one group of researches who claimed to be graduates
from Warsaw University in History. They wrote that they will start initial
research and they will show the result and they will ask for deposit. They
asked me alot of questions. After several weeks and letters I received
e-mail telling me that after initial research and thanks to the fact that
they know fellow >from Jewish Historical Institute they found several names
Loeffler (which is my name) and as a matter of fact I did not ask them to
find the name Loeffler because I know all the Loefflers in Poland I asked
them about completely different matter. Obviously they did not even read my
story but they asked me to pay them deposit of $300 USA I did not reply.
Private researches in Poland can do very little. They have no access to the
archives and they might charge you for bogus services. The best is to deal
with Archives directly or even go to Poland. You might find it much cheaper.
If you do not know Polish that might be handicap. They are plenty of oficial
translators.
My advice is Beware!
Dr Marius Loeffler


JewishGen Discussion Group #JewishGen Comments regarding reserches in Poland Part 1 #general

Marius Loeffler <varicoseveins@...>
 

My expierience with reserches is negtive and my advice is to be very
careful. I approached one group of researches who claimed to be graduates
from Warsaw University in History. They wrote that they will start initial
research and they will show the result and they will ask for deposit. They
asked me alot of questions. After several weeks and letters I received
e-mail telling me that after initial research and thanks to the fact that
they know fellow >from Jewish Historical Institute they found several names
Loeffler (which is my name) and as a matter of fact I did not ask them to
find the name Loeffler because I know all the Loefflers in Poland I asked
them about completely different matter. Obviously they did not even read my
story but they asked me to pay them deposit of $300 USA I did not reply.
Private researches in Poland can do very little. They have no access to the
archives and they might charge you for bogus services. The best is to deal
with Archives directly or even go to Poland. You might find it much cheaper.
If you do not know Polish that might be handicap. They are plenty of oficial
translators.
My advice is Beware!
Dr Marius Loeffler


Re: The Five *Familiantin* of Tabor Stadt, 1793. #austria-czech

Celia Male <celiamale@...>
 

I just deleted my bulk mail and as I watched the spam
disappear for ever, I saw flash across the screen the
words Austria-Czech - and possibly the sender called
Ariana? I think the title include *Tabor*. Under
hypnosis, I would probably be certain it was entitled
Re: The Five *Familiantin* of Tabor Stadt, 1793, but
it may be a delusion.

So if you are a member of Austria-Czech/Jewishgen who
sent me this mail, please resend it! For some reason
it was directed to my Spam box. It is very rare that
legitimate Austria-Czech post arrives in my spam box
but it has happened and I always transfer them safely.

Handy hints:
1. The other day I sent a mail to myself to check the
formatting and the URLs in a posting. So this is a
handy hint for all of you; if you send in a complex
posting with URLs, many paragraphs and with names in
upper case letters, send it to yourself first, keeping
an original copy in your draft box.

Believe it or not, this mail I sent to myself ended up
in the spam box too. I think the word *Tabor* may be
the suspect!

2. Another handy hint I sent to a SIG member today is
how to retrieve a deleted digest. For those of you who
are new to the group, you can retrieve old
Austria-Czech digests by sending a mail to:
<lyris@lyris.jewishgen.org> with *no subject line* and
then enter as a first line of text:

get Austriaczech 20050721

or any other date in this format: yyyymmdd

For the General Discussion Group, it is the same
except you have to type: get jewishgen 20050721

and again post to <lyris@lyris.jewishgen.org>
*Leave subject line blank*

This method can be used to retrieve messages for any
day you might have missed or inadvertently deleted.

Unfortunately this handy method cannot be used to
retrieve spam messages!

Celia Male [U.K.]


Anglo-Jewish Records #general

Nick <tulse04-news@...>
 

I have come across this leaflet entitled "Records Of The Anglo-Jewish
Community At London Metropolitan Archives".

http://tinyurl.com/8e7q5

Nick Landau
London, UK

COHNREICH (Anklam, Germany Krajenka, Poland) ATLAS (Wielkie Oczy (near
Lvov/Lemberg), Poland)
WECHSLER(Schwabach, Germany) KOHN (Wallerstein and Kleinerdlingen,Germany)
LANDAU/FREDKIN(Gomel, Mogilev, Belarus)


Austria-Czech SIG #Austria-Czech Re: The Five *Familiantin* of Tabor Stadt, 1793. #austria-czech

Celia Male <celiamale@...>
 

I just deleted my bulk mail and as I watched the spam
disappear for ever, I saw flash across the screen the
words Austria-Czech - and possibly the sender called
Ariana? I think the title include *Tabor*. Under
hypnosis, I would probably be certain it was entitled
Re: The Five *Familiantin* of Tabor Stadt, 1793, but
it may be a delusion.

