Date   

Re: Minsk phone book in early 1900s #belarus

David M. Fox <davefox73@...>
 

While I am not personally aware of Minsk phone books >from the 1900 to 1910
period, there are Homeowner Lists and resident lists. The 1889 and 1911
Minsk City Homeowner lists have been obtained by the Belarus SIG and have
been translated
<http://www.jewishgen.org/databases/Belarus/MinskHomeowners.htm>. To search
these list as well as many other lists and databases, please be sure to
search the All Belarus Database
<http://www.jewishgen.org/databases/belarus/> and the Belarus Surnames Index
<http://www.jewishgen.org/belarus/static_index.htm>.

By the way, Mordukh MARGOLIN lived at 5 Nizhny Market in 1889. By 1911
Mordukh, the son of Abram, appears to have owned three properties in Minsk.
The addresses are in the database.

For those of you who are new to genealogy reseach or to the SIG, please be
sure to explore the many resources on the SIG website.

Happy hunting,

Dave
--
David Fox
Mail to: davefox73@earthlink.net
Belarus SIG Coordinator
Arnold, MD USA
http://www.jewishgen.org/belarus

On 12/24/03 Amoz Chernoff wrote:
Would any one know whether there were phone books published for Minsk area in
the 1900 to 1910 period? I am looking for the names Mordechai Margolin and
Rachel Gelbin. Your help would be appreciated.


Belarus SIG #Belarus Re: Minsk phone book in early 1900s #belarus

David M. Fox <davefox73@...>
 

While I am not personally aware of Minsk phone books >from the 1900 to 1910
period, there are Homeowner Lists and resident lists. The 1889 and 1911
Minsk City Homeowner lists have been obtained by the Belarus SIG and have
been translated
<http://www.jewishgen.org/databases/Belarus/MinskHomeowners.htm>. To search
these list as well as many other lists and databases, please be sure to
search the All Belarus Database
<http://www.jewishgen.org/databases/belarus/> and the Belarus Surnames Index
<http://www.jewishgen.org/belarus/static_index.htm>.

By the way, Mordukh MARGOLIN lived at 5 Nizhny Market in 1889. By 1911
Mordukh, the son of Abram, appears to have owned three properties in Minsk.
The addresses are in the database.

For those of you who are new to genealogy reseach or to the SIG, please be
sure to explore the many resources on the SIG website.

Happy hunting,

Dave
--
David Fox
Mail to: davefox73@earthlink.net
Belarus SIG Coordinator
Arnold, MD USA
http://www.jewishgen.org/belarus

On 12/24/03 Amoz Chernoff wrote:
Would any one know whether there were phone books published for Minsk area in
the 1900 to 1910 period? I am looking for the names Mordechai Margolin and
Rachel Gelbin. Your help would be appreciated.


Re: JRI date listings #poland

debw@...
 

re- JRI date listings. Many people did not register their
marriges with the local civil authorities, so it appears as if
their childrne were born illegitimate. They had their religious
cermonies and often only registered their civl years later when
it became necessary for some reason or other, thus the apparent
peculiarity.

Also, it may not have been their first child Not all chilren were
registered, some times boys were not to avoid military service.

As for naming after a living relative, that sounds odd.

MODERATOR'S NOTE: Just a reminder that all messages should be
signed with first and last name. The subject of religious and
civil marriages, especially in AGAD records for Galician towns,
has been discussed before on this list. To find previous messages
on the subject go to:
http://data.jewishgen.org/wconnect/wc.dll?jg~jgsys~sigspop and
search the JRI-Poland message archive for appropriate keywords.


JRI Poland #Poland RE: JRI date listings #poland

debw@...
 

re- JRI date listings. Many people did not register their
marriges with the local civil authorities, so it appears as if
their childrne were born illegitimate. They had their religious
cermonies and often only registered their civl years later when
it became necessary for some reason or other, thus the apparent
peculiarity.

Also, it may not have been their first child Not all chilren were
registered, some times boys were not to avoid military service.

As for naming after a living relative, that sounds odd.

