My family are trying to track down the origins of a genealogical
story that has been passed down through a number of generations,
and we are not sure how to start verifying it.

Appoarently, in Jerusalem, in the late 19th, a Sephardi rabbi agreed
for his daughter to be married to an Ashkenazi rabbi's son, in order
to promote calm between the two communities. However, the Sephardi
rabbi only agreed to the marriage if the young couple kept the
Sephardi name: AZULAI. (The Ashkenazi name is MANDELBAUM, possibly
Simcha MANDELBAUM - lived in the house that later sat next to the
Mandelbaum Gate). So, my Ashkenazi family ended up with a Sephardi
surname.

We would love to trace these two gentlemen and understand the family
tree beteen them and us, and between the Rav AZULAI and his ancestry
to Chaim Joseph David. (I am the grandaughter of Rabbi Baruch AZULAY,
who was, apparently, the last of a line of 31 generations of rabbis,
and I am sure this must be documented somewhere).

And we don't know where to start. So thought we'd submit this
posting and see if anyone can help.

Thank you.

Deborah Taffler
London
mailto:taffler@pentagram.co.uk

My family are trying to track down the origins of a genealogical
story that has been passed down through a number of generations,
and we are not sure how to start verifying it.

Appoarently, in Jerusalem, in the late 19th, a Sephardi rabbi agreed
for his daughter to be married to an Ashkenazi rabbi's son, in order
to promote calm between the two communities. However, the Sephardi
rabbi only agreed to the marriage if the young couple kept the
Sephardi name: AZULAI. (The Ashkenazi name is MANDELBAUM, possibly
Simcha MANDELBAUM - lived in the house that later sat next to the
Mandelbaum Gate). So, my Ashkenazi family ended up with a Sephardi
surname.

We would love to trace these two gentlemen and understand the family
tree beteen them and us, and between the Rav AZULAI and his ancestry
to Chaim Joseph David. (I am the grandaughter of Rabbi Baruch AZULAY,
who was, apparently, the last of a line of 31 generations of rabbis,
and I am sure this must be documented somewhere).

And we don't know where to start. So thought we'd submit this
posting and see if anyone can help.

Thank you.

Deborah Taffler
London
mailto:taffler@pentagram.co.uk

Dear Genners,

In a posting by R'Nachum TUCHMAN >from 21 Nov. 2002, to which I had
no time to react, he notes "there is nothing to indicate how he was
descended >from him." It refers to the descendancy of R'Moshe Yair
b'Mordechay David WEINSTOCK >from R'Shmuel Shmelke b'Zvi Hirsh
ISH-HOROVITZ m'Niklsburg.

According to my data R'Shmuel Shmelke was the 4th great grandfather
of R' Moshe Yair as follows:

Moshe Yair WEINSTOCK
b'Malka Aksa BIEDERMAN
b'Miryam Frume HOROVITZ
b'Noach Pinchas HOROVITZ
b'Yakov David HOROVITZ
b'Zvi Yehoshua Arye ISH-HOROVITZ
b'Shmuel Shmelke ISH-HOROVITZ.

BTW R'Yakov Yitzchak RABINOVITZ (Hayehudi Hakadosh) died 19 Tishrei
5574 (1813) and not 5577 (1816). >from many sources. His son
Yerachmiel Moshe died 8 Iyar 5599 (1839).

Some other remarks:

* The daughter of R'Yakov Yitzchak who married R'Moshe BIEDERMAN was
Rivka Rachel.
* Lea the daughter of R'David BIEDERMAN married R'Meir KRAKOVSKI,
ABD m'Przedborz.
* R'Moshe died 13 Tevet 1611 (18 Dec. 1850)
* R'Yitzchak David b'Moshe BIEDERMAN died 3 Tishrei 5747 (1886).
* R'Zvi HOROVITZ b'Chozeh married Malka b'Natan Neta m'Chelm,
apparently named after R'Natan Neta's mother.
* R'Zvi HOROVITZ had another son besides Eliezer, Mordechay Zev
b'Zvi HOROVITZ m'Korets. I don't know of a daughter R'Zvi had.

