Date   

Re: Szirak #hungary

Bacskai Sándor <bacskaisanyi@...>
 

Dear Beth Galleto,

The 1851-1895 entries of Szirak Jewish Community are at the Nograd
County Archives in Salgotarjan, and microfilmed copies available at the
National Archives in Budapest also.
If you need post-1895 entries, the civil register books are available
in Salgotarjan.

Maybe the pre-1895 Jewish records of Bercel, Becske or Csecse
communities also may have Szirak entries.

Regards,
Sandor Bacskai


Re: Stropkov #hungary

teddyg1@...
 

Hello everybody,
Yes, this is the Rabbi of Likev.
Rgds,
Touvia (Teddy) Goldstein
http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Flats/1756

----- Original Message -----
From: "Hallie Feldman" <hallie@twincreeks.net>
To: "H-SIG" <h-sig@lyris.jewishgen.org>
Sent: Thursday, May 19, 2005 9:22 AM
Subject: Re: [h-sig] Stropkov


Hello Sandor, Melody, Touvia -

I'm wondering if part of the mystery about the Abraham Chaim Schonfelds is
that maybe there was one Abraham Chaim Schonfeld in Stropkov, and another
in Orlik?

from Teddy Goldstein's tree I have that an Abraham Chaim Schonfeld married
Leah Kreindl Goldstein. Their daughter was Hannah Mindl Schonfeld, my
greatgrandmother. Teddy you sent me this tree in 1991. While you don't
have Abraham Chaim Schonfeld's place of birth on this tree, Hannah
Schonfeld and her mother Leah were born in Orlik.
I don't have a date of birth either for the Abraham Chaim Schonfeld or for
Leah, although Leah would have been born betw 1844 and 1849. Hannah
Schonfeld was born 1864 in Orlik.

Hannah also had a brother Moishe Schonfeld, again I don't see any
birthdate for him but judging by the rest of this tree he would be born
betw 1866 and 1873. This is the Moishe Schonfeld who married Dvora Weil.
Is he the Rabbi Moishe of Likev or another Moishe Schonfeld?

Thanks,
Hallie Berliner Feldman




Bacskai Sándor wrote:

Dear Melody Amsel,

I hope it will help you that the Stropkov-born Salamon Amsel was the
sochet in Senyo and later in Nyirbogdany (both are in Szabolcs County,
Hungary). His wife Hani Schonfeld was born in Mezolaborc.
Their children: Ignatz Amsel (1867 in Senyo), Gizella (1886 in
Nyirbogdany), and Samu (1892 in Nyirbogdany).

I don't know whether Salamon Amsel was related or not to Rabbi Yitzchak
Zvi Amsel of Zborov/Stropkov.

Regards,
Sandor Bacskai
Budapest, Hungary


Subject: Schonfelds of Stropkov
From: Melody Amsel-Arieli <nomietai@yahoo.com>

My great-grandfather, Avraham Chaim Schonfeld, was the leader of the
Stropkov Jewish community
in the late 1800s. Other than this, I know nothing about him, nor have
I seen the name Schonfeld before or after in all my Stropkov research.
However,I do have two slim clues that, hopefully, ring a bell....

Can anyone help?
Thanks, Melody


Hungary SIG #Hungary Re: Szirak #hungary

Bacskai Sándor <bacskaisanyi@...>
 

Dear Beth Galleto,

The 1851-1895 entries of Szirak Jewish Community are at the Nograd
County Archives in Salgotarjan, and microfilmed copies available at the
National Archives in Budapest also.
If you need post-1895 entries, the civil register books are available
in Salgotarjan.

Maybe the pre-1895 Jewish records of Bercel, Becske or Csecse
communities also may have Szirak entries.

Regards,
Sandor Bacskai


Hungary SIG #Hungary Re: Stropkov #hungary

teddyg1@...
 

Hello everybody,
Yes, this is the Rabbi of Likev.
Rgds,
Touvia (Teddy) Goldstein
http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Flats/1756

----- Original Message -----
From: "Hallie Feldman" <hallie@twincreeks.net>
To: "H-SIG" <h-sig@lyris.jewishgen.org>
Sent: Thursday, May 19, 2005 9:22 AM
Subject: Re: [h-sig] Stropkov


Hello Sandor, Melody, Touvia -

I'm wondering if part of the mystery about the Abraham Chaim Schonfelds is
that maybe there was one Abraham Chaim Schonfeld in Stropkov, and another
in Orlik?

from Teddy Goldstein's tree I have that an Abraham Chaim Schonfeld married
Leah Kreindl Goldstein. Their daughter was Hannah Mindl Schonfeld, my
greatgrandmother. Teddy you sent me this tree in 1991. While you don't
have Abraham Chaim Schonfeld's place of birth on this tree, Hannah
Schonfeld and her mother Leah were born in Orlik.
I don't have a date of birth either for the Abraham Chaim Schonfeld or for
Leah, although Leah would have been born betw 1844 and 1849. Hannah
Schonfeld was born 1864 in Orlik.

Hannah also had a brother Moishe Schonfeld, again I don't see any
birthdate for him but judging by the rest of this tree he would be born
betw 1866 and 1873. This is the Moishe Schonfeld who married Dvora Weil.
Is he the Rabbi Moishe of Likev or another Moishe Schonfeld?

Thanks,
Hallie Berliner Feldman




Bacskai Sándor wrote:

Dear Melody Amsel,

I hope it will help you that the Stropkov-born Salamon Amsel was the
sochet in Senyo and later in Nyirbogdany (both are in Szabolcs County,
Hungary). His wife Hani Schonfeld was born in Mezolaborc.
Their children: Ignatz Amsel (1867 in Senyo), Gizella (1886 in
Nyirbogdany), and Samu (1892 in Nyirbogdany).

