On 2002.09.12, Micheline Gutmann <asso.genami@free.fr> wrote:

Who are Esther's ancestors?
I have this list. Is it correct? Is it possible to complete it?

The lines Micheline Guttman listed as ancestors of Ester, the
mother-in-law of Yehudah-Leib ben Hagra, are not the correct lines.
The details are in Eizenstadt's "Daat Kedoshim". After the chagim I
will have time to give the details on RavSIG.

Gmar Khatimakh Tovah

Chaim Freedman
Petah Tikvah, Israel
chaimjan@zahav.net.il
http://www.shtetlinks.jewishgen.org/Colonies_of_Ukraine/index.htm

On 2002.09.12, Micheline Gutmann <asso.genami@free.fr> wrote:

Who are Esther's ancestors?
I have this list. Is it correct? Is it possible to complete it?

The lines Micheline Guttman listed as ancestors of Ester, the
mother-in-law of Yehudah-Leib ben Hagra, are not the correct lines.
The details are in Eizenstadt's "Daat Kedoshim". After the chagim I
will have time to give the details on RavSIG.

Gmar Khatimakh Tovah

Chaim Freedman
Petah Tikvah, Israel
chaimjan@zahav.net.il
http://www.shtetlinks.jewishgen.org/Colonies_of_Ukraine/index.htm

I don't know what the University would be there. However, I recently
learned through getting the very sparce records of my grandfather's college
degree >from Valparaiso University in 1914, that he must have gone to college
in the Ukraine and studied mathematics and engineering. He graduated with a
full bachelors degree in engineering that was supposed to take 3 full years
in just 18 mos. about half of the time. The archivist seemed to be
fascinated with the remarkable achievements and excellent grades in very
advanced courses in calculous and civil and chemical engineering. He worked
for US Steel after that time until the 1930's. Apparently he must have had
prior studies in the Ukraine in order to get approval to skip some courses
and take the more advanced ones.

He must have been studying advance courses at a young age though and somehow
was also studying Hebrew and politics. On an audio taped interview made in
1980, his youngest brother, Uncle Eddie, then 82 yrs. old, some time after
my grandfather died, stated that my grandfather, Peisach or Peter Isaac
Kriegman, went away >from their village Rogachev, where the rest of the
family was engaged originally in tanning and later owned a grist mill. At a
relative young age, maybe fourteen or younger he went away >from the family
of 9 and studied in Kiev. He was referred to as "the student". The name of
a University or other educational institution where Jews were welcomed to
study, I do not know. But of course, I would be very interested.

My Grandfather, taught Hebrew as a teenager after studying (in Kiev, I
presume.) Perhaps this was some kind of itinerant mission that young men
were sent on >from some Yeshiva in Kiev to other Ukraine Jewish communities.
I wonder about that because my grandmother met him first in Ukraine and many
years later again, in the US. He was hired by her father to teach her and
her siblings Hebrew when she was a girl, 7 years younger than he, in a
village near Berdichev, Chernorudska. Another element to this family
history is that he became involved in the first Bolshevik movement and
helped print literature to spread information about the political movement.
He learned to speak Russian well according to his brother, though the rest
of the family in Rogachev spoke "very little Russian" and "mostly Yiddish".
His brother, Uncle Eddie, volunteered in the interview that when he studied
in Kiev, he became "very interested in alot of politics" and that around
Kiev "was where most of the revolutionaries came from." His involvement
with the revolutionaries was somehow interceded by being inducted into the
Russian Army. This was the main impetus for the family to leave Ukraine.
As Eddie put it, after Peter was taken into the army they knew the second
brother, "Morris would be next" and then the two other brothers. He said
sometimes boys would be inscribed at a young age and never was allowed out,
put in the position to be killed, live a horrible life and never be able to
do anything with their lives. The family helped my grandfather, Peter,
desert >from the army, helped get him out of the country first and then the
others.

Another part of this story is that ggrandfather, Abraham, his brother and
cousins were known as strong men that were respected by and friendly with
the Mayor and the governor of Volynia Gubernia. His father had a friendship
with the "governor of Volynia." Abraham had to stop the second generation
tanning business because it was "very hard work" and caused terrible
"arthritis". Somehow he had "a little land"on which they used to grow
potatoes and other vegetables on which to survive. They built on this land
a grist mill and somehow had "a little money, not much" to buy some
machinery >from Germany to build a factory. They worked out a barter system
with the local peasants who grew the wheat. According to Eddie, the
governor of Volynia Gubernia, offered to help keep Morris out of the army
and urged the family not to leave. But they didn't trust this would happen,
and by 1910 the whole family of parents and 7 children left. The way the
last 5 members funded their passage >from the Ukraine to US through Belgium
was by selling the Mill to the Governor of Volynia.