The information published on 26 Non.2002 by Peretz Mett as a reply
the above mentioned letter >from 11 Nov.2002 is entirely correct.

Dr. Yehuda Klausner
mailto:klausner@alumni.princeton.edu

Searching:
KLAUSNER (KLAUZNER, CLOISNER, KLUZNER, etc.), BARZAM, KADISH, BUSHKE
(BOSHKE), ZEINWIRT (ZENVIRT), EILENBERG (ILENBERG), LIEBERMAN (all
spellings), WITKIND, HOCHGELEHRNTER (GELEHRNTER), ENGLMAN (ENGELMAN),
IROM (IRAM) TEUMIM, MICHELSON Great Britain, South Africa, Rhodesia
etc.), Descendants of Moshe ben Meir KATZNELENBOGEN of Chelm, HERLING,
KATZ, (HaCOHEN, KAHANE, COHEN, etc.) >from Galicia, GRINBERG (all
spellings).

Dear Genners,

In a posting by R'Nachum TUCHMAN >from 21 Nov. 2002, to which I had
no time to react, he notes "there is nothing to indicate how he was
descended >from him." It refers to the descendancy of R'Moshe Yair
b'Mordechay David WEINSTOCK >from R'Shmuel Shmelke b'Zvi Hirsh
ISH-HOROVITZ m'Niklsburg.

According to my data R'Shmuel Shmelke was the 4th great grandfather
of R' Moshe Yair as follows:

Moshe Yair WEINSTOCK
b'Malka Aksa BIEDERMAN
b'Miryam Frume HOROVITZ
b'Noach Pinchas HOROVITZ
b'Yakov David HOROVITZ
b'Zvi Yehoshua Arye ISH-HOROVITZ
b'Shmuel Shmelke ISH-HOROVITZ.

BTW R'Yakov Yitzchak RABINOVITZ (Hayehudi Hakadosh) died 19 Tishrei
5574 (1813) and not 5577 (1816). >from many sources. His son
Yerachmiel Moshe died 8 Iyar 5599 (1839).

Some other remarks:

* The daughter of R'Yakov Yitzchak who married R'Moshe BIEDERMAN was
Rivka Rachel.
* Lea the daughter of R'David BIEDERMAN married R'Meir KRAKOVSKI,
ABD m'Przedborz.
* R'Moshe died 13 Tevet 1611 (18 Dec. 1850)
* R'Yitzchak David b'Moshe BIEDERMAN died 3 Tishrei 5747 (1886).
* R'Zvi HOROVITZ b'Chozeh married Malka b'Natan Neta m'Chelm,
apparently named after R'Natan Neta's mother.
* R'Zvi HOROVITZ had another son besides Eliezer, Mordechay Zev
b'Zvi HOROVITZ m'Korets. I don't know of a daughter R'Zvi had.

The information published on 26 Non.2002 by Peretz Mett as a reply
the above mentioned letter >from 11 Nov.2002 is entirely correct.

Dr. Yehuda Klausner
mailto:klausner@alumni.princeton.edu

Searching:
KLAUSNER (KLAUZNER, CLOISNER, KLUZNER, etc.), BARZAM, KADISH, BUSHKE
(BOSHKE), ZEINWIRT (ZENVIRT), EILENBERG (ILENBERG), LIEBERMAN (all
spellings), WITKIND, HOCHGELEHRNTER (GELEHRNTER), ENGLMAN (ENGELMAN),
IROM (IRAM) TEUMIM, MICHELSON Great Britain, South Africa, Rhodesia
etc.), Descendants of Moshe ben Meir KATZNELENBOGEN of Chelm, HERLING,
KATZ, (HaCOHEN, KAHANE, COHEN, etc.) >from Galicia, GRINBERG (all
spellings).