MODERATOR'S NOTE: Just a reminder that all messages should be
signed with first and last name. The subject of religious and
civil marriages, especially in AGAD records for Galician towns,
has been discussed before on this list. To find previous messages
on the subject go to:
http://data.jewishgen.org/wconnect/wc.dll?jg~jgsys~sigspop and
search the JRI-Poland message archive for appropriate keywords.


Re: Confusion about JRI date listings #poland

Sally M. Bruckheimer <sallybru@...>
 

Not everything was registered. Not all marriages were done civilly. People
married religiously and all was good. Babies were born at home and nobody
bothered to tell the Czar. Babies who were born sometimes were registered
as being someone else's kid (to make them a first son and exempt >from the
draft, perhaps). The Jews just ignored civil regulations-until some
crackdown when you would find a whole family of children's births registered
one day.

A relative of mine in Rajgrod had 6 kids births registered (and how many
more who weren't registered?). He had 3 different wives over those years;
but there were no death records for the wives, and finally I found 1
marriage-hooray-giving his parents names. His father was my 3d gr
grandfather and his mother was Mickli-a common name in the family.

So don't expect to find every birth and marriage in the civil records.

Sally Bruckheimer
Harrison, NY


JRI Poland #Poland Re: Confusion about JRI date listings #poland

Sally M. Bruckheimer <sallybru@...>
 

Not everything was registered. Not all marriages were done civilly. People
married religiously and all was good. Babies were born at home and nobody
bothered to tell the Czar. Babies who were born sometimes were registered
as being someone else's kid (to make them a first son and exempt >from the
draft, perhaps). The Jews just ignored civil regulations-until some
crackdown when you would find a whole family of children's births registered
one day.

A relative of mine in Rajgrod had 6 kids births registered (and how many
more who weren't registered?). He had 3 different wives over those years;
but there were no death records for the wives, and finally I found 1
marriage-hooray-giving his parents names. His father was my 3d gr
grandfather and his mother was Mickli-a common name in the family.

So don't expect to find every birth and marriage in the civil records.

Sally Bruckheimer
Harrison, NY


Records (civil and/or synagogue) in Hull 1900-1916 #unitedkingdom

Al Levinson <arl@...>
 

My ggparents Modecai Hersh and Raizel(?) Friedman arrived in Hull around
1903. Their adult children married in Hull and in turn migrated to the
United States. I would appreciate learning what might be available in Hull
records on my family.

Al Levinson
<arl@spiritone.com>
Portland, OR.


JCR-UK SIG #UnitedKingdom Records (civil and/or synagogue) in Hull 1900-1916 #unitedkingdom

Al Levinson <arl@...>
 

My ggparents Modecai Hersh and Raizel(?) Friedman arrived in Hull around
1903. Their adult children married in Hull and in turn migrated to the
United States. I would appreciate learning what might be available in Hull
records on my family.

Al Levinson
<arl@spiritone.com>
Portland, OR.


Litvaks: New Info. #belarus

Jack R. Braverman <jbraverman1@...>
 

There were a number of fascinating and insightful answers to my initial
post concerning the meaning of the proud claim by Grodno citizens of the
1850-1900 period that they were Litvaks. My use of the word "Litvak"
implied some sort of notional identity of which I was ignorant. Alas, I
overlooked that the word can also act as a surname. This usage was
indicated in a message sent to me personally, and reprinted below. Commen=
ts
also revealed that the word connoted a claim of social status.

Several kind list contributors replied to me personally, and they
subsequently gave me permission to post the notes anonymously. These are
well worth a read. I've repeated a few others that were previously sent t=
o
the entire list, along with the author's names, on the principle of keepi=
ng
likes with likes. Reading them all together at a single sitting reveals
much about our ancestors. (Since the contributors previously posted their=

comments publically, I assume they will have no objection to having them
reposted.) =


Message 1, sent to me as a personal note and posted with the permission o=
f
an anonymously Belarus list contributor.

~
The main reason why certain people called themselves Litvaks, was
because they spoke a dialect of Yiddish that was spoken in Lithuania, as
opposed to softer dialects spoken in Poland, Russia, Ukraine, etc. I am
not a linguist, but apparently, there was quite a difference between
Yiddish dialects within the Russian Empire.

