Date   

From Shetl to Milltown #hungary

Jerry Zeisler <jzeisler@...>
 

Thank you all for the information regarding the book. I appreciate all of
your efforts.

Sincerely,
Jerry Zeisler
Leesburg, Virginia

-----Original Message-----
From: Lynn Saul [mailto:lynnsaul@...]=20
Sent: Friday, November 07, 2003 9:17 AM
To: H-SIG
Subject: [h-sig] Re: h-sig digest: November 05, 2003


No, Scranton is in NE Pennsylvania and ">from Shetl to Milltown" deals
with the small towns in SW Pennsylvania outside of Pittsburgh.

<snip>


Jewish cemetery in Tolmacs and in Vysoka nad Kysucou #hungary

levinson <newsint@...>
 

Dear all,

1.On our visit to Hungary on September 2003, we found a Jewish cemetery in
Tolmacs, a village in Nograd County, near Retsag. There are few tomb stones
left of the families: Adler, Blau and Wiesz. We took general view pictures.

2. We visited also the cemetery in Vysoka nad Kysucou in the former Trencsin
County, slovakia. We found tombs, all of them Hochfelder. Three of them
Cohens/Kohns with the marks of the hands on them, and 6 of "Israel". The
inscriptions are beautiful, without misspelling, with rhymed text and three
tombs had acrostic with the name of the diseased. The name itself written in
Hebrew in the fashion of the Yiddish speakers, but the rest of the text was
in ordinary Hebrew.
There were no birth dates on the tombstones. Two tombstones featured the age
of the diseased. Likewise, the match between Hebrew and Gregorian years was
inconsistent. The earliest tomb we've found was >from 1882 and the latest
from 1919. We took pictures of all the tombs.
Yehuda (in German: Eduward), ben Hanoch Hochfelder
Ephraim (in German: Ferdinand) Hochfelder
Josefin daughter of Ya’acov Hochfelder and her sister Illegible
Samuel Hochfelder
Josef Hochfelder
Zartl, wife of Mendel Hochfelder
Illegible given name (Kohn) Hochfelder
Moshe Kohn Hochfelder
Shraga ben Betsalel Hochfelder HaKohn

Esther Levinson


Hungary SIG #Hungary From Shetl to Milltown #hungary

Jerry Zeisler <jzeisler@...>
 

Thank you all for the information regarding the book. I appreciate all of
your efforts.

Sincerely,
Jerry Zeisler
Leesburg, Virginia

-----Original Message-----
From: Lynn Saul [mailto:lynnsaul@...]=20
Sent: Friday, November 07, 2003 9:17 AM
To: H-SIG
Subject: [h-sig] Re: h-sig digest: November 05, 2003


No, Scranton is in NE Pennsylvania and ">from Shetl to Milltown" deals
with the small towns in SW Pennsylvania outside of Pittsburgh.

<snip>


Hungary SIG #Hungary Jewish cemetery in Tolmacs and in Vysoka nad Kysucou #hungary

levinson <newsint@...>
 

Dear all,

1.On our visit to Hungary on September 2003, we found a Jewish cemetery in
Tolmacs, a village in Nograd County, near Retsag. There are few tomb stones
left of the families: Adler, Blau and Wiesz. We took general view pictures.

2. We visited also the cemetery in Vysoka nad Kysucou in the former Trencsin
County, slovakia. We found tombs, all of them Hochfelder. Three of them
Cohens/Kohns with the marks of the hands on them, and 6 of "Israel". The
inscriptions are beautiful, without misspelling, with rhymed text and three
tombs had acrostic with the name of the diseased. The name itself written in
Hebrew in the fashion of the Yiddish speakers, but the rest of the text was
in ordinary Hebrew.
There were no birth dates on the tombstones. Two tombstones featured the age
of the diseased. Likewise, the match between Hebrew and Gregorian years was
inconsistent. The earliest tomb we've found was >from 1882 and the latest
from 1919. We took pictures of all the tombs.
Yehuda (in German: Eduward), ben Hanoch Hochfelder
Ephraim (in German: Ferdinand) Hochfelder
Josefin daughter of Ya’acov Hochfelder and her sister Illegible
Samuel Hochfelder
Josef Hochfelder
Zartl, wife of Mendel Hochfelder
Illegible given name (Kohn) Hochfelder
Moshe Kohn Hochfelder
Shraga ben Betsalel Hochfelder HaKohn

