Date   
Photo's and postcard on Viewmate #general

abe simon <abe_simon@...>
 

Shalom all,
Today I have posted on Viewmate two photos and one postcard which I would
appreciate any help with. They are VM1711,1712,1713.

http://www.jewishgen.org/viewmate/ALL/source/vm1711.html
http://www.jewishgen.org/viewmate/ALL/source/vm1712.html
http://www.jewishgen.org/viewmate/ALL/source/vm1713.html

The 2nd and 3rd are the front and back of a photo postcard and message
sent >from my great uncle in Odessa to my mother in Buffalo, NY USA in
1931. The photo is of my great uncle, Benzion Brechman, his wife, and
their child. The first is I believe >from a posting of the Bik family
which I downloaded in June 2000. To me, the 3 people in the front row look
strikingly similar to the 3 on my photo card.
If anyone knows who originally posted this or can offer any other
help/recognition, I would appreciate it very much.

Abe Simon
Centennial, CO USA
Researching: FELMAN and BRECHMAN/BIKMAN/BRIKMAN Ukraine
SIMON(OWITZ) and BENDER/BINDER Minsk

Caution deciphering ship manifest: updated VM1690, GULNICK #general

Goulnik, Yves {PBC~Basel}
 

I wanted to thank all who offered help with my recent
Viewmate request to decipher a ship manifest extract.

One of the genners even went to the original manifest
and observed a very important point I had missed :
the pattern of entries in the "Whether going to. . ."
column is Name of the receiving person *above* the
dotted line, Address of the receiving person *below*
the dotted line.

The dotted lines show up more prominently than the
solid lines separating the row for each passenger as
a result of scanning, which is very confusing.

Because of this, I updated the Viewmate image on
http://www.jewishgen.org/ViewMate/ALL/source/vm1690.html

Can you help decipher the top red line :

?? Kriend/Friend VERHOWSKI/VERHOROSKI ??

thanks/Yves GOULNIK

Mulhouse (Alsace), France
yves.goulnik@...
http://goulniky.free.fr/

researching :
GULNIK / GULNICK / GOULNIK / GOLNIK / GOLNICK >from Ternovka then
Odessa, Ukraine; CHAPOCHNIK / CHLAPOCHNIK / SCHAPOSHNIK / SHLAPOSHNIK
PIKOWSKI

JewishGen Discussion Group #JewishGen Photo's and postcard on Viewmate #general

abe simon <abe_simon@...>
 

Shalom all,
Today I have posted on Viewmate two photos and one postcard which I would
appreciate any help with. They are VM1711,1712,1713.

http://www.jewishgen.org/viewmate/ALL/source/vm1711.html
http://www.jewishgen.org/viewmate/ALL/source/vm1712.html
http://www.jewishgen.org/viewmate/ALL/source/vm1713.html

The 2nd and 3rd are the front and back of a photo postcard and message
sent >from my great uncle in Odessa to my mother in Buffalo, NY USA in
1931. The photo is of my great uncle, Benzion Brechman, his wife, and
their child. The first is I believe >from a posting of the Bik family
which I downloaded in June 2000. To me, the 3 people in the front row look
strikingly similar to the 3 on my photo card.
If anyone knows who originally posted this or can offer any other
help/recognition, I would appreciate it very much.

Abe Simon
Centennial, CO USA
Researching: FELMAN and BRECHMAN/BIKMAN/BRIKMAN Ukraine
SIMON(OWITZ) and BENDER/BINDER Minsk

JewishGen Discussion Group #JewishGen Caution deciphering ship manifest: updated VM1690, GULNICK #general

Goulnik, Yves {PBC~Basel}
 

I wanted to thank all who offered help with my recent
Viewmate request to decipher a ship manifest extract.

One of the genners even went to the original manifest
and observed a very important point I had missed :
the pattern of entries in the "Whether going to. . ."
column is Name of the receiving person *above* the
dotted line, Address of the receiving person *below*
the dotted line.