The pronunciation was not the only thing that made Litvaks proud of
being Litvaks. Vilno (Wilno), currently Vilnius, was a major cultural
center with well known Rabbis. Other cities like Kovno (Kaunas) were
also significant urban centers. When Litvaks moved to other parts, they
were still proud of who they were because many Ukrainian Jews lived in
much smaller shtetls and might not have had the same ambience about
them. It would be similar to a native New Yorker proudly pointing out
the fact, even though he or she might live in Kansas.

As far as Lithuanian history or national identity, I am afraid that my
views would offend someone who is politically correct. Essentially,
Lithuania had a chance to lead the re-birth of Russia as independent and
powerful political entity, as it, not Moscow or Tver or Novgorod, was
the leader of the Russian people into 14th century, at least based on
the territories of the Kievan Rus it controlled. But at the end of 14th
century, Jagello made a major mistake by marrying into Polish royal
family and assuming the throne of Poland. This created a union of
Poland and Lithuania, which eventually lead to total absorption of
Lithuania into Poland, and later (in 18th century) into Russian Empire.

As close as Poland and Russia were ethnically and politically, they were
the total opposites with regards to religion. Russia would never assume
or accept Catholicism, and Poland was the eastern bulwark of the Popes.

By 19th century, there was very little "Lithuanian" left. Even the
region has a different name. Therefore, the name "Litvaks" has very
little to do with the Lithuania proper, or Lithuanians. It was just a
reference, much like all Jews >from former Soviet Union are lumped
together (incorrectly) as Russians or Russian Jews, ignoring the fact
that "Russian Jews" included Ashkenazis >from Ukraine and the Baltic
states, Mountain Jews, Karaimes >from Crimea, Bukhara Jews >from Central
Asia and various Sephardic Jewish communities...

* * * * * =


Message 2, sent to me as a personal message and posted with permission of=

the anonymous Belist contributor.

This is the message that reminded me that the word "Litvak" may also be
used as a suname, as is implied here.

~ =

My father told me his family came >from Riga. This has set back my succes=
s
at =

family history tracing for years. After years of "digging" up cousins
whose =

existence I had never been aware of, and locating American records of all=
=

kinds, it appears that my father's family came >from the Bialystok-Grodno
axis. =

The Latvian claim may have related to the train station or port >from whic=
h
they =

departed for the New World, where they continued to fabricate, obfuscate
and =

improve their self-image.

These people were interesting, bright and successful. >from the pictures,=
=

they also appear to have been attractive. However, I have come to the
conclusion =

that they were all born before their time. They should have been PR
agents. =

They never missed an opportunity to subvert the truth in the interest of =
a =

better image. The only reason I am so open about all this is that Mother=

was =

the very square daughter of German Jewish immigrants. They were absolute=
ly

reliable; totally boring; and totally predictable. So half a pedigree is=

better =

than none, I always say. The "Litvaks" are well documented on the lower
east =

side and in Brooklyn, but only God knows how they got here- no ship arriv=
al

data for a single one of them, and there were at least a dozen counting
in-laws =

and collaterals- or where they came from. I have come to doubt even the
data on =

the social security applications and the naturalization papers. These
people =

were experts. No one is ever going to find them. They died with their =

secret locked in their collective breasts. =


Lotsa luck. Maybe your Litvaks are straighter than mine.


* * * * * =


Message 3, previously posted on the Belarus list by conributor Larry Gaum=

and reposted here to consolidate Litvak comments.

~
In the 13th century all Belarusian lands were united within the Grand Duc=
hy
of Lithuania, which was politically and culturally dominated by
Belarusians.
For centuries, Belarusian was the official language of the Grand Duchy. =

The
Duchy was known as LITVA, and today Jews >from this Lithuanian
Princedom (Grodno included) are referred to as Litvaks. For that matter,=

all
Belarusians are Litvaks.

Incidentally, Jews >from the region of Galicia (at one time part of Poland=

and
Ukraine), are called Galicianers.

* * * * * =


Message 4, dovetails nicely with Message 3, above. It was originally post=
ed
by list member Marlene Bishow.

~
On the subject of Litvaks and Galitzieners:

In my family the story is told that when my mother informed her parents
(father born in Novyy Swerzhen') that she was marrying my father (1943),
they
(mother American born) were dismayed at a Litvak female marrying a
Galitziener. It was considered marrying down in class - intelligence, etc=
.
In a short time, my father became my grandmother's favorite son-in-law. S=
he
passed away in twenty-five years ago, but my parents will be married 60
years next October.