Esther Levinson


Re: jewish birth traditions #hungary

Z Schonbrun <zschonbr@...>
 

"Witness to the circumcision" is most likely referring to the Sandek, the
person who receives the honor of resting the baby on his lap while the
circumcision is performed. This honor is traditionally given to a respected
family member or other prominent person, with first in line usually being
the grandfather of the baby - i.e. it's quite likely that this would be the
baby's mother's father. Traditionally, a person would not use the same
person as sandek twice, so it would make sense that this name would not
appear as "witness" to any of this baby's brothers.

----- Original Message -----
From: "d pfalzer" <d_pfalzer@...>
To: "H-SIG" <h-sig@...>
Sent: Thursday, November 06, 2003 2:15 PM
Subject: [h-sig] jewish birth traditions



As a result of my recent success with locating my
Neumann branch in Belicza [found in the county of
Zala], I have a question about one item of information
on my ggm's brother's birth record.

On these birth records I see a column headed "Name der
Pathen eder Zeugen" that I have surmised is the
witness to the circumcision. Please help me
understand who I should expect these people to be.
How would they be chosen?

In particular, what I really wish to know is that
given that the witness to the eldest son's
circumcision has the surname Kohn -- the same as the
mother's maiden name -- what is the likelihood that he
is her father? Can anything be read into his not
appearing as the witness for later grandsons?


Re: McKeesport, PA #hungary

Ida & Joseph Schwarcz <idayosef@...>
 

Dear Mimi,
Best place for you to go is Pittsburgh Jewish Genealogical Society.
Ida

-----Original Message-----
From: mimisimon@... [mailto:mimisimon@...]
Sent: Saturday, November 08, 2003 7:33 PM
To: H-SIG
Subject: [h-sig] McKeesport, PA


Hello h-siggers,
I, too, have relatives who lived in McKeesport and subsequently in White
Oak, PA. My paternal great aunt, Lena Weiss Gottleib, her husband,Emanuel,
and their four sons: Milton, Harold, Jerome, and Sidney, lived there.
Lena's
nieces, Blanche Weiss and Sarah Weiss came to live with her until they
married. Blanche married Frank Schwartz and Sarah married Louis Berky. My
paternal uncles and their wives, Martin and Carrie Weiss and Morris and
Louise Weiss lived in White Oak where Morris widow still resides.
Some members of the extended Weiss clan lived in Homestead also and other
parts of the Pittsburgh suburban area, North Braddock, Monroeville etc.
Joseph, my grandfather, and Rose, my grandmother, lived in East Pittsburgh.
Succeeding generations moved to White Oak, Monroeville, Squirrel Hill, and
other parts of Pittsburgh.
If any of these names ring a bell, please contact me privately.

Best regards,


WEISS - Ordarma, Hungary (Storozhnitsa, Ukraine); East Pittsburgh, PA
ROTH - Olaszliska, Hungary; East Pittsburgh, PA; Braddock, PA
GOLDBERGER - Hungary; Ft. Wayne, Ind.
KLEIN - Keked, Hungary; East Pittsburgh, PA; Turtle Creek, PA; NYC, NY
PRINCE - Hungary; Mt. Vernon, NY; Yonkers, NY
ETTINGER - Hungary; Mt. Vernon, NY; Yonkers, NY


Hungary SIG #Hungary Re: jewish birth traditions #hungary

Z Schonbrun <zschonbr@...>
 

"Witness to the circumcision" is most likely referring to the Sandek, the
person who receives the honor of resting the baby on his lap while the
circumcision is performed. This honor is traditionally given to a respected
family member or other prominent person, with first in line usually being
the grandfather of the baby - i.e. it's quite likely that this would be the
baby's mother's father. Traditionally, a person would not use the same
person as sandek twice, so it would make sense that this name would not
appear as "witness" to any of this baby's brothers.

