The following is my experience with name sharing.

Sometimes what you find on a tombstone does not actually reflect what the
person's name was originally. Remember, the tombstone and death certificate
are the responsibility of children or other relatives or even non-relatives
who may not know the correct information at the time of death or enough
genealogical information to understand the why's of certain names or who the
person was named for.

An example is my father whose name was William Samuel or Shmuel Velvel and
my grandfather who was Samuel or Shmuel. At the time of death, the rabbi
questioned how my father could have the same name as his father. My mother
certainly did not know and neither did I at the time.

My interest was piqued and I began to search for a reason. Interviewing
relatives and searching through numerous American and Lithuanian civil and
other records, I finally came to know how this came about.

1. My grandmother's maternal grandfather was named Shmuel and my father was
named after him and not his father Samuel/Shmuel. In fact, my father's
middle name Velvel was his paternal grandfather's name and my father was
known by the anglicized version of that name, William or Bill. This avoided
both he and his father being called Shmuel.

2. Further, my grandfather was known as Samuel/Shmuel in America, but was
actually known as Shloime in Lithuania which turned out to be the same name
as my grandmother's father Shloime Dovid who was still alive at the time my
father was born. My great grandfather was known as Dovid and my grandfather
was known as Shmuel thereby avoiding a conflict in being called by the same
name.

3. There are no Lithuanian records which show what my grandfather's full
name was. For all I know, Shmuel/Shloime was his middle name. For record
purposes, all the men in my family put their middle name as the name they
were known by which was a common practice.

Ann Rabinowitz
annrab@bellsouth.net

I realize that for an obit you need death date which I do not have-only
name and that she preceeded him in death. I need a look up for NYC for a
Feige(Fannie) Hoffman who preceeded Hyman Hoffman in death. According to
Hymans death certificate, he died in 1943 in Manhattan. They had six
children-Louis,Abraham,Benjamin,Irving,Harry and Anna
Please help me.

Rose Hoffman

When I was in Lapichi, Belarus, a few months ago--the small shtetl where
my grandfather was born--I was fortunate enough to be taken to the
forest where the German marched the Jews of Lapichi and then murdered
them. Unfortunately, I did not take good enough notes and now cannot
figure out >from what I have the date when that event occurred. Because
Lapichi is just one of hundreds, if not thousands, of places where this
happened, I wonder: does anyone know of a resource I might turn to
where I could learn the precise date when this happened in Lapichi?
Thanks.
David Gordon
dgordon@interaccess.com
Chicago, Illinois
Searching: HORWITZ—Smolevichi, Lapichi (Bobruisk?); GORDON—Vilna or
Kovno; GEBALOVITCH—Borisov; LEVIN—Vilna or Kovno; DRAZIN—Bobruisk;
BENENSON—Borisov

You probably know the difference between Shlemiel and Shlemazl:
Shlemiel is a guy who, carrying a tray of tea glasses, bumps into the carpet
and spills all the tray.
Shlemazl is the guy the tea fells on him
Shavua Tov :)
Shimon Barak

Has anyone had any success searching for Belarus records specifically for
the towns of Amdur (Indura), Grodno and Bialystok (now Poland)?

If so, would you please contact me privately? I would like to know how to
proceed.

Thank you,
Jeanne Gold
California, USA

Has anyone had any success searching for Ukrainian records specifically for
the towns of:

Lailve, Kiev Gubernia, Russia
[now Lelev, (which province?), Ukraine (5119/3011)]

Berdichev, Volhynia Gubernia, Russia
[now Berdychiv, Ukraine (4954/2835)]

Radomysl, Kiev Gubernia, Russia
[now Radomyshl', Zhitomir Oblast, Ukraine (5030/2914)]

Koryukovka, Tchernikov Gubernia, Russia
[now Kor'urovka, Chernigovskaya Oblast, Ukraine (5146/3216)]

Yanovka, Kherson Gubernia, Russia
[now Ivanovka, Odessa Oblast, Ukraine (4658/3028)]

Baranov, Kherson Gubernia, Russia
[now Baranovo, Odessa Oblast, Ukraine (4656/3024)]

Kocienno, (which Gubernia?), Russia
[is this now Khazhin, (which province?), Ukraine (4950/2838)]
[annotation: found passenger manifest for a ZACKON coming from
"Kocienno, W. Russia" and going to Chicago, IL -- the same as my
family. However, don't know if she is related or not. My family
had been in Berdichev and Radomysl. Khazhin is 5.1 miles SSE of
Berdichev and 53.1 miles SSW of Radomysl. I believe my branch was
originally in Berdichev and the 2 sons moved to Radomysl when
they married. This is my only rationale for thinking "Kocienno"
is the same as "Khazhin". Any comments or thoughts?]