Another comment - My parents are both American born and educated. In the
past ten years they have begun to speak Yiddish to each other once in a
while. I asked them how come they hardly ever did that when I was a kid,
and
they responded that they did not understand each other's dialects of
Yiddish
well enough to conduct a conversation.

So, is this differentiation not only a geographic distinction, but a soci=
al
and class distinction? I have often wondered.

* * * * * =


Message 5, contributed by list member Les Evenchick.

~
Of course they were Litvaks.

My father was born in Koidanov near Minsk and
always referred to himself as a Litvak.

It was common when I was young to hear the adults
talk of Litvaks and Galizaners(Jews >from Galicia)

Apparently their was a major cultural difference
between Jews >from the 2 different regions but I
don't remember what they were.

Keep in mind that our Litvak ancestors lived
under Lithuanian rule much longer and much freer
than under Polish and Russian rule.

Perhaps some historians among us can give a more
detailed history.

* * * * * =


One final observation. My 1938 _Columbia Encyclopedia, (which I treasure
because it contains information long-since deleted >from contemporary
reference books) fails to mention the word "Litvak." Gathering disparate
and fragmentary memories in this manner may well be a valuable genealogic=
al
function.

Regards and Happy New Year,

Jack Braverman
[MODERATOR NOTE: I think it is time to "close" this thread.]


Belarus SIG #Belarus Litvaks: New Info. #belarus

Jack R. Braverman <jbraverman1@...>
 

There were a number of fascinating and insightful answers to my initial
post concerning the meaning of the proud claim by Grodno citizens of the
1850-1900 period that they were Litvaks. My use of the word "Litvak"
implied some sort of notional identity of which I was ignorant. Alas, I
overlooked that the word can also act as a surname. This usage was
indicated in a message sent to me personally, and reprinted below. Commen=
ts
also revealed that the word connoted a claim of social status.

Several kind list contributors replied to me personally, and they
subsequently gave me permission to post the notes anonymously. These are
well worth a read. I've repeated a few others that were previously sent t=
o
the entire list, along with the author's names, on the principle of keepi=
ng
likes with likes. Reading them all together at a single sitting reveals
much about our ancestors. (Since the contributors previously posted their=

comments publically, I assume they will have no objection to having them
reposted.) =


Message 1, sent to me as a personal note and posted with the permission o=
f
an anonymously Belarus list contributor.

~
The main reason why certain people called themselves Litvaks, was
because they spoke a dialect of Yiddish that was spoken in Lithuania, as
opposed to softer dialects spoken in Poland, Russia, Ukraine, etc. I am
not a linguist, but apparently, there was quite a difference between
Yiddish dialects within the Russian Empire.

The pronunciation was not the only thing that made Litvaks proud of
being Litvaks. Vilno (Wilno), currently Vilnius, was a major cultural
center with well known Rabbis. Other cities like Kovno (Kaunas) were
also significant urban centers. When Litvaks moved to other parts, they
were still proud of who they were because many Ukrainian Jews lived in
much smaller shtetls and might not have had the same ambience about
them. It would be similar to a native New Yorker proudly pointing out
the fact, even though he or she might live in Kansas.

As far as Lithuanian history or national identity, I am afraid that my
views would offend someone who is politically correct. Essentially,
Lithuania had a chance to lead the re-birth of Russia as independent and
powerful political entity, as it, not Moscow or Tver or Novgorod, was
the leader of the Russian people into 14th century, at least based on
the territories of the Kievan Rus it controlled. But at the end of 14th
century, Jagello made a major mistake by marrying into Polish royal
family and assuming the throne of Poland. This created a union of
Poland and Lithuania, which eventually lead to total absorption of
Lithuania into Poland, and later (in 18th century) into Russian Empire.

As close as Poland and Russia were ethnically and politically, they were
the total opposites with regards to religion. Russia would never assume
or accept Catholicism, and Poland was the eastern bulwark of the Popes.

