Date   

Early American Sig meeting at eh IAJGS conference #usa

RecordsAccess@...
 

To all Yankee Doodle Jewish Genners,

How many of you are going to the IAJGS conference in Las Vegas next July?

It would be nice to meet you face to face.

I have reserved a room for a "Birds of a Feather" meeting for the Early
American Sig on Tuesday at 12 noon.

In Washington 2 years ago we had about 30 people who attended the meeting.

Marvin Weinberg
Coordinator, Early American Sig

P. S. If you have any suggestions for topics or projects that you would like
to discuss, please let me know by E mail, either through the Sig or
directly to me. Or just send a note that you'll be there.


Early American SIG #USA Early American Sig meeting at eh IAJGS conference #usa

RecordsAccess@...
 

To all Yankee Doodle Jewish Genners,

How many of you are going to the IAJGS conference in Las Vegas next July?

It would be nice to meet you face to face.

I have reserved a room for a "Birds of a Feather" meeting for the Early
American Sig on Tuesday at 12 noon.

In Washington 2 years ago we had about 30 people who attended the meeting.

Marvin Weinberg
Coordinator, Early American Sig

P. S. If you have any suggestions for topics or projects that you would like
to discuss, please let me know by E mail, either through the Sig or
directly to me. Or just send a note that you'll be there.


Emil Rathenau #germany

Werner Zimmt <wsz@...>
 

I have been searching for the ancestors of Emil RATHENAU, born in Berlin
Dec 11 1838. I found one biography that mentioned his mother's maiden name,
described his father and 2 brothers, but never gave any names. If that
information is available, I would apprciate getting it, or at least a
website I could go to.

Werner Zimmt Tucson, AZ <wsz@Ag.arizona.edu>


German SIG #Germany Emil Rathenau #germany

Werner Zimmt <wsz@...>
 

I have been searching for the ancestors of Emil RATHENAU, born in Berlin
Dec 11 1838. I found one biography that mentioned his mother's maiden name,
described his father and 2 brothers, but never gave any names. If that
information is available, I would apprciate getting it, or at least a
website I could go to.

Werner Zimmt Tucson, AZ <wsz@Ag.arizona.edu>


SITE CITE - Website About Jewish Cemeteries #germany

NaorMichael@...
 

Dear Siggers,

In the last edition of the Juedische Allgemeine Wochenzeitung (Jewish
General Weekly) I have found a short information about quite an interesting
website by Thomas Ridder, dealing with Jewish cemeteries (history, symbols,
gravestones etc.) especially in Germany. I thought it might be useful for
those of you who read German.

http://pomoerium.com/archiv/varia/ridder1.htm

Best regards,

Michael Naor Duesseldorf, Germany


German SIG #Germany SITE CITE - Website About Jewish Cemeteries #germany

NaorMichael@...
 

Dear Siggers,

In the last edition of the Juedische Allgemeine Wochenzeitung (Jewish
General Weekly) I have found a short information about quite an interesting
website by Thomas Ridder, dealing with Jewish cemeteries (history, symbols,
gravestones etc.) especially in Germany. I thought it might be useful for
those of you who read German.

http://pomoerium.com/archiv/varia/ridder1.htm

Best regards,

Michael Naor Duesseldorf, Germany


Re: INDUCH/YENDICK #belarus

Schelly Dardashti <dardasht@...>
 

Names, of course, can be translated. It is very easy to rely on a direct
translation, and possibly a direct translation is correct in a majority of
cases.
Sometimes, however, a family name origin handed down through the generations
tells a much different story, as in this particular family.

When I interviewed Oleg, I asked him about the name and whether it came >from
"turkey" as we had assumed. He laughed, pointed to his denim jacket, and
recounted the story handed down "forever" in his mother's family through the
generations that the family had been in the indigo dye business and had
businesses in Amsterdam (he was definite about this city) and elsewhere in
Europe (he did not recall which other cities).
How and why they had wound up in Mogilev and Chaussy, he did not know.
I asked if anyone had mentioned if perhaps the family were perhaps Sephardic
in origin, but he said not that he remembered. He insisted that the
generations were adamant about the indigo dye business, and thus the name
Induch for Indigo, which became Yendick only on arrival in America.
He insisted they were not turkeys!

