Further to Michael Bernet's list of names for the status of the
bride.

Maiden (literally "virgin") and indicates a first
marriage: betulta (bet-tav-vav-lamed-tav-aleph)
widow: the usual Aramaic word is
"Armalta" (aleph-reish-mem-lamed-tav-aleph)
divorcee: Is Matrachta (translation:matron)
(mem-tav-reish-chaf-tav-aleph)

Is the groom always simply known as chatan (chet-tav-nun), Yes, but
mostly called Hechatan irrespective of his pre-marital status

To what extent is the rule of 100 + 100 zuzin bride price for
a maiden, 50 + 50 for a widow or divorcee, universal across
communities?

Ans: The above are largely universal (in Orthodox).

Questions of halacha arise where a couple have been living together
before marriage or where it is known that the bride may indeed not
be a virgin. The lenient/benevolent (somewhat naive) view is
usually to give every first time bride the benefit of the doubt,
call her a betulah and give her 100+100 zuz. But there are serious
views to the contrary

In circumstances where status is unclear, or the couple had a civil
marriage, one may use the word It'ta woman, or it'ta di'ley his wife
and then 100+100 or 50+50 is according to the circumstances. It
strikes me that his would be more of a modern problem than a
historical one.

Wishing one and all a Ktivah V'chatimah Tovah

Rabbi Philip Heilbrunn

Further to Michael Bernet's list of names for the status of the
bride.

Maiden (literally "virgin") and indicates a first
marriage: betulta (bet-tav-vav-lamed-tav-aleph)
widow: the usual Aramaic word is
"Armalta" (aleph-reish-mem-lamed-tav-aleph)
divorcee: Is Matrachta (translation:matron)
(mem-tav-reish-chaf-tav-aleph)

Is the groom always simply known as chatan (chet-tav-nun), Yes, but
mostly called Hechatan irrespective of his pre-marital status

To what extent is the rule of 100 + 100 zuzin bride price for
a maiden, 50 + 50 for a widow or divorcee, universal across
communities?

Ans: The above are largely universal (in Orthodox).

Questions of halacha arise where a couple have been living together
before marriage or where it is known that the bride may indeed not
be a virgin. The lenient/benevolent (somewhat naive) view is
usually to give every first time bride the benefit of the doubt,
call her a betulah and give her 100+100 zuz. But there are serious
views to the contrary

In circumstances where status is unclear, or the couple had a civil
marriage, one may use the word It'ta woman, or it'ta di'ley his wife
and then 100+100 or 50+50 is according to the circumstances. It
strikes me that his would be more of a modern problem than a
historical one.

Wishing one and all a Ktivah V'chatimah Tovah

Rabbi Philip Heilbrunn

Zfat, Wednesday night

In search of my ggggrandfather’s grave: The sefer says that Rav
Eliyahu FRUCHTER died in Zfat on Rosh Chodesh Kislev, 1864 and was
laid to rest in the cave next to Rav Hatsadik Dov Ber of Avritsh and
near the Baal Levushe Srod. The Avritch bet kneset is still used
and stands a few meters away >from the Kosov shul. I found the cave!

Who was R’ Eliyahu and what is he to me? My grandmother Pesi Leah
HAGER [killed in Auschwitz in 1942] was the daughter of Avrohom
Chaim HAGER [d: 1886] who married Alte Chaya Gitse FRUCHTER [d:
1922], daughter of Rav Shmuel FRUCHTER [d: 1879.] He was the son of
R' Eliiyahu FRUCHTER, whose father was Shlomo [the first FRUCHTER –
given this patronymic by the Emperor of Austro-Hungary – whose story
of the three brothers I will write about soon.]

Shlomo was the son of Yosef and a nephew of Rav Shmelke of
Nikolsburg [Rav Shmuel Shmelke Levi, Ish HOROWITZ, 1726-1778, Chief
Rabbi of Moravia.] R’Shmelke was the son of Tsvi Hirsh HOROWITZ and
brother of Rav Pinchas HOROWITZ of Frankfurt-am-Main . Apparently
Shlomo FRUCHTER was the first Rav to settle in Obervisheve in
Marmorosh.

