Date   

Re: age of first marriage varied #general

Judith Romney Wegner
 

Bert Lazerow wrote:

Someone wrote:
<though it is surprising that, in 300 CE this young lady had reached
the age of 22 without being married off!>
Jewish marriage customs have varied considerably over time
and place. In 1850 in Russia or 1950 in America, this would be
surprising. In 1900 in Russia or 2000 in America, it would not be
surprising. One needs to know much more about the customs
of the time and place to form a judgment about how unusual such
a personal decision might be.
Remember that America is the most marrying country in
the world, and the period 1946-1960 was America's most uxorious
time period.
Bert
Dear Bert,

I'm don't quite understand why your response to my comment focused
exclusively on the 19th and 20th centuries, when I was explicitly
discussing the case of a young woman who had lived and died in the
third century CE! In case you missed that fact, here's a
clarification. My comment referred strictly to the time and place
under discussion and to both Jewish customs and to Jewish customary
law in particular. >from the young girl's standpoint, marriage was
decidedly not "a personal decision" as you characterized it! Girls
in most if not all cultures back then were routinely married off by
their fathers at an early age (unless for some reason no husband
could be found for the unfortunate young lady).

In the specific case of Jews (at least, of the small percentage known
to have followed the rules of the sages at the time), the Mishnah
(edited c. 225 CE in Syria-Palestina, as the Romans renamed the Land
of Israel after destroying the Temple and kicking the Jews out of
Jerusalem in 70 CE ) specifically established a special six-month
period between the ages of 12 and 12 1/2, during which a girl was
legally defined as a na'arah ("pubescent girl") and the father of
the already-betrothed girl could complete the marriage process by
handing her over to the bridegroom for consummation (nissu'in).
(See Mishnah Qiddushin 4:5) In fact, he absolutely HAD to hand her
over during that period, because once she turned 12 1/2 years plus
one day she was legally defined as an emancipated adult (bogeret) and
the father could no longer legally control her choice of husband!
(see Mishnah Niddah 5:7).

So, my comment was based specifically on what we know of marriage
customs in that time period (third century) at the eastern end of
the Mediterranean, i.e. in the region where the Mishnah was composed.
There was no discussion of modern times in my comment!

Judith Romney Wegner
jrw@brown.edu

MODERATOR NOTE: Further discussion of third century practices should
take place privately.


Polish translation needed - Files are on ViewMate #poland

Tamar Amit <tamar.amit@...>
 

I have just obtained some vital record copies >from PSA. Some of them
were written in Polish. I would very much appreciate having them
translated.

Thank you in advance.

ViewMate address:
http://data.jewishgen.org/viewmate/toview.html

or the specific address of the documents are as follows:

http://data.jewishgen.org/viewmate/ALL/viewmateview.asp?key=6192
http://data.jewishgen.org/viewmate/ALL/viewmateview.asp?key=6193
http://data.jewishgen.org/viewmate/ALL/viewmateview.asp?key=6194
http://data.jewishgen.org/viewmate/ALL/viewmateview.asp?key=6195
http://data.jewishgen.org/viewmate/ALL/viewmateview.asp?key=6196
http://data.jewishgen.org/viewmate/ALL/viewmateview.asp?key=6197

Please reply privately. With many thanks!

Tamar Amit
ISRAEL
Tamar.Amit@gmail.com


JewishGen Discussion Group #JewishGen Re: age of first marriage varied #general

Judith Romney Wegner
 

Bert Lazerow wrote:

Someone wrote:
<though it is surprising that, in 300 CE this young lady had reached
the age of 22 without being married off!>
Jewish marriage customs have varied considerably over time
and place. In 1850 in Russia or 1950 in America, this would be
surprising. In 1900 in Russia or 2000 in America, it would not be
surprising. One needs to know much more about the customs
of the time and place to form a judgment about how unusual such
a personal decision might be.
Remember that America is the most marrying country in
the world, and the period 1946-1960 was America's most uxorious
time period.
Bert
Dear Bert,

I'm don't quite understand why your response to my comment focused
exclusively on the 19th and 20th centuries, when I was explicitly
discussing the case of a young woman who had lived and died in the
third century CE! In case you missed that fact, here's a
clarification. My comment referred strictly to the time and place
under discussion and to both Jewish customs and to Jewish customary
law in particular. >from the young girl's standpoint, marriage was
decidedly not "a personal decision" as you characterized it! Girls
in most if not all cultures back then were routinely married off by
their fathers at an early age (unless for some reason no husband
could be found for the unfortunate young lady).