By the way, Beider, in Jewish Names of the Russian Empire, lists INDEKH
(indigo), found in Cherikov and Berdichev, with variations Indikh, Indokh,
Indykh, Gindykh and Gindukh. INDIK he lists as turkey, while INDYK he lists
as turkey or as coming >from the village of Indyki (Starokonst d.).

Schelly Talalay Dardashti
Tel Aviv
President, JFRA Israel
schelly@genealogy.org.il
schelly@allrelative.net
MODERATOR NOTE: This thread is now closed. Please continue privately!

----- Original Message -----
From: "Leonid Zeliger" <leonidze@gmail.com>


Just one remark about the name Indik/Yendik/Induch. If the name is
from east European area its meaning should be rather "turkey" which is
"indiuk" in Russian, "indek or indik" in Yiddish.


Belarus SIG #Belarus Re: INDUCH/YENDICK #belarus

Schelly Dardashti <dardasht@...>
 

Names, of course, can be translated. It is very easy to rely on a direct
translation, and possibly a direct translation is correct in a majority of
cases.
Sometimes, however, a family name origin handed down through the generations
tells a much different story, as in this particular family.

When I interviewed Oleg, I asked him about the name and whether it came >from
"turkey" as we had assumed. He laughed, pointed to his denim jacket, and
recounted the story handed down "forever" in his mother's family through the
generations that the family had been in the indigo dye business and had
businesses in Amsterdam (he was definite about this city) and elsewhere in
Europe (he did not recall which other cities).
How and why they had wound up in Mogilev and Chaussy, he did not know.
I asked if anyone had mentioned if perhaps the family were perhaps Sephardic
in origin, but he said not that he remembered. He insisted that the
generations were adamant about the indigo dye business, and thus the name
Induch for Indigo, which became Yendick only on arrival in America.
He insisted they were not turkeys!

By the way, Beider, in Jewish Names of the Russian Empire, lists INDEKH
(indigo), found in Cherikov and Berdichev, with variations Indikh, Indokh,
Indykh, Gindykh and Gindukh. INDIK he lists as turkey, while INDYK he lists
as turkey or as coming >from the village of Indyki (Starokonst d.).

Schelly Talalay Dardashti
Tel Aviv
President, JFRA Israel
schelly@genealogy.org.il
schelly@allrelative.net
MODERATOR NOTE: This thread is now closed. Please continue privately!

----- Original Message -----
From: "Leonid Zeliger" <leonidze@gmail.com>


Just one remark about the name Indik/Yendik/Induch. If the name is
from east European area its meaning should be rather "turkey" which is
"indiuk" in Russian, "indek or indik" in Yiddish.


Restrictions on Jewish Marriage #germany

TamarDC <t.duke.cohan@...>
 

I am sorry that I missed the beginning of this fascinating
thread, but I hope I may make a comment anyway.

One of the most important results of these marriage
restrictions, which were quite severe, during the early to
mid-19th century at least, was massive immigration of young
Jewish people, most to the US. Many many of my relatives left
their homes during this period and immigrated to the southern
United States because they wanted to get married.

Permission to marry was so precious that in one case in my
family, legend has it that a relative was given a widow's
"right to marry" (I believe it's called a Matrikel) in return
for taking care of her financially for the rest of her life!

Tamar Duke-Cohan (Newton, MA)

MOD NOTE (sigh) Let's not get into arguments about this. Many books and web-sites
can provide expert information about "Matrikel" - defined, marriage restrictions
in various places and times, etc. Tamar's annecdote about an arranged marriage
within a family but accross generations should be familiar to some.

As usual, complete citations of books that contain expert information are
most welcome.


German SIG #Germany Restrictions on Jewish Marriage #germany

TamarDC <t.duke.cohan@...>
 

I am sorry that I missed the beginning of this fascinating
thread, but I hope I may make a comment anyway.

One of the most important results of these marriage
restrictions, which were quite severe, during the early to
mid-19th century at least, was massive immigration of young
Jewish people, most to the US. Many many of my relatives left
their homes during this period and immigrated to the southern
United States because they wanted to get married.