I just learned this remarkable story about the family and the governor and
heard this remarkable interview on tape for the first time, about a month
ago, through developing relationships over the internet with family members
I have never actually met, but knew of. Our families had not communicated
for over 50 years! We found each other through Jewishgen's Family Finder.
By the way, this is only one instance of many incredible, wonderful,
life-affirming experiences made possible by Jewishgen in my research over
the last 4 years.

I guess this underscores why I and many of you should make a pledge and
contribution of whatever we can to support Jewishgen.


Diane Kriegman Claussen
Atlanta, GA
Researching: KRIEGMAN (Rogachev,Novograd Volynskiy, New Jersey, Chicago);
BRICHKE (Rogachev, Novgorad Volynskiy, New Jersey, Chicago); SHARE /
CHERNORUDSKY (Berdichev, Chicago); SMASON (Grodno, Philadelphia, Denver,
Chicago); KNOPF (Berlin, Germany Philadelphia, Chicago); REDMAN (Ladyzhinka,
Chicago); SHPARAGO (Dubova, Ternovka, Nikolaev)
-diane,daniel, and the dogs....still howling at the moon-
didado@mindspring.com

I don't know what the University would be there. However, I recently
learned through getting the very sparce records of my grandfather's college
degree >from Valparaiso University in 1914, that he must have gone to college
in the Ukraine and studied mathematics and engineering. He graduated with a
full bachelors degree in engineering that was supposed to take 3 full years
in just 18 mos. about half of the time. The archivist seemed to be
fascinated with the remarkable achievements and excellent grades in very
advanced courses in calculous and civil and chemical engineering. He worked
for US Steel after that time until the 1930's. Apparently he must have had
prior studies in the Ukraine in order to get approval to skip some courses
and take the more advanced ones.

He must have been studying advance courses at a young age though and somehow
was also studying Hebrew and politics. On an audio taped interview made in
1980, his youngest brother, Uncle Eddie, then 82 yrs. old, some time after
my grandfather died, stated that my grandfather, Peisach or Peter Isaac
Kriegman, went away >from their village Rogachev, where the rest of the
family was engaged originally in tanning and later owned a grist mill. At a
relative young age, maybe fourteen or younger he went away >from the family
of 9 and studied in Kiev. He was referred to as "the student". The name of
a University or other educational institution where Jews were welcomed to
study, I do not know. But of course, I would be very interested.

My Grandfather, taught Hebrew as a teenager after studying (in Kiev, I
presume.) Perhaps this was some kind of itinerant mission that young men
were sent on >from some Yeshiva in Kiev to other Ukraine Jewish communities.
I wonder about that because my grandmother met him first in Ukraine and many
years later again, in the US. He was hired by her father to teach her and
her siblings Hebrew when she was a girl, 7 years younger than he, in a
village near Berdichev, Chernorudska. Another element to this family
history is that he became involved in the first Bolshevik movement and
helped print literature to spread information about the political movement.
He learned to speak Russian well according to his brother, though the rest
of the family in Rogachev spoke "very little Russian" and "mostly Yiddish".
His brother, Uncle Eddie, volunteered in the interview that when he studied
in Kiev, he became "very interested in alot of politics" and that around
Kiev "was where most of the revolutionaries came from." His involvement
with the revolutionaries was somehow interceded by being inducted into the
Russian Army. This was the main impetus for the family to leave Ukraine.
As Eddie put it, after Peter was taken into the army they knew the second
brother, "Morris would be next" and then the two other brothers. He said
sometimes boys would be inscribed at a young age and never was allowed out,
put in the position to be killed, live a horrible life and never be able to
do anything with their lives. The family helped my grandfather, Peter,
desert >from the army, helped get him out of the country first and then the
others.

Another part of this story is that ggrandfather, Abraham, his brother and
cousins were known as strong men that were respected by and friendly with
the Mayor and the governor of Volynia Gubernia. His father had a friendship
with the "governor of Volynia." Abraham had to stop the second generation
tanning business because it was "very hard work" and caused terrible
"arthritis". Somehow he had "a little land"on which they used to grow
potatoes and other vegetables on which to survive. They built on this land
a grist mill and somehow had "a little money, not much" to buy some
machinery >from Germany to build a factory. They worked out a barter system
with the local peasants who grew the wheat. According to Eddie, the
governor of Volynia Gubernia, offered to help keep Morris out of the army
and urged the family not to leave. But they didn't trust this would happen,
and by 1910 the whole family of parents and 7 children left. The way the
last 5 members funded their passage >from the Ukraine to US through Belgium
was by selling the Mill to the Governor of Volynia.

I just learned this remarkable story about the family and the governor and
heard this remarkable interview on tape for the first time, about a month
ago, through developing relationships over the internet with family members
I have never actually met, but knew of. Our families had not communicated
for over 50 years! We found each other through Jewishgen's Family Finder.
By the way, this is only one instance of many incredible, wonderful,
life-affirming experiences made possible by Jewishgen in my research over
the last 4 years.