By 19th century, there was very little "Lithuanian" left. Even the
region has a different name. Therefore, the name "Litvaks" has very
little to do with the Lithuania proper, or Lithuanians. It was just a
reference, much like all Jews >from former Soviet Union are lumped
together (incorrectly) as Russians or Russian Jews, ignoring the fact
that "Russian Jews" included Ashkenazis >from Ukraine and the Baltic
states, Mountain Jews, Karaimes >from Crimea, Bukhara Jews >from Central
Asia and various Sephardic Jewish communities...

* * * * * =


Message 2, sent to me as a personal message and posted with permission of=

the anonymous Belist contributor.

This is the message that reminded me that the word "Litvak" may also be
used as a suname, as is implied here.

~ =

My father told me his family came >from Riga. This has set back my succes=
s
at =

family history tracing for years. After years of "digging" up cousins
whose =

existence I had never been aware of, and locating American records of all=
=

kinds, it appears that my father's family came >from the Bialystok-Grodno
axis. =

The Latvian claim may have related to the train station or port >from whic=
h
they =

departed for the New World, where they continued to fabricate, obfuscate
and =

improve their self-image.

These people were interesting, bright and successful. >from the pictures,=
=

they also appear to have been attractive. However, I have come to the
conclusion =

that they were all born before their time. They should have been PR
agents. =

They never missed an opportunity to subvert the truth in the interest of =
a =

better image. The only reason I am so open about all this is that Mother=

was =

the very square daughter of German Jewish immigrants. They were absolute=
ly

reliable; totally boring; and totally predictable. So half a pedigree is=

better =

than none, I always say. The "Litvaks" are well documented on the lower
east =

side and in Brooklyn, but only God knows how they got here- no ship arriv=
al

data for a single one of them, and there were at least a dozen counting
in-laws =

and collaterals- or where they came from. I have come to doubt even the
data on =

the social security applications and the naturalization papers. These
people =

were experts. No one is ever going to find them. They died with their =

secret locked in their collective breasts. =


Lotsa luck. Maybe your Litvaks are straighter than mine.


* * * * * =


Message 3, previously posted on the Belarus list by conributor Larry Gaum=

and reposted here to consolidate Litvak comments.

~
In the 13th century all Belarusian lands were united within the Grand Duc=
hy
of Lithuania, which was politically and culturally dominated by
Belarusians.
For centuries, Belarusian was the official language of the Grand Duchy. =

The
Duchy was known as LITVA, and today Jews >from this Lithuanian
Princedom (Grodno included) are referred to as Litvaks. For that matter,=

all
Belarusians are Litvaks.

Incidentally, Jews >from the region of Galicia (at one time part of Poland=

and
Ukraine), are called Galicianers.

* * * * * =


Message 4, dovetails nicely with Message 3, above. It was originally post=
ed
by list member Marlene Bishow.

~
On the subject of Litvaks and Galitzieners:

In my family the story is told that when my mother informed her parents
(father born in Novyy Swerzhen') that she was marrying my father (1943),
they
(mother American born) were dismayed at a Litvak female marrying a
Galitziener. It was considered marrying down in class - intelligence, etc=
.
In a short time, my father became my grandmother's favorite son-in-law. S=
he
passed away in twenty-five years ago, but my parents will be married 60
years next October.

Another comment - My parents are both American born and educated. In the
past ten years they have begun to speak Yiddish to each other once in a
while. I asked them how come they hardly ever did that when I was a kid,
and
they responded that they did not understand each other's dialects of
Yiddish
well enough to conduct a conversation.

So, is this differentiation not only a geographic distinction, but a soci=
al
and class distinction? I have often wondered.

* * * * * =


Message 5, contributed by list member Les Evenchick.

~
Of course they were Litvaks.

My father was born in Koidanov near Minsk and
always referred to himself as a Litvak.

It was common when I was young to hear the adults
talk of Litvaks and Galizaners(Jews >from Galicia)

Apparently their was a major cultural difference
between Jews >from the 2 different regions but I
don't remember what they were.

Keep in mind that our Litvak ancestors lived
under Lithuanian rule much longer and much freer
than under Polish and Russian rule.

Perhaps some historians among us can give a more
detailed history.