The dotted lines show up more prominently than the
solid lines separating the row for each passenger as
a result of scanning, which is very confusing.

Because of this, I updated the Viewmate image on
http://www.jewishgen.org/ViewMate/ALL/source/vm1690.html

Can you help decipher the top red line :

?? Kriend/Friend VERHOWSKI/VERHOROSKI ??

thanks/Yves GOULNIK

Mulhouse (Alsace), France
yves.goulnik@...
http://goulniky.free.fr/

researching :
GULNIK / GULNICK / GOULNIK / GOLNIK / GOLNICK >from Ternovka then
Odessa, Ukraine; CHAPOCHNIK / CHLAPOCHNIK / SCHAPOSHNIK / SHLAPOSHNIK
PIKOWSKI

Re: EIDB #general

Arthur Hoffman <arthh@...>
 

I should like to second Ty's comments regarding the names of our ancestors
and how they appear in EIDB. They do not always appear as you would like
them to.

I spent countless hours looking for my mother's passenger manifest in EIDB.
She was five years old when she came to the USA in 1907 with her mother,
sister and brother. Her americanized name was Gertrude White. I eventually
found her in the EIDB under the name Gittel Coppersmith! How I finally made
the connection makes for a fascinating story, but I won't go into that here
except to say that it was Morse's search engine utility of being able to
list passengers by town >from the old country that provided the main lead for
me.

Arthur Hoffman
Hollywood, FL

Searching for WHITE, WAIT, Annapool, Ukraine; GOICHMANN, GOYKHMANN, HOFFMAN,
Golovanevsk, Ukraine.

----- Original Message -----
From: <HENKEN9@...>
Subject: [ukraine] EIDB
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Genners,

Just a brief rejoinder to Naomi Fatouros' et. al. discussion on the EIDB.
I
am pleased to read that with help she was able to find BELKOWSKY.
However, I
am always dismayed to read that researchers would expect the original
ship's
bursars and the LDS volunteers to have put as much precision and time into
the original work as the researchers would.

By the time the emigrants showed up at the ships in
England/Scotland,Belgium
or Germany, their original papers, possibly handwritten in cyrillic, may
have
been interpreted into two or three other languages and handled several
times.
And how well could the bursar's staff communicate with the passengers?
Were
the emigrants able to detect errors as their names were entered into the
manifests, or would they have cared?

Then there is the issue of handwriting and its interpretation. I have
related the story on the discussion group site before how my gm & gf,
traveling with another woman, used the name OMANZOW/OMANAZOW. They were
entered consecutively on the manifest, and read by the LDS volunteer as
ORUANZOW,OMANZOW, and OMAZAW. The handwriting of whoever entered them on
the
manifest was inconsistent enough to read them that way (the OMAZAW was
fairly
clear), although common sense would dictate that they were one family.
In
fact, they all appear on the typed detainee manifest as OMANZOW/OMANAZOW.
Had the LDS volunteer spent the time to do more investigation, there would
have been more accuracy.

But given the linguistic hurdles at the turn of the century and the sheer
enormity of the indexing project, I'm amazed at how much of the data base
is
useful at this stage. In this day and age where we expect a mountain of
data
to be available to us with the click of a mouse, a few key strokes and
spell
check, we may not fully appreciate the work place of 100 years ago.

Regards,

Ty Henken

Ukraine SIG #Ukraine Re: EIDB #ukraine

Arthur Hoffman <arthh@...>
 

I should like to second Ty's comments regarding the names of our ancestors
and how they appear in EIDB. They do not always appear as you would like
them to.

I spent countless hours looking for my mother's passenger manifest in EIDB.
She was five years old when she came to the USA in 1907 with her mother,
sister and brother. Her americanized name was Gertrude White. I eventually
found her in the EIDB under the name Gittel Coppersmith! How I finally made
the connection makes for a fascinating story, but I won't go into that here
except to say that it was Morse's search engine utility of being able to
list passengers by town >from the old country that provided the main lead for
me.