----- Original Message -----
From: "d pfalzer" <d_pfalzer@...>
To: "H-SIG" <h-sig@...>
Sent: Thursday, November 06, 2003 2:15 PM
Subject: [h-sig] jewish birth traditions



As a result of my recent success with locating my
Neumann branch in Belicza [found in the county of
Zala], I have a question about one item of information
on my ggm's brother's birth record.

On these birth records I see a column headed "Name der
Pathen eder Zeugen" that I have surmised is the
witness to the circumcision. Please help me
understand who I should expect these people to be.
How would they be chosen?

In particular, what I really wish to know is that
given that the witness to the eldest son's
circumcision has the surname Kohn -- the same as the
mother's maiden name -- what is the likelihood that he
is her father? Can anything be read into his not
appearing as the witness for later grandsons?


Hungary SIG #Hungary RE: McKeesport, PA #hungary

Ida & Joseph Schwarcz <idayosef@...>
 

Dear Mimi,
Best place for you to go is Pittsburgh Jewish Genealogical Society.
Ida

-----Original Message-----
From: mimisimon@... [mailto:mimisimon@...]
Sent: Saturday, November 08, 2003 7:33 PM
To: H-SIG
Subject: [h-sig] McKeesport, PA


Hello h-siggers,
I, too, have relatives who lived in McKeesport and subsequently in White
Oak, PA. My paternal great aunt, Lena Weiss Gottleib, her husband,Emanuel,
and their four sons: Milton, Harold, Jerome, and Sidney, lived there.
Lena's
nieces, Blanche Weiss and Sarah Weiss came to live with her until they
married. Blanche married Frank Schwartz and Sarah married Louis Berky. My
paternal uncles and their wives, Martin and Carrie Weiss and Morris and
Louise Weiss lived in White Oak where Morris widow still resides.
Some members of the extended Weiss clan lived in Homestead also and other
parts of the Pittsburgh suburban area, North Braddock, Monroeville etc.
Joseph, my grandfather, and Rose, my grandmother, lived in East Pittsburgh.
Succeeding generations moved to White Oak, Monroeville, Squirrel Hill, and
other parts of Pittsburgh.
If any of these names ring a bell, please contact me privately.

Best regards,


WEISS - Ordarma, Hungary (Storozhnitsa, Ukraine); East Pittsburgh, PA
ROTH - Olaszliska, Hungary; East Pittsburgh, PA; Braddock, PA
GOLDBERGER - Hungary; Ft. Wayne, Ind.
KLEIN - Keked, Hungary; East Pittsburgh, PA; Turtle Creek, PA; NYC, NY
PRINCE - Hungary; Mt. Vernon, NY; Yonkers, NY
ETTINGER - Hungary; Mt. Vernon, NY; Yonkers, NY


Looking for Herman Braun #hungary

Peter&Karen <sicesp@...>
 

Found my great-great grandfather Herman Braun on the 1900 U.S. census which
gives his birth in "Hungary" in "April 1863".

And his wife, my g-g-gmother Bertha Schoen born in Hungary, May 1868.
Married in the U.S. on November 29, 1885.

Only I don't have any ancestral town....Best way to proceed?

Peter Sices (BRAUN, EDELMAN)

Moderator VK: I would suggest that you identify and attempt to locate any records that might have more specific info about place of birth such as naturalization records, voting records, children's birth records. Where are your ggparents buried? They may have belonged to a landsmanschaft or benevolent association formed by former residents of the same community. Where did they settle in the US? Other Hungarian Jews who lived in the community at the same time may have come >from the same area. Also check resources such as Robert Perlman's book on the Hungarian-Jewish experience to identify areas in Hungary >from which immigration occured prior to 1885.