* * * * * =


One final observation. My 1938 _Columbia Encyclopedia, (which I treasure
because it contains information long-since deleted >from contemporary
reference books) fails to mention the word "Litvak." Gathering disparate
and fragmentary memories in this manner may well be a valuable genealogic=
al
function.

Regards and Happy New Year,

Jack Braverman
[MODERATOR NOTE: I think it is time to "close" this thread.]


Re: More on Hungarian Magnate records #hungary

Robert Friedman <vze2sv8z@...>
 

On Wed, 17 Dec 2003 15:50:02 -0800, "henry wellisch"
<kelwel@accglobal.net> wrote:

I don't think that there actually exist separate Hungarian Magnate =
records. Perhaps the Esterhazy records are still in Eisenstadt; they =
would be of interest to people who are researching their ancestors >from =
the Burgenland. Other records >from noble Hungarian families have been =
transferred to the National Archives in Budapest, I think.

Historian William O. McCagg, Jr., relied heavily on records of the
Hungarian nobility when he wrote his 1972 book, "Jewish Nobles and
Geniuses in Modern Hungary" (East European Quarterly, Boulder;
Distributed by Columbia University Press, NY). The footnotes in
Chapter I and the Bibliographic Essay in Appendix B contain many
source citations. See, for example, Footnote 12 in Appendix B (page
238):

"Gyula Rubinek (ed.) A magyar korona orszagainak...gazdaczimtara
[Estate Directory of the Lands of the Hungarian Crown] (lst ed.;
Budapest: Pesti Konyvny, 1897; 2nd ed., 1911); and Magyarorszag
foldbirtokosai es foldberloi: Gazdacimtar [Hungary's Landlords and
Land Renters: Estate Directory] (Budapest: Statisztikai Hivatal, 1926,
1937)...."

Since inevitably someone will ask, "where can I find McCagg's book,"
here is a partial answer: It is available at more than 300 libraries
worldwide. To find one near you, go to
http://eir.library.utoronto.ca/jewishhistory/getItems.cfm?majorCatID=3D16
and search World Cat or any of the National Library Catalogs.

1. The title "A Magyar korona orsz=E1gainak mez=94ogazd=E1sagi
statisztikaja" (5v. 1897-1900) is available at=20
DC INTERNATIONAL LABOUR OFF
EU INTERNATIONAL LABOUR OFF
MO LINDA HALL LIBR vol: 1-5 1897-1900
CA UNIV OF CALIFORNIA, LOS ANGELES
IL UNIV OF CHICAGO
IL UNIV OF ILLINOIS=20

This may or may not be the same publication as "A magyar korona
orszagainak...gazdaczimtara" cited by McCagg.

2. Magyarorszag foldbirtokosai es foldberloi is available at=20
Johns Hopkins U.

Bob Friedman, NYC
inwood@pipeline.com


Hungary SIG #Hungary Re: More on Hungarian Magnate records #hungary

Robert Friedman <vze2sv8z@...>
 

On Wed, 17 Dec 2003 15:50:02 -0800, "henry wellisch"
<kelwel@accglobal.net> wrote:

I don't think that there actually exist separate Hungarian Magnate =
records. Perhaps the Esterhazy records are still in Eisenstadt; they =
would be of interest to people who are researching their ancestors >from =
the Burgenland. Other records >from noble Hungarian families have been =
transferred to the National Archives in Budapest, I think.

Historian William O. McCagg, Jr., relied heavily on records of the
Hungarian nobility when he wrote his 1972 book, "Jewish Nobles and
Geniuses in Modern Hungary" (East European Quarterly, Boulder;
Distributed by Columbia University Press, NY). The footnotes in
Chapter I and the Bibliographic Essay in Appendix B contain many
source citations. See, for example, Footnote 12 in Appendix B (page
238):

"Gyula Rubinek (ed.) A magyar korona orszagainak...gazdaczimtara
[Estate Directory of the Lands of the Hungarian Crown] (lst ed.;
Budapest: Pesti Konyvny, 1897; 2nd ed., 1911); and Magyarorszag
foldbirtokosai es foldberloi: Gazdacimtar [Hungary's Landlords and
Land Renters: Estate Directory] (Budapest: Statisztikai Hivatal, 1926,
1937)...."