I guess this underscores why I and many of you should make a pledge and
contribution of whatever we can to support Jewishgen.


Diane Kriegman Claussen
Atlanta, GA
Researching: KRIEGMAN (Rogachev,Novograd Volynskiy, New Jersey, Chicago);
BRICHKE (Rogachev, Novgorad Volynskiy, New Jersey, Chicago); SHARE /
CHERNORUDSKY (Berdichev, Chicago); SMASON (Grodno, Philadelphia, Denver,
Chicago); KNOPF (Berlin, Germany Philadelphia, Chicago); REDMAN (Ladyzhinka,
Chicago); SHPARAGO (Dubova, Ternovka, Nikolaev)
-diane,daniel, and the dogs....still howling at the moon-
didado@mindspring.com

Hi

This morning at a garage sale in Kikar Dizengoff, Tel Aviv, I saw an album
containing photographs of an American serviceman named Moe Liberman
which appear to have been taken during World War Two.
The address is given as 690 Fort Washington, NYC
This is rather a large album with dozens of off-duty photographs,
including groups.
There is also details of a petrol ration card for a Chrysler.

If anyone can recognise this and is interested
I can put you in touch with the present owner.

Shirley
London England
at present in Tel Aviv

MODERATOR NOTE: Please respond privately

Hi

This morning at a garage sale in Kikar Dizengoff, Tel Aviv, I saw an album
containing photographs of an American serviceman named Moe Liberman
which appear to have been taken during World War Two.
The address is given as 690 Fort Washington, NYC
This is rather a large album with dozens of off-duty photographs,
including groups.
There is also details of a petrol ration card for a Chrysler.

If anyone can recognise this and is interested
I can put you in touch with the present owner.

Shirley
London England
at present in Tel Aviv

MODERATOR NOTE: Please respond privately

I have posted on JewishGen a ViewMate file which is >from the back of a family
photo postcard. A friend who was unable to read the message told me she
thinks that the language is Yiddish but that there are some Belarussian and
Ukranian words as well. The family was >from the Kobrin/Divin area in
Belarus, although some family members moved across the border to Wel'ka
Glusha in the Ukraine. The direct address of my ViewMate file is

http://www.jewishgen.org/viewmate/ALL/source/vm1775.html

If you do not wish to use the direct address, the general ViewMate address is
http://www.jewishgen.org/viewmate/toview.html The file is #1775. Even if
you can translate only a few words, I would appreciate it very much if you
would let me know whatever you can understand. Please answer privately to
egrdn@aol.com

Eleanor Gordon
Lafayette, CA

I have posted on JewishGen a ViewMate file which is >from the back of a family
photo postcard. A friend who was unable to read the message told me she
thinks that the language is Yiddish but that there are some Belarussian and
Ukranian words as well. The family was >from the Kobrin/Divin area in
Belarus, although some family members moved across the border to Wel'ka
Glusha in the Ukraine. The direct address of my ViewMate file is

http://www.jewishgen.org/viewmate/ALL/source/vm1775.html

If you do not wish to use the direct address, the general ViewMate address is
http://www.jewishgen.org/viewmate/toview.html The file is #1775. Even if
you can translate only a few words, I would appreciate it very much if you
would let me know whatever you can understand. Please answer privately to
egrdn@aol.com

Eleanor Gordon
Lafayette, CA

Dear friends:

Reviewing my late father's work on Jews of Upper Silesia, I came upon a
note that contained information I have now confirmed:

The LDS films 879,596 through 879,598, indexed under Baranowice
(Baranowitz), Katowice province, actually contain much more.

Specifically, they contain a wealth of information about:
Sohrau (Zory) for about 1812-1836 and 1847-1873
Loslau (Wodzislaw Slaski) 1826-1874
Rybnik for 1812-1874 (though more for the years before about 1850)
localities in Kreis Rybnik for 1812-1847

as well as:

Nieder-Belk for 1843-1847
Baranowitz for 1845-1848
Nieder-Schwirklan for 1848 (one record--for the Bielschowsky family).

In fact, the Baranowitz material takes up only a few frames at the
beginning of the film.

The contents of the film are summarized accurately in a typed document
that appears at the beginning of the first of the three reels of film.

My father's notes indicate that a similar situation holds for film
864,953, which is listed as containing material about Neu-Berun (Bierun
Nowy); but I have not yet seen this film.

My question to all of you:

Have you found such uncatalogued material on other films, whether from
the LDS Family History Library or elsewhere? If so, please describe it
for us.

Let me state unequivocally that:
--I consider the LDS/FHL efforts to be noble and highly valuable,
--they have to date provided vast amounts of information at minimal cost
to thousands and thousands of researchers,
--I consider the state of affairs described above to be merely an
oversight,
--I am circulating the information in this note, and making my request,
strictly in the interest of making a good thing better.