"I must be doing something wrong so I am turning to the experts
for advice. I found my great grandmother & 3 children on the
EIDB coming in on the SS Weiland on 3/21/1892 but no matter how
I try on the Morse one step I cannot bring up the correct page
to view the manifest. The EIDB has the wrong manifest. Instead
of the Weiland it is showing the Rhyland. I have the roll # and
the frame is 660 on page 14 with passenger numbers 0500 thru 0503
but cannot view it. Can someone out there with a little more
expertise tell me how I can do this short of going to NARA."

It's probably somewhere on the same microfilm role, but for some
reason the EIDB is giving you the wrong page/image. I don't know
why this occurs.

I had a similar problem, and was able to figure it out with the
help of http://www.jewishgen.org/infofiles/eidbfaq.html. Briefly,
when you find the list of ships and arrival dates that appear on
the microfilm reel, you can confirm that it's the proper reel, and
then figure out whether to go forward or backward, depending on if
the Weiland is listed before or after the Rhyland. If you're
unlucky, you'll have to go 100 pages or more ahead or backwards

from where you keep landing with the EIDB. I was able to do so

only one page at a time, but when I reached the proper ship, I was
soon able to find my relatives -- with two entries: one for when
they arrived, and one for when they were released.

Good luck.

Ira Leviton, New York, N.Y.
searching for
LEWITAN (Rypin and Myszyniec, Pol.); NIEDOBITEK (Rypin, Pol.);
REBHUN, RAPHAN, etc. (Rzemien and Ropczyce, Pol.); BLANK
(Niedzwiada and Ropczyce, Pol.); STRICK (Mielec and Ropczyce,
Pol.); KORN (Gorlice and Ropczyce, Pol.); ATLAS (Wien/Vienna,
Austria)

The header for this wonderful discussion groups says, :

~~~~~~~~~~JewishGen's Annual Appeal and YOU~~~~~~~~~~~~
$300,000 needed by year end
$181,135 raised Aug 5 to Dec 13

Come on everybody, i'd like to invite you all to send some more
extra money, if it's not a hardship, to help these wonderful people.

Give me a J - Jewish

Give me a G - Gift

Give me a D - Discussion

Give me a G - Gift again!

(how to tell if someone was in sports in high school in the united
states in the 1960's - these silly team cheers using the letters of
the team name )

this stands for.... *Jewish Gen Discussion Group*

Have fun, everyone.

Lilli Sprintz

"I must be doing something wrong so I am turning to the experts
for advice. I found my great grandmother & 3 children on the
EIDB coming in on the SS Weiland on 3/21/1892 but no matter how
I try on the Morse one step I cannot bring up the correct page
to view the manifest. The EIDB has the wrong manifest. Instead
of the Weiland it is showing the Rhyland. I have the roll # and
the frame is 660 on page 14 with passenger numbers 0500 thru 0503
but cannot view it. Can someone out there with a little more
expertise tell me how I can do this short of going to NARA."

It's probably somewhere on the same microfilm role, but for some
reason the EIDB is giving you the wrong page/image. I don't know
why this occurs.

I had a similar problem, and was able to figure it out with the
help of http://www.jewishgen.org/infofiles/eidbfaq.html. Briefly,
when you find the list of ships and arrival dates that appear on
the microfilm reel, you can confirm that it's the proper reel, and
then figure out whether to go forward or backward, depending on if
the Weiland is listed before or after the Rhyland. If you're
unlucky, you'll have to go 100 pages or more ahead or backwards

from where you keep landing with the EIDB. I was able to do so

only one page at a time, but when I reached the proper ship, I was
soon able to find my relatives -- with two entries: one for when
they arrived, and one for when they were released.

Good luck.

Ira Leviton, New York, N.Y.
searching for
LEWITAN (Rypin and Myszyniec, Pol.); NIEDOBITEK (Rypin, Pol.);
REBHUN, RAPHAN, etc. (Rzemien and Ropczyce, Pol.); BLANK
(Niedzwiada and Ropczyce, Pol.); STRICK (Mielec and Ropczyce,
Pol.); KORN (Gorlice and Ropczyce, Pol.); ATLAS (Wien/Vienna,
Austria)

The header for this wonderful discussion groups says, :

~~~~~~~~~~JewishGen's Annual Appeal and YOU~~~~~~~~~~~~
$300,000 needed by year end
$181,135 raised Aug 5 to Dec 13

Come on everybody, i'd like to invite you all to send some more
extra money, if it's not a hardship, to help these wonderful people.