I don't know whether Salamon Amsel was related or not to Rabbi Yitzchak
Zvi Amsel of Zborov/Stropkov.

Regards,
Sandor Bacskai
Budapest, Hungary


Subject: Schonfelds of Stropkov
From: Melody Amsel-Arieli <nomietai@yahoo.com>

My great-grandfather, Avraham Chaim Schonfeld, was the leader of the
Stropkov Jewish community
in the late 1800s. Other than this, I know nothing about him, nor have
I seen the name Schonfeld before or after in all my Stropkov research.
However,I do have two slim clues that, hopefully, ring a bell....

Can anyone help?
Thanks, Melody


Re: Where would records from Szirak, Nograd be found? #hungary

Robert Neu
 

While anything is possible the Gazetteer of Hungary
does confirm that the records for Szrak, Nograd for
Jews were kept in Szirak & FHL Film 642845 Item 1-3
purpots to be the appropriate record. If you don't
find what you want on it, either they were not
registered or they were registered elsewhere.

Robert Neu

--- galleto@pacbell.net wrote:

Does anyone know in what archive a person could find
birth records for
Szirak, in the county of Nograd, for the period of
about 1885 to 1900?
I am aware that there is one film set of records in
the LDS library that
is supposed to be Jewish records >from 1850 to 1895
for Szirak, but I
have looked at those films and I did not find the
records I was looking
for.
A cousin is going to Hungary and if we can find out
where the correct
archive is he will search for birth records for our
grandmother and her
siblings.
Thanks in advance for any help you can provide. This
is my first posting
to this list.
Beth Galleto
Greenbrae, CA


Hungary SIG #Hungary Re: Where would records from Szirak, Nograd be found? #hungary

Robert Neu
 

While anything is possible the Gazetteer of Hungary
does confirm that the records for Szrak, Nograd for
Jews were kept in Szirak & FHL Film 642845 Item 1-3
purpots to be the appropriate record. If you don't
find what you want on it, either they were not
registered or they were registered elsewhere.

Robert Neu

--- galleto@pacbell.net wrote:

Does anyone know in what archive a person could find
birth records for
Szirak, in the county of Nograd, for the period of
about 1885 to 1900?
I am aware that there is one film set of records in
the LDS library that
is supposed to be Jewish records >from 1850 to 1895
for Szirak, but I
have looked at those films and I did not find the
records I was looking
for.
A cousin is going to Hungary and if we can find out
where the correct
archive is he will search for birth records for our
grandmother and her
siblings.
Thanks in advance for any help you can provide. This
is my first posting
to this list.
Beth Galleto
Greenbrae, CA


Re: OBERNIK family in Beroun #austria-czech

Celia Male <celiamale@...>
 

Katrina Sorauer writes: I have been trying to find out
what happened to the family of my ggfather - Adolf
OBERNIK and his wife, Augusta, born ROUBITCHEK.
They were the parents of my grandmother, Stefanie
KRAUS, born OBERNIK. The name OBERNIK just does not
come up anywhere at all and all research ends in a
dead end lane. ... The only person by the name OBERNIK
I found in the entire web is Sam OBERNIK, a singer,
who seems to have been born in Ireland of Czech and
Spanish parents. However, I cannot contact Sam....so I
cannot find out if.. part of ... the family in any
way.

It is true there are 179,000 references to OBERNIK on
the www. But in an advanced search [remove "Sam"] you
cut that down to 7.970 and the following are revealed:

1: Jewish Encyclopedia - Meir Obornik who was known as
Obernik see: http://tinyurl.com/ajefe

He was a contributor to the periodical "Ha-Me'assef,"
I followed this up by a search of burials in Vienna
and here he is plus Simon, both buried at
Wahringerfriedhof, Vienna;

Obernik Mayer age 44 died on 09.11.1808
Obernik Simon age 19 died on 24.10.1823 4 739

2. OBERNIK, Margalit: Ein Brief aus Palastina, S. 738
[J 5 (1920/21)]

3. Ephraim Kishon has even written a short story
called: Herr Obernik bestellt {Herr Obernik orders -
{as in a restaurant}.

Could Kishon have invented the name? He must have
known at least one OBERNIK! The next line is: Jeden
Abend weiche Eier {Every night, soft boiled-eggs}.

I am not sure if the two go together!

4. OBERNIK, Tony - fund raising

5. OBERNIK Nicky and Markus in Ireland with telephone
numbers listed -also OBERNIK - Nicholas and Anthony -
members of a named golf club in Dublin

6. OBERNIK Herr, a teacher in Germany - 2001

7. Two genealogical [Christian?] references in
Germany;
see: http://tinyurl.com/e3wz5

8. German physicist H. OBERNIK [1961 cited papers].

9. Lubos OBERNIK - a muscle builder in ?

Other listings found on the internet:

10. Letter to the Stars: Could this be a clue to the
name? Holocaust victim >from Austria: Charlotte
Wobernik born 22.05.1869

11. UK listings on genealogical internet site:

Baby born in London Nov 1994 with mother's maiden name
OBERNIK: Billy DUNMORE - Hackney, London

Gustav Adolph OBERNIK, born in ?, died in Westminster,
London aged 72 Jan 1984

12. US listings on genealogical internet site:

There was an OBORNIK family in the Bronx >from Russia.
in the 1930 census

also:

Obernick? [sic]?, Andrew, Mount Olive, Macoupin,
Illinois abt 1881 Austria

Johanna Obernik 05 Mar 1904 Sheboygan

13. There are many Jewish OBORNIKS listed in the
Jewish Records Indexing {JRI-Pl} database - from
Plock, Radom, Kielce.


Negative findings:

a. It is may be significant that the only listing on
the JGFF is Katrina's.

b. There are no OBERNIK in 1793 census of Bohemia
[Prague, Moravia and Silesia are not included in this
search].

c. Surpringly, there are no OBERNIKS or OBORNIKS in
the Yad vashem database. It would be wonderful - and
rather incredible - to think that all the families
from Poland/Galicia with that name escaped.


