Date   

Re: Why won't Gesher Galicia search for the vital records of Dobromil from #galicia

Harvey <harvey@...>
 

Dennis Baer writes: "I don't consider myself an expert on genealogy and I
live here in the United
States. I do not live in Ukraine. Why do I have to hire a private researcher
that I cannot afford for vital records in Dobromil Galicia while others get
to order them for other towns inexpensively through JRI PL and AGAD.

Why can't Gesher Galicia find the vital records of Dobromil, Galicia,
Austria for the years 1800-1900?"
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Most of us live far away and find it difficult to engage private
researchers. I share Dennis's frustration, in that the records of my
ancestral town of Kolbuszowa, Galicia, also have disappeared. However, I
can't see how we can expect Gesher Galicia to find East European records,
other than publicising the excellent work of JRI Poland.

Either the records exist - and by now surely most of the holdings in Eastern
Europe have been trawled to see what's out there - and we have to finance
the copying, or they are lost, and may never emerge. Many of us contribute
to funds set up specially through JewishGen to purchase the records of our
common ancestral towns, and thus save in the process.

How could Gesher Galicia influence JRI Poland or JewishGen to push any of
our towns "up the queue" (British word!)? What criteria would they use?

Remember that it's not that long ago since NO Jewish records were available
from Eastern Europe, other than what the Mormons had microfilmed. What
amazing progress has been made by the international JewishGen community!

I think we should be slower to blame Gesher Galicia.

Harvey L Kaplan
Glasgow, Scotland


Gesher Galicia SIG #Galicia Re: Why won't Gesher Galicia search for the vital records of Dobromil from #galicia

Harvey <harvey@...>
 

Dennis Baer writes: "I don't consider myself an expert on genealogy and I
live here in the United
States. I do not live in Ukraine. Why do I have to hire a private researcher
that I cannot afford for vital records in Dobromil Galicia while others get
to order them for other towns inexpensively through JRI PL and AGAD.

Why can't Gesher Galicia find the vital records of Dobromil, Galicia,
Austria for the years 1800-1900?"
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Most of us live far away and find it difficult to engage private
researchers. I share Dennis's frustration, in that the records of my
ancestral town of Kolbuszowa, Galicia, also have disappeared. However, I
can't see how we can expect Gesher Galicia to find East European records,
other than publicising the excellent work of JRI Poland.

Either the records exist - and by now surely most of the holdings in Eastern
Europe have been trawled to see what's out there - and we have to finance
the copying, or they are lost, and may never emerge. Many of us contribute
to funds set up specially through JewishGen to purchase the records of our
common ancestral towns, and thus save in the process.

How could Gesher Galicia influence JRI Poland or JewishGen to push any of
our towns "up the queue" (British word!)? What criteria would they use?

Remember that it's not that long ago since NO Jewish records were available
from Eastern Europe, other than what the Mormons had microfilmed. What
amazing progress has been made by the international JewishGen community!

I think we should be slower to blame Gesher Galicia.

Harvey L Kaplan
Glasgow, Scotland


GOLDMAN (Newcastle, Spitalfields, Mile End) and BARON (Croydon) #unitedkingdom

Anthony & Helen Kaplan <antkap@...>
 

I am optimistic that someone may recognise the names of Paul BARON and his
sister Andrea Louise BARON. They would have been in their late teens or
early 20s in the 1960s, at a time when I lived in London and for the better
part of that decade. Genealogical interest, let alone research, was the
not an interest of mine at that time. Both age (now closing in rapidly on
70) and the immense resources of the Internet have changed all that.

The main focus of my attention is on my (maternal) great-grandfather,
Harris (Yitzchak) GOLDMAN and his wife Rachel NOVOCOWEITZ who were born in
Poland (or thereabouts) in the early 1850s. They would have come to England
in the early 1870s, settling down initially in Newcastle-upon-Tyne, where
the first 4 of their 10 children were born - Esther, Annie, Benjamin and
Hyman. This is fact and confirmed in the 1881 census. The family came on to
London and here the next 6 children were born - Abraham, Lily, Emily,
Israel, Lena and Priscilla. They lived initially at 11 Booth Street,
Spitalfields (1881 census), later at 75 Globe Road, Mile End, where they
are documented in the 1891 census. Most of the family are accounted for in
the 1901 census, some having by now left the nest, but Harris GOLDMAN is
conspicuously absent >from the enumeration, which recorded the family in
Portsmouth. Harris was known to travel to Paris frequently, where he
had family as well as business interests. Perhaps he was abroad at census
time, perhaps he was deceased. I do not know. His place and time of death
remains a mystery.