If so, would you please contact me privately? I would like to know how to
proceed.

Would also appreciate any corrections to my identifications of the places.
I am still confused about the correct names of the places as they were
known when the event in question occurred versus the name the place is
known as now. I like to annotate with both.

Thank you,
Jeanne Gold
California, USA

The following is my experience with name sharing.

Sometimes what you find on a tombstone does not actually reflect what the
person's name was originally. Remember, the tombstone and death certificate
are the responsibility of children or other relatives or even non-relatives
who may not know the correct information at the time of death or enough
genealogical information to understand the why's of certain names or who the
person was named for.

An example is my father whose name was William Samuel or Shmuel Velvel and
my grandfather who was Samuel or Shmuel. At the time of death, the rabbi
questioned how my father could have the same name as his father. My mother
certainly did not know and neither did I at the time.

My interest was piqued and I began to search for a reason. Interviewing
relatives and searching through numerous American and Lithuanian civil and
other records, I finally came to know how this came about.

1. My grandmother's maternal grandfather was named Shmuel and my father was
named after him and not his father Samuel/Shmuel. In fact, my father's
middle name Velvel was his paternal grandfather's name and my father was
known by the anglicized version of that name, William or Bill. This avoided
both he and his father being called Shmuel.

2. Further, my grandfather was known as Samuel/Shmuel in America, but was
actually known as Shloime in Lithuania which turned out to be the same name
as my grandmother's father Shloime Dovid who was still alive at the time my
father was born. My great grandfather was known as Dovid and my grandfather
was known as Shmuel thereby avoiding a conflict in being called by the same
name.

3. There are no Lithuanian records which show what my grandfather's full
name was. For all I know, Shmuel/Shloime was his middle name. For record
purposes, all the men in my family put their middle name as the name they
were known by which was a common practice.

Ann Rabinowitz
annrab@bellsouth.net

I realize that for an obit you need death date which I do not have-only
name and that she preceeded him in death. I need a look up for NYC for a
Feige(Fannie) Hoffman who preceeded Hyman Hoffman in death. According to
Hymans death certificate, he died in 1943 in Manhattan. They had six
children-Louis,Abraham,Benjamin,Irving,Harry and Anna
Please help me.

Rose Hoffman

When I was in Lapichi, Belarus, a few months ago--the small shtetl where
my grandfather was born--I was fortunate enough to be taken to the
forest where the German marched the Jews of Lapichi and then murdered
them. Unfortunately, I did not take good enough notes and now cannot
figure out >from what I have the date when that event occurred. Because
Lapichi is just one of hundreds, if not thousands, of places where this
happened, I wonder: does anyone know of a resource I might turn to
where I could learn the precise date when this happened in Lapichi?
Thanks.
David Gordon
dgordon@interaccess.com
Chicago, Illinois
Searching: HORWITZ—Smolevichi, Lapichi (Bobruisk?); GORDON—Vilna or
Kovno; GEBALOVITCH—Borisov; LEVIN—Vilna or Kovno; DRAZIN—Bobruisk;
BENENSON—Borisov

You probably know the difference between Shlemiel and Shlemazl:
Shlemiel is a guy who, carrying a tray of tea glasses, bumps into the carpet
and spills all the tray.
Shlemazl is the guy the tea fells on him
Shavua Tov :)
Shimon Barak

Has anyone had any success searching for Belarus records specifically for
the towns of Amdur (Indura), Grodno and Bialystok (now Poland)?

If so, would you please contact me privately? I would like to know how to
proceed.

Thank you,
Jeanne Gold
California, USA

Has anyone had any success searching for Ukrainian records specifically for
the towns of:

Lailve, Kiev Gubernia, Russia
[now Lelev, (which province?), Ukraine (5119/3011)]

Berdichev, Volhynia Gubernia, Russia
[now Berdychiv, Ukraine (4954/2835)]

Radomysl, Kiev Gubernia, Russia
[now Radomyshl', Zhitomir Oblast, Ukraine (5030/2914)]

Koryukovka, Tchernikov Gubernia, Russia
[now Kor'urovka, Chernigovskaya Oblast, Ukraine (5146/3216)]

Yanovka, Kherson Gubernia, Russia
[now Ivanovka, Odessa Oblast, Ukraine (4658/3028)]

Baranov, Kherson Gubernia, Russia
[now Baranovo, Odessa Oblast, Ukraine (4656/3024)]