The cave has a small opening and I had to scrunch and hunker down to
get in [on the way out I found it was easier to back in/out]. There
are many horizontal and vertical headstones packed closely. Many
stones have the carvings time-eroded. Near the entrance there is a
stone with the name Eliyahu, but it had the wrong date. I felt like
a Jewish “Indiana Jones” but unlike him I did not come prepared with
a flashlight.

At the Kever of the ARI [Rav Yitskhak Luria; d: 1572], found a man
dispensing blessings to visitors. He is very knowledgeable about
this old Zfat cemetery. I commissioned him to search for R’Elyahu's
headstone.

This morning I spoke to him. He had been in the cave last night
searching with a lantern. So far, nothing. He discovered that the
cave had another entrance, which he had not been aware of. He and
his son will keep searching.

Additional note: R’ Shmuel FRUCHTER’s daughter, Malka, married
Nachman KAHANE [d:1841], son of Rav Yehuda KAHANE [the “Kuntras
Hasfekos,” Av Bes Din of Szighet, 1755-1819.] Malka’s sister,
Nissel, married my gggrandfather, Yaakov ROZENBERG [d: 1884 and
rests in Tiveria in the ‘Bet Olam shel talmidei HaBaal Shem Tov.]

Any readers who can contribute additional information on the
Fruchter antecedents: please write to me at sam@shoshan.com

Shmuel Shoshan
Zfat - Miami
mailto:Sam@Shoshan.com

Zfat, Wednesday night

In search of my ggggrandfather’s grave: The sefer says that Rav
Eliyahu FRUCHTER died in Zfat on Rosh Chodesh Kislev, 1864 and was
laid to rest in the cave next to Rav Hatsadik Dov Ber of Avritsh and
near the Baal Levushe Srod. The Avritch bet kneset is still used
and stands a few meters away >from the Kosov shul. I found the cave!

Who was R’ Eliyahu and what is he to me? My grandmother Pesi Leah
HAGER [killed in Auschwitz in 1942] was the daughter of Avrohom
Chaim HAGER [d: 1886] who married Alte Chaya Gitse FRUCHTER [d:
1922], daughter of Rav Shmuel FRUCHTER [d: 1879.] He was the son of
R' Eliiyahu FRUCHTER, whose father was Shlomo [the first FRUCHTER –
given this patronymic by the Emperor of Austro-Hungary – whose story
of the three brothers I will write about soon.]

Shlomo was the son of Yosef and a nephew of Rav Shmelke of
Nikolsburg [Rav Shmuel Shmelke Levi, Ish HOROWITZ, 1726-1778, Chief
Rabbi of Moravia.] R’Shmelke was the son of Tsvi Hirsh HOROWITZ and
brother of Rav Pinchas HOROWITZ of Frankfurt-am-Main . Apparently
Shlomo FRUCHTER was the first Rav to settle in Obervisheve in
Marmorosh.

The cave has a small opening and I had to scrunch and hunker down to
get in [on the way out I found it was easier to back in/out]. There
are many horizontal and vertical headstones packed closely. Many
stones have the carvings time-eroded. Near the entrance there is a
stone with the name Eliyahu, but it had the wrong date. I felt like
a Jewish “Indiana Jones” but unlike him I did not come prepared with
a flashlight.

At the Kever of the ARI [Rav Yitskhak Luria; d: 1572], found a man
dispensing blessings to visitors. He is very knowledgeable about
this old Zfat cemetery. I commissioned him to search for R’Elyahu's
headstone.

This morning I spoke to him. He had been in the cave last night
searching with a lantern. So far, nothing. He discovered that the
cave had another entrance, which he had not been aware of. He and
his son will keep searching.

Additional note: R’ Shmuel FRUCHTER’s daughter, Malka, married
Nachman KAHANE [d:1841], son of Rav Yehuda KAHANE [the “Kuntras
Hasfekos,” Av Bes Din of Szighet, 1755-1819.] Malka’s sister,
Nissel, married my gggrandfather, Yaakov ROZENBERG [d: 1884 and
rests in Tiveria in the ‘Bet Olam shel talmidei HaBaal Shem Tov.]