May all of us be inscribed in the Book of Life for the coming year, and
may all of us have success in discovering the inscriptions we seek in
other books!

Roger Lustig <trovato@bellatlantic.net>

Researching Upper Silesia, Jöhlingen (Baden), Netra (Hessen),
Hockenheim, Speyer, etc.

Dear friends:

Reviewing my late father's work on Jews of Upper Silesia, I came upon a
note that contained information I have now confirmed:

The LDS films 879,596 through 879,598, indexed under Baranowice
(Baranowitz), Katowice province, actually contain much more.

Specifically, they contain a wealth of information about:
Sohrau (Zory) for about 1812-1836 and 1847-1873
Loslau (Wodzislaw Slaski) 1826-1874
Rybnik for 1812-1874 (though more for the years before about 1850)
localities in Kreis Rybnik for 1812-1847

as well as:

Nieder-Belk for 1843-1847
Baranowitz for 1845-1848
Nieder-Schwirklan for 1848 (one record--for the Bielschowsky family).

In fact, the Baranowitz material takes up only a few frames at the
beginning of the film.

The contents of the film are summarized accurately in a typed document
that appears at the beginning of the first of the three reels of film.

My father's notes indicate that a similar situation holds for film
864,953, which is listed as containing material about Neu-Berun (Bierun
Nowy); but I have not yet seen this film.

My question to all of you:

Have you found such uncatalogued material on other films, whether from
the LDS Family History Library or elsewhere? If so, please describe it
for us.

Let me state unequivocally that:
--I consider the LDS/FHL efforts to be noble and highly valuable,
--they have to date provided vast amounts of information at minimal cost
to thousands and thousands of researchers,
--I consider the state of affairs described above to be merely an
oversight,
--I am circulating the information in this note, and making my request,
strictly in the interest of making a good thing better.

May all of us be inscribed in the Book of Life for the coming year, and
may all of us have success in discovering the inscriptions we seek in
other books!

Roger Lustig <trovato@bellatlantic.net>

Researching Upper Silesia, Jöhlingen (Baden), Netra (Hessen),
Hockenheim, Speyer, etc.

Martin Kurrein writes:

I'm researching ancestors and descendants of Louis LOEWE (Moses
Montefiore's secretary and biographer), and the ancestors of Rabbi Adolf
KURREIN, father Markus KURREIN (Gorein, Corein?) 1802-1848, of Trebic.
The LOEWE descendants are not too difficult. It's the ancestors that are
causing me more problems. He appears to have been born LEVY (his father

was Jacob Simon LEVY of Zulz, Silesia, who was also known by the name
GOLDSCHMID).>
-------
The Staatsbürgerverzeichnis for upper and middle Silesia published
around 1815 lists the names of heads of households who had taken
citizenship in 1812-1814. There is no Louis LOEWE listed. (Louis isn't
a common name on the list--only 12 or so out of over 3750 names.)

Ludwig would be a Germanized form, but it's even rarer: 3 cases in all,
nobody named LOEWE or anything similar. Loebel would be a possibility,
but there are many, many Loebels.

If Jacob Simon LEVY was alive in 1812, he would likely have been a head
of household--unless I'm misreading or assuming too much in the above.

There is no Jacob Simon LEVY/LEWY/LEVI/LEWI in Zülz (or anywhere else)
on this register. However:
--There is nobody with any of those surnames in Zülz, out of 4 LEWIs, 5
LEWINs, and 51 LEWIs.
--There are 11 LÖWEs in the register, 10 of them in Zülz.
--There are 4 LÖWYs, 3 of them in Zülz, including one Jacob Simon LÖWY.
He is assigned the number 2206. This number is important because some
localities used it as a reference number in registers kept over the next
decades.
If you have access to Zülz records, you might begin with this individual.

Two caveats: the register sometimes lists place of residence as of 1812,
and sometimes the birthplace, without differentiating. And remember:
these are heads of households only. Spouses and children of any age
living with the head of household will not appear here. Glückauf!

Roger Lustig <trovato@bellatlantic.net>

MODERATOR NOTE: We ask all members to include their city and state
or nation of residence in signing posts to GerSig. Your cooperation
will be appreciated.

Martin Kurrein writes:

I'm researching ancestors and descendants of Louis LOEWE (Moses
Montefiore's secretary and biographer), and the ancestors of Rabbi Adolf
KURREIN, father Markus KURREIN (Gorein, Corein?) 1802-1848, of Trebic.
The LOEWE descendants are not too difficult. It's the ancestors that are
causing me more problems. He appears to have been born LEVY (his father

was Jacob Simon LEVY of Zulz, Silesia, who was also known by the name
GOLDSCHMID).>
-------
The Staatsbürgerverzeichnis for upper and middle Silesia published
around 1815 lists the names of heads of households who had taken
citizenship in 1812-1814. There is no Louis LOEWE listed. (Louis isn't
a common name on the list--only 12 or so out of over 3750 names.)

