On Mon, 28 Mar 2005 20:14:57 UTC, anitac47@optonline.net (ac) opined:

What is interesting is that, as I have explained to others, the clerks seemed to
have homogenized the names so that there are no variants so that there are only
Sruls but no Israels, Mordkos but no Mordechais, Sura but no Sara, etc. I'm not
sure if this was the way it is actually recorded in the registers or the clerks
in the archives who typed this up did it. My experience with register sheets
is that there are variants sometimes.

The fact is that the translators and transliterators do not "homogenize". The
"nicknames" that you find in the JRI indices are pretty much what are in the
Polish or Russian originals. Those are the names that people used, that they were
called by, that they were registered under at birth, upon marriage, and at death.
Explaining their occurence as a foible of the translators has no basis in fact.

What I've learned in doing this (for the first time) is that it is not exact and
if you have any number of versions of the transliterations of the Cyrillic
letters you will have that many slight differences. I've been told to use
Beider's, or the LOC. I've downloaded many >from different Slavic language
departments. I only found one that goes letter by letter to give explanations of
the sounds, the changes depending on their positions in a word, etc.

The Cyrillic alphabets are, in fact, one of the more phonetically exact and
consistent. The Russian version has only one case of apparent inconsistency: The
masculine/neuter-genitive-plural suffix for nouns is spelled with a G, as in all
other Slavic languages, but is ordinarily pronounced as V in Russian. There are
no"changes depending on their position in a word". But I have even heard a Russian
pronounce it as G when emphasizing precision.

Stan Goodman, Qiryat Tiv'on, Israel

Searching:
NEACHOWICZ/NOACHOWICZ, NEJMAN/NAJMAN, SURALSKI: >from Lomza Gubernia
ISMACH: >from Lomza Gubernia, Galicia, and Ukraina
HERTANU, ABRAMOVICI, LAUER: >from Dorohoi District, Romania
GRISARU, VATARU: >from Iasi, Dorohoi, and Mileanca, Romania

See my interactive family tree (requires Java 1.1.6 or better). the URL is:
http://www.hashkedim.com

For reasons connected with anti-spam/junk security, the return address is not
valid. To communicate with me, please visit my website (see the URL above -- no
Java required for this purpose) and fill in the email form there.

Alexander Sharon wrote: There is no question that Ellis Island scribes have
distorted many shtetls names but at least they have managed to write the first
letter of the town name correct.

To that I add, "Yes, but" >from personal experience. My grandfather Jacob ZIMMER
came through Ellis Island at least twice. On one of those occassions, his name was
written with the script Z (the kind of Z that goes beneath the line), but the name
of the town Zborow was written with what I call the "Zorro Z" - three broad
strokes. When this information was transcribed it was erroneously determined that
he came >from Ilvorow (with an initial I and then an L) because that is what is
looks like. Moral: even if the town **were spelled correctly, it might have
been read incorrectly.

Barbara Zimmer
Virginia

On Mon, 28 Mar 2005 20:14:57 UTC, anitac47@optonline.net (ac) opined:

What is interesting is that, as I have explained to others, the clerks seemed to
have homogenized the names so that there are no variants so that there are only
Sruls but no Israels, Mordkos but no Mordechais, Sura but no Sara, etc. I'm not
sure if this was the way it is actually recorded in the registers or the clerks
in the archives who typed this up did it. My experience with register sheets
is that there are variants sometimes.

The fact is that the translators and transliterators do not "homogenize". The
"nicknames" that you find in the JRI indices are pretty much what are in the
Polish or Russian originals. Those are the names that people used, that they were
called by, that they were registered under at birth, upon marriage, and at death.
Explaining their occurence as a foible of the translators has no basis in fact.

What I've learned in doing this (for the first time) is that it is not exact and
if you have any number of versions of the transliterations of the Cyrillic
letters you will have that many slight differences. I've been told to use
Beider's, or the LOC. I've downloaded many >from different Slavic language
departments. I only found one that goes letter by letter to give explanations of
the sounds, the changes depending on their positions in a word, etc.

