Date   

LIST RULES - Signing your messages #germany

GerSig@...
 

YOU MUST SIGN YOUR POST: All messages must be signed as follows:

Full Name + USA city of residence + state of residence or

Full Name & non-USA city of residence + nation of residence.

N O T E: NOTE: NOTE: NOTE:

Do not include full mailing address, telephone or fax numbers or
company name in your signature. This is to prevent our list >from being
attractive to and used by companies or individuals who wish to collect
such information for commercial purposes.

-------

from the GerSig Welcome Letter


German SIG #Germany LIST RULES - Signing your messages #germany

GerSig@...
 

YOU MUST SIGN YOUR POST: All messages must be signed as follows:

Full Name + USA city of residence + state of residence or

Full Name & non-USA city of residence + nation of residence.

N O T E: NOTE: NOTE: NOTE:

Do not include full mailing address, telephone or fax numbers or
company name in your signature. This is to prevent our list >from being
attractive to and used by companies or individuals who wish to collect
such information for commercial purposes.

-------

from the GerSig Welcome Letter


Name Convention #germany

Herbert J.Burgauer <herburgauer@...>
 

I would be interested in hearing >from other Gersig members about
how they handle the entry of partial names in Genealogy software.

Examples: Last name known but not first name
First name known but not last name
Married name of wife known but not maiden name

Please respond privately. Thank you!

Herbert J. Burgauer herburgauer@...

MODERATOR NOTES: 1. Jewishgen and GerSig rules require messages to be
signed with the city and state of residence of the sender.

2. We would appreciate it if Mr. Burgauer would send a summary of the
replies he receives to this interesting question for posting to this
forum.


German SIG #Germany Name Convention #germany

Herbert J.Burgauer <herburgauer@...>
 

I would be interested in hearing >from other Gersig members about
how they handle the entry of partial names in Genealogy software.

Examples: Last name known but not first name
First name known but not last name
Married name of wife known but not maiden name

Please respond privately. Thank you!

Herbert J. Burgauer herburgauer@...

MODERATOR NOTES: 1. Jewishgen and GerSig rules require messages to be
signed with the city and state of residence of the sender.

2. We would appreciate it if Mr. Burgauer would send a summary of the
replies he receives to this interesting question for posting to this
forum.


Re: Jewish Migrations (more) #germany

MBernet@...
 

In a message dated 8/19/2002 "I am looking for information on movement
from Czechoslovakia to Switzerland in the 15th century or before."
==Here's more on Jewish migration in Europe over the centuries:

1. Jews were frequently expelled en-masse >from their villages, cities and
countries of birth by threats of death or forced conversion. There was a
grapevine of information through which they were able to learn where there
might be a bishop or a princeling who would give sanctuary to fleeing
Jews, or an underdeveloped area where anti-semitism had not yet become
virulent or was temporarily dormant.

2. Well into the 19th century there were laws that contolled the economic
lives of Jews. They were not allowed to own farmland, or to engage in many
trades or occupations. Young Jews would migrate to find locations where
they might earn a livelihood.

3. Well into the 19th century there were laws that contolled the social
lives of Jews. Frequently, only one son in each family was allowed to
marry and set up a home. Second and third sons would have to migrate to
find a location where they could take a wife and raise a family.

4. The wide dispersal of Jewish families throughout Europe (and
throughout the world) gave them opportunities to engage in international
trade using family members as links in the trade. This encouraged travel
and migration.

5. Rabbis and scholars often traveled long distances to take up positions
in distant cities and countries.

Michael Bernet, New York <mBernet@...>


German SIG #Germany Re: Jewish Migrations (more) #germany

MBernet@...
 

In a message dated 8/19/2002 "I am looking for information on movement
from Czechoslovakia to Switzerland in the 15th century or before."
==Here's more on Jewish migration in Europe over the centuries:

1. Jews were frequently expelled en-masse >from their villages, cities and
countries of birth by threats of death or forced conversion. There was a
grapevine of information through which they were able to learn where there
might be a bishop or a princeling who would give sanctuary to fleeing
Jews, or an underdeveloped area where anti-semitism had not yet become
virulent or was temporarily dormant.