Permission to marry was so precious that in one case in my
family, legend has it that a relative was given a widow's
"right to marry" (I believe it's called a Matrikel) in return
for taking care of her financially for the rest of her life!

Tamar Duke-Cohan (Newton, MA)

MOD NOTE (sigh) Let's not get into arguments about this. Many books and web-sites
can provide expert information about "Matrikel" - defined, marriage restrictions
in various places and times, etc. Tamar's annecdote about an arranged marriage
within a family but accross generations should be familiar to some.

As usual, complete citations of books that contain expert information are
most welcome.


Wallock/Bakalar in and from Odessa #ukraine

Kirsten Votaw
 

I just found out my great-great-grandparents came from
Odessa, around 1893, and thereafter lived in Upstate
NY (Cohoes, Albany County and Tupper Lake, Franklin
County).

My gg-grandfather, Joseph Mordechai, had the surname
of Wallock, but it could have been Wallach (or any
other variation) before the move. His father's name
was Yitzchak (Isaac, I believe) according to his
tombstone.

My gg-grandmother, Anna or Hannah, had the surname of
Bakalar, though it was spelled Bacalar on their
naturalization record. Her father's name was Shlomo
(Solomon) Bakalar, per her tombstone.

I believe Joseph had at least two siblings (or perhaps
cousins) named Abram and Edward, who also moved to
Albany County. Abram (or Abraham) was a rabbi.

If anyone has any info on either family or relatives
with those surnames living in Odessa, I would greatly
appreciate receiving it. Also, if there are any online
links or sources in Odessa or elsewhere that would be
useful in my research I would appreciate knowing
those. This post is my first attempt to do research in
Odessa and I'm sure there's a lot out there to try.

Thanks so much,

Kirsten Votaw
Morgan Hill, California, USA


Ukraine SIG #Ukraine Wallock/Bakalar in and from Odessa #ukraine

Kirsten Votaw
 

I just found out my great-great-grandparents came from
Odessa, around 1893, and thereafter lived in Upstate
NY (Cohoes, Albany County and Tupper Lake, Franklin
County).

My gg-grandfather, Joseph Mordechai, had the surname
of Wallock, but it could have been Wallach (or any
other variation) before the move. His father's name
was Yitzchak (Isaac, I believe) according to his
tombstone.

My gg-grandmother, Anna or Hannah, had the surname of
Bakalar, though it was spelled Bacalar on their
naturalization record. Her father's name was Shlomo
(Solomon) Bakalar, per her tombstone.

I believe Joseph had at least two siblings (or perhaps
cousins) named Abram and Edward, who also moved to
Albany County. Abram (or Abraham) was a rabbi.

If anyone has any info on either family or relatives
with those surnames living in Odessa, I would greatly
appreciate receiving it. Also, if there are any online
links or sources in Odessa or elsewhere that would be
useful in my research I would appreciate knowing
those. This post is my first attempt to do research in
Odessa and I'm sure there's a lot out there to try.

Thanks so much,

Kirsten Votaw
Morgan Hill, California, USA


Davidsohn family #ukraine

orin
 

Hello
I am researching my cousins ROZA (ROZI) and NUTZI DAVIDSOHN >from KISHINEV.
Their parents MORITZ and BETTY DAVIDSOHN.
They was born in BUCHARES, Romania, after their father died they moved with
their mother to KISHINEV.
They should be 60 - 70 years old, and maybe their surname is different now.

Thank you

Frida Oringer
Hertzeliya, Israel
orin@bezeqint.net


Ukraine SIG #Ukraine Davidsohn family #ukraine

orin
 

Hello
I am researching my cousins ROZA (ROZI) and NUTZI DAVIDSOHN >from KISHINEV.
Their parents MORITZ and BETTY DAVIDSOHN.
They was born in BUCHARES, Romania, after their father died they moved with
their mother to KISHINEV.
They should be 60 - 70 years old, and maybe their surname is different now.