Give me a J - Jewish

Give me a G - Gift

Give me a D - Discussion

Give me a G - Gift again!

(how to tell if someone was in sports in high school in the united
states in the 1960's - these silly team cheers using the letters of
the team name )

this stands for.... *Jewish Gen Discussion Group*

Have fun, everyone.

Lilli Sprintz

On 2002.12.23, Yoni Ben-Ari <yonatan@religions.gov.il> writes:

How is it that three generations of very active Chassidim would each
be connected to another chassidut. Was identity with a certain
Admor done more on an individual basis that family tradition? were
these three chassiduot connected somehow (geographically?).

Dear Yoni:

It is not usual for different family members to be associated with
different Rebbes. To begin with, many of the Rebbes are related to
each other through marriage. Many of the subsequent Rebbes are
descendant >from the Ruzhiner Rebbe. Just to give you an idea, the
following is >from the wonderful book, "Golden Dynasty" by Yisroel
Friedman, 1997, on the descendants of Yisroel Friedman, the
Ruzhiner.

"The Rebbe's derech was carried on through his six sons [...] The
Rebbe's oldest son, Reb Sholom Yosef, was niftar less than a year
after his father and was succeeded by his son Reb Yitzchok, who
became the first Bohusher Rebbe.

The Ruzhiner's second son, Reb Avrohom Yaakov, took his father's
place in Sadiger. He had two sons, the eldest, Reb Yitzchok, was
the first Boyaner Rebbe and the younger son, Reb Yisroel, was rebbe
in Sadiger.

The third son of the Ruzhiner was Reb Dov Ber who was rebbe in Lieov
and the fourth son, Reb Menachem Nachum, was rebbe in Sthefanesht.
Reb Dovid Moshe, the Chortkover Rebbe, was the fifth son and Reb
Mordechai Shraga, the Husyatiner Rebbe, was the sixth son.

In addition to his sons, the Ruzhiner also had four daughters. The
eldest daughter - Chaya Malka, was married to Reb Yitzchok of Skver.
The next daughter - Gitel, was married to Reb Yosef Mansohn. Their
elder son Reb Levi Yitzchok was rebbe in Ozeranah and their second
son Reb Chaim Dov was rebbe in Brod. The third daughter - Miriam,
was married to Reb Menachem Mendel of Vishnitz, founder of the
famous Vishnitzer dynasty. The last daughter - Leah, was married to
Reb Dovid Halpern. Their son, Reb Sholom Halpern, was the founder of
the Vasloier dynasty.

Through his six sons the Ruzhiner Chassidus spread far and wide,
bringing Yidden closer to their Father in Heaven ad bi'as go'el
tzedek. Amen."

That should give you some idea.

Arye Gordon
Los Angeles

On 2002.12.23, Yoni Ben-Ari <yonatan@religions.gov.il> writes:

How is it that three generations of very active Chassidim would each
be connected to another chassidut. Was identity with a certain
Admor done more on an individual basis that family tradition? were
these three chassiduot connected somehow (geographically?).

Dear Yoni:

It is not usual for different family members to be associated with
different Rebbes. To begin with, many of the Rebbes are related to
each other through marriage. Many of the subsequent Rebbes are
descendant >from the Ruzhiner Rebbe. Just to give you an idea, the
following is >from the wonderful book, "Golden Dynasty" by Yisroel
Friedman, 1997, on the descendants of Yisroel Friedman, the
Ruzhiner.

"The Rebbe's derech was carried on through his six sons [...] The
Rebbe's oldest son, Reb Sholom Yosef, was niftar less than a year
after his father and was succeeded by his son Reb Yitzchok, who
became the first Bohusher Rebbe.