2. Well into the 19th century there were laws that contolled the economic
lives of Jews. They were not allowed to own farmland, or to engage in many
trades or occupations. Young Jews would migrate to find locations where
they might earn a livelihood.

3. Well into the 19th century there were laws that contolled the social
lives of Jews. Frequently, only one son in each family was allowed to
marry and set up a home. Second and third sons would have to migrate to
find a location where they could take a wife and raise a family.

4. The wide dispersal of Jewish families throughout Europe (and
throughout the world) gave them opportunities to engage in international
trade using family members as links in the trade. This encouraged travel
and migration.

5. Rabbis and scholars often traveled long distances to take up positions
in distant cities and countries.

Michael Bernet, New York <mBernet@...>


Re: Migration from Bohemia to Switzerland #germany

MBernet@...
 

In a message dated 8/19/2002 jasprung2@... writes:

"I have records of the family in Switzerland under the Sprunger name until
the early 1500s. A spelling variation may have been Sprunner in 1491. My
family emigrated >from Switzerland to the US in 1852. As a boy, however,
I was told the family came >from Czechoslovakia. I have a DNA match, two
mutation steps back, with an Ashkenazi-Cohen >from Czechoslovakia. I have
no records indicating a Jewish heritage other than some surnames common to both Jewish and gentile families."

==You probably mean >from Bohemia. Czechoslovakia existed only >from ca 1919 to ca 1939, and >from 1945 to ca 1990.

==Very few Jews in German-speaking Europe had family names in the early
16th century. The names you mention are unlikely to have been those of
Jews at that time. I'm not sure how much to trust those DNA matches; I've
heard some weird stories and have been told that DNA is matched at only a
relatively small number of points. You and the Ashkenazi Cohen from
Czechoslovakia may have to go back many, many generations to find common
ancestry. Most of the Jewish records in that area were destroyed or lost
during the Thirty Years War.

==There was relatively much migration of Jews >from the 11th century on,
from south of the Alps to north of the Alps and vice versa. Switzerland
was one of several routes for this migration. Merchants and scholars also
used these routes.

Michael Bernet, New York, mBernet@...


German SIG #Germany Re: Migration from Bohemia to Switzerland #germany

MBernet@...
 

In a message dated 8/19/2002 jasprung2@... writes:

"I have records of the family in Switzerland under the Sprunger name until
the early 1500s. A spelling variation may have been Sprunner in 1491. My
family emigrated >from Switzerland to the US in 1852. As a boy, however,
I was told the family came >from Czechoslovakia. I have a DNA match, two
mutation steps back, with an Ashkenazi-Cohen >from Czechoslovakia. I have
no records indicating a Jewish heritage other than some surnames common to both Jewish and gentile families."

==You probably mean >from Bohemia. Czechoslovakia existed only >from ca 1919 to ca 1939, and >from 1945 to ca 1990.

==Very few Jews in German-speaking Europe had family names in the early
16th century. The names you mention are unlikely to have been those of
Jews at that time. I'm not sure how much to trust those DNA matches; I've
heard some weird stories and have been told that DNA is matched at only a
relatively small number of points. You and the Ashkenazi Cohen from
Czechoslovakia may have to go back many, many generations to find common
ancestry. Most of the Jewish records in that area were destroyed or lost
during the Thirty Years War.

==There was relatively much migration of Jews >from the 11th century on,
from south of the Alps to north of the Alps and vice versa. Switzerland
was one of several routes for this migration. Merchants and scholars also
used these routes.

Michael Bernet, New York, mBernet@...


Ukrainian translation #general

R Gerber <beccamd@...>
 

I have retyped a letter I received >from the Ukrainian Archives into a
Microsoft Word file. If you can help me, please respond privately,
and I will email you the file.

Thanks,

--
Rebecca Gerber
Glenview, IL USA

Researching:
KLAYMAN: Teofipol (Chaun), Ukraine (Volhyn gub.)
ZINKOWETSKY, REZNIK, FINKELSZTEIN: Starokonstantinov uezd, Ukraine
SARBENIK: Rashkov, Moldova (Soroki district)
BLUMOS, BLUMES, BLURRIS, BLUMOS: Rashkov, Ukraine (Bessarabia)


JewishGen Discussion Group #JewishGen Ukrainian translation #general

R Gerber <beccamd@...>
 

I have retyped a letter I received >from the Ukrainian Archives into a
Microsoft Word file. If you can help me, please respond privately,
and I will email you the file.