Thank you

Frida Oringer
Hertzeliya, Israel
orin@bezeqint.net


Re: initials on cutlery - Why this is a "moderated" discussion #germany

Christopher Massur <cmassur@...>
 

I do not always agree with your policy in cutting a discussion short on the
list. Genealogy not only consists of collecting birth, marriage and death
dates. The information on our ancestors consists of much more. Many people
interested in genealogy start out collecting these important dates, but keep
forgetting to take a broader look at the time and history in general which
will give a more complete picture and adding body to the dates sec which will
round up the human beings hiding behind the dates. **** Moderator reply below

Therefore, I would like to answer the question about the initials on the
silver: a) silver marks, type of lettering and style of the silver can
give a clue as to manufacturing date

b) particular jewish doweries could include silver and if there was a
prenuptial agreement other than the ketuboth (at a notary) these items the
bride brought into the marriage were sometimes listed, they could have been
in the family before

c) European custom would have been (not particular jewish custom), that >from
an early age, the girl received >from family members silver cutlery, every
holiday or birthday some pieces - incising it with the initials would then
have taken place around the time of the marriage (with the married name)
Thank you

Christopher Massur in Curaçao <cmassur@hotmail.com>

**** MODERATOR NOTE: I'm one of many GerSIG members who appreciate Mr. Massur
who often sends very helpful messages to our list. Please keep it up!

** This message **, however, is not one of your best. I am not rejecting it
so that it can serve as an example of why GerSIG (and other SIG moderators)
limit the discussions in our lists as we do.

1. Your message fails to answer the question asked. Maybe that's why you
didn't quote the original question. Both would be grounds for rejecting this.

2. Your message does not address German Jewish Genealogy - forget about names,
dates and places. There's nothing here that is specific to German Jewish
customs or tradition. You say yourself that the customs you mention are
not particularly Jewish customs. Thus there is absolutely no reason to
discuss them in a list devoted to German Jewish Genealogy and family history.

3. To Mr. Massur and all GerSIG members - I explain again why the MODERATOR
designates certain messages on this list for *** off-list replies only ***.

We encourage you to learn about all aspects of the lives of our Jewish
ancestors in Germany and elsewhere. Knowing about the history, geography,
religious customs, household furnishings, clothing, foods, favorite period
literature---- all of this and more helps us create and pass on a full-color,
4 dimensional views of our forefathers and mothers and their families.

As a way of encouraging this learning, we allow members to ask questions
about such peripheral topics in this forum. Other members are likely to have
learned about all kinds of things in the course of their reading and research.
We're pleased to make it possible for members to ask other members questions
that aren't directly aimed at methods of collecting names, dates and places.

*** Asking *** is usually OK.

***** It is the answers that cause problems. *****

For example: Recently someone asked for the meaning of certain marks he found
on gravestones in a particular Jewish Cemetery. (skull and crossed bones)

A number of possible interpretations of the phenomenon were sent to us by list
members including Mr. Massur. After several of these ** possible ** answers
were accepted and sent to the list the Moderator terminated the discussion.

Reasons: 1. There seemed to be no accepted interpretation of the markings.
2. The "answers" (many of which did not answer the question at all) contained
comments that led the discussion further and further away >from our focus.
3. Some of the messages contained negative comments about other GerSIG members
and / or the opinions expressed by those members.

Our rules strictly prohibit argumentative and demeaning
comments in posted messages.
Members who can not refrain >from submitting such comments
will lose the right to send anything to this list.

Our discussions of genealogy research sources and methods almost never provoke
this kind of response.

On the other hand, certain "hot button" subjects such as:
....Biblical sources of modern Jewish names;
....origins and "correct" observance of Jewish traditions or regional customs;
....the exactly correct word to describe something such as "Sephardic" vs.
"Portuguese" to describe this or that group of Jews;

Such matters tend to elicit strong opinions and sometimes anger
when those opinions are not accepted by others.

Because these and other subjects are not of general interest and not directly
helpful to most of our members in tracing their family histories, the MODERATOR
reserves the right to reject some questions outright.

Whenever possible, the MODERATOR will allow the question to be posted to the list
with the proviso that most replies will *** not *** be posted to the list and
should be sent by private E-mail. (If a cc of any private reply is sent to the
list we will consider it for posting if it seems likely to be of general interest
and seems unlikely to cause problems.)