In the specific case of Jews (at least, of the small percentage known
to have followed the rules of the sages at the time), the Mishnah
(edited c. 225 CE in Syria-Palestina, as the Romans renamed the Land
of Israel after destroying the Temple and kicking the Jews out of
Jerusalem in 70 CE ) specifically established a special six-month
period between the ages of 12 and 12 1/2, during which a girl was
legally defined as a na'arah ("pubescent girl") and the father of
the already-betrothed girl could complete the marriage process by
handing her over to the bridegroom for consummation (nissu'in).
(See Mishnah Qiddushin 4:5) In fact, he absolutely HAD to hand her
over during that period, because once she turned 12 1/2 years plus
one day she was legally defined as an emancipated adult (bogeret) and
the father could no longer legally control her choice of husband!
(see Mishnah Niddah 5:7).

So, my comment was based specifically on what we know of marriage
customs in that time period (third century) at the eastern end of
the Mediterranean, i.e. in the region where the Mishnah was composed.
There was no discussion of modern times in my comment!

Judith Romney Wegner
jrw@brown.edu

MODERATOR NOTE: Further discussion of third century practices should
take place privately.


JRI Poland #Poland Polish translation needed - Files are on ViewMate #poland

Tamar Amit <tamar.amit@...>
 

I have just obtained some vital record copies >from PSA. Some of them
were written in Polish. I would very much appreciate having them
translated.

Thank you in advance.

ViewMate address:
http://data.jewishgen.org/viewmate/toview.html

or the specific address of the documents are as follows:

http://data.jewishgen.org/viewmate/ALL/viewmateview.asp?key=6192
http://data.jewishgen.org/viewmate/ALL/viewmateview.asp?key=6193
http://data.jewishgen.org/viewmate/ALL/viewmateview.asp?key=6194
http://data.jewishgen.org/viewmate/ALL/viewmateview.asp?key=6195
http://data.jewishgen.org/viewmate/ALL/viewmateview.asp?key=6196
http://data.jewishgen.org/viewmate/ALL/viewmateview.asp?key=6197

Please reply privately. With many thanks!

Tamar Amit
ISRAEL
Tamar.Amit@gmail.com


Translation of Russian language documents #poland

Elaine Farran <simplynanny@...>
 

I would appreciate a translation of ViewMate file #6209 which is the
death record for Ryfka Rozaliia SZAMPANIJER of Lodz, Poland, 1896
and View Mate file # 6210 which is the marriage record for Michajl
SZAMPANIOR and Pessa PARZENCZAWSKA of Aleksandrow Lodzki, 1894

The ViewMate address http://data.jewishgen.org/viewmate/toview.html
Please send responses to me privately at
simplynanny@yahoo.com

Thank you

Elaine Farran
Long Beach NY
researching SZAMPANIER, FRISCH


JRI Poland #Poland Translation of Russian language documents #poland

Elaine Farran <simplynanny@...>
 

I would appreciate a translation of ViewMate file #6209 which is the
death record for Ryfka Rozaliia SZAMPANIJER of Lodz, Poland, 1896
and View Mate file # 6210 which is the marriage record for Michajl
SZAMPANIOR and Pessa PARZENCZAWSKA of Aleksandrow Lodzki, 1894

The ViewMate address http://data.jewishgen.org/viewmate/toview.html
Please send responses to me privately at
simplynanny@yahoo.com

Thank you

Elaine Farran
Long Beach NY
researching SZAMPANIER, FRISCH


KATZ and Sephardi ancestry #general

MBernet@...
 

