Date   

WOLSTHAL #general

Aubrey Jacobus <zen28027@...>
 

I have recently diascovered a cousin Hannah Singer born 1897
who lived in Brighton U K married L WOLFSTHAL ; as this is a
rare name I hope that some lister will recognise it .
Please contact me off-list

Thanks

Aubrey Jacobus


JewishGen Discussion Group #JewishGen WOLSTHAL #general

Aubrey Jacobus <zen28027@...>
 

I have recently diascovered a cousin Hannah Singer born 1897
who lived in Brighton U K married L WOLFSTHAL ; as this is a
rare name I hope that some lister will recognise it .
Please contact me off-list

Thanks

Aubrey Jacobus


Remembering Lola God and her baby daughter from Vienna #austria-czech

Celia Male <celiamale@...>
 

If you know anyone who might be related to Lola GOD
and her baby daughter,Tana, >from Vienna, here is a
chance to obtain what is probably the last postcard
Lola ever wrote on 4 July 1944, before their tragic
death at ???

It is >from "Theresienstadt, Main Street 12, Hospital,
Room 71" to Grete BREUER - IKG, Seitenstettengasse,
Vienna. It is a printed card thanking Grethe Breuer
for her parcel [search our message archives with the
keyword SPRONZ to find messages on 28 Dec. 2004 and
5th Jan 2005 - you may recall a similar card was sent
by Moritz SPRONZ]. We managed to locate Moritz's
grandson who purchased the card. Moritz SPRONZ happily
survived the holocaust and died in the US.

Lola's card is being auctioned on a well-known
internet site on the 12th May 2005.

We now know that Grete BREUER was a member of the
Judenrat which did send very basic parcels to
Theresienstadt.

Lola and baby Tana are listed in "Letter to the Stars"

http://www.lettertothestars.at

and the Yad vashem database - there is no testimony,
but we remember them here today:

http://www.yadvashem.org

Lola GOD was born on 19th August 1912 in ? and her
last known address in Vienna was Vienna 2,
Rembrandtstrasse 25/2. Baby Tana was born on 25 April
1944.

They were both transported >from Vienna on the 11th
September 1943, to Theresienstadt.

I cannot find the name GOD in the JGFF [Jewishgen
family finder] or message archives. However, there is
an Awigdor GOD aged 81 who died on 19.10.1983 and is
buried alone in the Zentralfriedhof, Tor IV Group 3
Row 32 Grave 35. His age suggests that he could have
been the husband of Lola and father of baby Tana.

There is another card being auctioned with extensive
Czech text - it is addressed >from Dachau to Vera
VANKOVA at Prague VIII, Primatorska 81/III, dated
9.3.1944. I can read the names "Lilia Te Tvuj Mi?"
The final date for purchasing this card is 13 May
2005.

I will be happy to send the URLs to anyone interested.
Because of prevailing Jewishgen rules on commercial
sites, I am not permitted to list them here.

Celia Male [UK]


Austria-Czech SIG #Austria-Czech Remembering Lola God and her baby daughter from Vienna #austria-czech

Celia Male <celiamale@...>
 

If you know anyone who might be related to Lola GOD
and her baby daughter,Tana, >from Vienna, here is a
chance to obtain what is probably the last postcard
Lola ever wrote on 4 July 1944, before their tragic
death at ???

It is >from "Theresienstadt, Main Street 12, Hospital,
Room 71" to Grete BREUER - IKG, Seitenstettengasse,
Vienna. It is a printed card thanking Grethe Breuer
for her parcel [search our message archives with the
keyword SPRONZ to find messages on 28 Dec. 2004 and
5th Jan 2005 - you may recall a similar card was sent
by Moritz SPRONZ]. We managed to locate Moritz's
grandson who purchased the card. Moritz SPRONZ happily
survived the holocaust and died in the US.

Lola's card is being auctioned on a well-known
internet site on the 12th May 2005.

We now know that Grete BREUER was a member of the
Judenrat which did send very basic parcels to
Theresienstadt.

Lola and baby Tana are listed in "Letter to the Stars"

http://www.lettertothestars.at

and the Yad vashem database - there is no testimony,
but we remember them here today:

http://www.yadvashem.org

Lola GOD was born on 19th August 1912 in ? and her
last known address in Vienna was Vienna 2,
Rembrandtstrasse 25/2. Baby Tana was born on 25 April
1944.