The Ruzhiner's second son, Reb Avrohom Yaakov, took his father's
place in Sadiger. He had two sons, the eldest, Reb Yitzchok, was
the first Boyaner Rebbe and the younger son, Reb Yisroel, was rebbe
in Sadiger.

The third son of the Ruzhiner was Reb Dov Ber who was rebbe in Lieov
and the fourth son, Reb Menachem Nachum, was rebbe in Sthefanesht.
Reb Dovid Moshe, the Chortkover Rebbe, was the fifth son and Reb
Mordechai Shraga, the Husyatiner Rebbe, was the sixth son.

In addition to his sons, the Ruzhiner also had four daughters. The
eldest daughter - Chaya Malka, was married to Reb Yitzchok of Skver.
The next daughter - Gitel, was married to Reb Yosef Mansohn. Their
elder son Reb Levi Yitzchok was rebbe in Ozeranah and their second
son Reb Chaim Dov was rebbe in Brod. The third daughter - Miriam,
was married to Reb Menachem Mendel of Vishnitz, founder of the
famous Vishnitzer dynasty. The last daughter - Leah, was married to
Reb Dovid Halpern. Their son, Reb Sholom Halpern, was the founder of
the Vasloier dynasty.

Through his six sons the Ruzhiner Chassidus spread far and wide,
bringing Yidden closer to their Father in Heaven ad bi'as go'el
tzedek. Amen."

That should give you some idea.

Arye Gordon
Los Angeles

On 2002.12.21, Bernard Kouchel <koosh@worldnet.att.net> wrote:

Rabbi Josiah DERBY
Born Berdichev, 7th generation direct descendant of R' Levi Yitzhak
Imm. US in 1921
Math degree Harvard.
Attended JTS, ordained 1943
Became rabbi of Rego Park (NYC)
Moved to Florida 1983
Created Coconut Creek Synagogue
Died Wed. Dec.18, 2002

I met Rabbi Lavey Derby some years ago when he ran programs at the
92nd St. Y, and wondered how a rabbi came to the very English
sounding family name. I now assume that the Derby family is >from the
male line of Rabbi Levi Yitzchok of Berditchev whose family name was
Derbaremdiger, which was presumably shortened in the US to Derby.

Best wishes
Rabbi A. Marmorstein

On 2002.12.21, Bernard Kouchel <koosh@worldnet.att.net> wrote:

Rabbi Josiah DERBY
Born Berdichev, 7th generation direct descendant of R' Levi Yitzhak
Imm. US in 1921
Math degree Harvard.
Attended JTS, ordained 1943
Became rabbi of Rego Park (NYC)
Moved to Florida 1983
Created Coconut Creek Synagogue
Died Wed. Dec.18, 2002

I met Rabbi Lavey Derby some years ago when he ran programs at the
92nd St. Y, and wondered how a rabbi came to the very English
sounding family name. I now assume that the Derby family is >from the
male line of Rabbi Levi Yitzchok of Berditchev whose family name was
Derbaremdiger, which was presumably shortened in the US to Derby.

Best wishes
Rabbi A. Marmorstein

I would appreciate any information re: Ytschak LEVI who
emigrated to NY ca: 1900 >from Derechin, Belarus. I believe
his son, Philip lived with him in New York City.

Stan Treitman
stant@accbi.com

MODERATOR NOTE: Please reply privately.

Hello,
My G-Grandmother Amelia SCHWARTZ (born 1868 in Hungary, died
1952 in Los Angeles) had a brother Moishe Boruch SCHWARTZ who
settled in England instead of the USA. My family lost touch
with him years ago. In the 1901 Census of England and Wales I
found a Morris SCHWARTZ of the correct age born in Hungary/
Austria. He lived at 15 Soho Sqe in the Strand Borough,
Administrative County: London. It also says : Ecclesiastical
Parish: St. Mary The Virgin. It also says he was married. I
would like to find out if this is the same man I am looking
for and if he has any grandchildren still living. Could someone
familiar with research in the UK advise me about what my next
step should be? Thank you!