The various children named above went about their own lives. Many remained
here in England, Hyman moved to Australia where all trace of him vanished;
Esther ended up in California, and Abraham, Benjamin and Israel came to
South Africa. The latter 3 changed their family name >from GOLDMAN to SCOTT,
and Abraham - now Abraham Gouldman SCOTT - married and had 2 sons and 2
daughters. The elder daughter, Edna, was my mother and the elder son,
Jack, my uncle.

In 1964 Jack SCOTT and his wife Sheila came over to London and I took them
to visit Jack's (first) cousin Sidney BARON, son of Annie GOLDMAN and her
husband Hymie BARON. My very old personal address book reminds me that
Sidney BARON and his wife Esther lived then at 13 Fryanston Road in
Croydon, and their phone number was ADD(iscombe)1930. A comparatively
painless drive in those far-off days.TheBARONs had 2 children, Paul and
Andrea Louise, whom we never met. I am hopeful that >from either their
father, or grandmother Annie, they may have learned something of their
great-grandparents lives. What made them leave their homes and
families? Did they have some prescience of horrendous pogroms, worse still
of the Holocaust? What was it that drove them to give their
children-to-come a better life in a better place? What unspeakable
hardships did they endure, both in Europe and England, to achieve their
dreams? We all need to think more of those wonderful people, who handed
down so very much to so many of us.

My wife (a born and bred Londoner, need I add) and I return to London
whenever possible. On a very recent trip I went stomping through the Mile
End area and walked the length of Globe Road. There, near the north end
amid more contemporary buildings, stood No.75, as it must have been over
100 years ago. Not run-down, and freshly painted. How did it withstand the
Blitz? Booth Street does not appear on any current London map. In fact I
cannot find it on an "A-Z" style street guide printed in 1936 - I possess
only 2 of pages it which cover the principal areas where our immigrant
forbears first lived, including Spitalfields. No index pages, of couse.

So, if you recognise the names of Paul and Andrea Louise BARON, please
contact me.

Yours sincerely,
Anthony Kaplan (Johannesburg).


JCR-UK SIG #UnitedKingdom GOLDMAN (Newcastle, Spitalfields, Mile End) and BARON (Croydon) #unitedkingdom

Anthony & Helen Kaplan <antkap@...>
 

I am optimistic that someone may recognise the names of Paul BARON and his
sister Andrea Louise BARON. They would have been in their late teens or
early 20s in the 1960s, at a time when I lived in London and for the better
part of that decade. Genealogical interest, let alone research, was the
not an interest of mine at that time. Both age (now closing in rapidly on
70) and the immense resources of the Internet have changed all that.

The main focus of my attention is on my (maternal) great-grandfather,
Harris (Yitzchak) GOLDMAN and his wife Rachel NOVOCOWEITZ who were born in
Poland (or thereabouts) in the early 1850s. They would have come to England
in the early 1870s, settling down initially in Newcastle-upon-Tyne, where
the first 4 of their 10 children were born - Esther, Annie, Benjamin and
Hyman. This is fact and confirmed in the 1881 census. The family came on to
London and here the next 6 children were born - Abraham, Lily, Emily,
Israel, Lena and Priscilla. They lived initially at 11 Booth Street,
Spitalfields (1881 census), later at 75 Globe Road, Mile End, where they
are documented in the 1891 census. Most of the family are accounted for in
the 1901 census, some having by now left the nest, but Harris GOLDMAN is
conspicuously absent >from the enumeration, which recorded the family in
Portsmouth. Harris was known to travel to Paris frequently, where he
had family as well as business interests. Perhaps he was abroad at census
time, perhaps he was deceased. I do not know. His place and time of death
remains a mystery.

The various children named above went about their own lives. Many remained
here in England, Hyman moved to Australia where all trace of him vanished;
Esther ended up in California, and Abraham, Benjamin and Israel came to
South Africa. The latter 3 changed their family name >from GOLDMAN to SCOTT,
and Abraham - now Abraham Gouldman SCOTT - married and had 2 sons and 2
daughters. The elder daughter, Edna, was my mother and the elder son,
Jack, my uncle.

