Date   

Re: Jewish Castes #general

MBernet@...
 

In a message dated 6/16/2005 6:42:36 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
sorlen@email.arizona.edu writes:

< Recently, in an aside, someone mentioned Jewish castes other than
Kohanim, Levites, Israelites. I checked the Net, but didn't find anything. As I find
this interesting, would someone point me to a site that would offer some
elaboration? >

==I wouldn't call Kohanim or Levi'im castes. A caste is an endogamous group
(i.e. they marry only within the caste), limited to persons of the same
rank, occupation, economic position, etc. (which does not distinguish our three
groups), any rigid system of social distinctions.(which we lack). In Hinduism,
caste is. any of the social divisions into which Hindu society is
traditionally divided, each caste having its own privileges and limitations,
transferred by inheritance >from one generation to the next; any class or group of
society sharing common cultural features: such as low caste; high caste.

I would prefer to say that Kohanim and Levi'im have a special status that
offers no real privileges.

I believe there is some evidence of castes in ancient biblical times but I
don't know the first thing about that.

I wouldn't be at all surprised to learn that specific Jewish groups
practiced caste systems. Ostjuden (Jews >from Eastern Europe were rebuffed by German
Jews >from about 1850 to about 1939, and by some German Jews in the USA >from
about 1840 to about 1960. Jews in India and Burma tended to exclude the poorer
and "more native" Jews up to 1942. Spanish and Portuguese Jews saw
themselves as superior to all other Jews, and would express this by writing Samach-Tet
after their names, to indicate they were "pure" Sfardi. Jews in the Holy
Land in the 17th to the early 20th centuries practiced a sort of caste system
that discouraged intermarriage between Jews >from various countries (in part an
economic distinction: groups were supported financially by the Jews in the
counties >from which they'd immigrated), there was some caste influence in the
relationship between various Hassidic sects, between Hasidim and Mitnagdim.
I encountered a very rigid caste system when in 1952 I applied at London's
Spanish-Portuguese congregation to marry a Sefardi woman (>from Burma) and had
to sign away all the privileges normally available to a Sefardi bride.

If you're talking about Kohen, Levi, Israel, there's no additional fourth or
fifth (parallel) group in Judaism. If you're talking of separate social
groups like those who go hunting, those who go to the ballet, and those who make
deals on the golf course, yes, we have those, but the boundaries are far
from rigid.
Michael Bernet, New York


JewishGen Discussion Group #JewishGen Re: Jewish Castes #general

MBernet@...
 

In a message dated 6/16/2005 6:42:36 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
sorlen@email.arizona.edu writes:

< Recently, in an aside, someone mentioned Jewish castes other than
Kohanim, Levites, Israelites. I checked the Net, but didn't find anything. As I find
this interesting, would someone point me to a site that would offer some
elaboration? >

==I wouldn't call Kohanim or Levi'im castes. A caste is an endogamous group
(i.e. they marry only within the caste), limited to persons of the same
rank, occupation, economic position, etc. (which does not distinguish our three
groups), any rigid system of social distinctions.(which we lack). In Hinduism,
caste is. any of the social divisions into which Hindu society is
traditionally divided, each caste having its own privileges and limitations,
transferred by inheritance >from one generation to the next; any class or group of
society sharing common cultural features: such as low caste; high caste.

I would prefer to say that Kohanim and Levi'im have a special status that
offers no real privileges.

I believe there is some evidence of castes in ancient biblical times but I
don't know the first thing about that.