Conclusion:

It appears that the name OBERNIK and variants is also
found amongst Christian families in Germany. Obernik
is a location in Germany [Posen].

I agree OBERNIKs are sparse, but they are more
plentiful than the name KELBIG I am looking for! What
happened to the Polish/Galician OBORNIKs is a mystery
- unless they are sad, nameless, victims of the
holocaust or they changed their name. And names can
also die out, if the female line predominates.

Celia Male [UK]


Austria-Czech SIG #Austria-Czech Re: OBERNIK family in Beroun #austria-czech

Celia Male <celiamale@...>
 

Katrina Sorauer writes: I have been trying to find out
what happened to the family of my ggfather - Adolf
OBERNIK and his wife, Augusta, born ROUBITCHEK.
They were the parents of my grandmother, Stefanie
KRAUS, born OBERNIK. The name OBERNIK just does not
come up anywhere at all and all research ends in a
dead end lane. ... The only person by the name OBERNIK
I found in the entire web is Sam OBERNIK, a singer,
who seems to have been born in Ireland of Czech and
Spanish parents. However, I cannot contact Sam....so I
cannot find out if.. part of ... the family in any
way.

It is true there are 179,000 references to OBERNIK on
the www. But in an advanced search [remove "Sam"] you
cut that down to 7.970 and the following are revealed:

1: Jewish Encyclopedia - Meir Obornik who was known as
Obernik see: http://tinyurl.com/ajefe

He was a contributor to the periodical "Ha-Me'assef,"
I followed this up by a search of burials in Vienna
and here he is plus Simon, both buried at
Wahringerfriedhof, Vienna;

Obernik Mayer age 44 died on 09.11.1808
Obernik Simon age 19 died on 24.10.1823 4 739

2. OBERNIK, Margalit: Ein Brief aus Palastina, S. 738
[J 5 (1920/21)]

3. Ephraim Kishon has even written a short story
called: Herr Obernik bestellt {Herr Obernik orders -
{as in a restaurant}.

Could Kishon have invented the name? He must have
known at least one OBERNIK! The next line is: Jeden
Abend weiche Eier {Every night, soft boiled-eggs}.

I am not sure if the two go together!

4. OBERNIK, Tony - fund raising

5. OBERNIK Nicky and Markus in Ireland with telephone
numbers listed -also OBERNIK - Nicholas and Anthony -
members of a named golf club in Dublin

6. OBERNIK Herr, a teacher in Germany - 2001

7. Two genealogical [Christian?] references in
Germany;
see: http://tinyurl.com/e3wz5

8. German physicist H. OBERNIK [1961 cited papers].

9. Lubos OBERNIK - a muscle builder in ?

Other listings found on the internet:

10. Letter to the Stars: Could this be a clue to the
name? Holocaust victim >from Austria: Charlotte
Wobernik born 22.05.1869

11. UK listings on genealogical internet site:

Baby born in London Nov 1994 with mother's maiden name
OBERNIK: Billy DUNMORE - Hackney, London

Gustav Adolph OBERNIK, born in ?, died in Westminster,
London aged 72 Jan 1984

12. US listings on genealogical internet site:

There was an OBORNIK family in the Bronx >from Russia.
in the 1930 census

also:

Obernick? [sic]?, Andrew, Mount Olive, Macoupin,
Illinois abt 1881 Austria

Johanna Obernik 05 Mar 1904 Sheboygan

13. There are many Jewish OBORNIKS listed in the
Jewish Records Indexing {JRI-Pl} database - from
Plock, Radom, Kielce.


Negative findings:

a. It is may be significant that the only listing on
the JGFF is Katrina's.

b. There are no OBERNIK in 1793 census of Bohemia
[Prague, Moravia and Silesia are not included in this
search].

c. Surpringly, there are no OBERNIKS or OBORNIKS in
the Yad vashem database. It would be wonderful - and
rather incredible - to think that all the families
from Poland/Galicia with that name escaped.


Conclusion:

It appears that the name OBERNIK and variants is also
found amongst Christian families in Germany. Obernik
is a location in Germany [Posen].

I agree OBERNIKs are sparse, but they are more
plentiful than the name KELBIG I am looking for! What
happened to the Polish/Galician OBORNIKs is a mystery
- unless they are sad, nameless, victims of the
holocaust or they changed their name. And names can
also die out, if the female line predominates.

Celia Male [UK]


Location of Neuhof bei Wien Nieder Oesterreich #austria-czech

Harvey Finberg <hjfinberg@...>
 

I have a Meldezettel that lists a greatgreataunt as being born in Neuhof
bei Wien Nieder Oesterreich.
I have tried a number of maps with no luck, can anyone give me the exact
location of this town or part of Vienna?
Vera Finberg
Fairfax, VA

THIEBEN- Rousinov/Rakovnik, Czech Republic
KOHNER - Vseruby, Czech Republic/Budapest/Vienna
STIEDRY - Golcuv Jenikov, Czech Republic
SYNEK - Mlada Vozice, Czech Republic
ABELES - Luchovice, Czech Republic
ROUBITCHEK - Stasov?, Czech Republic


Austria-Czech SIG #Austria-Czech Location of Neuhof bei Wien Nieder Oesterreich #austria-czech

Harvey Finberg <hjfinberg@...>
 

I have a Meldezettel that lists a greatgreataunt as being born in Neuhof
bei Wien Nieder Oesterreich.
I have tried a number of maps with no luck, can anyone give me the exact
location of this town or part of Vienna?
Vera Finberg
Fairfax, VA

THIEBEN- Rousinov/Rakovnik, Czech Republic
KOHNER - Vseruby, Czech Republic/Budapest/Vienna
STIEDRY - Golcuv Jenikov, Czech Republic
SYNEK - Mlada Vozice, Czech Republic
ABELES - Luchovice, Czech Republic
ROUBITCHEK - Stasov?, Czech Republic


Vienna Cemetery Records #austria-czech

bud484bg@...
 