They were both transported >from Vienna on the 11th
September 1943, to Theresienstadt.

I cannot find the name GOD in the JGFF [Jewishgen
family finder] or message archives. However, there is
an Awigdor GOD aged 81 who died on 19.10.1983 and is
buried alone in the Zentralfriedhof, Tor IV Group 3
Row 32 Grave 35. His age suggests that he could have
been the husband of Lola and father of baby Tana.

There is another card being auctioned with extensive
Czech text - it is addressed >from Dachau to Vera
VANKOVA at Prague VIII, Primatorska 81/III, dated
9.3.1944. I can read the names "Lilia Te Tvuj Mi?"
The final date for purchasing this card is 13 May
2005.

I will be happy to send the URLs to anyone interested.
Because of prevailing Jewishgen rules on commercial
sites, I am not permitted to list them here.

Celia Male [UK]


Minimum age of the Eltesten and Primator of a Bohemian Jewish Community in the 17th Century? #austria-czech

Ruth Coman <ruth.coman@...>
 

According to his "History of the SALUS Family" my grandfather's SALUS
ancestors came to Roudnice nad Labem >from Italy in 1632 when Josef
SALUS I was taken on by Count Lobkowitz as his "Sanitaetsgehilfe".

Unfortunately I have not been able to find any firm evidence of Josef's
presence in Roudnice - though I am still hoping it may be possible to
find some relevant graves in the old cemetery there.

I understand, however, that the name SALUS crops up in Richard Feder's
writings about the Roudnice Jews in the period after the 30 Years' War.
The writings are of course in Czech but a rough translation into German
indicated that an Abraham SALUS was elected to be one of the
"Eltesten" of the Jewish community in 1667 and to become the "Primator"
in 1670. A few years later, in 1679, Abraham apparently recommended to
the community that they consider his "hochgelernten und kvalifizierten"
son, Markus as the new rabbi for Roudnice (which they did, for a
significant financial sum).

I would love to be able to link Abraham and the hochgelernten Markus
to my family and a starting point would be to establish roughly when
they were born. How old would Abraham have to have been to become one
of the "Eltisten"? What age must he have been to have had the gravitas
necessary for the Primator of a flourishing community?

I also wonder what the minimum age of Markus could have been when
his father put him forward as Rabbi?

If anyone can throw any light on these questions I should be most
appreciative.

Ruth Coman
London, England
Researching: SALUS, Bohemia; SCHUESSLER,Bohemia,Wien;
LOEWY,Kolodeje nad Luznici,Kolin; MELZER,Zatec; MOC,MOTZ,Bohemia


Austria-Czech SIG #Austria-Czech Minimum age of the Eltesten and Primator of a Bohemian Jewish Community in the 17th Century? #austria-czech

Ruth Coman <ruth.coman@...>
 

According to his "History of the SALUS Family" my grandfather's SALUS
ancestors came to Roudnice nad Labem >from Italy in 1632 when Josef
SALUS I was taken on by Count Lobkowitz as his "Sanitaetsgehilfe".

Unfortunately I have not been able to find any firm evidence of Josef's
presence in Roudnice - though I am still hoping it may be possible to
find some relevant graves in the old cemetery there.

I understand, however, that the name SALUS crops up in Richard Feder's
writings about the Roudnice Jews in the period after the 30 Years' War.
The writings are of course in Czech but a rough translation into German
indicated that an Abraham SALUS was elected to be one of the
"Eltesten" of the Jewish community in 1667 and to become the "Primator"
in 1670. A few years later, in 1679, Abraham apparently recommended to
the community that they consider his "hochgelernten und kvalifizierten"
son, Markus as the new rabbi for Roudnice (which they did, for a
significant financial sum).

I would love to be able to link Abraham and the hochgelernten Markus
to my family and a starting point would be to establish roughly when
they were born. How old would Abraham have to have been to become one
of the "Eltisten"? What age must he have been to have had the gravitas
necessary for the Primator of a flourishing community?

I also wonder what the minimum age of Markus could have been when
his father put him forward as Rabbi?

If anyone can throw any light on these questions I should be most
appreciative.

