Date   

Descendants of Meir of Rothenburg #germany

gregor brand <Gregor.Brand@...>
 

Following receipt of some sceptical mail concerning the origin of the
name MARAM I would like to point to the following:

1. The theory of a a direct genealogical relationship of the early bearers
of the name Maram to Rabbi Meir of Rothenburg was not developed by an
uncritical genealogical layman who wanted in a kind of wishful thinking
connect his family to famous forefathers.

It was explicated by Prof. Bernhard Brilling, who was a highly respected
scholar on Jewish history and genealogy. This does of course not mean that
everything he wrote was correct, but I think we should not underestimate
the critical seriousness and scrutiny of his findings.

Prof. Brilling cites, among others, a work >from R. Samuel ben David halewi
(1625 - 1681)>from Meseritz, in which is mentioned that all Maram are not
only named after Meir of Rothenburg, but that that they also belong to his
family. This seems to have been widespread knowledge among rabbinical
scholars in the 16th and 17th century at least in southern Germany, Alsace
and Switzerland.

2. The name Maram was a rare one in those times and limited to only a few
families. Maram was not a kinnui for Meir, but - as Prof. Brilling
explicates - Meir was a kinnui for Maram. [MOD NOTE - A citation of the
Brilling argument would have been most helpful here]

3. The linking of the name Maram to R. Meir of Rothenburg does not mean
that everyone who bears the name Maram (or Marum etc.) in the 19th or the
20th century, is a descendant of R. Meir. Prof. Brilling only says, that
everyone who descends >from a family in which this name was used in the
16th or 17th century, can claim with great probability descent >from the
MaHaRaM Rothenburg.

This does of course not mean that the Maram families were the sole
families with R. Meir as ancestor.

4. The years between the century of R. Meir Rothenburg and the 16th
century, when the (non biblical and non talmudic name) Maram is first
documented, were not only times of "turmoil, persecutions and pestilence",
but they were also times of well preserved strong traditions, of
rabbinical scholarship and of genealogical knowledge and consciousness.

When Jewish scholars in those times state that Maram is a name only in use
for some families which descend >from R. Meir of Rothenburg, then such
tradition has - in my eyes - considerable weight and is of real
genealogical importance.

Gregor Brand, Bargstedt, Germany www.angelfire.com/art/gregorbrand

MOD NOTE: This subject would probably be of more interest to the members
of RavSIG.


How can the same place be on different latitudes and longitudes? #general

Marilyn Feingold <mrl@...>
 

In searching shtetl seeker I found the same town with at least six different
latitudes and longitudes, yet they are all in Moldova and have the same
name. What's happening? New borders? Which do I trust?Thanks for any
insight.

Marilyn Feingold Atlanta, Georgia


Cuba (1696 Burials) #general

Daniel Kazez <dkazez@...>
 

Jews >from all over the world settled in Cuba, including part of my
own Alhadef family (>from Istanbul). Here is a listing of 1696
burials in two of Cuba's Jewish communities:

http://jewishcuba.org/famties/

http://www.kazez.com/~dan/Cuba-Burials.html

Dan

Daniel Kazez <dkazez@...>
Springfield, Ohio USA
Turkey: KAZEZ-KAZES, ALHADEF-ELHADEF, FRESKO-FRESCO, HABIB, DEVIDAS-DE VIDAS
http://userpages.wittenberg.edu/dkazez/dk/elh-kaz-fre.html


German SIG #Germany Descendants of Meir of Rothenburg #germany

gregor brand <Gregor.Brand@...>
 

Following receipt of some sceptical mail concerning the origin of the
name MARAM I would like to point to the following:

1. The theory of a a direct genealogical relationship of the early bearers
of the name Maram to Rabbi Meir of Rothenburg was not developed by an
uncritical genealogical layman who wanted in a kind of wishful thinking
connect his family to famous forefathers.

It was explicated by Prof. Bernhard Brilling, who was a highly respected
scholar on Jewish history and genealogy. This does of course not mean that
everything he wrote was correct, but I think we should not underestimate
the critical seriousness and scrutiny of his findings.

Prof. Brilling cites, among others, a work >from R. Samuel ben David halewi
(1625 - 1681)>from Meseritz, in which is mentioned that all Maram are not
only named after Meir of Rothenburg, but that that they also belong to his
family. This seems to have been widespread knowledge among rabbinical
scholars in the 16th and 17th century at least in southern Germany, Alsace
and Switzerland.