In doing my family research, I am really curious as to the arrangements
in Vienna for Jewish burials circa 1894.

Were family members involved? Was there a Jewish Community Burial
Society? Is there a source for this information?

Thanks.

Beatrice Markel
Redondo Beach, California

Researching: MARKEL/SEHR/GOLDBERG: LEMBERG, VIENNA


Austria-Czech SIG #Austria-Czech Vienna Cemetery Records #austria-czech

bud484bg@...
 

In doing my family research, I am really curious as to the arrangements
in Vienna for Jewish burials circa 1894.

Were family members involved? Was there a Jewish Community Burial
Society? Is there a source for this information?

Thanks.

Beatrice Markel
Redondo Beach, California

Researching: MARKEL/SEHR/GOLDBERG: LEMBERG, VIENNA


historic trip to Austerlitz/ Slavkov/June 2 #austria-czech

Vitdoc@...
 

I am joining one of the many scroll congregations that I work with in the
USA/UK for a historic trip to Austerlitz/ Slavkov that leaves by bus on
Thursday AM June 2 >from Prague. I have a schedule of events that have
been lovingly planned to celebrate the life of the last survivor in this
town (a lady named Ruth Priess) and the Bat Mitzvah of a young girl >from
the UK (Hana Pike). This will commence on the 5th of June. We will visit
many places in Moravia between the 2nd and the 5th. If anyone >from the
SIG is in the area of Austerlitz on 5th, I would gladly share the agenda
of events I will attending. It will be a very short visit for me --
one week. E-mail me privately for details.

I have one evening in Prague and I would love to put names to
faces of those in the SIG who live in the Prague area. Please e-mail me
if there is an interest for a get together. Our meeting in London in
October was very rewarding.
Thanks
Susan Boyer
Sherman Oaks CA


Austria-Czech SIG #Austria-Czech historic trip to Austerlitz/ Slavkov/June 2 #austria-czech

Vitdoc@...
 

I am joining one of the many scroll congregations that I work with in the
USA/UK for a historic trip to Austerlitz/ Slavkov that leaves by bus on
Thursday AM June 2 >from Prague. I have a schedule of events that have
been lovingly planned to celebrate the life of the last survivor in this
town (a lady named Ruth Priess) and the Bat Mitzvah of a young girl >from
the UK (Hana Pike). This will commence on the 5th of June. We will visit
many places in Moravia between the 2nd and the 5th. If anyone >from the
SIG is in the area of Austerlitz on 5th, I would gladly share the agenda
of events I will attending. It will be a very short visit for me --
one week. E-mail me privately for details.

I have one evening in Prague and I would love to put names to
faces of those in the SIG who live in the Prague area. Please e-mail me
if there is an interest for a get together. Our meeting in London in
October was very rewarding.
Thanks
Susan Boyer
Sherman Oaks CA


"Jewish Families in Galicia" - Conversions KAMMERMAN #galicia

Mark Jacobson
 

Hi

I was very interested in Pamela Weisberger's message
about a list of Jews >from Galicia who converted to
Christianity, especially after her message mentioned a
KAMMERMAN family >from Drohobycz, a family and town
very important to me and my research - my KAMERMAN
grandfather's surname and place of birth. I was not
entirely familiar with these particular KAMMERMANs but
checked my printout >from JRI Poland of the index of
Drohobycz records. I was able to find many of these
people in the indexed records. Now seeing the original
pdf file >from Pamela I have been able to do
comparisons and will report my findings. It raises
questions - most importantly why all these people are
on this list, since they were all living (and dying)
as Jews up to at least 1901 and are listed in Jewish
records for Drohobycz, and Manfred Daum's listing of
them has no reference to any Christian records as a
source for conversion information, only the names
Philipp and Mathilde Daum. The father of this
KAMMERMANN family, Moses KAMMERMANN's death is even
listed in the JRI Index, so it is highly unlikely he
ever converted. Here is a comparison of information
from Manfred Daum and information >from JRI Poland and
my conclusions. Mr. Daum lists events that happen to
this family up to 1914 and births before 1877 and
JRI-Poland only has births beginning in 1877 and goes
up to 1901, but there is still much information for
comparison.

“Judische Familien In Galizien” (Jewish Families in
Galicia), >from Manfred Daum contains information on
the family of Moses and Kidel KAMMERMANN from
Ugartsberg, Drohobycz district. It lists:
Moses, died 1896, his wife
Kidel, who it says died in 1914 and was buried in
1896? That must be a typo.
their daughters:
1. unknown female b. 1871
2. Chaje, 1875-1914, married to Rachmil FLACHS with
children:
a. Abraham b. 1890
b. Laja b. 1894
c. Schaindl b. 1897
d. Wilhelmine b. 1898

3. Amalie, 1878-1910 married to Isaak SOBEL with
children:
a. Abraham b. 1900
b. Aaron b. 1902
c. Josef b. 1905
d. Israel b. 1906
e. Henriette b. 1908
It also lists a second marriage for Isaak SOBEL to
Rahel HAFER.
4. Regina, b. 1880, married to Leiser GOLDSTEIN
5. Rebecka, b. 1882, married to Majer POLLAK

It curiously lists all these people as Jews, even the
children of Amalie and Chaje, and Isaak SOBEL's second
wife and the children with her, and I can find no
reference to anyone in this family converting to
Christianity in Manfred Daum's information.