Any readers who can contribute additional information on the
Fruchter antecedents: please write to me at sam@shoshan.com

Shmuel Shoshan
Zfat - Miami
mailto:Sam@Shoshan.com

On 2002.08.27, Chaim Freedman <chaimjan@zahav.net.il> wrote,

Of course we need to take care with this material, some of
which may be superceded by later research. Very useful also
are the many biographies and descriptions of communities.

Chaim Freedman's caution that "course we need to take care with this
material, some of which may be superceded by later research," gives
rise to another alert when dealing with old material. We need to be
able to sort out fact >from prejudiced opinion. This quote on the
Vilna Gaon highlights the problem:

"Since Elijah had never studied at any yeshibah (sic), he had this
advantage, that his mind was never biased by prejudice or by the
perverted methods of study then in vogue."

The Vilna Gaon may have viewed a fresh mind as being advantageous,
but to call the method of study in European yehivos in the 18th
century "perverted" is nothing short of slander. Unfortunately,
this was written by a respect and renowned scholar, which just adds
to the problem.

Eliyahu Allon
mailto:eallon@peoplepc.com

On 2002.08.27, Chaim Freedman <chaimjan@zahav.net.il> wrote,

Of course we need to take care with this material, some of
which may be superceded by later research. Very useful also
are the many biographies and descriptions of communities.

Chaim Freedman's caution that "course we need to take care with this
material, some of which may be superceded by later research," gives
rise to another alert when dealing with old material. We need to be
able to sort out fact >from prejudiced opinion. This quote on the
Vilna Gaon highlights the problem:

"Since Elijah had never studied at any yeshibah (sic), he had this
advantage, that his mind was never biased by prejudice or by the
perverted methods of study then in vogue."

The Vilna Gaon may have viewed a fresh mind as being advantageous,
but to call the method of study in European yehivos in the 18th
century "perverted" is nothing short of slander. Unfortunately,
this was written by a respect and renowned scholar, which just adds
to the problem.

Eliyahu Allon
mailto:eallon@peoplepc.com

shalom i would like to have information about family geschlider or =
geszlider or gischlider

thanks a lot


shana tova for everybody

raymonde

shalom i would like to have information about family geschlider or =
geszlider or gischlider

thanks a lot


shana tova for everybody

raymonde

I thought that you may want to know that should you have missed any
messages >from our discussion group then they can be retrieved by
addressing an email without subject matter to
mailto:lyris@lyris.jewishgen.org
with a simple command in the body of the mail - get jcr-uk yyyymmdd.

For example, were you to want the messages >from 1st August 2002 the
command would be
get jcr-uk 20020801

or if you were to want them >from 1-10th August the command would be
get jcr-uk 20020801-20020810.

Louise Messik
Lead Moderator JCR-UK

I thought that you may want to know that should you have missed any
messages >from our discussion group then they can be retrieved by
addressing an email without subject matter to
mailto:lyris@lyris.jewishgen.org
with a simple command in the body of the mail - get jcr-uk yyyymmdd.

For example, were you to want the messages >from 1st August 2002 the
command would be
get jcr-uk 20020801

or if you were to want them >from 1-10th August the command would be
get jcr-uk 20020801-20020810.

Louise Messik
Lead Moderator JCR-UK

Thanks to Laurence Harris's message, I was able to access the 1901 census
last night. Have printed out a list of the GOLDMANs; Philip SPILLMAN; and
the SHEINBLOOM family >from Leeds. Contact me privately for a look-up. Did
not find my own family.
Linda Workman Schulein
California

Thanks to Laurence Harris's message, I was able to access the 1901 census
last night. Have printed out a list of the GOLDMANs; Philip SPILLMAN; and
the SHEINBLOOM family >from Leeds. Contact me privately for a look-up. Did
not find my own family.
Linda Workman Schulein
California

I wonder whether anyone has heard of The Path of Rightousness Synagogue in
the East End of London and if so, where was it situated?

According to an obituary, my great-grandfather was chazan there after 1833.
It might have been one of those many tiny shuls which were around in those
days.

Any help will be greatly appreciated.