Ludwig would be a Germanized form, but it's even rarer: 3 cases in all,
nobody named LOEWE or anything similar. Loebel would be a possibility,
but there are many, many Loebels.

If Jacob Simon LEVY was alive in 1812, he would likely have been a head
of household--unless I'm misreading or assuming too much in the above.

There is no Jacob Simon LEVY/LEWY/LEVI/LEWI in Zülz (or anywhere else)
on this register. However:
--There is nobody with any of those surnames in Zülz, out of 4 LEWIs, 5
LEWINs, and 51 LEWIs.
--There are 11 LÖWEs in the register, 10 of them in Zülz.
--There are 4 LÖWYs, 3 of them in Zülz, including one Jacob Simon LÖWY.
He is assigned the number 2206. This number is important because some
localities used it as a reference number in registers kept over the next
decades.
If you have access to Zülz records, you might begin with this individual.

Two caveats: the register sometimes lists place of residence as of 1812,
and sometimes the birthplace, without differentiating. And remember:
these are heads of households only. Spouses and children of any age
living with the head of household will not appear here. Glückauf!

Roger Lustig <trovato@bellatlantic.net>

MODERATOR NOTE: We ask all members to include their city and state
or nation of residence in signing posts to GerSig. Your cooperation
will be appreciated.

I'm researching the family of a Morris SHORN who lived with his
wife Yetta and children in London's East End up to early 1930's
(or later). The Jewish Genealogical Society of Great Britain has
downloaded many of the burial records for the Edmonton Cemetery
as well as death and stone setting announcements >from the Jewish
Chronicle (London). One of internment records is for a Deborah
SHORN, age 6, who died on 5th Oct. 1918; parents Maurice and
Yetta SHORN. (Possible cause of death the Spanish flu, that
killed millions in Europe and the U.S. in 1918.)

Coming across this record was a real coup! This is the first time
I've managed to find any BMD records for the SHORN family. (Morris
SHORN was a cousin of some kind of my maternal grandmother Sarah
Rachel ROSE/DROZDIASZ nee SAFIRSTEIN.)

There was also an Anthony Alfred SHORN (wife Faye) whose death
and stone setting announcement was recorded by the Jewish Chronicle
on 4th January 1996. (Age not given) Anthony (or Tony) was
probably Maurice (Morris)'s and Yetta's son.

Other death and stone settings were for the following:
Bessie SHORN, age 94, DOD 12 Sept. 1999
Gloria SHORN (maiden name Bennett), DOD 10th Oct. 1997

If anyone is planning to visit the cemetery, soon, and would
consider taking pictures of the SHORN family's headstones on my
behalf, I'd be very grateful and pleased to remunerate him/her for
any expenses involved.

I'm particularly interested in knowing where and when Maurice
(Morris) SHORN died and was buried. Like my maternal grandparents
(Israel and Sarah Rachel ROSE/DROZDIASZ) Morris SHORN may have come

from Karczew, Poland (or the environs thereof). Am hoping that the

inscription on his headstone will include the name of his father.

I'm hoping that the family purchased a family lot -- or at least
were buried fairly close together in the Cemetery.

Please reply privately.

Naidia Woolf
San Francisco, Ca
Formerly >from Birmingham, England
rnwoolf@earthlink.net

Researching:
KIJAWSKI/KUJAWSKI/KUIAWSKI, Lodz, Poland
DROZDIASZ/DROZDASH, Karczew, Poland
SAPERSTEIN/SAFIRSTEIN/SUPERSTAYN, Karczew, Poland
ISAACS (family of Solomon & Sarah), Poland, town unknown
SHORN/SHORR/SCHORR (family of Morris and Yetta SHORN), Poland,
town unknown

I'm researching the family of a Morris SHORN who lived with his
wife Yetta and children in London's East End up to early 1930's
(or later). The Jewish Genealogical Society of Great Britain has
downloaded many of the burial records for the Edmonton Cemetery
as well as death and stone setting announcements >from the Jewish
Chronicle (London). One of internment records is for a Deborah
SHORN, age 6, who died on 5th Oct. 1918; parents Maurice and
Yetta SHORN. (Possible cause of death the Spanish flu, that
killed millions in Europe and the U.S. in 1918.)

Coming across this record was a real coup! This is the first time
I've managed to find any BMD records for the SHORN family. (Morris
SHORN was a cousin of some kind of my maternal grandmother Sarah
Rachel ROSE/DROZDIASZ nee SAFIRSTEIN.)

There was also an Anthony Alfred SHORN (wife Faye) whose death
and stone setting announcement was recorded by the Jewish Chronicle
on 4th January 1996. (Age not given) Anthony (or Tony) was
probably Maurice (Morris)'s and Yetta's son.