Since inevitably someone will ask, "where can I find McCagg's book,"
here is a partial answer: It is available at more than 300 libraries
worldwide. To find one near you, go to
http://eir.library.utoronto.ca/jewishhistory/getItems.cfm?majorCatID=3D16
and search World Cat or any of the National Library Catalogs.

1. The title "A Magyar korona orsz=E1gainak mez=94ogazd=E1sagi
statisztikaja" (5v. 1897-1900) is available at=20
DC INTERNATIONAL LABOUR OFF
EU INTERNATIONAL LABOUR OFF
MO LINDA HALL LIBR vol: 1-5 1897-1900
CA UNIV OF CALIFORNIA, LOS ANGELES
IL UNIV OF CHICAGO
IL UNIV OF ILLINOIS=20

This may or may not be the same publication as "A magyar korona
orszagainak...gazdaczimtara" cited by McCagg.

2. Magyarorszag foldbirtokosai es foldberloi is available at=20
Johns Hopkins U.

Bob Friedman, NYC
inwood@pipeline.com


hebrew definition of "Pepi" and "Lena" #hungary

B Frederics <picturethisfilm@...>
 

My 2nd great-grandmother was known as "Pepi", but her given name at birth
was Josephine.

Bonnie Frederics
Tucson, AZ
picturethisfilm@email.com


Hungary SIG #Hungary hebrew definition of "Pepi" and "Lena" #hungary

B Frederics <picturethisfilm@...>
 

My 2nd great-grandmother was known as "Pepi", but her given name at birth
was Josephine.

Bonnie Frederics
Tucson, AZ
picturethisfilm@email.com


Re: "Counted Remnants" #hungary

Albert Benedict
 

Thank you moderator VK. I am sorry to be so neglectful to follow the
guidelines. I will follow up your suggestions to find the book With
best regards and Happy Holidays, Al Benedict

Albert Benedict wrote:

I have checked on line book stores for "Counted Remnants"--Register of
the Jewish Survivors in Budapest (Ed. in English by the Hungarian
section of the World Jewish Federation, 1946) and have not be able to
find this book. I would greatly appreciate learning where I may
purchase this book using the internet. Thank you, Al Benedict
(albertbe@hawaii.edu)

Parenthetically, I am researching my ancestors as follows:

Jonas: Miskolc and Budapest
Benedek and Rosenberg: Rabahidvegy, Budapest, Nagyszentmiklos
Stark and Weisz: Onod, Hungary
Mannheimer and Spitzer: Reichenau, Pecs, Budapest

Moderator VK: Contrary to H-SIG procedure you did not indicate where
you live. Based on your e-mail address, I assume that you are in
Hawaii and far >from Washington DC where you could find a copy of this
book at the US Holocaust Memorial Museum. If this work is available
at any university or public library in the US, you may be able to
obtain a copy on inter-library loan through a university or large
public library near where you live. In the future, please include your
name and location. That makes it much easier for H-SIG subscribers to
provide helpful info.


Hungary SIG #Hungary Re: "Counted Remnants" #hungary

Albert Benedict
 

Thank you moderator VK. I am sorry to be so neglectful to follow the
guidelines. I will follow up your suggestions to find the book With
best regards and Happy Holidays, Al Benedict

Albert Benedict wrote:

I have checked on line book stores for "Counted Remnants"--Register of
the Jewish Survivors in Budapest (Ed. in English by the Hungarian
section of the World Jewish Federation, 1946) and have not be able to
find this book. I would greatly appreciate learning where I may
purchase this book using the internet. Thank you, Al Benedict
(albertbe@hawaii.edu)

Parenthetically, I am researching my ancestors as follows:

Jonas: Miskolc and Budapest
Benedek and Rosenberg: Rabahidvegy, Budapest, Nagyszentmiklos
Stark and Weisz: Onod, Hungary
Mannheimer and Spitzer: Reichenau, Pecs, Budapest

Moderator VK: Contrary to H-SIG procedure you did not indicate where
you live. Based on your e-mail address, I assume that you are in
Hawaii and far >from Washington DC where you could find a copy of this
book at the US Holocaust Memorial Museum. If this work is available
at any university or public library in the US, you may be able to
obtain a copy on inter-library loan through a university or large
public library near where you live. In the future, please include your
name and location. That makes it much easier for H-SIG subscribers to
provide helpful info.