So if you are a member of Austria-Czech/Jewishgen who
sent me this mail, please resend it! For some reason
it was directed to my Spam box. It is very rare that
legitimate Austria-Czech post arrives in my spam box
but it has happened and I always transfer them safely.

Handy hints:
1. The other day I sent a mail to myself to check the
formatting and the URLs in a posting. So this is a
handy hint for all of you; if you send in a complex
posting with URLs, many paragraphs and with names in
upper case letters, send it to yourself first, keeping
an original copy in your draft box.

Believe it or not, this mail I sent to myself ended up
in the spam box too. I think the word *Tabor* may be
the suspect!

2. Another handy hint I sent to a SIG member today is
how to retrieve a deleted digest. For those of you who
are new to the group, you can retrieve old
Austria-Czech digests by sending a mail to:
<lyris@lyris.jewishgen.org> with *no subject line* and
then enter as a first line of text:

get Austriaczech 20050721

or any other date in this format: yyyymmdd

For the General Discussion Group, it is the same
except you have to type: get jewishgen 20050721

and again post to <lyris@lyris.jewishgen.org>
*Leave subject line blank*

This method can be used to retrieve messages for any
day you might have missed or inadvertently deleted.

Unfortunately this handy method cannot be used to
retrieve spam messages!

Celia Male [U.K.]


JewishGen Discussion Group #JewishGen Anglo-Jewish Records #general

Nick <tulse04-news@...>
 

I have come across this leaflet entitled "Records Of The Anglo-Jewish
Community At London Metropolitan Archives".

http://tinyurl.com/8e7q5

Nick Landau
London, UK

COHNREICH (Anklam, Germany Krajenka, Poland) ATLAS (Wielkie Oczy (near
Lvov/Lemberg), Poland)
WECHSLER(Schwabach, Germany) KOHN (Wallerstein and Kleinerdlingen,Germany)
LANDAU/FREDKIN(Gomel, Mogilev, Belarus)


Re: Klepperle / Klepplerer #austria-czech

David & Diana Laufer <dlaufer@...>
 

My heartfelt thanks to Celia Male for her erudite response to my query on
the subject.I am always impressed by her careful analysis and her
access to information sources. She has whetted my imagination further, and
so I a few more comments.

a) She is correct when she states

"However, I am not so
sure that the alternate spellings David sees are as he
records them above. It could be a slip of the pen re
Fanni on the far right. "

On further enlarging the image on the screen I note that what I had
thought to be an L was in fact the tail of the F in the name above.
The surname given there now reads KLEPPERER.

b) In the Viewmate, Francisca mother's maiden name is given as FISCHEL
rather than FISCHER. Noting this and the -LE suffix on KLEPPER makes me
wonder how often surnames are expressed in the diminutive. For example,
could this mean that Jacob KLEPPERLE is descended >from the younger (little)
brother Abraham or Isak, both mentioned by Celia.

c) There seem to be quite a few Sara's in this scenario, This causes me
to wonder how come David and Sara FISCHER would name their daughter
Sara also.

d As Francisca was born in 1832, it is quite possible that
(Rosalia.) S, born circa 180, was the mother of Sara

e) what is the meaning of the 4th column It has always perplexed me.

f) what is a Posamentierer ?

Regrds
David


Austria-Czech SIG #Austria-Czech Re: Klepperle / Klepplerer #austria-czech

David & Diana Laufer <dlaufer@...>
 

My heartfelt thanks to Celia Male for her erudite response to my query on
the subject.I am always impressed by her careful analysis and her
access to information sources. She has whetted my imagination further, and
so I a few more comments.

a) She is correct when she states

"However, I am not so
sure that the alternate spellings David sees are as he
records them above. It could be a slip of the pen re
Fanni on the far right. "

On further enlarging the image on the screen I note that what I had
thought to be an L was in fact the tail of the F in the name above.
The surname given there now reads KLEPPERER.

b) In the Viewmate, Francisca mother's maiden name is given as FISCHEL
rather than FISCHER. Noting this and the -LE suffix on KLEPPER makes me
wonder how often surnames are expressed in the diminutive. For example,
could this mean that Jacob KLEPPERLE is descended >from the younger (little)
brother Abraham or Isak, both mentioned by Celia.

c) There seem to be quite a few Sara's in this scenario, This causes me
to wonder how come David and Sara FISCHER would name their daughter
Sara also.

d As Francisca was born in 1832, it is quite possible that
(Rosalia.) S, born circa 180, was the mother of Sara

e) what is the meaning of the 4th column It has always perplexed me.

f) what is a Posamentierer ?