Arthur Hoffman
Hollywood, FL

Searching for WHITE, WAIT, Annapool, Ukraine; GOICHMANN, GOYKHMANN, HOFFMAN,
Golovanevsk, Ukraine.

----- Original Message -----
From: <HENKEN9@...>
Subject: [ukraine] EIDB
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Genners,

Just a brief rejoinder to Naomi Fatouros' et. al. discussion on the EIDB.
I
am pleased to read that with help she was able to find BELKOWSKY.
However, I
am always dismayed to read that researchers would expect the original
ship's
bursars and the LDS volunteers to have put as much precision and time into
the original work as the researchers would.

By the time the emigrants showed up at the ships in
England/Scotland,Belgium
or Germany, their original papers, possibly handwritten in cyrillic, may
have
been interpreted into two or three other languages and handled several
times.
And how well could the bursar's staff communicate with the passengers?
Were
the emigrants able to detect errors as their names were entered into the
manifests, or would they have cared?

Then there is the issue of handwriting and its interpretation. I have
related the story on the discussion group site before how my gm & gf,
traveling with another woman, used the name OMANZOW/OMANAZOW. They were
entered consecutively on the manifest, and read by the LDS volunteer as
ORUANZOW,OMANZOW, and OMAZAW. The handwriting of whoever entered them on
the
manifest was inconsistent enough to read them that way (the OMAZAW was
fairly
clear), although common sense would dictate that they were one family.
In
fact, they all appear on the typed detainee manifest as OMANZOW/OMANAZOW.
Had the LDS volunteer spent the time to do more investigation, there would
have been more accuracy.

But given the linguistic hurdles at the turn of the century and the sheer
enormity of the indexing project, I'm amazed at how much of the data base
is
useful at this stage. In this day and age where we expect a mountain of
data
to be available to us with the click of a mouse, a few key strokes and
spell
check, we may not fully appreciate the work place of 100 years ago.

Regards,

Ty Henken

INTRO - MEYER from Wiesbaden #germany

Tony Goring <tony.goring@...>
 

They had four known children: Ernest (1871961942, my wife's
grandfather), Adela, Ludwig, and Richard (187596?). Ernest and Richard
duly came to the UK, becoming naturalized British citizens in 1896 and
1899 respectively. Ernest stated on his naturalization application that
he was born in St Petersburg where his father was on business as a
merchant, but Richard gave his birthplace as the Wiesbaden address.

It would appear that the family was of some substance as UK
naturalization at the time was a process only available to the
comparatively wealthy.In 1997 I wrote (in German) to the Rathaus
at Wiesbaden seeking a birth certificate for Richard which I hoped
would lead to information about his parents and links further back.
I received a brief acknowledgement but nothing further, despite one
or two reminders, and temporarily gave up.

With more time available I would now like to resume the search.
It occurs to me that there may well be a Jewish resource in
Germany (perhaps for the State of Hesse Nassau) which would
prove more rewarding than the civil authorities at Wiesbaden.

If this is so could someone kindly point me in the right direction?

Tony Goring tony.goring@... London UK

German SIG #Germany INTRO - MEYER from Wiesbaden #germany

Tony Goring <tony.goring@...>
 

They had four known children: Ernest (1871961942, my wife's
grandfather), Adela, Ludwig, and Richard (187596?). Ernest and Richard
duly came to the UK, becoming naturalized British citizens in 1896 and
1899 respectively. Ernest stated on his naturalization application that
he was born in St Petersburg where his father was on business as a
merchant, but Richard gave his birthplace as the Wiesbaden address.