Other death and stone settings were for the following:
Bessie SHORN, age 94, DOD 12 Sept. 1999
Gloria SHORN (maiden name Bennett), DOD 10th Oct. 1997

If anyone is planning to visit the cemetery, soon, and would
consider taking pictures of the SHORN family's headstones on my
behalf, I'd be very grateful and pleased to remunerate him/her for
any expenses involved.

I'm particularly interested in knowing where and when Maurice
(Morris) SHORN died and was buried. Like my maternal grandparents
(Israel and Sarah Rachel ROSE/DROZDIASZ) Morris SHORN may have come

from Karczew, Poland (or the environs thereof). Am hoping that the

inscription on his headstone will include the name of his father.

I'm hoping that the family purchased a family lot -- or at least
were buried fairly close together in the Cemetery.

Please reply privately.

Naidia Woolf
San Francisco, Ca
Formerly >from Birmingham, England
rnwoolf@earthlink.net

Researching:
KIJAWSKI/KUJAWSKI/KUIAWSKI, Lodz, Poland
DROZDIASZ/DROZDASH, Karczew, Poland
SAPERSTEIN/SAFIRSTEIN/SUPERSTAYN, Karczew, Poland
ISAACS (family of Solomon & Sarah), Poland, town unknown
SHORN/SHORR/SCHORR (family of Morris and Yetta SHORN), Poland,
town unknown

To the specialists on the JAFFE family:

Jehuda Leib VILNER (1764-1816), son of the Vilna Gaon married a
daughter of Abraham of Serhei and Esther JAFFE. (>from Chaim
FREEDMAN's book).
Who are Esther's ancestors?
I have this list. Is it correct? Is it possible to complete it?

JAFFE Meir N : ../../1420
1 JAFFE Eliezer Ben Meir N : ../../1450
1.1 JAFFE Joseph Ben Eliezer N : ../../1475
1.1.1 JAFFE Abraham N : ../../1500 D : ../../1564 Prague?
1.1.1.1 JAFFE Mordechai N : ../../1530 Prague (TCH)
D : ../../1612 Posen
1.1.1.1.1 JAFFE Jehuda Loeb N : ../../1565 Berlin
1.1.1.1.1.1 JAFFE Abraham N : ../../1595
1.1.1.1.1.1.1 JAFFE Jacob Israel N : ../../1625
1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1 JAFFE Nehemias Ben Jacob Israel N : ../../1655
D :../../1732
1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1 JAFFE Lazarus Nehemias N : ../../1704 Breslau
1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1A x Machla Jacob N : ../../1705
M : ../11/1730
D : 02/05/1773 Berlin
1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1 JAFFE Marcus Lazarus Mordecai
N : 04/08/1740 Berlin
D : 07/11/1813 Schwerin
1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1A xSEGAL Golda Bat Eisick N : ../../1740 Lissa
D : 15/10/1801 Schwerin
etc....
1.1.1.1.1.2 JAFFE Aron N : ../../1605 D : ../../1651 Uman ?
1.1.1.1.1.2.1 JAFFE Israel Saba N : ../../1642 Uman
D : ../../1702 Francfort (Oder)
1.1.1.1.1.2.1A xTEOMIM N
1.1.1.1.1.2.1.1 JAFFE N : ../../1670
1.1.1.1.1.2.1.1.1 JAFFE N : ../../1700
1.1.1.1.1.2.1.1.1.1 JAFFE N : ../../1730
1.1.1.1.1.2.1.1.1.1.1 JAFFE Esther
1.1.1.1.1.2.1.1.1.1.1A x Avraham of Serhei
1.1.1.1.1.2.1.1.1.1.1.1 N N N : Alinka (LIT)
1.1.1.1.1.2.1.1.1.1.1.1A xVILNER Jehuda Leib
N : ../../1764 D : ../../1816 Serhei (LIT)

Thank you in advance.

L'shana tova!

Micheline Gutmann, GenAmi, Paris, France
mailto:asso.genami@free.fr
http://asso.genami.free.fr

To the specialists on the JAFFE family:

Jehuda Leib VILNER (1764-1816), son of the Vilna Gaon married a
daughter of Abraham of Serhei and Esther JAFFE. (>from Chaim
FREEDMAN's book).
Who are Esther's ancestors?
I have this list. Is it correct? Is it possible to complete it?