I wouldn't be at all surprised to learn that specific Jewish groups
practiced caste systems. Ostjuden (Jews >from Eastern Europe were rebuffed by German
Jews >from about 1850 to about 1939, and by some German Jews in the USA >from
about 1840 to about 1960. Jews in India and Burma tended to exclude the poorer
and "more native" Jews up to 1942. Spanish and Portuguese Jews saw
themselves as superior to all other Jews, and would express this by writing Samach-Tet
after their names, to indicate they were "pure" Sfardi. Jews in the Holy
Land in the 17th to the early 20th centuries practiced a sort of caste system
that discouraged intermarriage between Jews >from various countries (in part an
economic distinction: groups were supported financially by the Jews in the
counties >from which they'd immigrated), there was some caste influence in the
relationship between various Hassidic sects, between Hasidim and Mitnagdim.
I encountered a very rigid caste system when in 1952 I applied at London's
Spanish-Portuguese congregation to marry a Sefardi woman (>from Burma) and had
to sign away all the privileges normally available to a Sefardi bride.

If you're talking about Kohen, Levi, Israel, there's no additional fourth or
fifth (parallel) group in Judaism. If you're talking of separate social
groups like those who go hunting, those who go to the ballet, and those who make
deals on the golf course, yes, we have those, but the boundaries are far
from rigid.
Michael Bernet, New York


Re: reverand/reverend listed on 1925 marriage certificate #general

robert fraser <robertandginafraser@...>
 

Not at all. A "Reverend" served in one of our Western Australian
congregations until about a year ago, when he "upgraded" to Rabbi.

Robert W Fraser
Dianella, Western Australia
robertandginafraser@iinet.net.au

-----Original Message-----
From: Ira Leviton [mailto:iraleviton@yahoo.com]
Sent: Thursday, 16 June 2005 11:23 PM

Dear JGenners,

The term "Reverend" was used by all Jewish denominations, except the
black hats and chasidim, although it may have been used differently by
each. It seems to have faded among all, if it's not completely gone.
snip>>>>>


JewishGen Discussion Group #JewishGen RE: reverand/reverend listed on 1925 marriage certificate #general

robert fraser <robertandginafraser@...>
 

Not at all. A "Reverend" served in one of our Western Australian
congregations until about a year ago, when he "upgraded" to Rabbi.

Robert W Fraser
Dianella, Western Australia
robertandginafraser@iinet.net.au

-----Original Message-----
From: Ira Leviton [mailto:iraleviton@yahoo.com]
Sent: Thursday, 16 June 2005 11:23 PM

Dear JGenners,

The term "Reverend" was used by all Jewish denominations, except the
black hats and chasidim, although it may have been used differently by
each. It seems to have faded among all, if it's not completely gone.
snip>>>>>


KISSINGER Family Reunion following years of research #germany

Elizabeth Levy <levyliz@...>
 

Dear Gersiggers,

I want to share with you the most amazing experience.

On June 2- 5 the extended KISSINGER family celebrated their first
international family reunion in Bad Kissingen, Germany- the source of our family
name. Following about 20+ years of reasearch - first by a cousin of mine and then
by me, 62 of us met for the first time to reunite the family. Participants from
the age of 9 mos to 90 years old >from 8 countries came together.

The family was once very close however, scattered for the most part by war,
the families lost touch. To say the least, it was an emotional experience
to meet long-lost family.

I tell you all this because you are all busy with your research but you may
want to think about doing a meeting of this sort too. It was not only a
pleasure to meet everyone socially but we were able to discuss as a family
what we want for our family as a group. People agreed to take
responsibility to continue the connection and to pass it on to their
families - children and grandchildren.

The family also made a connection with the Leo Baeck Institute to have a
repository for KISSINGER Family history. Everyone will send copies of their
photos, documents, letters, whatever... During the reunion we recorded oral
histories of the different families regarding where they were before the
war, when and how they left and how they got settled in their new land and
these tapes will be presented to Leo Baeck. My research on the family
history will also be there.

The event took two years of planning and it was not an easy feat but it was
worth every minute of work. If anyone would like to hold a reunion and
would like my tips >from our experience, please feel free to contact me
directly. Still flying high,

Elizabeth Levy Mevassaret Zion, Israel www.kissingerfamily.com


Looking forJewish cemetery in Mendig Germany #general

Tuvia
 

Hello,
My G G Grandparents Issak and Eva Moses lived and were buried in
Mendig/Eifel Germany. I am looking for a way to contact the Jewish cemetery
in Mendig.. Any ideas??.