Thanks,

--
Rebecca Gerber
Glenview, IL USA

Researching:
KLAYMAN: Teofipol (Chaun), Ukraine (Volhyn gub.)
ZINKOWETSKY, REZNIK, FINKELSZTEIN: Starokonstantinov uezd, Ukraine
SARBENIK: Rashkov, Moldova (Soroki district)
BLUMOS, BLUMES, BLURRIS, BLUMOS: Rashkov, Ukraine (Bessarabia)


Three Malka FINKEL'SZTEINs with the same year of birth, all all married to KRONMANs #general

Martin Kronman <mkronman@...>
 

Dear Geners

I have a problem that I want your opinion about: Some time ago I found
two occurances of Malka Finkel'sztein married to two different KRONMAN's
in Zdunska Wola:

1. birth of a son, Chenich in 1872 to Malka Finkel'sztein (year of
birth 1852) and Simeon Kronman (1852) in Zdunska Wola.

2. birth of a son, Benjamin in 1870 to Malka Finkel'sztein (year of
birth 1850) and Motlyan Kronman (1850) in Zdunska Wola.

subsequently I have found two branches of the Kronman family steming from
Benjamin and Chenich respectively.

I don't have a problem with this; I assume that either Motlyan or Simeon
died prior or some time after the birth of their sons and Malka married the
other one. My guess is that Motlyan and Simeon were brothers (common
practice I know for a widow to marry her brother in law), I lean toward
Motlyan as having died first.

More recently I turned up a third Malka record >from Zdunska Wola

3. marriage of a son Majlch in 1894 (his date of birth 1870) to Malka
Finkel'sztein (est year of birth 1847) and Zelman Kronman (est year of
birth 1847)

The Malka looks like the same person who married Simeon and Motlyan. Did
she marry three distinct husbands? I doubt it. I could only conclude that
Zelman must be either Simeon or Motlyan with perhaps in one case a middle
given name was used and in another the first given name: example Simeon
Zelman Kronman ; Zelman Simeon Kronman. The given name web site doesnt
show any link of the Simeon to the Zelman name. I can't imagine that
Zelman or Simeon are linked to Motlyan. What is your view of this? Do you
thingkit might be a case of double names as I gave in the example?

I just can't imagine distinct different Malka's having the same year of
birth, nor do three distinct husbands seem likely. I would appreciate your
view of this problem.

with warm regards

Martin J. Kronman
Syracuse, NY

Researching: KRONMAN in Kolo, Konin,
Tuliskow, Warta, Slupca, Kalisz, Zdunska Wola
and Lodz, Poland ;Ukraine; Hungary; United States


Re: What Name is "Lilka" a diminutive of? #general

Prof. G. L. Esterson <jerry@...>
 

Alan Glixman of Australia posted as follows:

"I have a Polish female relative whose first name I know as "Lilka".

Would anyone know what name Lilka might be a diminutive of?"

The Yiddish diminutive name Lilke derives >from the German secular name
Lili. The German name Lili was adopted by a number of Jews in Germany as
the name they used in contacts with non-Jewish Germans. This is one of
about 500 such names used by German Jews during the 19th century. The name
Lili was accepted by the German rabbis as a name to be used as a legal
secular kinui for any Hebrew name that a woman might have had. So for a
woman with the Hebrew name Leya, and using the German secular name Lili,
the name would have appeared in a Get as follows: Leya hamechuna Lili.

These German names were popular among Jews and spread rapidly during the
19th century to Poland and Hungary, and were used there also. The Polish
and Hungarian Jews substituted some local secular names for the German
names in a few cases.

These German, Polish, and Hungarian secular names can be found in the
JewishGen Given Names Data Bases web site at
http://www.jewishgen.org/databases/GivenNames/search.htm .

Prof. G. L. Esterson, Ra'anana, Israel


JewishGen Discussion Group #JewishGen Three Malka FINKEL'SZTEINs with the same year of birth, all all married to KRONMANs #general

Martin Kronman <mkronman@...>
 

Dear Geners

I have a problem that I want your opinion about: Some time ago I found
two occurances of Malka Finkel'sztein married to two different KRONMAN's
in Zdunska Wola:

1. birth of a son, Chenich in 1872 to Malka Finkel'sztein (year of
birth 1852) and Simeon Kronman (1852) in Zdunska Wola.