Kocienno, (which Gubernia?), Russia
[is this now Khazhin, (which province?), Ukraine (4950/2838)]
[annotation: found passenger manifest for a ZACKON coming from
"Kocienno, W. Russia" and going to Chicago, IL -- the same as my
family. However, don't know if she is related or not. My family
had been in Berdichev and Radomysl. Khazhin is 5.1 miles SSE of
Berdichev and 53.1 miles SSW of Radomysl. I believe my branch was
originally in Berdichev and the 2 sons moved to Radomysl when
they married. This is my only rationale for thinking "Kocienno"
is the same as "Khazhin". Any comments or thoughts?]

If so, would you please contact me privately? I would like to know how to
proceed.

Would also appreciate any corrections to my identifications of the places.
I am still confused about the correct names of the places as they were
known when the event in question occurred versus the name the place is
known as now. I like to annotate with both.

Thank you,
Jeanne Gold
California, USA

Dear Genners

I am researching the family trees of my four grandparents and the same for
my husband. We are both half Litvak and half Polish.

I have been able, to some degree, to move forward on our Litvak ancestors (I
know of some of their shtetls) but for both my paternal great-grandparents I
am totally stuck. Both sets of great grandparents are buried in Manchester
UK and all their children were born in Manchester and I know all the family
trees to the present day. Both sets of gr grandparents appear on the 1881
Manchester (UK) census and both sets say they are >from Poland (but no shtetl
is given. That is not a required criteria). One set is called Cohen so I
suppose that is a lost cause!!!. The other set of gr grandparents are
Rebecca (nee Grossman) and Chaim ESTRY. All it says is that Chaim ESTRY is
a glazier >from Poland!!!!! So far as I can find, Chaim never naturalised
so once again there is no chance of finding out the shtetl.

To make matters worse I do not know what their surname was in Poland. It
has been suggested it could have been Esther, Estere or something like that,
and some kind person informed me of the shtetls where these names are found
in numbers. The only other small clue is that on the census Sarah Grossman
("mother-in-law" it said) was living with them. I hope that (G'd forbid)
the person who filled in the census did not misunderstand Sarah Grossman's
position in the family!!!!!!

I know it is not possible to find a Cohen at No.1 Poland, but how can I find
my ESTRY ancestors. It is driving me mad!!!

Rica B Goldberg
Manchester (UK)

Still researching:
KAMENSHCHIK >from Yanova and Zeimiai, Lithuania; ESTRY >from Poland
(somewhere); FRIEDMAN >from ?? LEVY >from Sompolno and Krosniewice, Poland;
DIAMOND >from Kovno Gubernia > Manchester; SHLUZITEL or SHLESINGER or
SHELENGER >from Vabalninkas, Lithuania: BERLINSKI >from Charlottenburg in
Berlin >

A search in Google for 'buhusher' resulted in many
Kleizmer documents.
Stefaneshter means someone >from Stefanesht (Romania).

Ayana Kimron
SADETSKY/BARATS (Bessarabia)

--- Shawn Weil <weil.17@osu.edu> wrote:

Dear ZYLBERSZTEJNs' et al.

Are there any of us Jewishgenners who are familiar with ZYLBERSZTEJN of
Warsaw, >from the 19th century?
I would very much appreciate receiving any information with regard to any of
these Silver Stones :-))

Best regards.
Udi Cain. Jerusalem, Israel.
chaikin@netvision.net.il

I had previously asked members of this group about Scottish painter Walter
Goodman, with no results. Here is additional information about him that I
am hopeful will yield more information. I am trying to establish Goodman's
date of death and whether or not any descendants exist.

Walter Goodman was born on May 11, 1838. He was the son of the portrait
painter, Julia Goodman (1812-1906), nee Salaman, and her husband, Louis
Goodman (merchant) He is said to have been one of seven children, including
Edward John Goodman, one-time sub-editor of the "Daily Telegraph". Julia
was born in London on 11/9/1812 and was the eldest of 12 sons and 2
daughters of Simeon Kensington Salaman and Alice Cowen. She married Louis
in 1836 and died on December 30, 1906.

Walter is known to have spent 5 years in Cuba before coming o the US in
1870. He published a book in London recounting his adventures in 1873. I
believe taht Mr. Goodman gained some recognition as an illustrator, possibly
of children's books.

I have been unable to ascertain the date of his death. One record indicates
1889, but I have other indications that he was still alive at the date of
his mother's death in 1906.

Dear list!

I would like to thank to everyone who send me a message!