In 1964 Jack SCOTT and his wife Sheila came over to London and I took them
to visit Jack's (first) cousin Sidney BARON, son of Annie GOLDMAN and her
husband Hymie BARON. My very old personal address book reminds me that
Sidney BARON and his wife Esther lived then at 13 Fryanston Road in
Croydon, and their phone number was ADD(iscombe)1930. A comparatively
painless drive in those far-off days.TheBARONs had 2 children, Paul and
Andrea Louise, whom we never met. I am hopeful that >from either their
father, or grandmother Annie, they may have learned something of their
great-grandparents lives. What made them leave their homes and
families? Did they have some prescience of horrendous pogroms, worse still
of the Holocaust? What was it that drove them to give their
children-to-come a better life in a better place? What unspeakable
hardships did they endure, both in Europe and England, to achieve their
dreams? We all need to think more of those wonderful people, who handed
down so very much to so many of us.

My wife (a born and bred Londoner, need I add) and I return to London
whenever possible. On a very recent trip I went stomping through the Mile
End area and walked the length of Globe Road. There, near the north end
amid more contemporary buildings, stood No.75, as it must have been over
100 years ago. Not run-down, and freshly painted. How did it withstand the
Blitz? Booth Street does not appear on any current London map. In fact I
cannot find it on an "A-Z" style street guide printed in 1936 - I possess
only 2 of pages it which cover the principal areas where our immigrant
forbears first lived, including Spitalfields. No index pages, of couse.

So, if you recognise the names of Paul and Andrea Louise BARON, please
contact me.

Yours sincerely,
Anthony Kaplan (Johannesburg).


Re: jcr-uk digest: May 14, 2005 #unitedkingdom

Israel P
 

Naomi, even the DOS program I use allows you to put Y or N in the marriage
field. If you say "N," the print-outs say "and" rather than "married."

It does not however allow certain modern devices such as gender changes and
unigender relationships.

(Perhaps in anticipation of the future, it doesn't disallow sibling marriages.)

Israel Pickholtz


Quoting JCR-UK SIG digest <jcr-uk@lyris.jewishgen.org>:

Dear all

I am sure this question has probably been asked before, but given that
in modern times a percentage of us live with our partners without being
married, how does one record this on the family tree? Any suggestions
welcome.

With warm regards

Naomi Fellerman
London UK


Re: Including unmarried partners in famly tree #unitedkingdom

Naidia Woolf <rnwoolf@...>
 

Logically, at least, unless you have children together there would be no
reason for including your unmarried partner's name on your family tree. The
whole point of a family tree is to trace the familial line -- ancestors and
descendants - back through the generations and forward through subsequent
generations (yourself and immediate family, children, grandchildren,
cousins, nephews, nieces, etc.).

I use Dorotree for building my family trees. Dorotree allows you to
enter the name of the husband and the name of the wife, followed by the
names of their children. Several of my relatives have lived with someone to
whom they were not married. Unless they have had children together I only
include the name of my relative.

Naidia Woolf
Formerly >from Birmingham, England
rnwoolf@earthlink.net

Researching:
ISAACS, Birmingham (family of Solomon and Sarah nee MORRIS), England/Poland
KUJAWSKI (Icek and Raca nee MICHALSON, or variant thereof), Lodz & Kleczew,
Poland
ZONENBERG, Lodz, Poland
MORRIS, Birmingham, England/Poland (town unknown)
ROSE/RAUS/DROZDIASZ (or variant), Preston, England/Karczew, Poland
SZAFIRSTEIN/SAPERSTEIN (or variant), Karczew, Poland
SHORN (family of Morris and Yetta), London, England/Poland (town unknown)


JCR-UK SIG #UnitedKingdom Re: jcr-uk digest: May 14, 2005 #unitedkingdom

Israel P
 

Naomi, even the DOS program I use allows you to put Y or N in the marriage
field. If you say "N," the print-outs say "and" rather than "married."

It does not however allow certain modern devices such as gender changes and
unigender relationships.

(Perhaps in anticipation of the future, it doesn't disallow sibling marriages.)

Israel Pickholtz


Quoting JCR-UK SIG digest <jcr-uk@lyris.jewishgen.org>:

Dear all

I am sure this question has probably been asked before, but given that
in modern times a percentage of us live with our partners without being
married, how does one record this on the family tree? Any suggestions
welcome.