The Cyrillic alphabets are, in fact, one of the more phonetically exact and
consistent. The Russian version has only one case of apparent inconsistency: The
masculine/neuter-genitive-plural suffix for nouns is spelled with a G, as in all
other Slavic languages, but is ordinarily pronounced as V in Russian. There are
no"changes depending on their position in a word". But I have even heard a Russian
pronounce it as G when emphasizing precision.

Stan Goodman, Qiryat Tiv'on, Israel

Searching:
NEACHOWICZ/NOACHOWICZ, NEJMAN/NAJMAN, SURALSKI: >from Lomza Gubernia
ISMACH: >from Lomza Gubernia, Galicia, and Ukraina
HERTANU, ABRAMOVICI, LAUER: >from Dorohoi District, Romania
GRISARU, VATARU: >from Iasi, Dorohoi, and Mileanca, Romania

See my interactive family tree (requires Java 1.1.6 or better). the URL is:
http://www.hashkedim.com

For reasons connected with anti-spam/junk security, the return address is not
valid. To communicate with me, please visit my website (see the URL above -- no
Java required for this purpose) and fill in the email form there.

Alexander Sharon wrote: There is no question that Ellis Island scribes have
distorted many shtetls names but at least they have managed to write the first
letter of the town name correct.

To that I add, "Yes, but" >from personal experience. My grandfather Jacob ZIMMER
came through Ellis Island at least twice. On one of those occassions, his name was
written with the script Z (the kind of Z that goes beneath the line), but the name
of the town Zborow was written with what I call the "Zorro Z" - three broad
strokes. When this information was transcribed it was erroneously determined that
he came >from Ilvorow (with an initial I and then an L) because that is what is
looks like. Moral: even if the town **were spelled correctly, it might have
been read incorrectly.

Barbara Zimmer
Virginia

Many apologies for my error (I received a number of responses). That's what I get
for answering email too early in the morning.

My grandfather told us Minsk, Kiev, Ukraine, Russia. (I don't know why I was
thinking about Odessa.) My grandfather's social security number application lists
his birthplace as "Neshweiser, Russia", which may be Nesvizh, Belarus, and that's
why there is confusion as to whether my grandfather was >from Belarus or Ukraine.

All of the descendants, that I have located, of Barnet(t) David FRIEDMAN and Sarah
THURLIN / TURCHIN seem to have been told Ukraine, but no one has any definitive
proof. I have been unable to locate emigration records for this family. It is
possible they came through Castle Garden. They were definitely in New York City by
1903, but it is possible that Barnet(t) was in New York City as early as 1888 -
returning later for his family.

I apologize for the confusion.

Vicki Ina Friedman
Ball Ground, GA, USA
dreambuilder@tds.net

Many apologies for my error (I received a number of responses). That's what I get
for answering email too early in the morning.

My grandfather told us Minsk, Kiev, Ukraine, Russia. (I don't know why I was
thinking about Odessa.) My grandfather's social security number application lists
his birthplace as "Neshweiser, Russia", which may be Nesvizh, Belarus, and that's
why there is confusion as to whether my grandfather was >from Belarus or Ukraine.

All of the descendants, that I have located, of Barnet(t) David FRIEDMAN and Sarah
THURLIN / TURCHIN seem to have been told Ukraine, but no one has any definitive
proof. I have been unable to locate emigration records for this family. It is
possible they came through Castle Garden. They were definitely in New York City by
1903, but it is possible that Barnet(t) was in New York City as early as 1888 -
returning later for his family.

I apologize for the confusion.

Vicki Ina Friedman
Ball Ground, GA, USA
dreambuilder@tds.net

Dear group,
My greatgrandfather was Meyer LAPIDUS. According to family stories, he had
a brother named Nachum KARPILOFF.

I was contacted by someone in England whose father was a LAPIDUS. As we
chatted, it turned out he had michpocha KOPALOFF.