JAFFE Meir N : ../../1420
1 JAFFE Eliezer Ben Meir N : ../../1450
1.1 JAFFE Joseph Ben Eliezer N : ../../1475
1.1.1 JAFFE Abraham N : ../../1500 D : ../../1564 Prague?
1.1.1.1 JAFFE Mordechai N : ../../1530 Prague (TCH)
D : ../../1612 Posen
1.1.1.1.1 JAFFE Jehuda Loeb N : ../../1565 Berlin
1.1.1.1.1.1 JAFFE Abraham N : ../../1595
1.1.1.1.1.1.1 JAFFE Jacob Israel N : ../../1625
1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1 JAFFE Nehemias Ben Jacob Israel N : ../../1655
D :../../1732
1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1 JAFFE Lazarus Nehemias N : ../../1704 Breslau
1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1A x Machla Jacob N : ../../1705
M : ../11/1730
D : 02/05/1773 Berlin
1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1 JAFFE Marcus Lazarus Mordecai
N : 04/08/1740 Berlin
D : 07/11/1813 Schwerin
1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1A xSEGAL Golda Bat Eisick N : ../../1740 Lissa
D : 15/10/1801 Schwerin
etc....
1.1.1.1.1.2 JAFFE Aron N : ../../1605 D : ../../1651 Uman ?
1.1.1.1.1.2.1 JAFFE Israel Saba N : ../../1642 Uman
D : ../../1702 Francfort (Oder)
1.1.1.1.1.2.1A xTEOMIM N
1.1.1.1.1.2.1.1 JAFFE N : ../../1670
1.1.1.1.1.2.1.1.1 JAFFE N : ../../1700
1.1.1.1.1.2.1.1.1.1 JAFFE N : ../../1730
1.1.1.1.1.2.1.1.1.1.1 JAFFE Esther
1.1.1.1.1.2.1.1.1.1.1A x Avraham of Serhei
1.1.1.1.1.2.1.1.1.1.1.1 N N N : Alinka (LIT)
1.1.1.1.1.2.1.1.1.1.1.1A xVILNER Jehuda Leib
N : ../../1764 D : ../../1816 Serhei (LIT)

Thank you in advance.

L'shana tova!

Micheline Gutmann, GenAmi, Paris, France
mailto:asso.genami@free.fr
http://asso.genami.free.fr

...Did your elusive person create any records in England? Did

he marry there, have children there, work there, get enumerated on
a census there, a witness to a marriage, or have legal issues there?
How about any other family members? Maybe this can give you a clue
as well. Is his name in the Poor Jews Shelter? I too have a very
elusive person the came in >from England. I cannot find him because
I do not know what name he stayed there under. He did not live with
his parents.<<<

Similar problem on this end: Isidor and Mary probably would not
have left many, if any, records in England, but Mary's sister and
her husband traveled with Isidor and Mary to England, intending to
continue to the US. They were cheated out of their passage fare
and remained in England. Legend has it that the sister, Celia, was
expecting a child. Legend further has it that they set up an
apothecary shop in Petticoat Lane. Unfortunately, confirming any
of this is difficult because the only definite original surname I
have is the Pschedesky, the maiden names of Mary and Celia. I
don't even have the first name of Celia's husband. So, it's combing
through the passenger lists for me, though I'm also patiently waiting
for the 1901 London census to come online so that I can find out the
Enumeration district for Petticoat Lane and start combing through
to look for apothecaries (and hope for accuracy of the legend!).

He could have been Barnet(t) SHAPIRO. He could have been Benzion

SZABAS or something that sounds like SZABAS or SHABBAS. I know he
was there, I just have to find the records. He was there for about
12 years. Good luck in your search,
Linda Altman - Raleigh, NC<<<

Understood! I have a feeling that the surname Isidor used once in
the US, Phillips, has very little relation to his actual surname,
and I'm still clinging vaguely to "Dadacz" -- this was the name of
his father as given in Isidor's death certificate. The father's
first name was "Moses", according to this, and recent support of
this statement reached me in the translation of the Hebrew inscription
of Isidor's grave stone, thanks to the efforts of the members of this
list.

Frustratingly, Isidor was occasionally in the habit of using "Isidor"
as a surname and Philip as a given one. Even more occasionally, he
uses Israel for a first name, and the Hebrew inscription of the
tombstone calls him Ytzack. So I'm guessing that his first name
was, indeed, something beginning with "I", which still leaves the
surname a mystery.

It's actually rather funny: when I first started tracing, I was
sure that Isidor would be fairly easy to track while the Maltinskys
would be almost purposefully annoying. And it's just the opposite:
the Maltinskys are yielding living relatives and bits of information
all over the place, and I can't get to first base with Isidor.

Example: Just got the marriage certificate for PA-based Samuel
Maltinsky and discovered his wife's maiden name was Gulke Kunst,

from "Russia". Census reports say she and Samuel were married the

same year she came over (though they miscalculate and state 1890
instead of 1891), so tracing her arrival into (presumably)
Philadelphia port shouldn't be that hard. Also guessing >from
the documented timing that she came over expressly to marry Samuel
and am guessing this means she came >from Latvia, if not Rezhitsa,
though I haven't found too many "Kunst" families in the Latvia SIG.
We'll see what turns up.

That'll teach me to assume.

Wishing all Genners a good new year.