It would appear that the family was of some substance as UK
naturalization at the time was a process only available to the
comparatively wealthy.In 1997 I wrote (in German) to the Rathaus
at Wiesbaden seeking a birth certificate for Richard which I hoped
would lead to information about his parents and links further back.
I received a brief acknowledgement but nothing further, despite one
or two reminders, and temporarily gave up.

With more time available I would now like to resume the search.
It occurs to me that there may well be a Jewish resource in
Germany (perhaps for the State of Hesse Nassau) which would
prove more rewarding than the civil authorities at Wiesbaden.

If this is so could someone kindly point me in the right direction?

Tony Goring tony.goring@... London UK

Re: JUTA and Karl MARX #southafrica

KelAbraz@...
 

I believe that linguistic drift occurs between D and T. So, for example, in
the whole Indo-Aryan language group words related to 'tooth' usually start
with either D or T. Could Juta be a variant of Judah?

Kelvyn

South Africa SIG #SouthAfrica Re: JUTA and Karl MARX #southafrica

KelAbraz@...
 

I believe that linguistic drift occurs between D and T. So, for example, in
the whole Indo-Aryan language group words related to 'tooth' usually start
with either D or T. Could Juta be a variant of Judah?

Kelvyn

Kamenetz-Podilskiy Records #ukraine

Michelle Frager <lulu_brooks@...>
 

Someone recently asked on this list if they could check directly with
K-P regarding their ancestral research. According to Miriam Weiner,
the answer is Yes.

I believe her website is http://www.routestoroots.com , and the
listing of archival holdings around the former Russian Empire is
there. So is her entire book, which is also available for sale or
library rental in most cities, on searching Jewish roots in Ukraine
and Moldova.

My Podolia ancestors have records in two or three archives, because
of the separation of local/gubernia functions.

The researcher would do very well to check this invaluable resource.

Michelle Frager, NYC

UKRAINE:
= TREGER/FRAGER, SIROTA, ZEKTSER, SHWAISBERG, BASSUK, FUCHS
BELARUS-BOBRUISK:
= WOLFSON, LIFISHITS, FRAKT, DINABURSKY, SHAPIRO

MODERATOR'S NOTE: Important addendum to information about "JEWISH ROOTS in UKRAINE & MOLDOVA" - Miriam's Weiner's excellent reference book will no longer be printed. At the moment, there are probably fewer than 50 available for sale. For those who are interested in possessing a copy, the ** JEWISHGEN MALL is selling this book, and proceeds help support the upkeep of our websites and databases. Check http://www.jewishgenmall.org/
There is a 10% discount on all purchases until midnight in Houston, August 15th.

Ukraine SIG #Ukraine Kamenetz-Podilskiy Records #ukraine

Michelle Frager <lulu_brooks@...>
 

Someone recently asked on this list if they could check directly with
K-P regarding their ancestral research. According to Miriam Weiner,
the answer is Yes.

I believe her website is http://www.routestoroots.com , and the
listing of archival holdings around the former Russian Empire is
there. So is her entire book, which is also available for sale or
library rental in most cities, on searching Jewish roots in Ukraine
and Moldova.

My Podolia ancestors have records in two or three archives, because
of the separation of local/gubernia functions.

The researcher would do very well to check this invaluable resource.

Michelle Frager, NYC

UKRAINE:
= TREGER/FRAGER, SIROTA, ZEKTSER, SHWAISBERG, BASSUK, FUCHS
BELARUS-BOBRUISK:
= WOLFSON, LIFISHITS, FRAKT, DINABURSKY, SHAPIRO

MODERATOR'S NOTE: Important addendum to information about "JEWISH ROOTS in UKRAINE & MOLDOVA" - Miriam's Weiner's excellent reference book will no longer be printed. At the moment, there are probably fewer than 50 available for sale. For those who are interested in possessing a copy, the ** JEWISHGEN MALL is selling this book, and proceeds help support the upkeep of our websites and databases. Check http://www.jewishgenmall.org/
There is a 10% discount on all purchases until midnight in Houston, August 15th.