JRI-Poland Drohobycz AGAD records, births 1877-1901,
deaths 1852-1901 (also two listings in Komarno AGAD
death records) has many records for this family.

Records for the family of Moses KAMERMAN/KAMMERMANN,
all events listed as taking place in Ugartsberg.

Moses KAMERMANN son of Leib Wolf and Ruchel Laja, died
in 1899 at age 68. There is no evidence here that
Moses converted, and if his death is listed here he
must have been buried in the Jewish cemetery.

Moses KAMERMAN and Gittel SCHEININGER had three
children born in the timeframe of the index (plus one
more >from death records):
Leib 1877-1879 (listed in Komarno town deaths)
Malke b. 1879
Henie b. 1882 (1895 death listed in Komarno town
deaths)
Rebeka b. 1885

Only daughters Chaje and Malke were married and had
children in the timeframe of the index, but they
basically match the names and information in Daum's
report, and all are Jews, listed in the Jewish records
of Drohobycz.

Rachmiel FLAKS and Chaje KAMERMAN in Ugartsberg, had
children listed:
Abraham Seinwel b. 1892
Lajcia b. 1894
Jozef b. 1896
Scheindel Rifke b. 1897
Moses b. 1899, died 1900
Sara Mina (not Wilhelmine as per Mr. Daum, although
that might be a clue to a later conversion?) b. 1901

Izak SOBEL and Malke KAMERMAN in Ugartsberg, had 1
child listed:
Abraham Samuel b. 1900

At this point in my research I have not made a
connection between my KAMERMAN family and this
particular KAMERMAN family, but I do not doubt there
is some connection - the families lived nearby and
shared a surname which primarily exists only around
Drohobycz/Boryslaw, nearby Sambor, and Przemysl. This
project has peaked my interest in this family. I have
traced my KAMERMAN line in Drohobycz back to my
grandfather's g-g-grandfather, Ichel KAMERMAN, who
lived sometime in the late 1700's to early 1800's,
having two known children around 1800.

As you see, vital events for this family of Moses
KAMERMAN occur in Jewish records up to the end of the
index in 1901, KAMERMANs born and dying as Jews in the
town of Ugartsberg, Drohobycz, Galicia, following
traditional naming patterns, and at least up to 1901
showing no evidence of conversion. I hope Mr. Daum can
explain these people being on his list as converts. I
suspect Mr. Daum is related to this family through a
branch that converted at some point, but that point is
definitely after 1901, definitely after the death of
the patriarch Moses and two documented marriages,
probably after all 4 listed marriages based on the
names supplied by Mr. Daum, so I question why these
people are all listed in this document. If anyone has
any insight into the particulars of this family please
let me know. Even without a direct connection to this
family, I feel a need to show that at least most of
this family were not converts, they were a Jewish
family and probably lived and died as Jews in Galicia,
the same as many of our families did. The presence of
so many KAMMERMANs on this list of converts gives the
mistaken impression that they were a significant part
of converted Jews in Galicia, but I have found through
JRI indexed Jewish records and close examination of
Mr. Daum's document that all KAMERMANs listed in this
document connect to the same family of Moses and
Gittel in Ugartsberg and many, if not all, the people
listed did not convert to Christianity, remaining
Jews. I hope Mr. Daum's document does not spread false
impressions of who converted to Christianity, similar
to the controversy over Mormon baptisms of Holocaust
victims etc. I also hope I have at least brought up
some questions that need to be answered about this
family, and perhaps other families listed as converts.

Mark Jacobson
Boca Raton, FL





DOGULOV/DOVGALEVSKY - Belaya Tserkov/Kiev Ukraine;
COHEN/KANA/KAHAN - Belaya Tserkov, Ukraine;
JACOBSON - Polotsk, Belarus; COBLENTZ - Polotsk, Belarus;
KAMERMAN - Drohobycz, Galicia;
KOPPEL - Stebnik/Drohobycz, Galicia;
JACOBI - Stratyn/Rohatyn, Galicia; ROTHLEIN - Stratyn/Rohatyn, Galicia;
TUCHFELD - Rzeszow/Stryj/Lvov, Galicia; GOLDSTEIN - Ranizow, Galicia


Gesher Galicia SIG #Galicia "Jewish Families in Galicia" - Conversions KAMMERMAN #galicia

Mark Jacobson
 

Hi

I was very interested in Pamela Weisberger's message
about a list of Jews >from Galicia who converted to
Christianity, especially after her message mentioned a
KAMMERMAN family >from Drohobycz, a family and town
very important to me and my research - my KAMERMAN
grandfather's surname and place of birth. I was not
entirely familiar with these particular KAMMERMANs but
checked my printout >from JRI Poland of the index of
Drohobycz records. I was able to find many of these
people in the indexed records. Now seeing the original
pdf file >from Pamela I have been able to do
comparisons and will report my findings. It raises
questions - most importantly why all these people are
on this list, since they were all living (and dying)
as Jews up to at least 1901 and are listed in Jewish
records for Drohobycz, and Manfred Daum's listing of
them has no reference to any Christian records as a
source for conversion information, only the names
Philipp and Mathilde Daum. The father of this
KAMMERMANN family, Moses KAMMERMANN's death is even
listed in the JRI Index, so it is highly unlikely he
ever converted. Here is a comparison of information
from Manfred Daum and information >from JRI Poland and
my conclusions. Mr. Daum lists events that happen to
this family up to 1914 and births before 1877 and
JRI-Poland only has births beginning in 1877 and goes
up to 1901, but there is still much information for
comparison.

