Date   

Re: Destruction of genealogical records in the temple #general

MBernet@...
 

In a message dated 7/30/2002 6:21:51 PM Eastern Daylight Time, James M.
Harbert II [receptionist@...] had written:

<< I once heard a speaker say that the Israelites of long ago kept their
genealogical records in the temple at Jerusalem. He said these records were
destroyed when the Roman army destroyed the temple in 70 A. D. How far back
do our oldest gealogical records for Israelites now go? Do records exist that
allow a person to trace their ancestors back to Abraham, the father of the
Jews?

to which Sally Bruckheimer (with a claim *I know I will get lots of hate mail
for this*) responded

*In trying to go back to the temple in Jerusalem, a big problem is that no
one had birth certificates in
the middle ages.*

That's true, of course, for the Middle Ages. It is equally true that the
book of Chronicles 1 devotes it first 9 chapters to the genealogy of Adam and
his Israelite descendants. During the Second Temple period. there was special
section in the Temple precincts that could be termed an ancestor of Salt Lake
City: there were kept the recods of Kohanim (the priestly clan), and a board
of priests met regulalry to review the claims of kohanim to their status and
to various hereditary privileges (Kohanic descent is through the father; if
the son's mother had been a divorcee or a convert or a dissolute woman, the
son loses his status).

These genealogical records applied only to the Kohanim. The Levites, who had
lesser religious functions, also kept their own records, and individual
families no doubt compiled their own records--as we do now. There were,
however, no central registry offices.

When the Temple was destroyed by the Romans in 70 CE, there were, to the best
of my knowledge, neither microfilm, Xerox machines nor digital memories. It
must be assumed therefore that the genealogy of the kohanim went up in flames
with the entire Temple.

Ms Bruckheimer continues
*It may certainly be that we are all descended >from Rashi, but we cannot
prove it (M. Bernet discovered that it is likely
we are all of us descended >from any person in the middle ages or before-if
any of us are).*
==I think I ought to argue that point. I have no idea as to the likelihood
of whether I am descended >from anyone born in *the middle ages or before.* I
do know that I am a Levite, and that my earliest known ancestor in the direct
male line, Naftali Hirsch (b. ca 1620) was also a Levite, and I know that I
am a descendant of Levi son of Jacob, son of Isaac, son of Abraham, and can
trace my ancestry all the way back to Adam, but whether I had any encestors
at all in the Middle ages remains a mystery.

With all that, I think it is proper to reassure Ms Bruckheimer that any mail
she receives on this topic is unlikely to be tainted by *hate.* At most,
other may dispute some very minor points.

Michael Bernet,
New York


Vatican Judaica #general

Dov & Varda <yknow@...>
 

I tried to respond privately to Henny Roth's posting but her server rejected
my address.

It must have been quite exciting to have worked on the Vatican Judaica
exhibit. I, for one, would love to know about the items in that catalogue.

My guess is that as exciting and interesting as the exhibit must have been,
it would not have included loot >from the Temple. If the rumours I've heard
about the aforementioned loot are true, this would not be something the
Vatican would publicize or exhibit. Loot would have included genealogies, if
these were supposed to have been housed in the Temple.

Varda Epstein
Metzad


Harry SILVERMAN #general

Josh Brown <gettysburg63@...>
 

B"H

Hello:

Does anyone have a Harry SILVERMAN in their family tree who was living in
San Francisco, CA in 1910? We have a picture of my g.grandfather with his
best friend, Harry Silverman, that was taken in San Francisco in 1910. I
would be glad to copy this picture and send it to any relatives.

Thanks,
Josh Brown


JewishGen Discussion Group #JewishGen Re: Destruction of genealogical records in the temple #general

MBernet@...
 

In a message dated 7/30/2002 6:21:51 PM Eastern Daylight Time, James M.
Harbert II [receptionist@...] had written:

<< I once heard a speaker say that the Israelites of long ago kept their
genealogical records in the temple at Jerusalem. He said these records were
destroyed when the Roman army destroyed the temple in 70 A. D. How far back
do our oldest gealogical records for Israelites now go? Do records exist that
allow a person to trace their ancestors back to Abraham, the father of the
Jews?

to which Sally Bruckheimer (with a claim *I know I will get lots of hate mail
for this*) responded

*In trying to go back to the temple in Jerusalem, a big problem is that no
one had birth certificates in
the middle ages.*

That's true, of course, for the Middle Ages. It is equally true that the
book of Chronicles 1 devotes it first 9 chapters to the genealogy of Adam and
his Israelite descendants. During the Second Temple period. there was special
section in the Temple precincts that could be termed an ancestor of Salt Lake
City: there were kept the recods of Kohanim (the priestly clan), and a board
of priests met regulalry to review the claims of kohanim to their status and
to various hereditary privileges (Kohanic descent is through the father; if
the son's mother had been a divorcee or a convert or a dissolute woman, the
son loses his status).