Thank you

Tuvia McKane
Greensboro, NC USA

MODERATOR NOTE: If you have not already done so, you may want to send
this query as well to JewishGen's German SIG. For further information about
JewishGen SIGs (Special Interest Groups), see
http://lyris.jewishgen.org/ListManager/


German SIG #Germany KISSINGER Family Reunion following years of research #germany

Elizabeth Levy <levyliz@...>
 

Dear Gersiggers,

I want to share with you the most amazing experience.

On June 2- 5 the extended KISSINGER family celebrated their first
international family reunion in Bad Kissingen, Germany- the source of our family
name. Following about 20+ years of reasearch - first by a cousin of mine and then
by me, 62 of us met for the first time to reunite the family. Participants from
the age of 9 mos to 90 years old >from 8 countries came together.

The family was once very close however, scattered for the most part by war,
the families lost touch. To say the least, it was an emotional experience
to meet long-lost family.

I tell you all this because you are all busy with your research but you may
want to think about doing a meeting of this sort too. It was not only a
pleasure to meet everyone socially but we were able to discuss as a family
what we want for our family as a group. People agreed to take
responsibility to continue the connection and to pass it on to their
families - children and grandchildren.

The family also made a connection with the Leo Baeck Institute to have a
repository for KISSINGER Family history. Everyone will send copies of their
photos, documents, letters, whatever... During the reunion we recorded oral
histories of the different families regarding where they were before the
war, when and how they left and how they got settled in their new land and
these tapes will be presented to Leo Baeck. My research on the family
history will also be there.

The event took two years of planning and it was not an easy feat but it was
worth every minute of work. If anyone would like to hold a reunion and
would like my tips >from our experience, please feel free to contact me
directly. Still flying high,

Elizabeth Levy Mevassaret Zion, Israel www.kissingerfamily.com


JewishGen Discussion Group #JewishGen Looking forJewish cemetery in Mendig Germany #general

Tuvia
 

Hello,
My G G Grandparents Issak and Eva Moses lived and were buried in
Mendig/Eifel Germany. I am looking for a way to contact the Jewish cemetery
in Mendig.. Any ideas??.

Thank you

Tuvia McKane
Greensboro, NC USA

MODERATOR NOTE: If you have not already done so, you may want to send
this query as well to JewishGen's German SIG. For further information about
JewishGen SIGs (Special Interest Groups), see
http://lyris.jewishgen.org/ListManager/


Warsaw Ghetto ID#s #general

Connie Fisher Newhan
 

I have a listing >from "Warsaw Ghetto Details of Chosen Records" for my aunt
and gf that I got >from the Warsaw Ghetto Internet Database at
http://warszawa.getto.pl/en/site.
Can anyone tell me what the ID# refers to?

Best Regards,
Connie Fisher Newhan (#1272)
Corona, California
FISHER/FISCHER/FISZER, FISZEL (Warszawa& Bedzin, Poland),S(Z)PRINGER,
ROTHSTEIN, HAMBURGER(Bedzin, Lagiza, Zarki, Poland), GERSTEN (Obertyn, Galacia)
BARSKA/BARSKY/BARSKIY(Odessa), GOLDBERG (Sokolka?), FELDMAN (Veliuona,Kaunas),
KAHN/KOHN/COHN/CAHN, FRIEDSAM (Coln? Germany, Pittsburgh, PA),
NEWHAN/NEUHAN/NEUHAHN (Hesse Cassel, Meimbressen, Germany, Baltimore, MD), BOHORODCZANER
(Potok Zloty, Ukraine), LEVINE, BLUM, ROTH, ROCKOVITZ, ABRAMS, RABINOWITZ, GERSHIKEVICH


JewishGen Discussion Group #JewishGen Warsaw Ghetto ID#s #general

Connie Fisher Newhan
 

I have a listing >from "Warsaw Ghetto Details of Chosen Records" for my aunt
and gf that I got >from the Warsaw Ghetto Internet Database at
http://warszawa.getto.pl/en/site.
Can anyone tell me what the ID# refers to?