Ruth Coman
London, England
Researching: SALUS, Bohemia; SCHUESSLER,Bohemia,Wien;
LOEWY,Kolodeje nad Luznici,Kolin; MELZER,Zatec; MOC,MOTZ,Bohemia


Searching for Frankel relatives #austria-czech

Thomas F. Weiss
 

Dear JGenners,

On a recent research trip to Vienna I found the siblings of
my grandfather, Max FRENKEL, after many years of wondering if he had
any. I discovered that he had three sisters and one brother. His
sisters names were Leontine QUADRATSTEIN nee FRAENKEL (AE = A with
umlaut), Mindel ENGEL nee FRAENKEL, and Regina FRAENKEL. All three
sisters as well as my grandfather perished in the Holocaust.

Leontine apparently lived for a time in Saarbrucken, Germany.
I do not know if she had any children.

Mindel had a daughter, Augustine, who married Imre OLLOP.
The daughter and her husband also perished in the Holocaust.

Regina did not marry.

Max's brother Uscher FRAENKEL married Feige KUPFERBERG.
Uscher died in Vienna in 1924. The couple had two sons, Siegfried
and Hermann. Hermann married Franziska LACHS and they had a son
Ulrich Wilhelm FRAENKEL. The sons apparently emigrated >from Vienna in
1938 and a residence record in Vienna indicates that Siegfried went
to Belgium.

Does anyone have any information on any of these family members?

Please respond to me privately at tfweiss@mit.edu.

Thomas Fischer Weiss
Newton, MA
USA
tfweiss@mit.edu

Researching:
FRENKEL (Buchach, Vienna);BUCHHALTER (Skalat); ENGEL (Vienna)
FISCHER (Hriskov, Schlan, Prague);FRAENKEL, FRUCHTER (Rozhnyatov, Vienna);
KATZ (Schlan);KLEPETAR (Jistebnice); MEISELS (Nadworna, Vienna);
OLLOP (Vienna)ORLIK (Pohor, Jistebnice, Benesov, Tabor)
QUADRATSTEIN (Vienna, Saarbrucken)
VODICKA (Dobronitz, Jistebnice, Benesov, Tabor)


Austria-Czech SIG #Austria-Czech Searching for Frankel relatives #austria-czech

Thomas F. Weiss
 

Dear JGenners,

On a recent research trip to Vienna I found the siblings of
my grandfather, Max FRENKEL, after many years of wondering if he had
any. I discovered that he had three sisters and one brother. His
sisters names were Leontine QUADRATSTEIN nee FRAENKEL (AE = A with
umlaut), Mindel ENGEL nee FRAENKEL, and Regina FRAENKEL. All three
sisters as well as my grandfather perished in the Holocaust.

Leontine apparently lived for a time in Saarbrucken, Germany.
I do not know if she had any children.

Mindel had a daughter, Augustine, who married Imre OLLOP.
The daughter and her husband also perished in the Holocaust.

Regina did not marry.

Max's brother Uscher FRAENKEL married Feige KUPFERBERG.
Uscher died in Vienna in 1924. The couple had two sons, Siegfried
and Hermann. Hermann married Franziska LACHS and they had a son
Ulrich Wilhelm FRAENKEL. The sons apparently emigrated >from Vienna in
1938 and a residence record in Vienna indicates that Siegfried went
to Belgium.

Does anyone have any information on any of these family members?

Please respond to me privately at tfweiss@mit.edu.

Thomas Fischer Weiss
Newton, MA
USA
tfweiss@mit.edu

Researching:
FRENKEL (Buchach, Vienna);BUCHHALTER (Skalat); ENGEL (Vienna)
FISCHER (Hriskov, Schlan, Prague);FRAENKEL, FRUCHTER (Rozhnyatov, Vienna);
KATZ (Schlan);KLEPETAR (Jistebnice); MEISELS (Nadworna, Vienna);
OLLOP (Vienna)ORLIK (Pohor, Jistebnice, Benesov, Tabor)
QUADRATSTEIN (Vienna, Saarbrucken)
VODICKA (Dobronitz, Jistebnice, Benesov, Tabor)


Searching for FRANKEL relatives #general

Thomas F. Weiss
 

Dear JGenners,

On a recent research trip to Vienna I found the siblings of
my grandfather, Max FRENKEL, after many years of wondering if he had
any. I discovered that he had three sisters and one brother. His
sisters names were Leontine QUADRATSTEIN nee FRAENKEL (AE = A with
unlaut), Mindel ENGEL nee FRAENKEL, and Regina FRAENKEL. All three
sisters as well as my grandfather perished in the Holocaust.