Hungary SIG #Hungary Looking for Herman Braun #hungary

Peter&Karen <sicesp@...>
 

Found my great-great grandfather Herman Braun on the 1900 U.S. census which
gives his birth in "Hungary" in "April 1863".

And his wife, my g-g-gmother Bertha Schoen born in Hungary, May 1868.
Married in the U.S. on November 29, 1885.

Only I don't have any ancestral town....Best way to proceed?

Peter Sices (BRAUN, EDELMAN)

Moderator VK: I would suggest that you identify and attempt to locate any records that might have more specific info about place of birth such as naturalization records, voting records, children's birth records. Where are your ggparents buried? They may have belonged to a landsmanschaft or benevolent association formed by former residents of the same community. Where did they settle in the US? Other Hungarian Jews who lived in the community at the same time may have come >from the same area. Also check resources such as Robert Perlman's book on the Hungarian-Jewish experience to identify areas in Hungary >from which immigration occured prior to 1885.


Heritage Foundation-Maintenace Division #hungary

hfpjc
 

Dear readers,

In response to the overwhelming amount of requests inundating our
office, we at the Heritage Foundation of Preservation of Jewish Cemeteries,
(a.k.a. HFPJC) hereby announce the establishment of the Maintenance
Division as an integral function of our organization.


Instrumental in the complete renovation of tens of neglected and
vandalized cemeteries throughout Eastern Europe, particularly in Hungary,
Romania, Slovakia, Western Ukraine and Serbia, our volunteer organization is
dedicated to assisting families who are interested in reconstructing the
gravesites of their ancestors.



Following the tremendous success of our initial efforts, we are now
advancing to another dimension hitherto inapplicable; namely, the
maintenance and protection of those reconstructed cemeteries. For those who
have expressed an interest in a formal plan of action to ensure the
cemeteries' year-round supervision, the Maintenance Division provides the
opportunity for Jews worldwide to take an active part in the preservation
and safeguarding of their ancestor's final resting places.



For more details, or if you have any pertinent information regarding
any cemetery, please contact us at:

Heritage Foundation for Preservation of Jewish Cemeteries

148 Ross Street

Brooklyn, NY 11211

Tel. (800) 945-1552/(718)302-5133

Fax: (718) 599-4997/ (718) 228-8368

E-mail:gen@...

We will be happy to assist you in any possible way.

Moderator VK: This is a one-time notice regarding a topic that may be of interest to H-SIG subscribers. This is not a JewishGen project. Please do not send inquiries to H-SIG but contact the Foundation directly if you have any questions.


Hungary SIG #Hungary Heritage Foundation-Maintenace Division #hungary

hfpjc
 

Dear readers,

In response to the overwhelming amount of requests inundating our
office, we at the Heritage Foundation of Preservation of Jewish Cemeteries,
(a.k.a. HFPJC) hereby announce the establishment of the Maintenance
Division as an integral function of our organization.


Instrumental in the complete renovation of tens of neglected and
vandalized cemeteries throughout Eastern Europe, particularly in Hungary,
Romania, Slovakia, Western Ukraine and Serbia, our volunteer organization is
dedicated to assisting families who are interested in reconstructing the
gravesites of their ancestors.



Following the tremendous success of our initial efforts, we are now
advancing to another dimension hitherto inapplicable; namely, the
maintenance and protection of those reconstructed cemeteries. For those who
have expressed an interest in a formal plan of action to ensure the
cemeteries' year-round supervision, the Maintenance Division provides the
opportunity for Jews worldwide to take an active part in the preservation
and safeguarding of their ancestor's final resting places.



For more details, or if you have any pertinent information regarding
any cemetery, please contact us at:

Heritage Foundation for Preservation of Jewish Cemeteries

148 Ross Street

Brooklyn, NY 11211

Tel. (800) 945-1552/(718)302-5133

Fax: (718) 599-4997/ (718) 228-8368

E-mail:gen@...

We will be happy to assist you in any possible way.