Best Regards,
Connie Fisher Newhan (#1272)
Corona, California
FISHER/FISCHER/FISZER, FISZEL (Warszawa& Bedzin, Poland),S(Z)PRINGER,
ROTHSTEIN, HAMBURGER(Bedzin, Lagiza, Zarki, Poland), GERSTEN (Obertyn, Galacia)
BARSKA/BARSKY/BARSKIY(Odessa), GOLDBERG (Sokolka?), FELDMAN (Veliuona,Kaunas),
KAHN/KOHN/COHN/CAHN, FRIEDSAM (Coln? Germany, Pittsburgh, PA),
NEWHAN/NEUHAN/NEUHAHN (Hesse Cassel, Meimbressen, Germany, Baltimore, MD), BOHORODCZANER
(Potok Zloty, Ukraine), LEVINE, BLUM, ROTH, ROCKOVITZ, ABRAMS, RABINOWITZ, GERSHIKEVICH


Three new translations donated to the Bobruisk Yizkor Book #general

David <tiganeasca@...>
 

It gives me great pleasure to publicly thank Avi J. Levin for donating
three new translations >from the Bobruisk Yizkor Book to the SIG and to
JewishGen. Mr. Levin not only spent untold hours translating these
articles for all of us but then graciously donated all three, running
for a number of pages. We are all in his debt.

Anyone with an interest in Bobruisk or Belarus or rabbinic genealogy
should check out his translations of these fascinating articles on "R.
Baruch Mordechai Atinge," "R. Eliahu Goldberg," and "R. Hillel ben Meir
Halevi (R. Hillel Meporets)," which runs for several pages.
http://www.jewishgen.org/yizkor/Bobruisk/bysktoc1.html

I'd also like to emphasize that one need not be fluent or even able to
read Hebrew or Yiddish to help us obtain translations of the many
remaining articles in this two-volume Yizkor Book. Scan the lengthy
table of contents at the link above and consider commissioning a
translation--or contributing toward such a translation. Further
information on donating a translation or contributing to one can be
found at http://www.jewishgen.org/yizkor/

I look forward to thanking many more of you whose family came >from this
region. Much has been translated, much remains. And when we pull
together the translations will be available to us all--and to anyone
interested in discovering their past.

David Gordon
Bobruisk Yizkor Book coordinator
tiganeasca/at/interaccess.com
Chicago, Illinois
Searching:
HORWITZ: Smolevichi, Lapichi, Bobruisk?, GORDON: Kovno (or Vilna?)
GEBALOVITCH: Borisov, LEVIN: Kovno, Vilna?, DRAZIN: Bobruisk
BENENSON: Borisov, HURWITZ: Gomel


JewishGen Discussion Group #JewishGen Three new translations donated to the Bobruisk Yizkor Book #general

David <tiganeasca@...>
 

It gives me great pleasure to publicly thank Avi J. Levin for donating
three new translations >from the Bobruisk Yizkor Book to the SIG and to
JewishGen. Mr. Levin not only spent untold hours translating these
articles for all of us but then graciously donated all three, running
for a number of pages. We are all in his debt.

Anyone with an interest in Bobruisk or Belarus or rabbinic genealogy
should check out his translations of these fascinating articles on "R.
Baruch Mordechai Atinge," "R. Eliahu Goldberg," and "R. Hillel ben Meir
Halevi (R. Hillel Meporets)," which runs for several pages.
http://www.jewishgen.org/yizkor/Bobruisk/bysktoc1.html

I'd also like to emphasize that one need not be fluent or even able to
read Hebrew or Yiddish to help us obtain translations of the many
remaining articles in this two-volume Yizkor Book. Scan the lengthy
table of contents at the link above and consider commissioning a
translation--or contributing toward such a translation. Further
information on donating a translation or contributing to one can be
found at http://www.jewishgen.org/yizkor/

I look forward to thanking many more of you whose family came >from this
region. Much has been translated, much remains. And when we pull
together the translations will be available to us all--and to anyone
interested in discovering their past.