These genealogical records applied only to the Kohanim. The Levites, who had
lesser religious functions, also kept their own records, and individual
families no doubt compiled their own records--as we do now. There were,
however, no central registry offices.

When the Temple was destroyed by the Romans in 70 CE, there were, to the best
of my knowledge, neither microfilm, Xerox machines nor digital memories. It
must be assumed therefore that the genealogy of the kohanim went up in flames
with the entire Temple.

Ms Bruckheimer continues
*It may certainly be that we are all descended >from Rashi, but we cannot
prove it (M. Bernet discovered that it is likely
we are all of us descended >from any person in the middle ages or before-if
any of us are).*
==I think I ought to argue that point. I have no idea as to the likelihood
of whether I am descended >from anyone born in *the middle ages or before.* I
do know that I am a Levite, and that my earliest known ancestor in the direct
male line, Naftali Hirsch (b. ca 1620) was also a Levite, and I know that I
am a descendant of Levi son of Jacob, son of Isaac, son of Abraham, and can
trace my ancestry all the way back to Adam, but whether I had any encestors
at all in the Middle ages remains a mystery.

With all that, I think it is proper to reassure Ms Bruckheimer that any mail
she receives on this topic is unlikely to be tainted by *hate.* At most,
other may dispute some very minor points.

Michael Bernet,
New York


JewishGen Discussion Group #JewishGen Vatican Judaica #general

Dov & Varda <yknow@...>
 

I tried to respond privately to Henny Roth's posting but her server rejected
my address.

It must have been quite exciting to have worked on the Vatican Judaica
exhibit. I, for one, would love to know about the items in that catalogue.

My guess is that as exciting and interesting as the exhibit must have been,
it would not have included loot >from the Temple. If the rumours I've heard
about the aforementioned loot are true, this would not be something the
Vatican would publicize or exhibit. Loot would have included genealogies, if
these were supposed to have been housed in the Temple.

Varda Epstein
Metzad


JewishGen Discussion Group #JewishGen Harry SILVERMAN #general

Josh Brown <gettysburg63@...>
 

B"H

Hello:

Does anyone have a Harry SILVERMAN in their family tree who was living in
San Francisco, CA in 1910? We have a picture of my g.grandfather with his
best friend, Harry Silverman, that was taken in San Francisco in 1910. I
would be glad to copy this picture and send it to any relatives.

Thanks,
Josh Brown


Re: Vatican #general

hennynow
 

Dear Genners,

While I don't have the answer to Varda's question, I can give you some information,
thanks to my having worked on the exhibition, *A Visual Testimony: Judaica
from the Vatican Library,* which was opened by Pope John Paul II in Miami,
Florida, in September 1987. The exhibition was organized by the Center
for the Fine Arts [now the Miami Art Museum), Miami, Florida, and the
Union of American Hebrew Congregations, New York, New York, and
was made possible by the National Committee for the Vatican Judaica
Exhibition.

The Biblioteca Apostolica Vaticana holds over 75,000 manuscripts in many languages.
Its Hebraica collection of more than 800 Hebrew manuscripts includes
prayer books, philosophy, ethics, and legal writings, among others.

I own a copy of the catalogue of the exhibition. It mentions various Jewish
historical personalities, with an occasional sparse bit of biographical
information. It's not much of a useful source for our purposes, but I'm
open to questions.

Cordially,

Henny

Henriette Moed Roth
Los Angeles, California
hennynow@...


Chawa (?) #general

Steinhe@...
 

Hello All,

I have a birth record of a female relative >from Poland with given name of
Chawa. I cannot find her on any other records. Are there any variants of
the name Chawa, in Hebrew, Yiddish or Polish that were used in Poland? I am
trying to pick up the trail.

Thank you.

Harry Stein


JewishGen Discussion Group #JewishGen Re: Vatican #general

hennynow
 

Dear Genners,

While I don't have the answer to Varda's question, I can give you some information,
thanks to my having worked on the exhibition, *A Visual Testimony: Judaica
from the Vatican Library,* which was opened by Pope John Paul II in Miami,
Florida, in September 1987. The exhibition was organized by the Center
for the Fine Arts [now the Miami Art Museum), Miami, Florida, and the
Union of American Hebrew Congregations, New York, New York, and
was made possible by the National Committee for the Vatican Judaica
Exhibition.

The Biblioteca Apostolica Vaticana holds over 75,000 manuscripts in many languages.
Its Hebraica collection of more than 800 Hebrew manuscripts includes
prayer books, philosophy, ethics, and legal writings, among others.