2. The name Maram was a rare one in those times and limited to only a few
families. Maram was not a kinnui for Meir, but - as Prof. Brilling
explicates - Meir was a kinnui for Maram. [MOD NOTE - A citation of the
Brilling argument would have been most helpful here]

3. The linking of the name Maram to R. Meir of Rothenburg does not mean
that everyone who bears the name Maram (or Marum etc.) in the 19th or the
20th century, is a descendant of R. Meir. Prof. Brilling only says, that
everyone who descends >from a family in which this name was used in the
16th or 17th century, can claim with great probability descent >from the
MaHaRaM Rothenburg.

This does of course not mean that the Maram families were the sole
families with R. Meir as ancestor.

4. The years between the century of R. Meir Rothenburg and the 16th
century, when the (non biblical and non talmudic name) Maram is first
documented, were not only times of "turmoil, persecutions and pestilence",
but they were also times of well preserved strong traditions, of
rabbinical scholarship and of genealogical knowledge and consciousness.

When Jewish scholars in those times state that Maram is a name only in use
for some families which descend >from R. Meir of Rothenburg, then such
tradition has - in my eyes - considerable weight and is of real
genealogical importance.

Gregor Brand, Bargstedt, Germany www.angelfire.com/art/gregorbrand

MOD NOTE: This subject would probably be of more interest to the members
of RavSIG.


JewishGen Discussion Group #JewishGen How can the same place be on different latitudes and longitudes? #general

Marilyn Feingold <mrl@...>
 

In searching shtetl seeker I found the same town with at least six different
latitudes and longitudes, yet they are all in Moldova and have the same
name. What's happening? New borders? Which do I trust?Thanks for any
insight.

Marilyn Feingold Atlanta, Georgia


JewishGen Discussion Group #JewishGen Cuba (1696 Burials) #general

Daniel Kazez <dkazez@...>
 

Jews >from all over the world settled in Cuba, including part of my
own Alhadef family (>from Istanbul). Here is a listing of 1696
burials in two of Cuba's Jewish communities:

http://jewishcuba.org/famties/

http://www.kazez.com/~dan/Cuba-Burials.html

Dan

Daniel Kazez <dkazez@...>
Springfield, Ohio USA
Turkey: KAZEZ-KAZES, ALHADEF-ELHADEF, FRESKO-FRESCO, HABIB, DEVIDAS-DE VIDAS
http://userpages.wittenberg.edu/dkazez/dk/elh-kaz-fre.html


Meras/and Helzel #lithuania

Eileen Douglas <faithdouglas@...>
 

Dear Litvak/Sigers, First thanks to those who answered my request to
try to find a Jonas Meras who was born in Vilnius in 1954 and appears to
have emigrated to the USA around 1990. I must apologize as I had the
first name incorrect. Actually the name is Jacob Meras....and if anyone
has information on Jacob Meras, please respond to me privately. Thanks.

As for helzel,..my grandmother made it and it was the treat of our
Friday night Shabbos meals at my grandparents' home every week. My
grandmother was >from Romania, however..and since it was my grandfather
who was the Litvak...either she made it for him, or they knew how to
make it in Romania as well, which would be my guess. All I regret is
that no one I know now makes it,...nor do I.

Eileen Douglas


Lithuania SIG #Lithuania Meras/and Helzel #lithuania

Eileen Douglas <faithdouglas@...>
 

Dear Litvak/Sigers, First thanks to those who answered my request to
try to find a Jonas Meras who was born in Vilnius in 1954 and appears to
have emigrated to the USA around 1990. I must apologize as I had the
first name incorrect. Actually the name is Jacob Meras....and if anyone
has information on Jacob Meras, please respond to me privately. Thanks.

As for helzel,..my grandmother made it and it was the treat of our
Friday night Shabbos meals at my grandparents' home every week. My
grandmother was >from Romania, however..and since it was my grandfather
who was the Litvak...either she made it for him, or they knew how to
make it in Romania as well, which would be my guess. All I regret is
that no one I know now makes it,...nor do I.

Eileen Douglas


Re: stuffed necks #lithuania

Martha Lev-Zion <martha@...>
 

If you were looking for a recipe, my mother's Settlement Cookbook of
1934 has two recipes for stuffed Goose neck.

Martha Lev-Zion, Israel


Lithuania SIG #Lithuania re: stuffed necks #lithuania

Martha Lev-Zion <martha@...>
 

If you were looking for a recipe, my mother's Settlement Cookbook of
1934 has two recipes for stuffed Goose neck.