With warm regards

Naomi Fellerman
London UK


JCR-UK SIG #UnitedKingdom RE: Including unmarried partners in famly tree #unitedkingdom

Naidia Woolf <rnwoolf@...>
 

Logically, at least, unless you have children together there would be no
reason for including your unmarried partner's name on your family tree. The
whole point of a family tree is to trace the familial line -- ancestors and
descendants - back through the generations and forward through subsequent
generations (yourself and immediate family, children, grandchildren,
cousins, nephews, nieces, etc.).

I use Dorotree for building my family trees. Dorotree allows you to
enter the name of the husband and the name of the wife, followed by the
names of their children. Several of my relatives have lived with someone to
whom they were not married. Unless they have had children together I only
include the name of my relative.

Naidia Woolf
Formerly >from Birmingham, England
rnwoolf@earthlink.net

Researching:
ISAACS, Birmingham (family of Solomon and Sarah nee MORRIS), England/Poland
KUJAWSKI (Icek and Raca nee MICHALSON, or variant thereof), Lodz & Kleczew,
Poland
ZONENBERG, Lodz, Poland
MORRIS, Birmingham, England/Poland (town unknown)
ROSE/RAUS/DROZDIASZ (or variant), Preston, England/Karczew, Poland
SZAFIRSTEIN/SAPERSTEIN (or variant), Karczew, Poland
SHORN (family of Morris and Yetta), London, England/Poland (town unknown)


Re: Follow-up on Yetcha name #germany

buckidstein@...
 

In Germany in the 1800s, Jewish women had several names in the course of
their lives, following different fashions. Those born in the first decades got
the traditional names of Hebrew or German origin. A diminuitive ending like
-che(n), -ge(n), -el, -le was added at once or later. Thus Judith became e.g.
Juedle / Jittel and Gute = English good was changed into e.g. Guetle / Gidele.

Due to dialects and inexpert writers, all the letters of the two words were
mixed. It is a frequent experience that on cannot find out for one person, if
her original name was Judith or Gute.

Since the middle of the century, Jewish women started their form of
emancipation and acculturation by adopting **normal** German first names.

Those with the combination J...tt... were changed into Jette. Like the men they
followed the rule to have a rhyme at the beginning. The third step (of one and
the same person) was to exchange this short form for the corresponding long one:
Henriette, Johannette, Jeannette.

Since these names were liked extremely, one can study the development of
their forms in every family. To explain the name in question one has to follow
this historical method. The letters Y- at the beginning and -a at the end of
the name Yechta were used by a person who did not know the German spelling,
yet he rendered the German pronunciation.

Gerhard Buck - Idstein - Germany


German SIG #Germany Re: Follow-up on Yetcha name #germany

buckidstein@...
 

In Germany in the 1800s, Jewish women had several names in the course of
their lives, following different fashions. Those born in the first decades got
the traditional names of Hebrew or German origin. A diminuitive ending like
-che(n), -ge(n), -el, -le was added at once or later. Thus Judith became e.g.
Juedle / Jittel and Gute = English good was changed into e.g. Guetle / Gidele.

Due to dialects and inexpert writers, all the letters of the two words were
mixed. It is a frequent experience that on cannot find out for one person, if
her original name was Judith or Gute.

Since the middle of the century, Jewish women started their form of
emancipation and acculturation by adopting **normal** German first names.

Those with the combination J...tt... were changed into Jette. Like the men they
followed the rule to have a rhyme at the beginning. The third step (of one and
the same person) was to exchange this short form for the corresponding long one:
Henriette, Johannette, Jeannette.

Since these names were liked extremely, one can study the development of
their forms in every family. To explain the name in question one has to follow
this historical method. The letters Y- at the beginning and -a at the end of
the name Yechta were used by a person who did not know the German spelling,
yet he rendered the German pronunciation.

Gerhard Buck - Idstein - Germany


Re: German Jewish name of Yetcha #germany

Pamela Weisberger <pweisberger@...>
 

Michael writes:

< Jettchen MEYER. . . . . I don't know much about her other than that she
came >from the Frankfurt area, >

For what it's worth...."my" Yetta (great-grandmother), also known as
"Henrietta" and "Hatty" on various US documents, was born: Jacheta, as
translated >from her Polish birth record, >from the Hebrew name Yokhved, the
mother of Moses and Aaron.

Alexander Beider in his book "A Dictionary of Ashkenazic Given Names" makes
reference to the variants Yakhet and Jachet, as German transcriptions >from
Hebrew. These too might work!