Julie MALTZ BORMAN

MALCZ, MALTZ, MOSKOVITZ, ENGEL, SCHWARTZ, ROSENBAUM, SIMONOVITZ,
GROSZ, FRIED, BURGER, BREGMAN, BASKIND, GORDON, GERCHICOFF,
HEYMANN, LEVITAN

MODERATOR NOTE: You may also want to submit your query to the
Jewish Communities & Records - UK (JCR-UK) discussion group,
which specializes in UK research. You can subscribe to the
JCR-UK list at http://www.jewishgen.org/listserv/sigs.htm

I would appreciate any information re: Ytschak LEVI who
emigrated to NY ca: 1900 >from Derechin, Belarus. I believe
his son, Philip lived with him in New York City.

Stan Treitman
stant@accbi.com

MODERATOR NOTE: Please reply privately.

Hello,
My G-Grandmother Amelia SCHWARTZ (born 1868 in Hungary, died
1952 in Los Angeles) had a brother Moishe Boruch SCHWARTZ who
settled in England instead of the USA. My family lost touch
with him years ago. In the 1901 Census of England and Wales I
found a Morris SCHWARTZ of the correct age born in Hungary/
Austria. He lived at 15 Soho Sqe in the Strand Borough,
Administrative County: London. It also says : Ecclesiastical
Parish: St. Mary The Virgin. It also says he was married. I
would like to find out if this is the same man I am looking
for and if he has any grandchildren still living. Could someone
familiar with research in the UK advise me about what my next
step should be? Thank you!

Julie MALTZ BORMAN

MALCZ, MALTZ, MOSKOVITZ, ENGEL, SCHWARTZ, ROSENBAUM, SIMONOVITZ,
GROSZ, FRIED, BURGER, BREGMAN, BASKIND, GORDON, GERCHICOFF,
HEYMANN, LEVITAN

MODERATOR NOTE: You may also want to submit your query to the
Jewish Communities & Records - UK (JCR-UK) discussion group,
which specializes in UK research. You can subscribe to the
JCR-UK list at http://www.jewishgen.org/listserv/sigs.htm

I am trying to locate my relative Bertram MOSKOWITZ or his
children, son Geryl and daughter Carol. Bertram, the son of
Herbert and Lillian MOSKOWITZ, was born about 1925 probably
in Brooklyn and is or was married to Sheila. Please contact
me privately if you have any information about this family.

Vivian Kahn, Oakland, CA

I am trying to locate my relative Bertram MOSKOWITZ or his
children, son Geryl and daughter Carol. Bertram, the son of
Herbert and Lillian MOSKOWITZ, was born about 1925 probably
in Brooklyn and is or was married to Sheila. Please contact
me privately if you have any information about this family.

Vivian Kahn, Oakland, CA

I was informed by a fellow genner that a Rabbi TOSEFAA (I presume
that is how it's spelled in English. I only saw the Hebrew.) who is
documented as serving as a Rabbi in Pinsk until his death in 1866,
had a daughter who married a Mordecha Leib family-name not known.

I'm researching a possible relative >from Pinsk of those days, about
whom there is a family tradition that also served as a Rabbi in
Pinsk during the second half of the 19th century whose first name
was Mordechai, and his last name is not clear (something like
RUDINER).

Is anybody out there connected to this Rabbi TOSEFAA?

Yoni Ben-Ari, Jerusalem/Efrat

I was informed by a fellow genner that a Rabbi TOSEFAA (I presume
that is how it's spelled in English. I only saw the Hebrew.) who is
documented as serving as a Rabbi in Pinsk until his death in 1866,
had a daughter who married a Mordecha Leib family-name not known.

I'm researching a possible relative >from Pinsk of those days, about
whom there is a family tradition that also served as a Rabbi in
Pinsk during the second half of the 19th century whose first name
was Mordechai, and his last name is not clear (something like
RUDINER).

Is anybody out there connected to this Rabbi TOSEFAA?

Yoni Ben-Ari, Jerusalem/Efrat