Martha Lev-Zion, Israel


Re: Hezel #lithuania

Bronstein Family <sygaa@...>
 

Our helzel was boiled in the Friday night chicken soup and not baked. I
recall that my mother and grandmother would give the shohet special
instructions if they were planning on making helzel as he was the one who
cut up the kosher chickens. The shohet worked at an Italian chicken market
on 9th Street in South Philadelphia and would shecht for the Jewish
clientele. The fee was 25 cents for a chicken and 50 cents for a turkey.
This was in the 1950s.

Shalom Bronstein, Jerusalem


Re: "Hezel" #lithuania

Isabel Cymerman
 

Some of us, Galitzianers and Litvaks both, know this as stuffed derma.

Isabel Cymerman


Lithuania SIG #Lithuania RE: Hezel #lithuania

Bronstein Family <sygaa@...>
 

Our helzel was boiled in the Friday night chicken soup and not baked. I
recall that my mother and grandmother would give the shohet special
instructions if they were planning on making helzel as he was the one who
cut up the kosher chickens. The shohet worked at an Italian chicken market
on 9th Street in South Philadelphia and would shecht for the Jewish
clientele. The fee was 25 cents for a chicken and 50 cents for a turkey.
This was in the 1950s.

Shalom Bronstein, Jerusalem


Lithuania SIG #Lithuania Re: "Hezel" #lithuania

Isabel Cymerman
 

Some of us, Galitzianers and Litvaks both, know this as stuffed derma.

Isabel Cymerman


Helzel #lithuania

shaul <shaul@...>
 

Scott Noar wrote on 30/09/02 re hezel. Everyone loved it.It was basically the skin of the turkey neck that was stuffed, sewn
together and baked. Was this a familiar dish to others whose families were >>from Lithuania?
This , known as 'helzel', was very familiar to most South African
Litvaks.Every booba prided herself on the stuffing mixture. The remains fo
the neck were used in soup.


Saul Issroff


Lithuania SIG #Lithuania Helzel #lithuania

shaul <shaul@...>
 

Scott Noar wrote on 30/09/02 re hezel. Everyone loved it.It was basically the skin of the turkey neck that was stuffed, sewn
together and baked. Was this a familiar dish to others whose families were >>from Lithuania?
This , known as 'helzel', was very familiar to most South African
Litvaks.Every booba prided herself on the stuffing mixture. The remains fo
the neck were used in soup.


Saul Issroff


Re: Hezel #lithuania

Marjorie Rosenfeld <marjorierosenfeld@...>
 

Scott Noar asks whether "hezel" was a familiar dish to others whose families were >from Lithuania.

Yes, indeed, but we called it "helzel." It's like stuffed derma--flour,
onions, chicken fat, paprika, salt and pepper--but all this stuffed and
sewn up in the skin >from a chicken neck rather than stuffed into tripe (beef intestines). My mother, both of whose parents were Litvaks, used to make and roast this along with the rest of the chicken. I thought it was quite tasty.

Marjorie Rosenfeld
Carlsbad, CA


Re: Hezel / Helzel #lithuania

Ann Rabinowitz <annrab@...>
 

The word is actually "HELZEL", "gefilte helzel" or "stuffed derma" and
refers originally to the skin of the neck of a goose or other fowl such as
chicken which is stuffed with meat. There are also vegetarian forms as
well.

It is a quite common dish generally known throughout the Jewish culinary
world. It is not particular to Litvaks. You will find it in most Jewish
cookbooks.

Ann Rabinowitz
annrab@...


Lithuania SIG #Lithuania RE: Hezel #lithuania

Marjorie Rosenfeld <marjorierosenfeld@...>
 

Scott Noar asks whether "hezel" was a familiar dish to others whose families were >from Lithuania.

Yes, indeed, but we called it "helzel." It's like stuffed derma--flour,
onions, chicken fat, paprika, salt and pepper--but all this stuffed and
sewn up in the skin >from a chicken neck rather than stuffed into tripe (beef intestines). My mother, both of whose parents were Litvaks, used to make and roast this along with the rest of the chicken. I thought it was quite tasty.

Marjorie Rosenfeld
Carlsbad, CA


Lithuania SIG #Lithuania RE: Hezel / Helzel #lithuania

Ann Rabinowitz <annrab@...>
 

The word is actually "HELZEL", "gefilte helzel" or "stuffed derma" and
refers originally to the skin of the neck of a goose or other fowl such as
chicken which is stuffed with meat. There are also vegetarian forms as
well.

It is a quite common dish generally known throughout the Jewish culinary
world. It is not particular to Litvaks. You will find it in most Jewish
cookbooks.

Ann Rabinowitz
annrab@...