Leontine apparently lived for a time in Saarbrucken, Germany.
I do not know if she had any children.

Mindel had a daughter, Augustine, who married Imre OLLOP.
The daughter and her husband also perished in the Holocaust.

Regina did not marry.

Max's brother Uscher FRAENKEL married Feige KUPFERBERG.
Uscher died in Vienna in 1924. The couple had two sons, Siegfried
and Hermann. Hermann married Franziska LACHS and they had a son
Ulrich Wilhelm FRAENKEL. The sons apparently emigrated >from Vienna in
1938 and a residence record in Vienna indicates that Siegfried went
to Belgium.

Does anyone have any information on any of these family members?

Please respond to me privately at tfweiss@mit.edu.

--
Thomas Fischer Weiss
Newton, MA
USA
tfweiss@mit.edu

Researching:
FRENKEL (Buchach, Vienna); BUCHHALTER (Skalat); ENGEL (Vienna)
FISCHER (Hriskov, Schlan, Prague); FRAENKEL, FRUCHTER (Rozhnyatov, Vienna);
KATZ (Schlan); KLEPETAR (Jistebnice); MEISELS (Nadworna, Vienna);
OLLOP (Vienna) ORLIK (Pohor, Jistebnice, Benesov, Tabor)
QUADRATSTEIN (Vienna, Saarbrucken)
VODICKA (Dobronitz, Jistebnice, Benesov, Tabor)


JewishGen Discussion Group #JewishGen Searching for FRANKEL relatives #general

Thomas F. Weiss
 

Dear JGenners,

On a recent research trip to Vienna I found the siblings of
my grandfather, Max FRENKEL, after many years of wondering if he had
any. I discovered that he had three sisters and one brother. His
sisters names were Leontine QUADRATSTEIN nee FRAENKEL (AE = A with
unlaut), Mindel ENGEL nee FRAENKEL, and Regina FRAENKEL. All three
sisters as well as my grandfather perished in the Holocaust.

Leontine apparently lived for a time in Saarbrucken, Germany.
I do not know if she had any children.

Mindel had a daughter, Augustine, who married Imre OLLOP.
The daughter and her husband also perished in the Holocaust.

Regina did not marry.

Max's brother Uscher FRAENKEL married Feige KUPFERBERG.
Uscher died in Vienna in 1924. The couple had two sons, Siegfried
and Hermann. Hermann married Franziska LACHS and they had a son
Ulrich Wilhelm FRAENKEL. The sons apparently emigrated >from Vienna in
1938 and a residence record in Vienna indicates that Siegfried went
to Belgium.

Does anyone have any information on any of these family members?

Please respond to me privately at tfweiss@mit.edu.

--
Thomas Fischer Weiss
Newton, MA
USA
tfweiss@mit.edu

Researching:
FRENKEL (Buchach, Vienna); BUCHHALTER (Skalat); ENGEL (Vienna)
FISCHER (Hriskov, Schlan, Prague); FRAENKEL, FRUCHTER (Rozhnyatov, Vienna);
KATZ (Schlan); KLEPETAR (Jistebnice); MEISELS (Nadworna, Vienna);
OLLOP (Vienna) ORLIK (Pohor, Jistebnice, Benesov, Tabor)
QUADRATSTEIN (Vienna, Saarbrucken)
VODICKA (Dobronitz, Jistebnice, Benesov, Tabor)


Osrowsky, Ukraine #general

Gordon Orr <gordonor@...>
 

I saw on a 1910 map of the Austro-Hungarian Empire a town named Ostrowsky,
approx. 70 km ssw of Kiev, about 5 km west of Belaja Tserkov, which is
apparently the birhplace of my gf Oscar Ostrovsky.
I have not been able to find any other documentation of this town, including
on Shtetl- seekers.
Does anyone recognise this place ?


JewishGen Discussion Group #JewishGen Osrowsky, Ukraine #general

Gordon Orr <gordonor@...>
 

I saw on a 1910 map of the Austro-Hungarian Empire a town named Ostrowsky,
approx. 70 km ssw of Kiev, about 5 km west of Belaja Tserkov, which is
apparently the birhplace of my gf Oscar Ostrovsky.
I have not been able to find any other documentation of this town, including
on Shtetl- seekers.
Does anyone recognise this place ?