2. birth of a son, Benjamin in 1870 to Malka Finkel'sztein (year of
birth 1850) and Motlyan Kronman (1850) in Zdunska Wola.

subsequently I have found two branches of the Kronman family steming from
Benjamin and Chenich respectively.

I don't have a problem with this; I assume that either Motlyan or Simeon
died prior or some time after the birth of their sons and Malka married the
other one. My guess is that Motlyan and Simeon were brothers (common
practice I know for a widow to marry her brother in law), I lean toward
Motlyan as having died first.

More recently I turned up a third Malka record >from Zdunska Wola

3. marriage of a son Majlch in 1894 (his date of birth 1870) to Malka
Finkel'sztein (est year of birth 1847) and Zelman Kronman (est year of
birth 1847)

The Malka looks like the same person who married Simeon and Motlyan. Did
she marry three distinct husbands? I doubt it. I could only conclude that
Zelman must be either Simeon or Motlyan with perhaps in one case a middle
given name was used and in another the first given name: example Simeon
Zelman Kronman ; Zelman Simeon Kronman. The given name web site doesnt
show any link of the Simeon to the Zelman name. I can't imagine that
Zelman or Simeon are linked to Motlyan. What is your view of this? Do you
thingkit might be a case of double names as I gave in the example?

I just can't imagine distinct different Malka's having the same year of
birth, nor do three distinct husbands seem likely. I would appreciate your
view of this problem.

with warm regards

Martin J. Kronman
Syracuse, NY

Researching: KRONMAN in Kolo, Konin,
Tuliskow, Warta, Slupca, Kalisz, Zdunska Wola
and Lodz, Poland ;Ukraine; Hungary; United States


JewishGen Discussion Group #JewishGen Re: What Name is "Lilka" a diminutive of? #general

Prof. G. L. Esterson <jerry@...>
 

Alan Glixman of Australia posted as follows:

"I have a Polish female relative whose first name I know as "Lilka".

Would anyone know what name Lilka might be a diminutive of?"

The Yiddish diminutive name Lilke derives >from the German secular name
Lili. The German name Lili was adopted by a number of Jews in Germany as
the name they used in contacts with non-Jewish Germans. This is one of
about 500 such names used by German Jews during the 19th century. The name
Lili was accepted by the German rabbis as a name to be used as a legal
secular kinui for any Hebrew name that a woman might have had. So for a
woman with the Hebrew name Leya, and using the German secular name Lili,
the name would have appeared in a Get as follows: Leya hamechuna Lili.

These German names were popular among Jews and spread rapidly during the
19th century to Poland and Hungary, and were used there also. The Polish
and Hungarian Jews substituted some local secular names for the German
names in a few cases.

These German, Polish, and Hungarian secular names can be found in the
JewishGen Given Names Data Bases web site at
http://www.jewishgen.org/databases/GivenNames/search.htm .

Prof. G. L. Esterson, Ra'anana, Israel


Re: Podolia region #ukraine

Michelle Frager <lulu_brooks@...>
 

Dear Alexander and List:

Thank you, Alexander, for your offer. Could you give us a little more
information on your connection with Podolia? And your family search
perhaps?

Best,
Michelle Frager, NYC

--- Kolker Alexander <kolker_a@...> wrote:

Hi !

I will glad to introduce with anyone tha doing researching for
Podolia
region

Best Regards Kolker Alexander
kolker_a@...


Ukraine SIG #Ukraine Re: Podolia region #ukraine

Michelle Frager <lulu_brooks@...>
 

Dear Alexander and List:

Thank you, Alexander, for your offer. Could you give us a little more
information on your connection with Podolia? And your family search
perhaps?

Best,
Michelle Frager, NYC

--- Kolker Alexander <kolker_a@...> wrote:

Hi !

I will glad to introduce with anyone tha doing researching for
Podolia
region

Best Regards Kolker Alexander
kolker_a@...