David Gordon
Bobruisk Yizkor Book coordinator
tiganeasca/at/interaccess.com
Chicago, Illinois
Searching:
HORWITZ: Smolevichi, Lapichi, Bobruisk?, GORDON: Kovno (or Vilna?)
GEBALOVITCH: Borisov, LEVIN: Kovno, Vilna?, DRAZIN: Bobruisk
BENENSON: Borisov, HURWITZ: Gomel


Graves in Chicago- Thank You! #general

katie sobol <katie2727@...>
 

Dear Fellow Genners:

I want to thank everyone for their numerous responses and detailed advice to
my query regarding "Graves In Chicago". I real feel the positive support
and determination >from this Newsgroup. I am extremely grateful for those
who stay involved and take time out of their busy lives to help another.

Warmly,
Katie Sobol
Researcher #9386
katie2727@comcast.net
Researching: ZOLLER, MESSINGER, SUCHERMAN, GRUDER, Brody, Ukraine;
Montreal, Canada; Russia and Hungary.
SINGER, Myjava and Tura Luka, Slovakia; Chicago, IL, KRAUSZ (KRAUSE),
Hungary; Chicago, IL.


JewishGen Discussion Group #JewishGen Graves in Chicago- Thank You! #general

katie sobol <katie2727@...>
 

Dear Fellow Genners:

I want to thank everyone for their numerous responses and detailed advice to
my query regarding "Graves In Chicago". I real feel the positive support
and determination >from this Newsgroup. I am extremely grateful for those
who stay involved and take time out of their busy lives to help another.

Warmly,
Katie Sobol
Researcher #9386
katie2727@comcast.net
Researching: ZOLLER, MESSINGER, SUCHERMAN, GRUDER, Brody, Ukraine;
Montreal, Canada; Russia and Hungary.
SINGER, Myjava and Tura Luka, Slovakia; Chicago, IL, KRAUSZ (KRAUSE),
Hungary; Chicago, IL.


Re: Jewish Castes #general

Judith Romney Wegner
 

Dear Cousins,

Recently, in an aside, someone mentioned Jewish castes other than
Kohanim, Levites, Israelites. I checked the Net, but didn't find
anything. As I find this interesting, would someone point me to a
site that would offer some elaboration?

Best, Steve Orlen
Dear Steve,

I've no idea if there is a web site for this stuff -- somehow I
doubt it, since the names of these castes are known only to those who
choose to study some rather esoteric portions of the Mishnah (either
in the context of an orthodox yeshivah or in the context of an
academic study of Judaic texts).

In any case, these castes have been extinct for all practical
purposes for about 2000 years. They included impaired priestly
stocks, proselytes, freedmen, mamzerim, plus a few more with
esoteric names like nathin, shetuki and asufi. M. Qiddushin
(usually mistransliterated Kiddushin) chapter 4 spells out exactly
who is eligible to marry whom and who is ineligible.

As I said, the main place you will find these discussed is in the
Talmud, in particular the Mishnah, especially the section that sets
out the rules for determining when a child will have the caste status
of its father, and when it will have the caste status of its mother.

Specifically you would look at Mishnah Qiddushin 3:12 and Mishnah
Qiddushin 4:1 through 4:7. But I can tell you right now that it
will break your head without actually blowing your mind -- you will
definitely be "underwhelmed" -- so it may not be worth your while.
If you do decide to take a look, the Mishnah, English translation by
Herbert Danby originally done in 1933, published by Oxford U.P. , is
the classic version, readily available in any decent University
Library. Enjoy!