I own a copy of the catalogue of the exhibition. It mentions various Jewish
historical personalities, with an occasional sparse bit of biographical
information. It's not much of a useful source for our purposes, but I'm
open to questions.

Cordially,

Henny

Henriette Moed Roth
Los Angeles, California
hennynow@...


JewishGen Discussion Group #JewishGen Chawa (?) #general

Steinhe@...
 

Hello All,

I have a birth record of a female relative >from Poland with given name of
Chawa. I cannot find her on any other records. Are there any variants of
the name Chawa, in Hebrew, Yiddish or Polish that were used in Poland? I am
trying to pick up the trail.

Thank you.

Harry Stein


HEIMAN or HERMAN, Pandelys/Kupiskis--->S.Africa?? #general

m leonards <m_leonards@...>
 

I am researching four (half) siblings who immigrated to the USA between 1890
and 1904, all the children of Meir KHELEM. According to the 1894 Family
List, the family moved >from Pandelys to Kupiskis (both Kovno Gubernia) in
1875.

In American records the surname is usually CHELEM or KELLEM (the vowels are
your choice). But all four of these siblings eventually adopted the surname
HYMAN.

According to his grandchildren, the brother spent some time in South Africa
before coming to the USA. He immigrated under the name Joseph HERMAN in
1904. I'm not sure whether this was a misread HEIMAN, or whether he used
the name HERMAN in South Africa.

The 1894 Kupiskis Family List also revealed three previously unknown
sisters. I don't think they came to the United States, because none of the
children or grandchildren remember anything about them. So far, I've found
no other trace of them in Kupsikis. So, perhaps they went to South Africa
(or somewhere else) and stayed.

The sisters are:
Feige (b. 1874-1876)
Gittke (b. 1877-1879)
Rochlia (b. 1884-1886)

All three were the daughters of Meir KHELEM. Rochlia's mother was probably
Sore GORDON of Kupiskis (b. c. 1843, d. 1906). I'm not sure about the
mother of the older sisters.

If this rings any bells, please let me know.

Monica Leonards
Glenside, PA


Paris Phone Book, 1950 #general

Daniel Kazez <dkazez@...>
 

Does anyone have access to a Paris telephone book, around 1950? I am trying
to get a list of dentists active in Paris at that time (in reference to a
message I posted recently; below).

My great uncle Moshe FRESCO (FRESKO) married Juliette JORDAN (JOURDAN) in
Paris, in the 1920s. Their daughter, Colette FRESCO (born 1920s, Paris)
became a dentist in Paris in the late 1940s.
Daniel Kazez <dkazez@...>
Springfield, Ohio USA
Czestochowa-Przyrow-Mstow-Janow-Zarki-Plawno-Radomsko-Lodz-Zgierz
Turkey: KAZEZ-KAZES, ALHADEF-ELHADEF, FRESKO-FRESCO, HABIB, DEVIDAS-DE VIDAS
http://userpages.wittenberg.edu/dkazez/dk/elh-kaz-fre.html

MODERATOR'S NOTE: Please respond privately


JewishGen Discussion Group #JewishGen HEIMAN or HERMAN, Pandelys/Kupiskis--->S.Africa?? #general

m leonards <m_leonards@...>
 

I am researching four (half) siblings who immigrated to the USA between 1890
and 1904, all the children of Meir KHELEM. According to the 1894 Family
List, the family moved >from Pandelys to Kupiskis (both Kovno Gubernia) in
1875.

In American records the surname is usually CHELEM or KELLEM (the vowels are
your choice). But all four of these siblings eventually adopted the surname
HYMAN.

According to his grandchildren, the brother spent some time in South Africa
before coming to the USA. He immigrated under the name Joseph HERMAN in
1904. I'm not sure whether this was a misread HEIMAN, or whether he used
the name HERMAN in South Africa.

The 1894 Kupiskis Family List also revealed three previously unknown
sisters. I don't think they came to the United States, because none of the
children or grandchildren remember anything about them. So far, I've found
no other trace of them in Kupsikis. So, perhaps they went to South Africa
(or somewhere else) and stayed.

The sisters are:
Feige (b. 1874-1876)
Gittke (b. 1877-1879)
Rochlia (b. 1884-1886)

All three were the daughters of Meir KHELEM. Rochlia's mother was probably
Sore GORDON of Kupiskis (b. c. 1843, d. 1906). I'm not sure about the
mother of the older sisters.

If this rings any bells, please let me know.

Monica Leonards
Glenside, PA


JewishGen Discussion Group #JewishGen Paris Phone Book, 1950 #general

Daniel Kazez <dkazez@...>
 

Does anyone have access to a Paris telephone book, around 1950? I am trying
to get a list of dentists active in Paris at that time (in reference to a
message I posted recently; below).