Vital certificates in Odessa #general

Eve Line Blum <eve.line.blum@...>
 

Is it possible to obtain a birth certificate in Odessa, and how ?
--
Eve Line Blum-Cherchevsky
Besancon (France)
and also
Cercle de Genealogie Juive (International JGS in Paris)
http://www.genealoj.org

Re: Canadian Immigration/St. Alban's List Question #general

sallybru <sallybru@...>
 

I recently learned that there are separate rolls of Buffalo immigration at
NARA, so they may be listed there. I have an URL for the exact page in the
Jewishgen Archives.

However, until recently border crossings were very relaxed in the Niagara
Frontier, so the family (or part of it) may not have been listed at all.
When I was in high school, we taught foreign exchange students to say
'Buffalo' without an accent so we could bike or drive to the beach or
wherever without the fuss of passports. I can imagine 30-40 years earlier,
there might have been less trouble.

The thing I would wonder about is that in the late 20's immigration to the
US was pretty restricted. People had trouble getting papers to immigrate if
they came >from eastern Europe. Canadians came freely. If the family had
been in Canada for a while (and perhaps were Canadian citizens), they might
have come over with no problem or as tourists-and just stayed.

And finally, in doing your search, please remember to check various
alternate spellings/soundexes and dates. If, for example 1930 is on a
different roll, you might be off a year and looking at 1929 having been
given a wrong date.

Sally Bruckheimer
Albany, NY

JewishGen Discussion Group #JewishGen Vital certificates in Odessa #general

Eve Line Blum <eve.line.blum@...>
 

Is it possible to obtain a birth certificate in Odessa, and how ?
--
Eve Line Blum-Cherchevsky
Besancon (France)
and also
Cercle de Genealogie Juive (International JGS in Paris)
http://www.genealoj.org

JewishGen Discussion Group #JewishGen Re: Canadian Immigration/St. Alban's List Question #general

sallybru <sallybru@...>
 

I recently learned that there are separate rolls of Buffalo immigration at
NARA, so they may be listed there. I have an URL for the exact page in the
Jewishgen Archives.

However, until recently border crossings were very relaxed in the Niagara
Frontier, so the family (or part of it) may not have been listed at all.
When I was in high school, we taught foreign exchange students to say
'Buffalo' without an accent so we could bike or drive to the beach or
wherever without the fuss of passports. I can imagine 30-40 years earlier,
there might have been less trouble.

The thing I would wonder about is that in the late 20's immigration to the
US was pretty restricted. People had trouble getting papers to immigrate if
they came >from eastern Europe. Canadians came freely. If the family had
been in Canada for a while (and perhaps were Canadian citizens), they might
have come over with no problem or as tourists-and just stayed.

And finally, in doing your search, please remember to check various
alternate spellings/soundexes and dates. If, for example 1930 is on a
different roll, you might be off a year and looking at 1929 having been
given a wrong date.

Sally Bruckheimer
Albany, NY

EIDB #ukraine

HENKEN9@...
 

Genners,

Just a brief rejoinder to Naomi Fatouros' et. al. discussion on the EIDB. I
am pleased to read that with help she was able to find BELKOWSKY. However, I
am always dismayed to read that researchers would expect the original ship's
bursars and the LDS volunteers to have put as much precision and time into
the original work as the researchers would.

By the time the emigrants showed up at the ships in England/Scotland,Belgium
or Germany, their original papers, possibly handwritten in cyrillic, may have
been interpreted into two or three other languages and handled several times.
And how well could the bursar's staff communicate with the passengers? Were
the emigrants able to detect errors as their names were entered into the
manifests, or would they have cared?