Judith Romney Wegner


Translation of Polish birth registration #general

Richard McDonald <richardmcdonald@...>
 

Please assist with a translation of VM6283
http://data.jewishgen.org/viewmate/ALL/viewmateview.asp?key=6283
Respond to mcdonaldrw@verizon.net

Thank you,

Martha Laufer McDonald


JewishGen Discussion Group #JewishGen Re: Jewish Castes #general

Judith Romney Wegner
 

Dear Cousins,

Recently, in an aside, someone mentioned Jewish castes other than
Kohanim, Levites, Israelites. I checked the Net, but didn't find
anything. As I find this interesting, would someone point me to a
site that would offer some elaboration?

Best, Steve Orlen
Dear Steve,

I've no idea if there is a web site for this stuff -- somehow I
doubt it, since the names of these castes are known only to those who
choose to study some rather esoteric portions of the Mishnah (either
in the context of an orthodox yeshivah or in the context of an
academic study of Judaic texts).

In any case, these castes have been extinct for all practical
purposes for about 2000 years. They included impaired priestly
stocks, proselytes, freedmen, mamzerim, plus a few more with
esoteric names like nathin, shetuki and asufi. M. Qiddushin
(usually mistransliterated Kiddushin) chapter 4 spells out exactly
who is eligible to marry whom and who is ineligible.

As I said, the main place you will find these discussed is in the
Talmud, in particular the Mishnah, especially the section that sets
out the rules for determining when a child will have the caste status
of its father, and when it will have the caste status of its mother.

Specifically you would look at Mishnah Qiddushin 3:12 and Mishnah
Qiddushin 4:1 through 4:7. But I can tell you right now that it
will break your head without actually blowing your mind -- you will
definitely be "underwhelmed" -- so it may not be worth your while.
If you do decide to take a look, the Mishnah, English translation by
Herbert Danby originally done in 1933, published by Oxford U.P. , is
the classic version, readily available in any decent University
Library. Enjoy!

Judith Romney Wegner


JewishGen Discussion Group #JewishGen Translation of Polish birth registration #general

Richard McDonald <richardmcdonald@...>
 

Please assist with a translation of VM6283
http://data.jewishgen.org/viewmate/ALL/viewmateview.asp?key=6283
Respond to mcdonaldrw@verizon.net

Thank you,

Martha Laufer McDonald


BOOK CITE Re: Jews of Seeheim & Jugenheim #germany

PM <phminden@...>
 

Dear siggers,


Marion Hattenbach Bernstein wrote:
A friend has asked me to translate some of this book, "Juden in Seeheim
und Jugenheim," [...] just south of Darmstadt. The author is Robert
Bertsch
I have the book, and, a couple of years ago, met the late Mr Bertsch's
wife and son, who guided me in the place, showing me where my ancestors
lived etc. What might be of interest to readers of English is the book
"History of a Family Dispersed" by Ms Marion Mayer of Chicago, MM Press
Chicago, ISBN 0-9644869-0-3. It contains a large chapter about the
FEITLER clan of Seeheim, including genealogical charts and pictures. I'm
afraid it seems to be out of print. (Cambridge in the UK and the Library
of Congress in the US have copies.)

Lipman Phillip Minden Baden-Wuerttemberg, Germany


German SIG #Germany BOOK CITE Re: Jews of Seeheim & Jugenheim #germany

PM <phminden@...>
 

Dear siggers,


Marion Hattenbach Bernstein wrote:
A friend has asked me to translate some of this book, "Juden in Seeheim
und Jugenheim," [...] just south of Darmstadt. The author is Robert
Bertsch
I have the book, and, a couple of years ago, met the late Mr Bertsch's
wife and son, who guided me in the place, showing me where my ancestors
lived etc. What might be of interest to readers of English is the book
"History of a Family Dispersed" by Ms Marion Mayer of Chicago, MM Press
Chicago, ISBN 0-9644869-0-3. It contains a large chapter about the
FEITLER clan of Seeheim, including genealogical charts and pictures. I'm
afraid it seems to be out of print. (Cambridge in the UK and the Library
of Congress in the US have copies.)

Lipman Phillip Minden Baden-Wuerttemberg, Germany