Your MODERATOR's opinions expressed here have been reached following 6 years of
daily experience handling such matters. They are not negotiable. There is no
reason to reply to my comments. Your reply will not accomplish anything. But....

your reading and consideration of my comments may help all our members understand
why the discussions in this Forum are "Moderated" (look up the word - it may help)

John Paul Lowens, Suburban NYC GerSIG Moderator


German SIG #Germany re: initials on cutlery - Why this is a "moderated" discussion #germany

Christopher Massur <cmassur@...>
 

I do not always agree with your policy in cutting a discussion short on the
list. Genealogy not only consists of collecting birth, marriage and death
dates. The information on our ancestors consists of much more. Many people
interested in genealogy start out collecting these important dates, but keep
forgetting to take a broader look at the time and history in general which
will give a more complete picture and adding body to the dates sec which will
round up the human beings hiding behind the dates. **** Moderator reply below

Therefore, I would like to answer the question about the initials on the
silver: a) silver marks, type of lettering and style of the silver can
give a clue as to manufacturing date

b) particular jewish doweries could include silver and if there was a
prenuptial agreement other than the ketuboth (at a notary) these items the
bride brought into the marriage were sometimes listed, they could have been
in the family before

c) European custom would have been (not particular jewish custom), that >from
an early age, the girl received >from family members silver cutlery, every
holiday or birthday some pieces - incising it with the initials would then
have taken place around the time of the marriage (with the married name)
Thank you

Christopher Massur in Curaçao <cmassur@hotmail.com>

**** MODERATOR NOTE: I'm one of many GerSIG members who appreciate Mr. Massur
who often sends very helpful messages to our list. Please keep it up!

** This message **, however, is not one of your best. I am not rejecting it
so that it can serve as an example of why GerSIG (and other SIG moderators)
limit the discussions in our lists as we do.

1. Your message fails to answer the question asked. Maybe that's why you
didn't quote the original question. Both would be grounds for rejecting this.

2. Your message does not address German Jewish Genealogy - forget about names,
dates and places. There's nothing here that is specific to German Jewish
customs or tradition. You say yourself that the customs you mention are
not particularly Jewish customs. Thus there is absolutely no reason to
discuss them in a list devoted to German Jewish Genealogy and family history.

3. To Mr. Massur and all GerSIG members - I explain again why the MODERATOR
designates certain messages on this list for *** off-list replies only ***.

We encourage you to learn about all aspects of the lives of our Jewish
ancestors in Germany and elsewhere. Knowing about the history, geography,
religious customs, household furnishings, clothing, foods, favorite period
literature---- all of this and more helps us create and pass on a full-color,
4 dimensional views of our forefathers and mothers and their families.

As a way of encouraging this learning, we allow members to ask questions
about such peripheral topics in this forum. Other members are likely to have
learned about all kinds of things in the course of their reading and research.
We're pleased to make it possible for members to ask other members questions
that aren't directly aimed at methods of collecting names, dates and places.

*** Asking *** is usually OK.

***** It is the answers that cause problems. *****

For example: Recently someone asked for the meaning of certain marks he found
on gravestones in a particular Jewish Cemetery. (skull and crossed bones)

A number of possible interpretations of the phenomenon were sent to us by list
members including Mr. Massur. After several of these ** possible ** answers
were accepted and sent to the list the Moderator terminated the discussion.

Reasons: 1. There seemed to be no accepted interpretation of the markings.
2. The "answers" (many of which did not answer the question at all) contained
comments that led the discussion further and further away >from our focus.
3. Some of the messages contained negative comments about other GerSIG members
and / or the opinions expressed by those members.

Our rules strictly prohibit argumentative and demeaning
comments in posted messages.
Members who can not refrain >from submitting such comments
will lose the right to send anything to this list.

Our discussions of genealogy research sources and methods almost never provoke
this kind of response.

On the other hand, certain "hot button" subjects such as:
....Biblical sources of modern Jewish names;
....origins and "correct" observance of Jewish traditions or regional customs;
....the exactly correct word to describe something such as "Sephardic" vs.
"Portuguese" to describe this or that group of Jews;

Such matters tend to elicit strong opinions and sometimes anger
when those opinions are not accepted by others.