We didn't find an immediate link, but as you can surmise, I'm convinced
that the dual surnames is more than coincidence -- but that's not my question.

Taking into consideration the American and British accents, can anyone
hypothesize which KARPILOFF / KOPALOFF surname "begat" the other? Or the
origin of the name? Both families are >from the Ukraine - Mariupol area.

Regards,
Hilary Henkin
Atlanta, Georgia

Dear group,
My greatgrandfather was Meyer LAPIDUS. According to family stories, he had
a brother named Nachum KARPILOFF.

I was contacted by someone in England whose father was a LAPIDUS. As we
chatted, it turned out he had michpocha KOPALOFF.

We didn't find an immediate link, but as you can surmise, I'm convinced
that the dual surnames is more than coincidence -- but that's not my question.

Taking into consideration the American and British accents, can anyone
hypothesize which KARPILOFF / KOPALOFF surname "begat" the other? Or the
origin of the name? Both families are >from the Ukraine - Mariupol area.

Regards,
Hilary Henkin
Atlanta, Georgia

Hi Genners, I would like to know the distance between Zvenyhorodka and
Kiev as well as the distance between Zvenyhorodka and Odessa. Are you
familiar with the village of Vilkhovets?

Thank You,
Doris

Dear Doris,

Perhaps the Vilkhovets that you are referring to is the Vilchovits
located in the former Austro-Hungarian Marmaros county? This
Vilchovits is located about 40 km east of Chust, (north of Tecso)
between Ternovo and Neresniza. It was a center for the Vishnitz
Chassidim, as the family of the Vishnitzer Rebbe (surname
HAGER) lived there.

There is a medium-length article about this town in Sefer Marmaros
(the Marmaros Yizkor Book).

However, this is nowhere near Kiev or Odessa.

Hope this helps,

Moshe Davis
Jerusalem

I recently (finally) found my grandmother's family at Ellis Island thanks to
Dayna who recommended one of Steve Morse's search methods. I knew the name of
the ship and all the people who came but had no idea what the surname was
other than it started with an N. It was amazing how quickly it worked!

So now, I am looking for other members of the family NADGORNAJA, NADGORNY

from the Kiev area (Brasilow was listed on the manifest). They all changed their

names to GORDON. I'm told that they had many family reunions and called them
the GORDON circle. My GORDONS lived in New Bedford, MA.

Thanks,
Bonnie Dinnerman Sobelson
Atlanta
Bonsobel@aol.com

Hi Genners, I would like to know the distance between Zvenyhorodka and
Kiev as well as the distance between Zvenyhorodka and Odessa. Are you
familiar with the village of Vilkhovets?

Thank You,
Doris

Dear Doris,

Perhaps the Vilkhovets that you are referring to is the Vilchovits
located in the former Austro-Hungarian Marmaros county? This
Vilchovits is located about 40 km east of Chust, (north of Tecso)
between Ternovo and Neresniza. It was a center for the Vishnitz
Chassidim, as the family of the Vishnitzer Rebbe (surname
HAGER) lived there.

There is a medium-length article about this town in Sefer Marmaros
(the Marmaros Yizkor Book).

However, this is nowhere near Kiev or Odessa.

Hope this helps,

Moshe Davis
Jerusalem

I recently (finally) found my grandmother's family at Ellis Island thanks to
Dayna who recommended one of Steve Morse's search methods. I knew the name of
the ship and all the people who came but had no idea what the surname was
other than it started with an N. It was amazing how quickly it worked!

So now, I am looking for other members of the family NADGORNAJA, NADGORNY

from the Kiev area (Brasilow was listed on the manifest). They all changed their

names to GORDON. I'm told that they had many family reunions and called them
the GORDON circle. My GORDONS lived in New Bedford, MA.