Regrds
David


Re: Klepperle / Klepplerer #austria-czech

Celia Male <celiamale@...>
 

David Laufer >from Sydney writes:
"On row 125 of the Vienna marriage record that appears
in View Mate 6526:

http://data.jewishgen.org/viewmate/ALL/viewmateview.asp?key=6526

is the marriage of Eduard LAUFER to Francisca
KLEPPERLE. However, in the far right columns the
surname is spelt KLEPPLERE or KLEPPLERER.

I am aware that spellings do change over time and
place, but to find different spellings in the same
document is a bit surprising to me."

This is a very good example of why one should reply to
some Viewmate queries directly to the SIG list and not
privately, as it leads to interesting findings.

I have checked the 1793 census of Bohemia [as the name
sounded so "1793 Bohemian" to me!] and was rewarded
with a direct hit. Perversely, only after that, did I
look at the Viewmate and could see I was right, as the
bride of Eduard Laufer did come >from Hermanuv Mestec
in the Chrudimer Kreis, Bohemia! However, I am not so
sure that the alternate spellings David sees are as he
records them above. It could be a slip of the pen re
Fanni on the far right.

Believe it or not, there is a Sara KLEPPERIN living in
house No 18 in Hermanuv Mestec. She is a widow with
two sons Abraham and Isak - both single - and two
daughters, Barbara and Elisabeth.

I presume Jakob KLEPPERLE is the son of either Abraham
and Isak KLEPPER{LE}. Jakob could have married the
daughter of the only FISCHER family in Hermanuv
Mestec. David FISCHER lived in House No 36. He was a
Posamentierer. His wife was Sara - his two sons Beer
and Abraham and two daughters Anna and Rosalia.

The date of the marriage of Francisca to Eduard Laufer
in Vienna was 1859. Francisca, who was 27 at the time
of her marriage, was born in 1832 - so we can assume
her father Jakob KLEPPERLE was 25 at that time and was
born in 1807. Thus Abraham and Isaak KLEPPER{LE} in
the 1793 were young teenagers, who probably were
playmates of the FISCHER children in House No 36.

In the whole of Bohemia [Prague excluded], there is
only one other person with a similar name and she is
another widow called Rebeka KLEPLERIN. There are no
children mentioned. She is living on alms [charity] in
House No 9 in the town of Polna, Caslauer Kreis

We now have widows KLEPPERIN in Hermanuv Mestec and
KLEPLERIN in Polna.

Would *KLEPPERIN* be the feminine form of KLEPPERER or
KLEPPER or KLEPPERLE? I pose the same question for
*KLEPLERIN*. It would be very clumsy to say
KLEPPERLEIN or KLEPPERERIN.

The burial of 79 year old Rosalia KLEPERLE - KLEPERER
who died on 18.02.1882 in Vienna {ZF Tor I 6/22/44}
is important. She was born in 1803 and could be the
widow of Jakob and and the mother of Francisca.
NB: there is only one *P* in the name in Vienna, so
another spelling change. The name in Bohemia was
probably unchanged as KLE{P}PERLE but in Vienna it
converted to KLEPERER, a more Germanic-sounding name.

The first name, Rosalia, is immaterial in the search
for Francisca's mother - I have written about this
many times. Only more research in Prague and Vienna
will prove these hypotheses.

In the fourth column of the Viewmate marriage document
you will also see references to permission to marry
obtained in the Chrudimer Kreis in May 1859. These
will probably also be registered in the Prague
records.

I suspect that the KLEPLER in Polna is a distinct
name, but KLEPLER may also be a mistransliteration
from the original census. This brings in more degrees
of uncertainty.

Celia Male [UK].


Re: Joyce and the Jews of Dublin Was: First Jews in England--and Ireland #general

ben.forman <ben.forman@...>
 

Ok Genners

I've been avoiding joining this conversation with this point
for fear of being laughed off the list, but ...... I
happened to switch on the UK TV channel ITV2 last weekend
and caught a repeat of the 80's show Robin Of Sherwood. This
particular episode which I don't recall seeing before was
about a pogrom in the Jewish population of nottingham
(presumably as this is where robin hood is set) according to
the internet movie database it is: "The Children of Israel"
Episode: #2.2 - 16 March 1985.
The main Jewish family it centers around were called De
Talmont, and when threatened by the Sherrif of Nottingham
(although Sherwood forest does extend to south yorkshire)
the father of the family Joshua de Talmont says that they
are protected as they are poperty of the king.