Moderator VK: This is a one-time notice regarding a topic that may be of interest to H-SIG subscribers. This is not a JewishGen project. Please do not send inquiries to H-SIG but contact the Foundation directly if you have any questions.


Hungarian material at Yad Vashem #hungary

henry wellisch <kelwel@...>
 

I am pleased to see that Sallyann Sack has responded to my original =
message. However >from her response it is still not clear whether the =
wartime Hungarian-Jewish census is available to researchers. Also the =
status of the of the material which was transferred to Yad Vashem >from =
the Hungarian National Archives is also unclear. Is this material =
available to researchers? Has it been sorted? Are there any finding =
aids? I wish some of the Israeli participants (specifically those in =
Jerusalem) of this newsgroup would approach the powers that be at Yad =
Vashem and find out what the situation is.
There is a conference next year in Jerusalem and now is the time to make =
preparations.
Henry Wellisch
Toronto


Henry asks about those infamous Hungarian census documents. In the early
1990s, Gabriel Bar Shaked, who then worked at Yad Vashem, showed me (and
others) information >from these censuses. They formed the basis of the =
work
he described at the 1994 Jerusalem genealogy conference. Bar Shaked no
longer is associated with Yad Vashem, but probably still lives in =
Jerusalem.

Sallyann Amdur Sack


The article shown below appeared in the summer of 2001 in the quarterly
magazine of Yad Vashem and is reproduced with their permission.
My question is this: Has anybody >from this group ever seen any of =
these
documents, which may be of great interest. Also what happened to the =
famous
or infamous Jewish census which the Hungarian government conducted =
during
the war and which is allegedly also at Yad Vashem.
Henry Wellisch
Toronto

At the end of April, Israeli Foreign Minister, Shimon Peres, and =
Hungarian
Minister of National Cultural Heritage, Zoltan Rockenbauer, signed an
agreement between the Government of the State of Israel and the =
Government
of the Republic of Hungary allowing copies of Holocaust documents from
Hungarian archives to be transferred to the Yad Vashern Archives.
According to Chairman of the Yad Vashem Directorate, Avner Shalev, =
this
documentation is extremely important for research into the Holocaust =
period
in Hungary, as it includes, among other information, that which pertains =
to
the roundup of the Jews prior to deportation, the aryanization of Jewish
property, and the deportation of the Jews, as well as legal documents =
and
lists of survivors who returned to Hungary at the end of the war. These
documents will be added to the more than 55 million pages of =
documentation
already stored in the Yad Vashem Archives.
The agreement concludes a process begun in January 1995, when a team =
of
researchers, working on behalf of the Yad Vashem Archives, started =
examining
the majority of Hungary's public archives, copying more than half a =
million
pages of Holocaust-era documentation on to microfilm. That same year, a
personal data protection act relating to archival documentation was =
passed
in Hungary, thus disabling such documentation >from leaving Hungary. In =
1997,
as a result of Hungarian governmental involvement, a special agreement =
to
ease the restrictions was negotiated. Due to various technical problems =
-
such as the instatement of a new Hungarian government- - copies of the
archival material could not be transferred to Yad Vashem's Archives =
until
now, through the assistance of the Hungarian Ambassador in Israel, Dr. =
Janos
Hovari.
Over the upcoming six months, Hungary will publicize the archival =
transfer
of the documents containing protected personal data, in order to allow =
for
all those desiring for reasons of privacy, to object to their names
appearing on documentation. Following the six-month period, the =
microfilm
copies will be transferred to the Yad Vashem Archives.