Thanks,
Bonnie Dinnerman Sobelson
Atlanta
Bonsobel@aol.com

Dear Genners,
I have posted four photos at ViewMate. These are the direct URLs:

http://data.jewishgen.org/ViewMate/ALL/viewmateview.asp?key=5789
http://data.jewishgen.org/ViewMate/ALL/viewmateview.asp?key=5790
I hope someone might be able to recognize this lost branch of my family,
either AISIN
(& variations) or GUREVICH (or GUREFF?). They lived originally in
Yekaterinoslav
Gubernia, Ukraine. The two photos were taken in aprox. 1935, maybe in
Philadelphia.

http://data.jewishgen.org/ViewMate/ALL/viewmateview.asp?key=5791
She is Mania ABRAMOVICH, my father´s cousin, born aprox. in 1895, and lived
in Lugansk, Yekaterinoslav Gubernia, Ukraine. She´s related to my family either
by the AISINs or the GUREVICHs. Do you recognize her? Do you know her descendents?
On the back side of this photo there´s an inscription in Russian. See next VM.

http://data.jewishgen.org/ViewMate/ALL/viewmateview.asp?key=5792
I would like to ask for a translation >from Russian. It´s an inscription on
the back side of the photo of Mania Abramovich, in the previous VM.

Please respond privately to me at: aizim@uol.com.br
Thanks very much for any help you can give me.

Eliana Aizim

from Rio de Janeiro, Brazil

see photo album: http://www.geocities.com/elianaaizim/photo2.html

AISEN, AIZEN, AISIN: Ukraine /Argentina / Brazil;
GUREVICH: Ukraine / USA;
VATNICK, VAITMAN, WHITE: Ukraine / Canada / Brazil;
AVERBUCH: Ukraine / Brazil.

Dear Genners,
I have posted four photos at ViewMate. These are the direct URLs:

http://data.jewishgen.org/ViewMate/ALL/viewmateview.asp?key=5789
http://data.jewishgen.org/ViewMate/ALL/viewmateview.asp?key=5790
I hope someone might be able to recognize this lost branch of my family,
either AISIN
(& variations) or GUREVICH (or GUREFF?). They lived originally in
Yekaterinoslav
Gubernia, Ukraine. The two photos were taken in aprox. 1935, maybe in
Philadelphia.

http://data.jewishgen.org/ViewMate/ALL/viewmateview.asp?key=5791
She is Mania ABRAMOVICH, my father´s cousin, born aprox. in 1895, and lived
in Lugansk, Yekaterinoslav Gubernia, Ukraine. She´s related to my family either
by the AISINs or the GUREVICHs. Do you recognize her? Do you know her descendents?
On the back side of this photo there´s an inscription in Russian. See next VM.

http://data.jewishgen.org/ViewMate/ALL/viewmateview.asp?key=5792
I would like to ask for a translation >from Russian. It´s an inscription on
the back side of the photo of Mania Abramovich, in the previous VM.

Please respond privately to me at: aizim@uol.com.br
Thanks very much for any help you can give me.

Eliana Aizim

from Rio de Janeiro, Brazil

see photo album: http://www.geocities.com/elianaaizim/photo2.html

AISEN, AIZEN, AISIN: Ukraine /Argentina / Brazil;
GUREVICH: Ukraine / USA;
VATNICK, VAITMAN, WHITE: Ukraine / Canada / Brazil;
AVERBUCH: Ukraine / Brazil.

I have posted two letters believed to have been written by my
grandfather, a rabbi in Bessarabia, around 1920. The file names are
VM5807 and VM5809 and can be viewed at

http://data.jewishgen.org/viewmate/ALL/index.asp

We have already received a couple of translations for the first file,
VM5807. The second one was written to introduce my father to a rabbi in
Paris as he traveled >from Europe to Canada.

Any and all assistance with translation is greatly appreciated.

Michael Burke
ichiro@spinegroup.com
Portland, Oregon

I have posted two letters believed to have been written by my
grandfather, a rabbi in Bessarabia, around 1920. The file names are
VM5807 and VM5809 and can be viewed at

http://data.jewishgen.org/viewmate/ALL/index.asp

We have already received a couple of translations for the first file,
VM5807. The second one was written to introduce my father to a rabbi in
Paris as he traveled >from Europe to Canada.