“Judische Familien In Galizien” (Jewish Families in
Galicia), >from Manfred Daum contains information on
the family of Moses and Kidel KAMMERMANN from
Ugartsberg, Drohobycz district. It lists:
Moses, died 1896, his wife
Kidel, who it says died in 1914 and was buried in
1896? That must be a typo.
their daughters:
1. unknown female b. 1871
2. Chaje, 1875-1914, married to Rachmil FLACHS with
children:
a. Abraham b. 1890
b. Laja b. 1894
c. Schaindl b. 1897
d. Wilhelmine b. 1898

3. Amalie, 1878-1910 married to Isaak SOBEL with
children:
a. Abraham b. 1900
b. Aaron b. 1902
c. Josef b. 1905
d. Israel b. 1906
e. Henriette b. 1908
It also lists a second marriage for Isaak SOBEL to
Rahel HAFER.
4. Regina, b. 1880, married to Leiser GOLDSTEIN
5. Rebecka, b. 1882, married to Majer POLLAK

It curiously lists all these people as Jews, even the
children of Amalie and Chaje, and Isaak SOBEL's second
wife and the children with her, and I can find no
reference to anyone in this family converting to
Christianity in Manfred Daum's information.

JRI-Poland Drohobycz AGAD records, births 1877-1901,
deaths 1852-1901 (also two listings in Komarno AGAD
death records) has many records for this family.

Records for the family of Moses KAMERMAN/KAMMERMANN,
all events listed as taking place in Ugartsberg.

Moses KAMERMANN son of Leib Wolf and Ruchel Laja, died
in 1899 at age 68. There is no evidence here that
Moses converted, and if his death is listed here he
must have been buried in the Jewish cemetery.

Moses KAMERMAN and Gittel SCHEININGER had three
children born in the timeframe of the index (plus one
more >from death records):
Leib 1877-1879 (listed in Komarno town deaths)
Malke b. 1879
Henie b. 1882 (1895 death listed in Komarno town
deaths)
Rebeka b. 1885

Only daughters Chaje and Malke were married and had
children in the timeframe of the index, but they
basically match the names and information in Daum's
report, and all are Jews, listed in the Jewish records
of Drohobycz.

Rachmiel FLAKS and Chaje KAMERMAN in Ugartsberg, had
children listed:
Abraham Seinwel b. 1892
Lajcia b. 1894
Jozef b. 1896
Scheindel Rifke b. 1897
Moses b. 1899, died 1900
Sara Mina (not Wilhelmine as per Mr. Daum, although
that might be a clue to a later conversion?) b. 1901

Izak SOBEL and Malke KAMERMAN in Ugartsberg, had 1
child listed:
Abraham Samuel b. 1900

At this point in my research I have not made a
connection between my KAMERMAN family and this
particular KAMERMAN family, but I do not doubt there
is some connection - the families lived nearby and
shared a surname which primarily exists only around
Drohobycz/Boryslaw, nearby Sambor, and Przemysl. This
project has peaked my interest in this family. I have
traced my KAMERMAN line in Drohobycz back to my
grandfather's g-g-grandfather, Ichel KAMERMAN, who
lived sometime in the late 1700's to early 1800's,
having two known children around 1800.

As you see, vital events for this family of Moses
KAMERMAN occur in Jewish records up to the end of the
index in 1901, KAMERMANs born and dying as Jews in the
town of Ugartsberg, Drohobycz, Galicia, following
traditional naming patterns, and at least up to 1901
showing no evidence of conversion. I hope Mr. Daum can
explain these people being on his list as converts. I
suspect Mr. Daum is related to this family through a
branch that converted at some point, but that point is
definitely after 1901, definitely after the death of
the patriarch Moses and two documented marriages,
probably after all 4 listed marriages based on the
names supplied by Mr. Daum, so I question why these
people are all listed in this document. If anyone has
any insight into the particulars of this family please
let me know. Even without a direct connection to this
family, I feel a need to show that at least most of
this family were not converts, they were a Jewish
family and probably lived and died as Jews in Galicia,
the same as many of our families did. The presence of
so many KAMMERMANs on this list of converts gives the
mistaken impression that they were a significant part
of converted Jews in Galicia, but I have found through
JRI indexed Jewish records and close examination of
Mr. Daum's document that all KAMERMANs listed in this
document connect to the same family of Moses and
Gittel in Ugartsberg and many, if not all, the people
listed did not convert to Christianity, remaining
Jews. I hope Mr. Daum's document does not spread false
impressions of who converted to Christianity, similar
to the controversy over Mormon baptisms of Holocaust
victims etc. I also hope I have at least brought up
some questions that need to be answered about this
family, and perhaps other families listed as converts.