Hungary SIG #Hungary Hungarian material at Yad Vashem #hungary

henry wellisch <kelwel@...>
 

I am pleased to see that Sallyann Sack has responded to my original =
message. However >from her response it is still not clear whether the =
wartime Hungarian-Jewish census is available to researchers. Also the =
status of the of the material which was transferred to Yad Vashem >from =
the Hungarian National Archives is also unclear. Is this material =
available to researchers? Has it been sorted? Are there any finding =
aids? I wish some of the Israeli participants (specifically those in =
Jerusalem) of this newsgroup would approach the powers that be at Yad =
Vashem and find out what the situation is.
There is a conference next year in Jerusalem and now is the time to make =
preparations.
Henry Wellisch
Toronto


Henry asks about those infamous Hungarian census documents. In the early
1990s, Gabriel Bar Shaked, who then worked at Yad Vashem, showed me (and
others) information >from these censuses. They formed the basis of the =
work
he described at the 1994 Jerusalem genealogy conference. Bar Shaked no
longer is associated with Yad Vashem, but probably still lives in =
Jerusalem.

Sallyann Amdur Sack


The article shown below appeared in the summer of 2001 in the quarterly
magazine of Yad Vashem and is reproduced with their permission.
My question is this: Has anybody >from this group ever seen any of =
these
documents, which may be of great interest. Also what happened to the =
famous
or infamous Jewish census which the Hungarian government conducted =
during
the war and which is allegedly also at Yad Vashem.
Henry Wellisch
Toronto

At the end of April, Israeli Foreign Minister, Shimon Peres, and =
Hungarian
Minister of National Cultural Heritage, Zoltan Rockenbauer, signed an
agreement between the Government of the State of Israel and the =
Government
of the Republic of Hungary allowing copies of Holocaust documents from
Hungarian archives to be transferred to the Yad Vashern Archives.
According to Chairman of the Yad Vashem Directorate, Avner Shalev, =
this
documentation is extremely important for research into the Holocaust =
period
in Hungary, as it includes, among other information, that which pertains =
to
the roundup of the Jews prior to deportation, the aryanization of Jewish
property, and the deportation of the Jews, as well as legal documents =
and
lists of survivors who returned to Hungary at the end of the war. These
documents will be added to the more than 55 million pages of =
documentation
already stored in the Yad Vashem Archives.
The agreement concludes a process begun in January 1995, when a team =
of
researchers, working on behalf of the Yad Vashem Archives, started =
examining
the majority of Hungary's public archives, copying more than half a =
million
pages of Holocaust-era documentation on to microfilm. That same year, a
personal data protection act relating to archival documentation was =
passed
in Hungary, thus disabling such documentation >from leaving Hungary. In =
1997,
as a result of Hungarian governmental involvement, a special agreement =
to
ease the restrictions was negotiated. Due to various technical problems =
-
such as the instatement of a new Hungarian government- - copies of the
archival material could not be transferred to Yad Vashem's Archives =
until
now, through the assistance of the Hungarian Ambassador in Israel, Dr. =
Janos
Hovari.
Over the upcoming six months, Hungary will publicize the archival =
transfer
of the documents containing protected personal data, in order to allow =
for
all those desiring for reasons of privacy, to object to their names
appearing on documentation. Following the six-month period, the =
microfilm
copies will be transferred to the Yad Vashem Archives.


Town of Noble #ukraine

Lillian Siegfried <lillians@...>
 

Some time ago I received an e-mail >from some one who was planning a trip
to Noble in the Ukraine. His e-mail got lost in my computer. Would like
to know if he made that trip? Would appreciate a response.
Thank you.
Lillian Siegfreid
Staten Island, NY


Ukraine SIG #Ukraine Town of Noble #ukraine

Lillian Siegfried <lillians@...>
 

Some time ago I received an e-mail >from some one who was planning a trip
to Noble in the Ukraine. His e-mail got lost in my computer. Would like
to know if he made that trip? Would appreciate a response.
Thank you.
Lillian Siegfreid
Staten Island, NY


Re: jewish birth traditions #hungary

Lynn Saul <lynnsaul@...>
 

The "witness" or actually the person holding the child at the
circumcision ("sandek" in Hebrew) is often, traditionally, one of the
grandfathers. So the fact that this person has the mother's last name
is probably her father, or possibly a brother. You could surmise why
the person isn't the one for later children, but any of a million
reasons is possible (dead, not available, change in personal emotions,
someone else the parents of the baby wanted to honor).
Lynn Saul

-----Original Message-----
From: d pfalzer [mailto:d_pfalzer@...]
Sent: Thursday, November 06, 2003 12:16 PM
To: H-SIG
Subject: [h-sig] jewish birth traditions



As a result of my recent success with locating my
Neumann branch in Belicza [found in the county of
Zala], I have a question about one item of information
on my ggm's brother's birth record.