Thanks to a lot of messages, that I reseived >from JewishGenners and other
nice people around the globe, I understand for the first time where this
relative lived or worked in Buenos Aires, and that he indeed lived there.
I discovered that "Valentin Gomez" is a street in Buenos Aires, while
"Darwin" is a part of very old telephon number in Buenos Aires.
I wrote personal thanks to all those nice people who wrote me, and to be
sure I didn't missed any of them, I send my great thanks to the list!

Best regards,

Mark Dvorkin
Jerusalem, Israel

Among Sephardim (at least Ottoman Empire Sephardim), it was not uncommon for
a son to have, as his second personal name, the first name of his father.
Thus, the second name of my grandfather Victor (Haim) Moise PAPOUCHADO came

from his father Moise/Maurice PAPOUCHADO. And my dad Morris Ben TARANTO is

named in part for his father Leon Bension TARANTO. Similar examples
throughout my family and other Sephardi families.

I can see why such a practice became commonplace since historically a son's
name commonly incorporated the name of his father, e.g., Rabban Simeon ben
Gamaliel II (b. bef 100 C.E. - d. aft 148 C.E.) the Nasi of the
Patriarchate; Maimon ben Joseph (ca 1100-1165); his son Moshe ben Maimon
(1135-1204) aka Maimonides; and Maimonides' son Abraham ben Moses ben Maimon
(1186-1237).

Among Levantine Sephardim, the first born son was generally named for the
paternal grandfather. If the paternal grandfather was still living, as was
often the case, conferring his name on a grandson was deemed an honor. In
looking at information for many thousands of Sephardim >from the Turkey,
Greece and nearby areas, I have never seen an instance in which a living
father gave to his son as a first name his (the father's) own first name. I
suspect that with the advent of modernity this too has occurred. But in the
past the son's first name came >from the father's first name only when the
father died before the birth of the son.

Leon Taranto
Rockville, MD

<< Subject: Re: Father and son sharing a name
From: "Larry E. Oppenheimer" <leoppen@earthlink.net>
Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 12:14:39 GMT
X-Message-Number: 15

This practice may have been more common than you think. I have documents
relating to my family >from the Rheinland-Pfaltz area of Germany, dating

from around 1800, that contain several examples of a son having the same

name as his father. Aslo, no (other?) indication that they were
Sephardi. >>

Hi list
Does anyone have access to the 1920 census for Manhattan, NY, that would
be willing to do a look up for me. Thank you all in advance. please
respond to me privately
renee1056@juno.com
Shalom
Renee Marcus, Spring Hill, Fl.
searching FRAYERMAN, FREIERMAN, FREIMAN, BOSKIN, Mogilev to NYC

Dear Genners

I am researching the family trees of my four grandparents and the same for
my husband. We are both half Litvak and half Polish.

I have been able, to some degree, to move forward on our Litvak ancestors (I
know of some of their shtetls) but for both my paternal great-grandparents I
am totally stuck. Both sets of great grandparents are buried in Manchester
UK and all their children were born in Manchester and I know all the family
trees to the present day. Both sets of gr grandparents appear on the 1881
Manchester (UK) census and both sets say they are >from Poland (but no shtetl
is given. That is not a required criteria). One set is called Cohen so I
suppose that is a lost cause!!!. The other set of gr grandparents are
Rebecca (nee Grossman) and Chaim ESTRY. All it says is that Chaim ESTRY is
a glazier >from Poland!!!!! So far as I can find, Chaim never naturalised
so once again there is no chance of finding out the shtetl.

To make matters worse I do not know what their surname was in Poland. It
has been suggested it could have been Esther, Estere or something like that,
and some kind person informed me of the shtetls where these names are found
in numbers. The only other small clue is that on the census Sarah Grossman
("mother-in-law" it said) was living with them. I hope that (G'd forbid)
the person who filled in the census did not misunderstand Sarah Grossman's
position in the family!!!!!!

I know it is not possible to find a Cohen at No.1 Poland, but how can I find
my ESTRY ancestors. It is driving me mad!!!

Rica B Goldberg
Manchester (UK)

Still researching:
KAMENSHCHIK >from Yanova and Zeimiai, Lithuania; ESTRY >from Poland
(somewhere); FRIEDMAN >from ?? LEVY >from Sompolno and Krosniewice, Poland;
DIAMOND >from Kovno Gubernia > Manchester; SHLUZITEL or SHLESINGER or
SHELENGER >from Vabalninkas, Lithuania: BERLINSKI >from Charlottenburg in
Berlin >