Pamela Weisberger Santa Monica, CA pweisberger@hotmail.com

MODERATOR NOTE: After Sunday, 15 May, all further discussion of this
will be off-list. Case closed.


German SIG #Germany Re:German Jewish name of Yetcha #germany

Pamela Weisberger <pweisberger@...>
 

Michael writes:

< Jettchen MEYER. . . . . I don't know much about her other than that she
came >from the Frankfurt area, >

For what it's worth...."my" Yetta (great-grandmother), also known as
"Henrietta" and "Hatty" on various US documents, was born: Jacheta, as
translated >from her Polish birth record, >from the Hebrew name Yokhved, the
mother of Moses and Aaron.

Alexander Beider in his book "A Dictionary of Ashkenazic Given Names" makes
reference to the variants Yakhet and Jachet, as German transcriptions >from
Hebrew. These too might work!

Pamela Weisberger Santa Monica, CA pweisberger@hotmail.com

MODERATOR NOTE: After Sunday, 15 May, all further discussion of this
will be off-list. Case closed.


New JewishGen Database - Lipshutz/Peoples Bank Passage Order Records #general

Warren Blatt <wblatt@...>
 

JewishGen is pleased to announce a new Philadelphia-based
immigration database: The Lipshutz/Peoples Bank Passage Order
Records for the Port of Philadelphia.
< http://www.jewishgen.org/databases/USA/PhilaLipshutz.htm >.

In the port cities on the east coast of the U.S. in the late 19th
and early 20th century, there were "ethnic" or "immigrant" banks -
commercial enterprises where recent immigrants could save money
and arrange to purchase steamship tickets to bring their families
to the U.S. In Philadelphia, HIAS preserved the original records
of four immigrant banks formerly operating in the city.

To our knowledge, no other such records have survived,
either in Philadelphia or in any of the other port cities.
The first immigrant bank records to be indexed was the
Blitzstein Bank, added in Feb 2004, which can be searched at
< http://www.jewishgen.org/databases/USA/PhilaBlitzstein.htm >.
Now the second bank, the Lipshutz/Peoples Bank, has been added.

Today, the record books of these banks are housed at the
Philadelphia Jewish Archives Center (PJAC). In addition to
information about the immigrant, these records often contain
the name and address of the person who paid for the tickets,
port of entry (usually, but not always, Philadelphia), and
intended final destination (again, not necessarily Philadelphia).

Through the collaboration of PJAC, the Jewish Genealogical Society
of Greater Philadelphia, and JewishGen, the Lipshutz/Peoples Bank
records have been indexed. This online database includes
information on 25,112 passengers who purchased tickets between
1906 and 1949.

The Lipshutz/Peoples Bank Passage Order Books can be searched at:
< http://www.jewishgen.org/databases/USA/PhilaLipshutz.htm >.

All of JewishGen's databases can be found at
< http://www.jewishgen.org/databases >.

Warren

Warren Blatt
JewishGen Editor-in-Chief
< wblatt@jewishgen.org >


JewishGen Discussion Group #JewishGen New JewishGen Database - Lipshutz/Peoples Bank Passage Order Records #general

Warren Blatt <wblatt@...>
 

JewishGen is pleased to announce a new Philadelphia-based
immigration database: The Lipshutz/Peoples Bank Passage Order
Records for the Port of Philadelphia.
< http://www.jewishgen.org/databases/USA/PhilaLipshutz.htm >.

In the port cities on the east coast of the U.S. in the late 19th
and early 20th century, there were "ethnic" or "immigrant" banks -
commercial enterprises where recent immigrants could save money
and arrange to purchase steamship tickets to bring their families
to the U.S. In Philadelphia, HIAS preserved the original records
of four immigrant banks formerly operating in the city.

To our knowledge, no other such records have survived,
either in Philadelphia or in any of the other port cities.
The first immigrant bank records to be indexed was the
Blitzstein Bank, added in Feb 2004, which can be searched at
< http://www.jewishgen.org/databases/USA/PhilaBlitzstein.htm >.
Now the second bank, the Lipshutz/Peoples Bank, has been added.

Today, the record books of these banks are housed at the
Philadelphia Jewish Archives Center (PJAC). In addition to
information about the immigrant, these records often contain
the name and address of the person who paid for the tickets,
port of entry (usually, but not always, Philadelphia), and
intended final destination (again, not necessarily Philadelphia).