On these birth records I see a column headed "Name der
Pathen eder Zeugen" that I have surmised is the
witness to the circumcision. Please help me
understand who I should expect these people to be.
How would they be chosen?

In particular, what I really wish to know is that
given that the witness to the eldest son's
circumcision has the surname Kohn -- the same as the
mother's maiden name -- what is the likelihood that he
is her father? Can anything be read into his not
appearing as the witness for later grandsons?


Re: Herschel=Shumer?? #hungary

Prof. G. L. Esterson <jerry@...>
 

Israel Pickholtz posted on the Hungary-SIG as follows:

"We have a birth record (1893) in Kurima (Slovakia) for a person with the given
name Shumer. In real life he was known as Herschel and also Herman.

Any thoughts on Shumer as a given name?"

Aside >from a possible mistake in writing or in reading the record, two
possibilities are:

Shomer >from Hebrew "Guard/Guardian" Kings II 12:21
Shume >from Hebrew "Assessment" Chron I 2:53

Both names must have been used but sparingly in Eastern Europe. The
Hungarian Given Names Data Base (<
http://www.jewishgen.org/databases/GivenNames/ >) shows no evidence of
these names, although I have seen the Yiddish names Shumlin/Shimlin used
in Poland as kinuim for Aleksander and Shneyur.

Professor G. L. Esterson, Ra'anana, Israel


Hungary SIG #Hungary RE: jewish birth traditions #hungary

Lynn Saul <lynnsaul@...>
 

The "witness" or actually the person holding the child at the
circumcision ("sandek" in Hebrew) is often, traditionally, one of the
grandfathers. So the fact that this person has the mother's last name
is probably her father, or possibly a brother. You could surmise why
the person isn't the one for later children, but any of a million
reasons is possible (dead, not available, change in personal emotions,
someone else the parents of the baby wanted to honor).
Lynn Saul

-----Original Message-----
From: d pfalzer [mailto:d_pfalzer@...]
Sent: Thursday, November 06, 2003 12:16 PM
To: H-SIG
Subject: [h-sig] jewish birth traditions



As a result of my recent success with locating my
Neumann branch in Belicza [found in the county of
Zala], I have a question about one item of information
on my ggm's brother's birth record.

On these birth records I see a column headed "Name der
Pathen eder Zeugen" that I have surmised is the
witness to the circumcision. Please help me
understand who I should expect these people to be.
How would they be chosen?

In particular, what I really wish to know is that
given that the witness to the eldest son's
circumcision has the surname Kohn -- the same as the
mother's maiden name -- what is the likelihood that he
is her father? Can anything be read into his not
appearing as the witness for later grandsons?


Hungary SIG #Hungary Re: Herschel=Shumer?? #hungary

Prof. G. L. Esterson <jerry@...>
 

Israel Pickholtz posted on the Hungary-SIG as follows:

"We have a birth record (1893) in Kurima (Slovakia) for a person with the given
name Shumer. In real life he was known as Herschel and also Herman.

Any thoughts on Shumer as a given name?"

Aside >from a possible mistake in writing or in reading the record, two
possibilities are:

Shomer >from Hebrew "Guard/Guardian" Kings II 12:21
Shume >from Hebrew "Assessment" Chron I 2:53

Both names must have been used but sparingly in Eastern Europe. The
Hungarian Given Names Data Base (<
http://www.jewishgen.org/databases/GivenNames/ >) shows no evidence of
these names, although I have seen the Yiddish names Shumlin/Shimlin used
in Poland as kinuim for Aleksander and Shneyur.

Professor G. L. Esterson, Ra'anana, Israel