Then there is the issue of handwriting and its interpretation. I have
related the story on the discussion group site before how my gm & gf,
traveling with another woman, used the name OMANZOW/OMANAZOW. They were
entered consecutively on the manifest, and read by the LDS volunteer as
ORUANZOW,OMANZOW, and OMAZAW. The handwriting of whoever entered them on the
manifest was inconsistent enough to read them that way (the OMAZAW was fairly
clear), although common sense would dictate that they were one family. In
fact, they all appear on the typed detainee manifest as OMANZOW/OMANAZOW.
Had the LDS volunteer spent the time to do more investigation, there would
have been more accuracy.

But given the linguistic hurdles at the turn of the century and the sheer
enormity of the indexing project, I'm amazed at how much of the data base is
useful at this stage. In this day and age where we expect a mountain of data
to be available to us with the click of a mouse, a few key strokes and spell
check, we may not fully appreciate the work place of 100 years ago.

Regards,

Ty Henken
Centennial, Colo.
Henken9@...

Ukraine SIG #Ukraine EIDB #ukraine

HENKEN9@...
 

Genners,

Just a brief rejoinder to Naomi Fatouros' et. al. discussion on the EIDB. I
am pleased to read that with help she was able to find BELKOWSKY. However, I
am always dismayed to read that researchers would expect the original ship's
bursars and the LDS volunteers to have put as much precision and time into
the original work as the researchers would.

By the time the emigrants showed up at the ships in England/Scotland,Belgium
or Germany, their original papers, possibly handwritten in cyrillic, may have
been interpreted into two or three other languages and handled several times.
And how well could the bursar's staff communicate with the passengers? Were
the emigrants able to detect errors as their names were entered into the
manifests, or would they have cared?

Then there is the issue of handwriting and its interpretation. I have
related the story on the discussion group site before how my gm & gf,
traveling with another woman, used the name OMANZOW/OMANAZOW. They were
entered consecutively on the manifest, and read by the LDS volunteer as
ORUANZOW,OMANZOW, and OMAZAW. The handwriting of whoever entered them on the
manifest was inconsistent enough to read them that way (the OMAZAW was fairly
clear), although common sense would dictate that they were one family. In
fact, they all appear on the typed detainee manifest as OMANZOW/OMANAZOW.
Had the LDS volunteer spent the time to do more investigation, there would
have been more accuracy.

But given the linguistic hurdles at the turn of the century and the sheer
enormity of the indexing project, I'm amazed at how much of the data base is
useful at this stage. In this day and age where we expect a mountain of data
to be available to us with the click of a mouse, a few key strokes and spell
check, we may not fully appreciate the work place of 100 years ago.

Regards,

Ty Henken
Centennial, Colo.
Henken9@...

HOIR / RODRIGUES-HENRIQUES #france

Georges Graner
 

According to one of my sources, Moise Chevalier RODRIGUES-HENRIQUES, from
Bordeaux, (18.3.1772-5.11.1850) had with Rebecca HOIR a daughter
Anne-Victoire, born in 1796. This is quite surprising because up to now, he
was only known to have had a wife, Ester GEORGE and a mistress Gracieuse
LABORDE. Have you any piece of information on this Rebecca HOIR and her
daughter ? Thank you in advance.

Georges GRANER (France)
Georges GRANER (Georges.Graner@...)
Member of the board of the Cercle de Genealogie Juive
in charge of the site (www.genealoj.org)

French SIG #France HOIR / RODRIGUES-HENRIQUES #france

Georges Graner
 

According to one of my sources, Moise Chevalier RODRIGUES-HENRIQUES, from
Bordeaux, (18.3.1772-5.11.1850) had with Rebecca HOIR a daughter
Anne-Victoire, born in 1796. This is quite surprising because up to now, he
was only known to have had a wife, Ester GEORGE and a mistress Gracieuse
LABORDE. Have you any piece of information on this Rebecca HOIR and her
daughter ? Thank you in advance.

Georges GRANER (France)
Georges GRANER (Georges.Graner@...)
Member of the board of the Cercle de Genealogie Juive
in charge of the site (www.genealoj.org)