With best wishes
Rosemary Wenzerul
dandr@wenzeds.freeserve.co.uk

I wonder whether anyone has heard of The Path of Rightousness Synagogue in
the East End of London and if so, where was it situated?

According to an obituary, my great-grandfather was chazan there after 1833.
It might have been one of those many tiny shuls which were around in those
days.

Any help will be greatly appreciated.

With best wishes
Rosemary Wenzerul
dandr@wenzeds.freeserve.co.uk

Shawn and all,

I'm responding to the list since this may help others with their own
research.

The answers in the 1901 Certificate:
- Number of Previous Children: 6
- How Many Now Living (in all): 7
(Does this mean that all of her children are living?)

Yes. There were 6 previous children plus the one who was just born, so
there are now 7 living in all.

The answers in the 1903 Certificate:
- Number of Previous Children: 8
- How Many Now Living (in all): 8
(Does this mean that a child has passed away?)

Yes. There were 8 previous children plus the one just born, which should
have been 9 living in all. Since only 8 is listed, indeed this should
mean one has died.

What does this say about the missing child, if
anything?

The child died before the 1903 birth and appears to have been born after
the 1901 birth. Check both the birth and death indexes >from the 1901
birth date through the 1903 birth date for the child's surname. Compare
the results and hopefully you'll find a name/age match (the death index
provides the age at death). Be sure to check the 1901 birth date itself
for the birth.. could have been a twin. If he was a twin and born
second, then he wouldn't have been reflected on the first twin's
certificate.

My grandmother's youngest sister had a twin brother who died at age 2.
I'm very close with my grandmother and her sisters, but I never knew there
was a twin until I started doing genealogy and someone thought to tell me.
My aunt has one picture of her and her twin brother, which I had the
pleasure of seeing for the first time last summer. Now I just need to get
a copy of it!

Anyway, you can order the birth and death index microfilms at your local
Family History Center. Visit
http://www.familysearch.org/Eng/Search/RG/guide/New_York18.asp#vital_records
and scroll down to New York City to find the appropriate film numbers.
Your local Family History Center will also have a copy of the microfilm
catalog, probably on CD, that you can use to look up film numbers.

Good luck!

Elise Friedman
Columbia, Maryland
JGS Maryland - http://www.jewishgen.org/jgs-maryland/

Researching:
PALEVSKY/PALEFSKY, POLLACK, DUBIN (Horodetz/Kobryn, Belarus);
LIPSCHITZ/LIFSHITZ (Brisk, Belarus);
EISNER, TAUB, SASS (Myszkowice/Tarnopol or Lemberg, Ukraine);
MILLER [or variants], TAUB (Dobromil/Byblo);
CHERNOCK/CHERNIACK (Russia/Poland); CHESIN (Mstislavl, Mogilev, Belarus);
FRIEDMAN/LEWIS [originally KIMYATEK or similar] (Katowice?, Poland)

Shawn and all,

I'm responding to the list since this may help others with their own
research.

The answers in the 1901 Certificate:
- Number of Previous Children: 6
- How Many Now Living (in all): 7
(Does this mean that all of her children are living?)

Yes. There were 6 previous children plus the one who was just born, so
there are now 7 living in all.

The answers in the 1903 Certificate:
- Number of Previous Children: 8
- How Many Now Living (in all): 8
(Does this mean that a child has passed away?)

Yes. There were 8 previous children plus the one just born, which should
have been 9 living in all. Since only 8 is listed, indeed this should
mean one has died.

What does this say about the missing child, if
anything?

The child died before the 1903 birth and appears to have been born after
the 1901 birth. Check both the birth and death indexes >from the 1901
birth date through the 1903 birth date for the child's surname. Compare
the results and hopefully you'll find a name/age match (the death index
provides the age at death). Be sure to check the 1901 birth date itself
for the birth.. could have been a twin. If he was a twin and born
second, then he wouldn't have been reflected on the first twin's
certificate.

My grandmother's youngest sister had a twin brother who died at age 2.
I'm very close with my grandmother and her sisters, but I never knew there
was a twin until I started doing genealogy and someone thought to tell me.
My aunt has one picture of her and her twin brother, which I had the
pleasure of seeing for the first time last summer. Now I just need to get
a copy of it!