Please don't laugh to hard :) I just thought I'd mention it
:)

shabbat shalom

Ben Forman


Austria-Czech SIG #Austria-Czech Re: Klepperle / Klepplerer #austria-czech

Celia Male <celiamale@...>
 

David Laufer >from Sydney writes:
"On row 125 of the Vienna marriage record that appears
in View Mate 6526:

http://data.jewishgen.org/viewmate/ALL/viewmateview.asp?key=6526

is the marriage of Eduard LAUFER to Francisca
KLEPPERLE. However, in the far right columns the
surname is spelt KLEPPLERE or KLEPPLERER.

I am aware that spellings do change over time and
place, but to find different spellings in the same
document is a bit surprising to me."

This is a very good example of why one should reply to
some Viewmate queries directly to the SIG list and not
privately, as it leads to interesting findings.

I have checked the 1793 census of Bohemia [as the name
sounded so "1793 Bohemian" to me!] and was rewarded
with a direct hit. Perversely, only after that, did I
look at the Viewmate and could see I was right, as the
bride of Eduard Laufer did come >from Hermanuv Mestec
in the Chrudimer Kreis, Bohemia! However, I am not so
sure that the alternate spellings David sees are as he
records them above. It could be a slip of the pen re
Fanni on the far right.

Believe it or not, there is a Sara KLEPPERIN living in
house No 18 in Hermanuv Mestec. She is a widow with
two sons Abraham and Isak - both single - and two
daughters, Barbara and Elisabeth.

I presume Jakob KLEPPERLE is the son of either Abraham
and Isak KLEPPER{LE}. Jakob could have married the
daughter of the only FISCHER family in Hermanuv
Mestec. David FISCHER lived in House No 36. He was a
Posamentierer. His wife was Sara - his two sons Beer
and Abraham and two daughters Anna and Rosalia.

The date of the marriage of Francisca to Eduard Laufer
in Vienna was 1859. Francisca, who was 27 at the time
of her marriage, was born in 1832 - so we can assume
her father Jakob KLEPPERLE was 25 at that time and was
born in 1807. Thus Abraham and Isaak KLEPPER{LE} in
the 1793 were young teenagers, who probably were
playmates of the FISCHER children in House No 36.

In the whole of Bohemia [Prague excluded], there is
only one other person with a similar name and she is
another widow called Rebeka KLEPLERIN. There are no
children mentioned. She is living on alms [charity] in
House No 9 in the town of Polna, Caslauer Kreis

We now have widows KLEPPERIN in Hermanuv Mestec and
KLEPLERIN in Polna.

Would *KLEPPERIN* be the feminine form of KLEPPERER or
KLEPPER or KLEPPERLE? I pose the same question for
*KLEPLERIN*. It would be very clumsy to say
KLEPPERLEIN or KLEPPERERIN.

The burial of 79 year old Rosalia KLEPERLE - KLEPERER
who died on 18.02.1882 in Vienna {ZF Tor I 6/22/44}
is important. She was born in 1803 and could be the
widow of Jakob and and the mother of Francisca.
NB: there is only one *P* in the name in Vienna, so
another spelling change. The name in Bohemia was
probably unchanged as KLE{P}PERLE but in Vienna it
converted to KLEPERER, a more Germanic-sounding name.

The first name, Rosalia, is immaterial in the search
for Francisca's mother - I have written about this
many times. Only more research in Prague and Vienna
will prove these hypotheses.

In the fourth column of the Viewmate marriage document
you will also see references to permission to marry
obtained in the Chrudimer Kreis in May 1859. These
will probably also be registered in the Prague
records.

I suspect that the KLEPLER in Polna is a distinct
name, but KLEPLER may also be a mistransliteration
from the original census. This brings in more degrees
of uncertainty.

Celia Male [UK].


JewishGen Discussion Group #JewishGen Re: Joyce and the Jews of Dublin Was: First Jews in England--and Ireland #general

ben.forman <ben.forman@...>
 

Ok Genners

I've been avoiding joining this conversation with this point
for fear of being laughed off the list, but ...... I
happened to switch on the UK TV channel ITV2 last weekend
and caught a repeat of the 80's show Robin Of Sherwood. This
particular episode which I don't recall seeing before was
about a pogrom in the Jewish population of nottingham
(presumably as this is where robin hood is set) according to
the internet movie database it is: "The Children of Israel"
Episode: #2.2 - 16 March 1985.
The main Jewish family it centers around were called De
Talmont, and when threatened by the Sherrif of Nottingham
(although Sherwood forest does extend to south yorkshire)
the father of the family Joshua de Talmont says that they
are protected as they are poperty of the king.

Please don't laugh to hard :) I just thought I'd mention it
:)

shabbat shalom

Ben Forman