Because these and other subjects are not of general interest and not directly
helpful to most of our members in tracing their family histories, the MODERATOR
reserves the right to reject some questions outright.

Whenever possible, the MODERATOR will allow the question to be posted to the list
with the proviso that most replies will *** not *** be posted to the list and
should be sent by private E-mail. (If a cc of any private reply is sent to the
list we will consider it for posting if it seems likely to be of general interest
and seems unlikely to cause problems.)

Your MODERATOR's opinions expressed here have been reached following 6 years of
daily experience handling such matters. They are not negotiable. There is no
reason to reply to my comments. Your reply will not accomplish anything. But....

your reading and consideration of my comments may help all our members understand
why the discussions in this Forum are "Moderated" (look up the word - it may help)

John Paul Lowens, Suburban NYC GerSIG Moderator


Chicago's Polish Dziennik archives #general

Barbara Mannlein <bsmannlein@...>
 

Anybody in Chicago with acess to the Polish Dziennik Chicagoski archives?

I have just learned that notices of the deaths of a family member and his
2nd wife appeared in that paper in September 1967 and August of 1957
respectively. I would like the full text of the death notices.

I am hoping that they lead me to other family members. The husband, who came
to America by himself to earn enough to bring over other family members,
divorced his first wife when she delivered a child a year after he left for
the US! He later married a Polish Catholic in Chicago. I assume that he
converted in order to marry her. How do I find out where and when he
converted?

Two granddaughters who I have finally traced, after years and years of
research, refuse to give me any information or even tell me where these
grandparents are interred.

The two in question are:

Adler, Julia DOD 8/2/1957
maiden name: Koza -- reported 3 Aug 1957

Adler, Oscar DOD 9/27/1967
wife's maiden name: Koza, Julia -- reported 28 Sep 1967

Barbara S. Mannlein
Tucson, AZ


JewishGen Discussion Group #JewishGen Chicago's Polish Dziennik archives #general

Barbara Mannlein <bsmannlein@...>
 

Anybody in Chicago with acess to the Polish Dziennik Chicagoski archives?

I have just learned that notices of the deaths of a family member and his
2nd wife appeared in that paper in September 1967 and August of 1957
respectively. I would like the full text of the death notices.

I am hoping that they lead me to other family members. The husband, who came
to America by himself to earn enough to bring over other family members,
divorced his first wife when she delivered a child a year after he left for
the US! He later married a Polish Catholic in Chicago. I assume that he
converted in order to marry her. How do I find out where and when he
converted?

Two granddaughters who I have finally traced, after years and years of
research, refuse to give me any information or even tell me where these
grandparents are interred.

The two in question are:

Adler, Julia DOD 8/2/1957
maiden name: Koza -- reported 3 Aug 1957

Adler, Oscar DOD 9/27/1967
wife's maiden name: Koza, Julia -- reported 28 Sep 1967

Barbara S. Mannlein
Tucson, AZ


Kadee Association #general

Jerome Seligsohn <jselig1315@...>
 

In order to organize the papers of a landsmanshaft
with the name of the Kadee Association, I would
appreciate hearing >from any descendants of this
organization. Using shtetl seeker I have located sound
alikes in Poland, Lithuania, Belarus, and the Ukraine.
I have eliminated counties which are not usually found
amongst landsmanshaften [Estonia, Albania, Bulgaria}.
I thank you for your cooperation.

Jerry Seligsohn
Yivo Archives Volunteer


JewishGen Discussion Group #JewishGen Kadee Association #general

Jerome Seligsohn <jselig1315@...>
 

In order to organize the papers of a landsmanshaft
with the name of the Kadee Association, I would
appreciate hearing >from any descendants of this
organization. Using shtetl seeker I have located sound
alikes in Poland, Lithuania, Belarus, and the Ukraine.
I have eliminated counties which are not usually found
amongst landsmanshaften [Estonia, Albania, Bulgaria}.
I thank you for your cooperation.

Jerry Seligsohn
Yivo Archives Volunteer