In a message dated 6/3/2005 1:12:48 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,
mlbishow@mindspring.com writes:

< Jews with the surname KATZ were present in eastern Galicia, in the area
of my family's shtetl before it was required for Jews to have surnames,
therefore some of these may have been Sephardic.

==Could have been, could have been left handed, curly-haired, blue-eyed or
musically talented.

There is no connection that I know of between Galicia, acquiring surnames,
or being Sephardi. Very few of the Jews of Eastern Europe were of Sephardi
ancestry and those that were blended into the Ashkenazi populations within a few
years.

Absent some valid genealogical information, having a particular name tells
us next to nothing about one's ancestry. With just the name Katz and the
information that they were not Kohanim, we can tell absolutely nothing about the
family's origins and wanderings. One thing is certain, though: the name Katz
is totally unknown among Sephardim

Why is it so important for some Ashkenazim to postulate Sephardic ancestry?

Michael Bernet, New York


New book on Oradea #general

gzsuzsi@...
 

For those interested, the English version of Terez Mozes's memoirs,
including a detailed description of Oradea's ghetto life, deportations,
concentration camp experience and post liberation life in the city,
recently came out >from the University of Calgary Press under the title
"Staying Human Through the Holocaust" . The book's original Hungarian
title is "Beverzett kotablak".

Susan Geroe
San Diego, CA

Researching: SIMONOVITS, AUERHAHN (Nadworna, Bardejov, Bushtyna),
KLEIN (Pier, Marghita), CZEIGER (Pier, Marghita, Tasnad, Wien)


PANITCHEV or PANYCHEV from Ukraine #general

Mathilde Tagger <tagger@...>
 

Hello everyone!

Is anyone familiar with the surname PANITCHEV or PANYCHEV (or any other
combination) >from Ukraine?

I do not know where exactly >from the family was. The only information I have
is that a couple left Ukraine by the end of the 19th century and settled in
Bulgaria.
This track was taken by hundreds and even thousands of Ukrainian Jews at
that period.

Thank you in advance for any clue.

Shabbat Shalom,
Mathilde Tagger
Jerusalem


JewishGen Discussion Group #JewishGen KATZ and Sephardi ancestry #general

MBernet@...
 

In a message dated 6/3/2005 1:12:48 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,
mlbishow@mindspring.com writes:

< Jews with the surname KATZ were present in eastern Galicia, in the area
of my family's shtetl before it was required for Jews to have surnames,
therefore some of these may have been Sephardic.

==Could have been, could have been left handed, curly-haired, blue-eyed or
musically talented.

There is no connection that I know of between Galicia, acquiring surnames,
or being Sephardi. Very few of the Jews of Eastern Europe were of Sephardi
ancestry and those that were blended into the Ashkenazi populations within a few
years.

Absent some valid genealogical information, having a particular name tells
us next to nothing about one's ancestry. With just the name Katz and the
information that they were not Kohanim, we can tell absolutely nothing about the
family's origins and wanderings. One thing is certain, though: the name Katz
is totally unknown among Sephardim

Why is it so important for some Ashkenazim to postulate Sephardic ancestry?

Michael Bernet, New York


JewishGen Discussion Group #JewishGen New book on Oradea #general

gzsuzsi@...
 

For those interested, the English version of Terez Mozes's memoirs,
including a detailed description of Oradea's ghetto life, deportations,
concentration camp experience and post liberation life in the city,
recently came out >from the University of Calgary Press under the title
"Staying Human Through the Holocaust" . The book's original Hungarian
title is "Beverzett kotablak".

Susan Geroe
San Diego, CA

Researching: SIMONOVITS, AUERHAHN (Nadworna, Bardejov, Bushtyna),
KLEIN (Pier, Marghita), CZEIGER (Pier, Marghita, Tasnad, Wien)


JewishGen Discussion Group #JewishGen PANITCHEV or PANYCHEV from Ukraine #general

Mathilde Tagger <tagger@...>
 

Hello everyone!