My great uncle Moshe FRESCO (FRESKO) married Juliette JORDAN (JOURDAN) in
Paris, in the 1920s. Their daughter, Colette FRESCO (born 1920s, Paris)
became a dentist in Paris in the late 1940s.
Daniel Kazez <dkazez@...>
Springfield, Ohio USA
Czestochowa-Przyrow-Mstow-Janow-Zarki-Plawno-Radomsko-Lodz-Zgierz
Turkey: KAZEZ-KAZES, ALHADEF-ELHADEF, FRESKO-FRESCO, HABIB, DEVIDAS-DE VIDAS
http://userpages.wittenberg.edu/dkazez/dk/elh-kaz-fre.html

MODERATOR'S NOTE: Please respond privately


Lost messages #southafrica

Carol W. Skydell <cwskydell@...>
 

We're sorry but there were some technical problems that may have caused
messages sent to us last Wednesday/Thursday to be forever lost in
cyberspace. If you haven't seen your message posted, please re-submit.

We apologize for the inconvenience.

Carol Skydell, Vice President
JewishGen Special Projects


South Africa SIG #SouthAfrica Lost messages #southafrica

Carol W. Skydell <cwskydell@...>
 

We're sorry but there were some technical problems that may have caused
messages sent to us last Wednesday/Thursday to be forever lost in
cyberspace. If you haven't seen your message posted, please re-submit.

We apologize for the inconvenience.

Carol Skydell, Vice President
JewishGen Special Projects


Re: Rudina #hungary

SVass@...
 

There is a Rudina halfway between Zilina and Kysucke N. Mesto. It used to be
Nagy and/or Kis Rudina between Zsolna and Kisucza Ujhely in Trencsen Megye.
There were 5 Jews in each town according to the 1877 gazetteer. The FHL
microfilm 1982513, Items 2 and 3 may list the births, marriages, and deaths
in the 19th century.
Sam Vass Kent, Washington, USA
searching for WEIL, SCHALK, SCHIFF, & GRUNBAUM in the same region


Hungary SIG #Hungary Re: Rudina #hungary

SVass@...
 

There is a Rudina halfway between Zilina and Kysucke N. Mesto. It used to be
Nagy and/or Kis Rudina between Zsolna and Kisucza Ujhely in Trencsen Megye.
There were 5 Jews in each town according to the 1877 gazetteer. The FHL
microfilm 1982513, Items 2 and 3 may list the births, marriages, and deaths
in the 19th century.
Sam Vass Kent, Washington, USA
searching for WEIL, SCHALK, SCHIFF, & GRUNBAUM in the same region


looking for lewison #southafrica

mccain <mccain@...>
 

> Help !!!!!
I have been searching for 2 years and have found nothing.
What am I doing wrong.

My Great Grandfather, Abraham Lewison , was born in Russia.
Dead family members said my Grandfather , Emanuel Lewison , came from
Jacobstadt / Jacobpils ,
now in Latvia.
Emanuel was born in approx 1853 , he married a Susan Harris in London
in
1876 , and his marriage
certificate gives his age as 23.
Emanuel and Susan emigrated to South Africa.
They lived in Oudtshoorn and farmed ostriches.

Both Great Grandfather , Abraham , and Grandfather , Emanuel , used
the
surname Lewison.
Could Abraham and Emanuel be surnames rather than first names ????
Could Lewison be a place name , perhaps >from where they came ????

Has anybody any ideas where I can find out about "my" Lewison's from
Eastern
Europe ????
Did they change their surname on coming to UK ????
How could I find out if this is so ????

Please respond privately.

Thank you
Zoie McCain


South Africa SIG #SouthAfrica looking for lewison #southafrica

mccain <mccain@...>
 

> Help !!!!!
I have been searching for 2 years and have found nothing.
What am I doing wrong.

My Great Grandfather, Abraham Lewison , was born in Russia.
Dead family members said my Grandfather , Emanuel Lewison , came from
Jacobstadt / Jacobpils ,
now in Latvia.
Emanuel was born in approx 1853 , he married a Susan Harris in London
in
1876 , and his marriage
certificate gives his age as 23.
Emanuel and Susan emigrated to South Africa.
They lived in Oudtshoorn and farmed ostriches.

Both Great Grandfather , Abraham , and Grandfather , Emanuel , used
the
surname Lewison.
Could Abraham and Emanuel be surnames rather than first names ????
Could Lewison be a place name , perhaps >from where they came ????

Has anybody any ideas where I can find out about "my" Lewison's from
Eastern
Europe ????
Did they change their surname on coming to UK ????
How could I find out if this is so ????

Please respond privately.

Thank you
Zoie McCain