Anyway, you can order the birth and death index microfilms at your local
Family History Center. Visit
http://www.familysearch.org/Eng/Search/RG/guide/New_York18.asp#vital_records
and scroll down to New York City to find the appropriate film numbers.
Your local Family History Center will also have a copy of the microfilm
catalog, probably on CD, that you can use to look up film numbers.

Good luck!

Elise Friedman
Columbia, Maryland
JGS Maryland - http://www.jewishgen.org/jgs-maryland/

Researching:
PALEVSKY/PALEFSKY, POLLACK, DUBIN (Horodetz/Kobryn, Belarus);
LIPSCHITZ/LIFSHITZ (Brisk, Belarus);
EISNER, TAUB, SASS (Myszkowice/Tarnopol or Lemberg, Ukraine);
MILLER [or variants], TAUB (Dobromil/Byblo);
CHERNOCK/CHERNIACK (Russia/Poland); CHESIN (Mstislavl, Mogilev, Belarus);
FRIEDMAN/LEWIS [originally KIMYATEK or similar] (Katowice?, Poland)

In a message dated 8/28/02 11:35:39 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
ronatuf@yahoo.com writes:

<< http://www.geocities.com/ronatuf >>
Thank you for an excellent source of Meanings of Names and
Hebrew /Yiddish, Soviet Adaptations and Diminutives.

Your web-site is an excellent aid to those of us who pore through
FHL films!

Sylvia Furshman Nusinov
President Emerita - Jewish Genealogical Society of Palm Beach County, Inc., Florida
Recipient of the IAJGS 21st Conference Achievement Award for Programming,
London 2001
Researching: FRUCHT [FURSHMAN] , MELC, DOROGOI - Lithuania: Vilcomir
[Ukmerge], Kovno [Kaunas], Vilna [Vilnius], Moletai. c.
1800-1945;Paris,France; EHRENPREIS - Austria: Lemburg [Lviv, Ukraine];
Sweden; AWNER [AVNER] - Austria: Lemburg [Lviv, Ukraine], England; Israel;
NUSINOV/NOUSSINOV - Russia: Jitomir - Volynia guberniya [Zhitomir, Ukraine]; Buenos Aires, Argentina;

MODERATOR NOTE: Search List truncated to six lines

In a message dated 8/28/02 11:35:39 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
ronatuf@yahoo.com writes:

<< http://www.geocities.com/ronatuf >>
Thank you for an excellent source of Meanings of Names and
Hebrew /Yiddish, Soviet Adaptations and Diminutives.

Your web-site is an excellent aid to those of us who pore through
FHL films!

Sylvia Furshman Nusinov
President Emerita - Jewish Genealogical Society of Palm Beach County, Inc., Florida
Recipient of the IAJGS 21st Conference Achievement Award for Programming,
London 2001
Researching: FRUCHT [FURSHMAN] , MELC, DOROGOI - Lithuania: Vilcomir
[Ukmerge], Kovno [Kaunas], Vilna [Vilnius], Moletai. c.
1800-1945;Paris,France; EHRENPREIS - Austria: Lemburg [Lviv, Ukraine];
Sweden; AWNER [AVNER] - Austria: Lemburg [Lviv, Ukraine], England; Israel;
NUSINOV/NOUSSINOV - Russia: Jitomir - Volynia guberniya [Zhitomir, Ukraine]; Buenos Aires, Argentina;

MODERATOR NOTE: Search List truncated to six lines

I wonder whether anyone has heard of The Path of Rightousness Synagogue in
the East End of London and if so, where was it situated?

According to an obituary, my great-grandfather was chazan there after 1833.
It might have been one of those many tiny shuls which were around in those
days.

Any help will be greatly appreciated.

With best wishes
Rosemary Wenzerul
dandr@wenzeds.freeserve.co.uk

I wonder whether anyone has heard of The Path of Rightousness Synagogue in
the East End of London and if so, where was it situated?

According to an obituary, my great-grandfather was chazan there after 1833.
It might have been one of those many tiny shuls which were around in those
days.

Any help will be greatly appreciated.

With best wishes
Rosemary Wenzerul
dandr@wenzeds.freeserve.co.uk