Mark Jacobson
Boca Raton, FL





DOGULOV/DOVGALEVSKY - Belaya Tserkov/Kiev Ukraine;
COHEN/KANA/KAHAN - Belaya Tserkov, Ukraine;
JACOBSON - Polotsk, Belarus; COBLENTZ - Polotsk, Belarus;
KAMERMAN - Drohobycz, Galicia;
KOPPEL - Stebnik/Drohobycz, Galicia;
JACOBI - Stratyn/Rohatyn, Galicia; ROTHLEIN - Stratyn/Rohatyn, Galicia;
TUCHFELD - Rzeszow/Stryj/Lvov, Galicia; GOLDSTEIN - Ranizow, Galicia


"Jewish Families in Galicia" - Conversions/KAMMERMAN #galicia

Pamela Weisberger <pweisberger@...>
 

Regarding Mark Jacobson's analaysis of the Kammerman records in “Judische
Familien In Galizien” (Jewish Families in Galicia) and his wondering:

"...why all these people are on this list, since they were all living (and
dying) as Jews up to at least 1901 and are listed in Jewish records for
Drohobycz, and Manfred Daum's listing of them has no reference to any
Christian records as a source for conversion information.>>

He makes special mention of MOSES KAMMERMAN, his wife, KIDEL, married in
1870, living in House Number 22 in Ugartsberg (Wypucki), Galicia and their
children:

1. unknown female b. 1871
2. Chaje, 1875-1914, married to Rachmil FLACHS with children:
3. Amalie, 1878-1910 m. Isaak Sobel in 1900 (5 children), Sobel remarried
Rahel Hafer
4. Regina b. 1880 m. Leiser Goldstein
5. Rebecka b. 1882 m. Maier Pollak in 1900

....as they are listed in this document. No reference is made as to their
having converted >from Judaism, and he is perplexed by their appearance. I
think I have a solution to his mystery. If one checks the Daum's index,
there is another entry for the name KAMMERMAN:

JOHANN SANTRUCKET, Reformed Church (Protestant) born in 1870:

Place/Occupation: In 1895 leased a restaurant in Manater Letnianski/Galicia.
In 1896 and 1897 he was a teacher in Ugartsberg (Wypucki) in house Number
23.

Illigitmate Connection to: Female (name unknown) KAMMERMAN, born in 1871 in
Ugartsberg (Wypucki)

Comments: Later, Johann Santrucek ran off with the daughter of Moses
Kammerman and they never came back.

Sources: >from the book of Galician Mennonites in charge of record keeping
at that time. >from the town of Josefsberg (today Korosnica) : Parish
Register of Christenings-Evangelical Reformed Church, Ugartsberg: Parish
Register-Evangelical Reformed Church, and personal recollections by
Mathilde Daum (nee Jacobi) and Phillip Daum.

This unidentified (no given name) daughter of Moses Kammerman, is the same
one listed in the Kammerman Family entry cited by Mark. One can clearly
draw the conclusion that Johann Santrucek employed as a teacher in House
Number 22 became acquainted with Ms. Kammerman, living next door (across the
road?) in House Number 23 (both in their early 20s), that this acquaintance
lead to a relationship, and the two ran off together, hence the notation of
an "illigitemate relationship."

This is not an unfamiliar set of events, and we hear so many stories of
children in similar circumstance becoming "dead" to their families, that
this might have been the case of this daughter.

Therefore, we need to bear in mind that not Jewish person who is named in
this file represents someone who converted >from Judaism. In the case of the
Family Kammerman, they are apparently descendants of someone who is
referred to in a church record, through anecdotal information, or both.
There are Christians today who discover that they have Jewish roots, so
their family trees, if accurate, will show records of entire Jewish
families. I believe this is the case with the listing for the family of
Moses Kammerman and his five children.

In fact, Mr. Daum has created a family tree for the entire Jewish family of
Kammermans, as a result of several church record notations dealing with the
oldest Kammerman daughter who ran away with a non-Jewish man. He lists the
husbands of all of Moses Kammerman's daughters, many of his grandchildren,
and even the second wife of one these husbands. No doubt, he is connected
to this family.

This is a cautionary lesson in not jumping to conclusions until we have all
the evidence. What would we think if we mailed one of our family trees to a
non-Jew who was connected to us? Would they be shocked and dismayed to
discover that they were connected to Jewish relatives? Would they accuse us
of trying to make them Jews? As distasteful as it may be to some people,
accuracy should trump concerns every time. To equate this list to the
Mormon's baptisms of Jews does Mr. Daum a disservice.

When Mark asks:

<<The presence of so many KAMMERMANs on this list of converts gives the
mistaken impression that they were a significant part of converted Jews in
Galicia.>>

Again I must emphasize that this is not "a list of converts," not should it
be portrayed as such. The title is "Jewish Families in Galicia"---not
"Converted Jewish Families." If I gave that impression in my first posting,
I'd like to correct that now. What this file DOES represent is either
appearances of Jewish names in church records, in personal recollections, or
both. Some definitely ARE conversions, but others are simply family trees
of Jews who remained Jews, but were connected, in some way, to Christians,
either through conversion or marriage.

Based on the detailed notations in this file, I am convinced that Manfred
Daum has thoroughly documented his findings. It is up to us to decipher
them and--because this is written in German--get complete and accurate
translations of ALL the notes, before figuring out why certain Jewish
families (those who did not actually convert) make appearances on this list.
For people who have come upon dead ends in their research, these records
might provide the answers.

Also keep in mind...Daum did not go through every parish register in
Galicia. This file reminds us that looking through church records, many of
which have been microfilmed by the Mormons, while a longshot, might provide
some unexpected information.