Is anyone familiar with the surname PANITCHEV or PANYCHEV (or any other
combination) >from Ukraine?

I do not know where exactly >from the family was. The only information I have
is that a couple left Ukraine by the end of the 19th century and settled in
Bulgaria.
This track was taken by hundreds and even thousands of Ukrainian Jews at
that period.

Thank you in advance for any clue.

Shabbat Shalom,
Mathilde Tagger
Jerusalem


Early 19th Century Polish Records #poland

Hadassah Lipsius <kesher@...>
 

I was surprised by some statements recently posted stating that
JRI-Poland does not have much data for the period prior to 1850.
I do not believe that it is the case and perhaps people are not
familiar with JRI-Poland Shtetl CO-OP Project and our Patronymic files.

Though 10 years ago, JRI-Poland's goal was to index the Russian language
records, we have moved leaps and bounds further in our 10 years history.
JRI-Poland's goal is to index all the available Jewish Records of Poland
and for any period of time for which those records are made available to
us.

JRI-Poland launched the Shtetl CO-OP Project in 1997. A Shtetl CO-OP
consists of groups of volunteers with a common interest in an ancestral
town. Under the leadership of a project coordinator, each JRI- Poland
Shtetl CO-OP team's is to index all of the available Jewish Records >from
the LDS microfilms for that Town. Although it varies >from town to town,
this generally covers the years 1826-mid 1880's. Today there are more
than 195 Shtetl CO-OPs and over 114 towns have been completely indexed.
Over 800 LDS microfilms have been totally completed and live on the
JRI-Poland database and much more is in progress or awaiting to be loaded
on to the database.

In March 2005 we announced the completion the indexing of the LDS
microfilms for all of the 14 towns in the Suwalki Gubernia which meant
the completion of approximately 60 microfilms. These covered the years
1826 to the mid 1880's. If you are interested in these files, please
send an e-mail to suwalki@jri-poland.org

JRI-Poland also has on our website Patronymic files which can be
downloaded and viewed. These files cover the years 1808-1825 when many
Jews did not have surnames and when the Jewish records were recorded
together with their Christian neighbors. JRI-Poland volunteers have
worked hard on extracting data >from these LDS film in order. Look on
the homepage for the link to the patronymic files.


If there are available records for your town prior to 1850 and it is not
on the JRI-Poland database then perhaps they are waiting for you to
volunteer.

Hadassah Lipsius
JRI-Poland
Associate Director


JRI Poland #Poland Early 19th Century Polish Records #poland

Hadassah Lipsius <kesher@...>
 

I was surprised by some statements recently posted stating that
JRI-Poland does not have much data for the period prior to 1850.
I do not believe that it is the case and perhaps people are not
familiar with JRI-Poland Shtetl CO-OP Project and our Patronymic files.

Though 10 years ago, JRI-Poland's goal was to index the Russian language
records, we have moved leaps and bounds further in our 10 years history.
JRI-Poland's goal is to index all the available Jewish Records of Poland
and for any period of time for which those records are made available to
us.

JRI-Poland launched the Shtetl CO-OP Project in 1997. A Shtetl CO-OP
consists of groups of volunteers with a common interest in an ancestral
town. Under the leadership of a project coordinator, each JRI- Poland
Shtetl CO-OP team's is to index all of the available Jewish Records >from
the LDS microfilms for that Town. Although it varies >from town to town,
this generally covers the years 1826-mid 1880's. Today there are more
than 195 Shtetl CO-OPs and over 114 towns have been completely indexed.
Over 800 LDS microfilms have been totally completed and live on the
JRI-Poland database and much more is in progress or awaiting to be loaded
on to the database.

In March 2005 we announced the completion the indexing of the LDS
microfilms for all of the 14 towns in the Suwalki Gubernia which meant
the completion of approximately 60 microfilms. These covered the years
1826 to the mid 1880's. If you are interested in these files, please
send an e-mail to suwalki@jri-poland.org

JRI-Poland also has on our website Patronymic files which can be
downloaded and viewed. These files cover the years 1808-1825 when many
Jews did not have surnames and when the Jewish records were recorded
together with their Christian neighbors. JRI-Poland volunteers have
worked hard on extracting data >from these LDS film in order. Look on
the homepage for the link to the patronymic files.