Through the collaboration of PJAC, the Jewish Genealogical Society
of Greater Philadelphia, and JewishGen, the Lipshutz/Peoples Bank
records have been indexed. This online database includes
information on 25,112 passengers who purchased tickets between
1906 and 1949.

The Lipshutz/Peoples Bank Passage Order Books can be searched at:
< http://www.jewishgen.org/databases/USA/PhilaLipshutz.htm >.

All of JewishGen's databases can be found at
< http://www.jewishgen.org/databases >.

Warren

Warren Blatt
JewishGen Editor-in-Chief
< wblatt@jewishgen.org >


Re: meschanin #belarus

Marlene <mlbishow@...>
 

In response to Irene's posting regarding the term "meschanin," I contacted
Yuri Dorn for a further clarification. He indicated that "Permanent
resident" is more precisely describes the meaning of "meschanin" and that
there was another class of people cold "Kupetz". That status referred to
those people whose income was not less than particular number.

I would also think that the definition of "petty bourgeois" is also
appropriate, but lacks the component of the registration in the census. What
I have observed is that once someone is recorded in a town, follow-up census
continue to mention the individual - enven if only to state that the person
was missing.

Marlene Bishow
Rockville, MD

Researching HANTMAN/GANTMAN in Smilovichi and Novyy Sverxhen
and ZINGER/SINGER in Koidenov (Dzerzhinsk)


Belarus SIG #Belarus Re: meschanin #belarus

Marlene <mlbishow@...>
 

In response to Irene's posting regarding the term "meschanin," I contacted
Yuri Dorn for a further clarification. He indicated that "Permanent
resident" is more precisely describes the meaning of "meschanin" and that
there was another class of people cold "Kupetz". That status referred to
those people whose income was not less than particular number.

I would also think that the definition of "petty bourgeois" is also
appropriate, but lacks the component of the registration in the census. What
I have observed is that once someone is recorded in a town, follow-up census
continue to mention the individual - enven if only to state that the person
was missing.

Marlene Bishow
Rockville, MD

Researching HANTMAN/GANTMAN in Smilovichi and Novyy Sverxhen
and ZINGER/SINGER in Koidenov (Dzerzhinsk)


Kravitz / Wanachuck(sp) #general

Steven B. Taylor <sbt914@...>
 

I am seeking information on an Aaron KRAVITZ of Savannah , GA and Bessie
WANACHUK (sp).

Thank you,

Steve Taylor
sbt914@comcast.net


JewishGen Discussion Group #JewishGen Kravitz / Wanachuck(sp) #general

Steven B. Taylor <sbt914@...>
 

I am seeking information on an Aaron KRAVITZ of Savannah , GA and Bessie
WANACHUK (sp).

Thank you,

Steve Taylor
sbt914@comcast.net


Re: Ujazd Galicia STEINMETZ #general

Peter Zavon <pzavon@...>
 

Let's be clear about this. The records themselves were not transferred from
Catholic churches to anywhere. The _responsibility_ for creating new
records was transferred.

According to Suzan Wynne's "Finding Your Jewish Roots in Galicia", the
Austrian government began requiring civil registration of births, deaths and
marriages in 1784. The Catholic Church was responsible for this in the
early years, a rational requirement as they already had a system for
recording such information for their congregations. Apparently no Jewish
records have been found in these Catholic parish record books of Galicia,
but they have been reported in other jurisdictions and it is not impossible
that some will be found in the future. In other jurisdictions, the Jewish
metrical records were in the back of the Catholic books, and Jewish births
were often recorded as illegitimate as they were not the product of a
Catholic marriage.

After a time the records were maintained, in theory, by the recognized
Jewish communities, but this was haphazard at first, for reasons that are
too complex to get into here but that Wynne covers in her book. Wynne is
not specific about the date when the transfer was made to the Jewish
communities and given the haphazard early recording in the Jewish
Communities and the apparent lack of records in the Catholic parishes just
before, it may be that the specific date has little practical importance.

This question is also impacted by geopolitical history. The last Partition
of Poland was after 1784. This means than Austrian requirements issued in
1784 had no even theoretical force in some parts of what we now think of as
Galicia, as those parts were not yet under Austrian control. Further, in
the course of the Partitions and the Napoleonic Wars that followed not long
after, the lands held by Austria in and around what we now call Galicia
changed substantially with the fortunes of war, etc. It is only after the
Congress of Vienna when borders were stabilized and you can see Galicia
begin to be administered in a form we might recognize today as historical
Galicia.