Re: hebrew definition of "Pepi" and "Lena" #hungary

Prof. G. L. Esterson <jerry@...>
 

Joe Wein posted as follows:

"I am finding a lot of times during research the
Hungarian girl's names "Pepi" and "Lena" I ones
thought it means "Tziporah" or Tzipi" but several
times I realized it couldn't be

does anyone knows exactly what the name would be in
Hebrew"

The German name PEPPI (sometimes spelled Pepi in JewishGen data bases) was
authorized by the rabbis in Hungary to be used as an identifying name for a
Jewish woman who was involved in a Jewish divorce suit. In general, this
name was used by Hungarian women who had any of a number of different
Hebrew or Yiddish names as their primary name. Thus, for a woman whose
Yiddish name was Beyle, and who had no Hebrew name, her name would be
written in the Get as "Beyle haMechuna Peppi", all in Hebrew characters, of
course. This name is therefor her _legal_ Jewish name for divorce purposes.

Thus, in general, there is no specific Hebrew or Yiddish name that is
exclusively the "owner" of the German name Peppi. The name Peppi was
widely used throughout Europe in countries where German culture had taken
hold during the 19th century, to the extent that in some of these countries
it was thought that the name was a local secular name.

The same comments can be made about the German secular name LENA -- it also
was authorized by the rabbis in the same way and it was used in general by
women having many different Hebrew or Yiddish names. And it was later
thought to be a Hungarian secular name in Hungary.

Professor G. L. Esterson, Ra'anana, Israel


FW: Pepe, Lena , Berta #hungary

DAVID A. KLEIN <davidklein@...>
 

To the best of my knowledge, Pepe is a common Hungarian diminutive. My
Grandmother Pepe's name was Pearl/Perl. Her mother Leah is shown as Lena on
Pepe's marriage certificate (1895). Her mother-in-law was Beila (Bella) was
shown as Bertha in the 1900 census, and Pepe was shown as Pauline.

David Klein
San Rafael, CA

Researching: SINGER/ZINGER, WEISS, WEISBERGER, BRESLAU/BRESSLER, EISNER,
KLEIN, WALDMAN; Ung, Bereg and zemplin counties


Re: [jgsgb-discuss] Susser Archive now on JCR-UK - A major Anglo-Jewish resource #unitedkingdom

Cyril Fox <cyril@...>
 

Congratulations to all concerned and many thanks to Frank Gent for making
available to the JGSGB, and hence JCR-UK , the major Susser Archive.
This ensures that the late Rabbi Susser's work will be easily available to a
large genealogical audience.
Let us remember that he did it as a labour of love , and bless his memory.

Cyril Fox


Hungary SIG #Hungary Re: hebrew definition of "Pepi" and "Lena" #hungary

Prof. G. L. Esterson <jerry@...>
 

Joe Wein posted as follows:

"I am finding a lot of times during research the
Hungarian girl's names "Pepi" and "Lena" I ones
thought it means "Tziporah" or Tzipi" but several
times I realized it couldn't be

does anyone knows exactly what the name would be in
Hebrew"

The German name PEPPI (sometimes spelled Pepi in JewishGen data bases) was
authorized by the rabbis in Hungary to be used as an identifying name for a
Jewish woman who was involved in a Jewish divorce suit. In general, this
name was used by Hungarian women who had any of a number of different
Hebrew or Yiddish names as their primary name. Thus, for a woman whose
Yiddish name was Beyle, and who had no Hebrew name, her name would be
written in the Get as "Beyle haMechuna Peppi", all in Hebrew characters, of
course. This name is therefor her _legal_ Jewish name for divorce purposes.

Thus, in general, there is no specific Hebrew or Yiddish name that is
exclusively the "owner" of the German name Peppi. The name Peppi was
widely used throughout Europe in countries where German culture had taken
hold during the 19th century, to the extent that in some of these countries
it was thought that the name was a local secular name.

The same comments can be made about the German secular name LENA -- it also
was authorized by the rabbis in the same way and it was used in general by
women having many different Hebrew or Yiddish names. And it was later
thought to be a Hungarian secular name in Hungary.

Professor G. L. Esterson, Ra'anana, Israel