If there are available records for your town prior to 1850 and it is not
on the JRI-Poland database then perhaps they are waiting for you to
volunteer.

Hadassah Lipsius
JRI-Poland
Associate Director


Re: age of first marriage varied #general

Claire Sztern <claire.sztern@...>
 

That is very interesting!

Are the average age of marriage for men & women and the average number
of children known for different places and times? Maybe such
statistics are on a website or something? I would also be interested
in the ages at first and last child. I have noticed very interesting
differences too, >from 12 to 28 for the women.

Claire Sztern, Paris, France
claire.sztern@gmail.com


JewishGen Discussion Group #JewishGen Re: age of first marriage varied #general

Claire Sztern <claire.sztern@...>
 

That is very interesting!

Are the average age of marriage for men & women and the average number
of children known for different places and times? Maybe such
statistics are on a website or something? I would also be interested
in the ages at first and last child. I have noticed very interesting
differences too, >from 12 to 28 for the women.

Claire Sztern, Paris, France
claire.sztern@gmail.com


Help Translation G Granmother's Birth record and her father's death record #germany

Tuvia
 

Hello,
I have just received my G Grandmother's (Johanna Moses) birth record and
her father(Nathan Moses) death record >from Zetingen-Rachtig Germany, I would
appreciate if someone could assist with the translation.

Johanna Moses' birth record
http://home.triad.rr.com/greenmountain/images/JohannaMosesBirthRecord.jpg

Nathan Moses' death record
http://home.triad.rr.com/greenmountain/images/NathanMosesDeathRecord.jpg
Thank you

Tuvia McKane Greensboro, NC <tmckane@triad.rr.com>

MODERATOR NOTE: JewishGen offers its ViewMate service free of charge for this
purpose at: http://www.jewishgen.org/ViewMate/


German SIG #Germany Help Translation G Granmother's Birth record and her father's death record #germany

Tuvia
 

Hello,
I have just received my G Grandmother's (Johanna Moses) birth record and
her father(Nathan Moses) death record >from Zetingen-Rachtig Germany, I would
appreciate if someone could assist with the translation.

Johanna Moses' birth record
http://home.triad.rr.com/greenmountain/images/JohannaMosesBirthRecord.jpg

Nathan Moses' death record
http://home.triad.rr.com/greenmountain/images/NathanMosesDeathRecord.jpg
Thank you

Tuvia McKane Greensboro, NC <tmckane@triad.rr.com>

MODERATOR NOTE: JewishGen offers its ViewMate service free of charge for this
purpose at: http://www.jewishgen.org/ViewMate/


How did she get back to Russia (Ukraine)? #general

Marilyn F <mrl516@...>
 

I know that my grandmother's cousin returned to Tulchin >from America
(probably living in Brooklyn). in about 1907. Does Steve Morse's site just
help search for those immigrating to America? How about those that decided
to return to their land of birth? How can I find out the ship she travelled
on and other information about her including who she was going to? Thanks
for any advice. Marilyn Feingold USA

MILGROM,KORMAN-Tulchin TONKONOGY-Frunza (Tashkent)
SCHLAFFER, SZAFIR-Kamenka ( Moldova) ROSENTHAL-Worone/Pittsburgh
PEKARSKY/SOKOLOFSKY-Tashkent/Israel FELDMAN, SHENKER-Obodivka
STEINBERG/LERNER/ELKUS/MILGROM/Kishinev/Odessa MILTER-Kodima (Moldova)
TESLER/MALAMUD/LUBER-Kamenka (Moldova)
KOLKER/TARTAKOV/SPIVAK-Obodivaka


Brooklyn history #general

Marilyn F <mrl516@...>
 

How can I find out who lived at 188 Christoper Street in Brooklyn >from 1889
to 1905? Thanks for suggestions.
Marilyn Feingold USA