Peter Zavon, Editor
Gesher Galicia Family Finder
Penfield, NY

PZAVON@Rochester.RR.Com

-----Original Message-----
From: Barb & Howard [mailto:barb@thecollective.com]
Sent: Saturday, May 14, 2005 2:27 PM
To: 'Peter Zavon'; 'JewishGen Discussion Group'; 'Alexander Sharon'
Subject: RE: Ujazd Galicia STEINMETZ


Thank you Peter Zavon, and Alexander Sharon, for your insightful responses,
however one question and response triggers another question.

Are you able to suggest the approximate time period when the Jewish records
were supposedly transferred >from the Catholic Parish churches to Rohatyn?
This question is being tendered simply because when having sought out the
LDS Rohatyn records, in Salt Lake, the only records located were the
beautifully written hand entries for the Rohatyn Christian population.
Subsequently, when the JRI Burshtyn records became available, I found that
in Burshtyn is where most of the entries for the surrounding communities
were found. A very few of the entries were also found to be repeated
(duplicated) in Burshtyn as were initially located in Rohatyn.
In the case of our KLARNET family in Rohatyn/Zaluze; they did not appear in
the Burshtyn records at all. The history slowly unfolds, layer by layer.
Thanks for all the creative help to both of you and all the others who have
so graciously responded.

Sincerely,

Howard Steinmetz


JewishGen Discussion Group #JewishGen RE: Ujazd Galicia STEINMETZ #general

Peter Zavon <pzavon@...>
 

Let's be clear about this. The records themselves were not transferred from
Catholic churches to anywhere. The _responsibility_ for creating new
records was transferred.

According to Suzan Wynne's "Finding Your Jewish Roots in Galicia", the
Austrian government began requiring civil registration of births, deaths and
marriages in 1784. The Catholic Church was responsible for this in the
early years, a rational requirement as they already had a system for
recording such information for their congregations. Apparently no Jewish
records have been found in these Catholic parish record books of Galicia,
but they have been reported in other jurisdictions and it is not impossible
that some will be found in the future. In other jurisdictions, the Jewish
metrical records were in the back of the Catholic books, and Jewish births
were often recorded as illegitimate as they were not the product of a
Catholic marriage.

After a time the records were maintained, in theory, by the recognized
Jewish communities, but this was haphazard at first, for reasons that are
too complex to get into here but that Wynne covers in her book. Wynne is
not specific about the date when the transfer was made to the Jewish
communities and given the haphazard early recording in the Jewish
Communities and the apparent lack of records in the Catholic parishes just
before, it may be that the specific date has little practical importance.

This question is also impacted by geopolitical history. The last Partition
of Poland was after 1784. This means than Austrian requirements issued in
1784 had no even theoretical force in some parts of what we now think of as
Galicia, as those parts were not yet under Austrian control. Further, in
the course of the Partitions and the Napoleonic Wars that followed not long
after, the lands held by Austria in and around what we now call Galicia
changed substantially with the fortunes of war, etc. It is only after the
Congress of Vienna when borders were stabilized and you can see Galicia
begin to be administered in a form we might recognize today as historical
Galicia.

Peter Zavon, Editor
Gesher Galicia Family Finder
Penfield, NY

PZAVON@Rochester.RR.Com

-----Original Message-----
From: Barb & Howard [mailto:barb@thecollective.com]
Sent: Saturday, May 14, 2005 2:27 PM
To: 'Peter Zavon'; 'JewishGen Discussion Group'; 'Alexander Sharon'
Subject: RE: Ujazd Galicia STEINMETZ


Thank you Peter Zavon, and Alexander Sharon, for your insightful responses,
however one question and response triggers another question.

Are you able to suggest the approximate time period when the Jewish records
were supposedly transferred >from the Catholic Parish churches to Rohatyn?
This question is being tendered simply because when having sought out the
LDS Rohatyn records, in Salt Lake, the only records located were the
beautifully written hand entries for the Rohatyn Christian population.
Subsequently, when the JRI Burshtyn records became available, I found that
in Burshtyn is where most of the entries for the surrounding communities
were found. A very few of the entries were also found to be repeated
(duplicated) in Burshtyn as were initially located in Rohatyn.
In the case of our KLARNET family in Rohatyn/Zaluze; they did not appear in
the Burshtyn records at all. The history slowly unfolds, layer by layer.
Thanks for all the creative help to both of you and all the others who have
so graciously responded.

Sincerely,

Howard Steinmetz