Re: Should I Call? #general

Stan Goodman <SPAM_FOILER@...>
 

On Fri, 6 May 2005 23:04:23 UTC, szome@hotmail.com (steven weiss) opined:

I have phone numbers for two JGFF researchers who have not responded to my
emails and snail mail. Should I call these persons or would that just make
these persons angry? These persons have listed names and towns that bear
relevance to my own search.
What have you got to lose?

from another point of view: If they didn't want to help, they might have
told you that. As it stands, you have no real reason to believe that they
ever saw your letters and messages. Surely you can ask them by telephone if
they are willing to share information with you.

--
Stan Goodman, Qiryat Tiv'on, Israel

Searching:
NEACHOWICZ/NOACHOWICZ, NEJMAN/NAJMAN, SURALSKI: >from Lomza Gubernia
ISMACH: >from Lomza Gubernia, Galicia, and Ukraina
HERTANU, ABRAMOVICI, LAUER: >from Dorohoi District, Romania
GRISARU, VATARU: >from Iasi, Dorohoi, and Mileanca, Romania

See my interactive family tree (requires Java 1.1.6 or better). the URL is:
http://www.hashkedim.com

For reasons connected with anti-spam/junk security, the return address is
not valid. To communicate with me, please visit my website (see the URL
above -- no Java required for this purpose) and fill in the email form
there.


Re: Murderous Medicine by Dr. Naomi Baumslag #general

Stan Goodman <SPAM_FOILER@...>
 

On Sat, 7 May 2005 00:46:09 UTC, annrab@bellsouth.net (Ann Rabinowitz)
opined:

This is a fascinating study of a little-known topic which affected many of
our relatives during the Holocaust. It underscores their suffering and
death as a result of the unethical behavior by those who ignored the
Hypocratic Oath and societal codes of ethical behavior.
The spelling error is ironic: Sometimes indeed the Hippocratic Oath is
Hypocritical.

Ann Rabinowitz
annrab@bellsouth.net
--
Message sent VIA Followup and E-Mail --
--
Stan Goodman, Qiryat Tiv'on, Israel

Searching:
NEACHOWICZ/NOACHOWICZ, NEJMAN/NAJMAN, SURALSKI: >from Lomza Gubernia
ISMACH: >from Lomza Gubernia, Galicia, and Ukraina
HERTANU, ABRAMOVICI, LAUER: >from Dorohoi District, Romania
GRISARU, VATARU: >from Iasi, Dorohoi, and Mileanca, Romania

See my interactive family tree (requires Java 1.1.6 or better). the URL is:
http://www.hashkedim.com

For reasons connected with anti-spam/junk security, the return address is
not valid. To communicate with me, please visit my website (see the URL
above -- no Java required for this purpose) and fill in the email form
there.


JewishGen Discussion Group #JewishGen Re: Should I Call? #general

Stan Goodman <SPAM_FOILER@...>
 

On Fri, 6 May 2005 23:04:23 UTC, szome@hotmail.com (steven weiss) opined:

I have phone numbers for two JGFF researchers who have not responded to my
emails and snail mail. Should I call these persons or would that just make
these persons angry? These persons have listed names and towns that bear
relevance to my own search.
What have you got to lose?

from another point of view: If they didn't want to help, they might have
told you that. As it stands, you have no real reason to believe that they
ever saw your letters and messages. Surely you can ask them by telephone if
they are willing to share information with you.

--
Stan Goodman, Qiryat Tiv'on, Israel

Searching:
NEACHOWICZ/NOACHOWICZ, NEJMAN/NAJMAN, SURALSKI: >from Lomza Gubernia
ISMACH: >from Lomza Gubernia, Galicia, and Ukraina
HERTANU, ABRAMOVICI, LAUER: >from Dorohoi District, Romania
GRISARU, VATARU: >from Iasi, Dorohoi, and Mileanca, Romania

See my interactive family tree (requires Java 1.1.6 or better). the URL is:
http://www.hashkedim.com

For reasons connected with anti-spam/junk security, the return address is
not valid. To communicate with me, please visit my website (see the URL
above -- no Java required for this purpose) and fill in the email form
there.