Maria Torres
elena@pipeline.com
MALTINSKY, RUBINSTEIN, ZELLAT (Latvia, PA, GA, NY); NOTIS (Kovno,
NY); KUNST (Russia: Latvia?, PA); PHILLIPS (DADACZ/DUDACZ/
ISIDOR/EISENDOR), PSCHEDESKY (Poland, UK, NY)

Marc Manson,

I liked you message,"worth looking for high school records? *Yes*"
I just recently came across my mothers, Haddon Heights, New Jersey
H. S. yearbook the year that she graduated. Mom is 89 years old.
She had not looked at the book in years and it brought back a lot
of memories for her. She talked about everything. It was a
fantastic conversation and you are right I learned things I never
new.

She talked about all her friends and hopes and dreams.

Thank you for your post.

Marilyn van Aalten Hiller
Florida

Searching: van Aalten; de Wind, Levy, Bowman, Boxold, Chase, Whitehill

...Did your elusive person create any records in England? Did

he marry there, have children there, work there, get enumerated on
a census there, a witness to a marriage, or have legal issues there?
How about any other family members? Maybe this can give you a clue
as well. Is his name in the Poor Jews Shelter? I too have a very
elusive person the came in >from England. I cannot find him because
I do not know what name he stayed there under. He did not live with
his parents.<<<

Similar problem on this end: Isidor and Mary probably would not
have left many, if any, records in England, but Mary's sister and
her husband traveled with Isidor and Mary to England, intending to
continue to the US. They were cheated out of their passage fare
and remained in England. Legend has it that the sister, Celia, was
expecting a child. Legend further has it that they set up an
apothecary shop in Petticoat Lane. Unfortunately, confirming any
of this is difficult because the only definite original surname I
have is the Pschedesky, the maiden names of Mary and Celia. I
don't even have the first name of Celia's husband. So, it's combing
through the passenger lists for me, though I'm also patiently waiting
for the 1901 London census to come online so that I can find out the
Enumeration district for Petticoat Lane and start combing through
to look for apothecaries (and hope for accuracy of the legend!).

He could have been Barnet(t) SHAPIRO. He could have been Benzion

SZABAS or something that sounds like SZABAS or SHABBAS. I know he
was there, I just have to find the records. He was there for about
12 years. Good luck in your search,
Linda Altman - Raleigh, NC<<<

Understood! I have a feeling that the surname Isidor used once in
the US, Phillips, has very little relation to his actual surname,
and I'm still clinging vaguely to "Dadacz" -- this was the name of
his father as given in Isidor's death certificate. The father's
first name was "Moses", according to this, and recent support of
this statement reached me in the translation of the Hebrew inscription
of Isidor's grave stone, thanks to the efforts of the members of this
list.

Frustratingly, Isidor was occasionally in the habit of using "Isidor"
as a surname and Philip as a given one. Even more occasionally, he
uses Israel for a first name, and the Hebrew inscription of the
tombstone calls him Ytzack. So I'm guessing that his first name
was, indeed, something beginning with "I", which still leaves the
surname a mystery.

It's actually rather funny: when I first started tracing, I was
sure that Isidor would be fairly easy to track while the Maltinskys
would be almost purposefully annoying. And it's just the opposite:
the Maltinskys are yielding living relatives and bits of information
all over the place, and I can't get to first base with Isidor.

Example: Just got the marriage certificate for PA-based Samuel
Maltinsky and discovered his wife's maiden name was Gulke Kunst,

from "Russia". Census reports say she and Samuel were married the

same year she came over (though they miscalculate and state 1890
instead of 1891), so tracing her arrival into (presumably)
Philadelphia port shouldn't be that hard. Also guessing >from
the documented timing that she came over expressly to marry Samuel
and am guessing this means she came >from Latvia, if not Rezhitsa,
though I haven't found too many "Kunst" families in the Latvia SIG.
We'll see what turns up.

That'll teach me to assume.

Wishing all Genners a good new year.

Maria Torres
elena@pipeline.com
MALTINSKY, RUBINSTEIN, ZELLAT (Latvia, PA, GA, NY); NOTIS (Kovno,
NY); KUNST (Russia: Latvia?, PA); PHILLIPS (DADACZ/DUDACZ/
ISIDOR/EISENDOR), PSCHEDESKY (Poland, UK, NY)

Marc Manson,

I liked you message,"worth looking for high school records? *Yes*"
I just recently came across my mothers, Haddon Heights, New Jersey
H. S. yearbook the year that she graduated. Mom is 89 years old.
She had not looked at the book in years and it brought back a lot
of memories for her. She talked about everything. It was a
fantastic conversation and you are right I learned things I never
new.

She talked about all her friends and hopes and dreams.

Thank you for your post.

Marilyn van Aalten Hiller
Florida

Searching: van Aalten; de Wind, Levy, Bowman, Boxold, Chase, Whitehill