Any and all assistance with translation is greatly appreciated.

Michael Burke
ichiro@spinegroup.com
Portland, Oregon

Mazeltov!
As of today, we now have *1604* members in the Ukraine SIG. Hope
to see most of you at 2005 Las Vegas Conference!

There will be a General Meeting to update you about current projects, & give
you a chance to meet our Steering Committee. We will also be having a SIG
Luncheon during which we will have presentations by members who went travelling
thru the Ukraine.
The Conference website isn't complete, but once it is, the schedule should
be posted for all events & speakers. (Don't write to me, as I haven't got
the time details yet.)

See you there!
Warm regards,
Florence Elman
Ukraine SIG Coordinator
haflo@shaw.ca

Mazeltov!
As of today, we now have *1604* members in the Ukraine SIG. Hope
to see most of you at 2005 Las Vegas Conference!

There will be a General Meeting to update you about current projects, & give
you a chance to meet our Steering Committee. We will also be having a SIG
Luncheon during which we will have presentations by members who went travelling
thru the Ukraine.
The Conference website isn't complete, but once it is, the schedule should
be posted for all events & speakers. (Don't write to me, as I haven't got
the time details yet.)

See you there!
Warm regards,
Florence Elman
Ukraine SIG Coordinator
haflo@shaw.ca

My thanks to those of you on the list who responded to my query.

I appreciate the correction as to my use of the word "reincarnation", which,
I learned, generally is applied to a return to life in human form. It was
this belief with which I was somewhat familiar as a belief that was prominent
in mystical thought, including that of Hasidism.

The more appropriate word in referring to returning to life as an animal, I
have been told, is "transmigration," which also can refer to returning in
human form. This belief was foreign to me as a Jewish belief.

As to my family's "shtick," it came down to me through one aunt. She pretty
much had the belief related to farm animals (no doubt because those were the
animals they had in Yarun). And it seemed that coming back as an animal
was directly related to a person doing evil during his/her life.

So far, people on the lists have confirmed similar beliefs in Hasidic
circles. In my opinion, it was probably what I would consider a folk belief that
found its way into the community because it was an extension of other beliefs
about reincaration and such.

While this hasn't really helped me to narrow down my geographic focus, it
was nice to know that Aunt Anna wasn't alone out there.

Arnold D. Samlan
West Hempstead, NY

Researching: SAMLAN (CHICAGO, HAMILTON ONT., MONTREAL), SHENKER (MONTREAL),
KOOPERMAN/COOPERMAN/KUPERMAN (YARUN/YARIN), BRODER/BROTHER (HIRCHIRKI ??)

My thanks to those of you on the list who responded to my query.

I appreciate the correction as to my use of the word "reincarnation", which,
I learned, generally is applied to a return to life in human form. It was
this belief with which I was somewhat familiar as a belief that was prominent
in mystical thought, including that of Hasidism.

The more appropriate word in referring to returning to life as an animal, I
have been told, is "transmigration," which also can refer to returning in
human form. This belief was foreign to me as a Jewish belief.

As to my family's "shtick," it came down to me through one aunt. She pretty
much had the belief related to farm animals (no doubt because those were the
animals they had in Yarun). And it seemed that coming back as an animal
was directly related to a person doing evil during his/her life.

So far, people on the lists have confirmed similar beliefs in Hasidic
circles. In my opinion, it was probably what I would consider a folk belief that
found its way into the community because it was an extension of other beliefs
about reincaration and such.

While this hasn't really helped me to narrow down my geographic focus, it
was nice to know that Aunt Anna wasn't alone out there.

Arnold D. Samlan
West Hempstead, NY

Researching: SAMLAN (CHICAGO, HAMILTON ONT., MONTREAL), SHENKER (MONTREAL),
KOOPERMAN/COOPERMAN/KUPERMAN (YARUN/YARIN), BRODER/BROTHER (HIRCHIRKI ??)