Pamela Weisberger
Research Coordinator, Gesher Galicia
Santa Monica, CA
pweisberger@hotmail.com


Gesher Galicia SIG #Galicia "Jewish Families in Galicia" - Conversions/KAMMERMAN #galicia

Pamela Weisberger <pweisberger@...>
 

Regarding Mark Jacobson's analaysis of the Kammerman records in “Judische
Familien In Galizien” (Jewish Families in Galicia) and his wondering:

"...why all these people are on this list, since they were all living (and
dying) as Jews up to at least 1901 and are listed in Jewish records for
Drohobycz, and Manfred Daum's listing of them has no reference to any
Christian records as a source for conversion information.>>

He makes special mention of MOSES KAMMERMAN, his wife, KIDEL, married in
1870, living in House Number 22 in Ugartsberg (Wypucki), Galicia and their
children:

1. unknown female b. 1871
2. Chaje, 1875-1914, married to Rachmil FLACHS with children:
3. Amalie, 1878-1910 m. Isaak Sobel in 1900 (5 children), Sobel remarried
Rahel Hafer
4. Regina b. 1880 m. Leiser Goldstein
5. Rebecka b. 1882 m. Maier Pollak in 1900

....as they are listed in this document. No reference is made as to their
having converted >from Judaism, and he is perplexed by their appearance. I
think I have a solution to his mystery. If one checks the Daum's index,
there is another entry for the name KAMMERMAN:

JOHANN SANTRUCKET, Reformed Church (Protestant) born in 1870:

Place/Occupation: In 1895 leased a restaurant in Manater Letnianski/Galicia.
In 1896 and 1897 he was a teacher in Ugartsberg (Wypucki) in house Number
23.

Illigitmate Connection to: Female (name unknown) KAMMERMAN, born in 1871 in
Ugartsberg (Wypucki)

Comments: Later, Johann Santrucek ran off with the daughter of Moses
Kammerman and they never came back.

Sources: >from the book of Galician Mennonites in charge of record keeping
at that time. >from the town of Josefsberg (today Korosnica) : Parish
Register of Christenings-Evangelical Reformed Church, Ugartsberg: Parish
Register-Evangelical Reformed Church, and personal recollections by
Mathilde Daum (nee Jacobi) and Phillip Daum.

This unidentified (no given name) daughter of Moses Kammerman, is the same
one listed in the Kammerman Family entry cited by Mark. One can clearly
draw the conclusion that Johann Santrucek employed as a teacher in House
Number 22 became acquainted with Ms. Kammerman, living next door (across the
road?) in House Number 23 (both in their early 20s), that this acquaintance
lead to a relationship, and the two ran off together, hence the notation of
an "illigitemate relationship."

This is not an unfamiliar set of events, and we hear so many stories of
children in similar circumstance becoming "dead" to their families, that
this might have been the case of this daughter.

Therefore, we need to bear in mind that not Jewish person who is named in
this file represents someone who converted >from Judaism. In the case of the
Family Kammerman, they are apparently descendants of someone who is
referred to in a church record, through anecdotal information, or both.
There are Christians today who discover that they have Jewish roots, so
their family trees, if accurate, will show records of entire Jewish
families. I believe this is the case with the listing for the family of
Moses Kammerman and his five children.

In fact, Mr. Daum has created a family tree for the entire Jewish family of
Kammermans, as a result of several church record notations dealing with the
oldest Kammerman daughter who ran away with a non-Jewish man. He lists the
husbands of all of Moses Kammerman's daughters, many of his grandchildren,
and even the second wife of one these husbands. No doubt, he is connected
to this family.

This is a cautionary lesson in not jumping to conclusions until we have all
the evidence. What would we think if we mailed one of our family trees to a
non-Jew who was connected to us? Would they be shocked and dismayed to
discover that they were connected to Jewish relatives? Would they accuse us
of trying to make them Jews? As distasteful as it may be to some people,
accuracy should trump concerns every time. To equate this list to the
Mormon's baptisms of Jews does Mr. Daum a disservice.

When Mark asks:

<<The presence of so many KAMMERMANs on this list of converts gives the
mistaken impression that they were a significant part of converted Jews in
Galicia.>>

Again I must emphasize that this is not "a list of converts," not should it
be portrayed as such. The title is "Jewish Families in Galicia"---not
"Converted Jewish Families." If I gave that impression in my first posting,
I'd like to correct that now. What this file DOES represent is either
appearances of Jewish names in church records, in personal recollections, or
both. Some definitely ARE conversions, but others are simply family trees
of Jews who remained Jews, but were connected, in some way, to Christians,
either through conversion or marriage.

Based on the detailed notations in this file, I am convinced that Manfred
Daum has thoroughly documented his findings. It is up to us to decipher
them and--because this is written in German--get complete and accurate
translations of ALL the notes, before figuring out why certain Jewish
families (those who did not actually convert) make appearances on this list.
For people who have come upon dead ends in their research, these records
might provide the answers.

Also keep in mind...Daum did not go through every parish register in
Galicia. This file reminds us that looking through church records, many of
which have been microfilmed by the Mormons, while a longshot, might provide
some unexpected information.

Pamela Weisberger
Research Coordinator, Gesher Galicia
Santa Monica, CA
pweisberger@hotmail.com


Sokal, Ukraine. #galicia

Gabriela Khoury <gabriela_k25@...>
 

Dear All,

Would anyone be able to tell me if there is a special interest group or a
specific website on the town Sokal in the Ukraine.

If you have any information on this town could you please email me on
gabriela_k25@hotmail.com

Any help would be greatly appreciated,

Thank you,

Gabriela Khoury.


Researching-
Wielkie Oczy: WOLFUSS, WOLFUS.
Sokal: WOLFUSS, WOLFUS.


Gesher Galicia SIG #Galicia Sokal, Ukraine. #galicia

Gabriela Khoury <gabriela_k25@...>
 

Dear All,

Would anyone be able to tell me if there is a special interest group or a
specific website on the town Sokal in the Ukraine.

If you have any information on this town could you please email me on
gabriela_k25@hotmail.com

Any help would be greatly appreciated,

Thank you,

Gabriela Khoury.


Researching-
Wielkie Oczy: WOLFUSS, WOLFUS.
Sokal: WOLFUSS, WOLFUS.