Re: Chortakov Chassidim #rabbinic

Yoni Ben-Ari <yonatan@...>
 

On 2002.06.27, Avraham Heschel <bict@...> wrote:

Remarkably, many of the descendants of the Chortkover Chasidim have
remained loyal to this group, despite it's having been leaderless
for more than four decades. In the early 1990s followers in Israel
began rallying around two regal and charismatic grandsons of R' Dov
Ber, [...] the two brothers [...] refused to accept the title of
Rebbe. [...]
In the mid 1990s a new Chortkover Shtibel was founded in Antwerp,
Belgium, which in addition to a Shtibel in Jerusalem, remain the
only remnants of a movement of tens of thousands.
Dear Group,

Recently we spent Shabbat in Tzfat. While walking through the old
city, there I passed a building which said on it Bet Midrash
dwchassidei Chortkov. I expectedlly was very excited and asked
around the neighborhood who was responsible for/gabai of the shul.
I was told that they daven there on Shabbat but not daily and given
the name of the gabai, a Meir Mendelson.

After calling and introducing myself as a greatgrandson of a
Chortoker Chosid who had lived in Tveria, I was forwarded to the
gabai of the Chortokov Shtibel in Jerusalem, who confirmed that my
grandmother's brother, David SCHECHTER of Jerusalem and father of
the present world head of Breslov (?) Reb' Yaacov Meir SCHECHTER,
was a staunch Chortokover chosid.

Since you mentioned that one of the previous Rebbes moved to Austria
I am wondering if my greatgrandfather's brother, who I heard moved
to Vienna at some point in the late 19th early 20th was following
his Rebbe (I have no idea when he went to Vienna).

Thank you for the information and if you learn anything else I would
appreciate hearing .

Ktiva Vechatima Tova to one and all

Yoni Ben-Ari, Jerusalem/Efrat


Rabbinic Genealogy SIG #Rabbinic Re: Chortakov Chassidim #rabbinic

Yoni Ben-Ari <yonatan@...>
 

On 2002.06.27, Avraham Heschel <bict@...> wrote:

Remarkably, many of the descendants of the Chortkover Chasidim have
remained loyal to this group, despite it's having been leaderless
for more than four decades. In the early 1990s followers in Israel
began rallying around two regal and charismatic grandsons of R' Dov
Ber, [...] the two brothers [...] refused to accept the title of
Rebbe. [...]
In the mid 1990s a new Chortkover Shtibel was founded in Antwerp,
Belgium, which in addition to a Shtibel in Jerusalem, remain the
only remnants of a movement of tens of thousands.
Dear Group,

Recently we spent Shabbat in Tzfat. While walking through the old
city, there I passed a building which said on it Bet Midrash
dwchassidei Chortkov. I expectedlly was very excited and asked
around the neighborhood who was responsible for/gabai of the shul.
I was told that they daven there on Shabbat but not daily and given
the name of the gabai, a Meir Mendelson.

After calling and introducing myself as a greatgrandson of a
Chortoker Chosid who had lived in Tveria, I was forwarded to the
gabai of the Chortokov Shtibel in Jerusalem, who confirmed that my
grandmother's brother, David SCHECHTER of Jerusalem and father of
the present world head of Breslov (?) Reb' Yaacov Meir SCHECHTER,
was a staunch Chortokover chosid.

Since you mentioned that one of the previous Rebbes moved to Austria
I am wondering if my greatgrandfather's brother, who I heard moved
to Vienna at some point in the late 19th early 20th was following
his Rebbe (I have no idea when he went to Vienna).

Thank you for the information and if you learn anything else I would
appreciate hearing .

Ktiva Vechatima Tova to one and all

Yoni Ben-Ari, Jerusalem/Efrat


Podolia region #ukraine

Kolker Alexander <kolker_a@...>
 

Hi !

I will glad to introduce with anyone tha doing researching for Podolia
region

Best Regards Kolker Alexander
kolker_a@...

MODERATOR'S NOTE:
Please remember to send all messages in PLAIN TEXT only!!


Ukraine SIG #Ukraine Podolia region #ukraine

Kolker Alexander <kolker_a@...>
 

Hi !

I will glad to introduce with anyone tha doing researching for Podolia
region

Best Regards Kolker Alexander
kolker_a@...

MODERATOR'S NOTE:
Please remember to send all messages in PLAIN TEXT only!!