JewishGen Discussion Group #JewishGen Re: Murderous Medicine by Dr. Naomi Baumslag #general

Stan Goodman <SPAM_FOILER@...>
 

On Sat, 7 May 2005 00:46:09 UTC, annrab@bellsouth.net (Ann Rabinowitz)
opined:

This is a fascinating study of a little-known topic which affected many of
our relatives during the Holocaust. It underscores their suffering and
death as a result of the unethical behavior by those who ignored the
Hypocratic Oath and societal codes of ethical behavior.
The spelling error is ironic: Sometimes indeed the Hippocratic Oath is
Hypocritical.

Ann Rabinowitz
annrab@bellsouth.net
--
Message sent VIA Followup and E-Mail --
--
Stan Goodman, Qiryat Tiv'on, Israel

Searching:
NEACHOWICZ/NOACHOWICZ, NEJMAN/NAJMAN, SURALSKI: >from Lomza Gubernia
ISMACH: >from Lomza Gubernia, Galicia, and Ukraina
HERTANU, ABRAMOVICI, LAUER: >from Dorohoi District, Romania
GRISARU, VATARU: >from Iasi, Dorohoi, and Mileanca, Romania

See my interactive family tree (requires Java 1.1.6 or better). the URL is:
http://www.hashkedim.com

For reasons connected with anti-spam/junk security, the return address is
not valid. To communicate with me, please visit my website (see the URL
above -- no Java required for this purpose) and fill in the email form
there.


Torath Chaim cemetery-Pittsburgh #general

Barbara Mannlein <bsmannlein@...>
 

According toe the website of the JGS of Pittsburgh a list of completed
Pittsburgh cemeteries was transferred to JOWBR in February. Torath Chaim
Cemetery was one of those transferred,

How does one access this list? I cannot find it going through the usual way
of searching the JOWBR.

Barbara S. Mannlein
Tucson, AZ


JewishGen Discussion Group #JewishGen Torath Chaim cemetery-Pittsburgh #general

Barbara Mannlein <bsmannlein@...>
 

According toe the website of the JGS of Pittsburgh a list of completed
Pittsburgh cemeteries was transferred to JOWBR in February. Torath Chaim
Cemetery was one of those transferred,

How does one access this list? I cannot find it going through the usual way
of searching the JOWBR.

Barbara S. Mannlein
Tucson, AZ


Re: deMEZA family in Genoa, Italy #general

Bernard Kouchel <koosh@...>
 

For researchers of Sephardic genealogies- -
One of the best sources of genealogical information is available to you
whenever you logon to JewishGen's Sefard Forum.
http://www.jewishgen.org/sefardsig/SefardForum.htm
Here you can exchange information about relatives, books, language, names,
history, migrations, local customs, research techniques and the realities of
researching public records and genealogical data archives.--
--
Bernard Kouchel
bkouchel@jewishgen.org
Sefard Forum, List Manager

"Mark de Meza" <mark.demeza@btconnect.com> wrote in message
news:200505042313.ALL34917@C2bthomr06.btconnect.com.

We are a family of Sephardic Jews living in the UK. I have traced my
descendants back to 1650 in Amsterdam. Prior to that, we were in
Genoa/Genova in Italy. Do you have any idea how I could trace my
descendants
to Genoa and understand how they went there originally >from
Spain/Portugal?


JewishGen Discussion Group #JewishGen Re: deMEZA family in Genoa, Italy #general

Bernard Kouchel <koosh@...>
 

For researchers of Sephardic genealogies- -
One of the best sources of genealogical information is available to you
whenever you logon to JewishGen's Sefard Forum.
http://www.jewishgen.org/sefardsig/SefardForum.htm
Here you can exchange information about relatives, books, language, names,
history, migrations, local customs, research techniques and the realities of
researching public records and genealogical data archives.--
--
Bernard Kouchel
bkouchel@jewishgen.org
Sefard Forum, List Manager

"Mark de Meza" <mark.demeza@btconnect.com> wrote in message
news:200505042313.ALL34917@C2bthomr06.btconnect.com.

We are a family of Sephardic Jews living in the UK. I have traced my
descendants back to 1650 in Amsterdam. Prior to that, we were in
Genoa/Genova in Italy. Do you have any idea how I could trace my
descendants
to Genoa and understand how they went there originally >from
Spain/Portugal?