Date   

Kosher H-SIG and Jiddish #hungary

Gabor Hirsch <hirsch@...>
 

It seems that tastes are quite different, to be quite honest I preferred
H-SIG as it was in the earlier time, when beside strict genealogy, there
were also some discussion or information of Holocaust, kitchen or
recipes and other and the opinion of the moderator were as separate
contributions and not as comments added to contributions of the members,
but tastes are different. The question is, is it possible to satisfy
both sides by having a
glatt kosher genealogy as well as a bit treffe ones too by marking them
in the subject line, so that it can be filtered out by the majority of
the browser, so the pure genealogists are not offended by trivial
messages. I believe there are no Forum for Hungarian Holocaust related
themes or information. It started sometimes on the ?Magyar Zsido Home
page but in my opinion it was everything but not satisfying.

There were several contributions regarding Yiddish language. I  don't
doubt that many communities with a high rate of the Jewish population
and with professions where you didn't have to deal with non Jews,
Yiddish was important and the language to speak, but as sales or
tradesman with a dominantly not Jewish clientele or a student in
gymnasium you had to speak in Hungary after Trianon
Hungarian. Nobody I knew >from my Mother or Father's family spoke
Yiddish, not even - if I am correct - my aunt who emigrated with her
husband in 1934 to Israel and as I heard they were quite unhappy because
their Ivrit was also very poor. In my hometown with about 50000
inhabitants the Neolog community counted around 1250 the orthodox some
800 persons. A friend >from an orthodox family mentioned (he visited the
gymnasium), that they spoke at
home Hungarian only. It might have been different in smaller orthodox
oriented communities. The only time I missed Yiddish was in
Auschwitz/Birkenau, where as late comers to the sufferings we were not
fully accepted by the earlier inmates - the Hungarian (non
religious) Jews represented the lowest level of the hierarchy -, the
religious ones - even >from Hungary - were better accepted.

Best regards
Gabor Hirsch

Tom Venetianer schrieb:

To all who wish a strictly kosher H-sig, don't be so quick to throw
the stones on me. This was a thread which circulated recently on this
forum. I feel it very much pertinent, actually this is what makes
this forum more human. Please notice that our dear moderator called
the discussion, which was totally out of the subject of genealogy,
"scintillating".

Ease up folks :-)

Tom Venetianer <mailto:tom.vene@uol.com.br>
Sao Paulo - Brazil


Kosher H-SIG and Jiddish #hungary

Gabor Hirsch <hirsch@...>
 

It seems that tastes are quite different, to be quite honest I preferred
H-SIG as it was in the earlier time, when beside strict genealogy, there
were also some discussion or information of Holocaust, kitchen or
recipes and other and the opinion of the moderator were as separate
contributions and not as comments added to contributions of the members,
but tastes are different. The question is, is it possible to satisfy
both sides by having a
glatt kosher genealogy as well as a bit treffe ones too by marking them
in the subject line, so that it can be filtered out by the majority of
the browser, so the pure genealogists are not offended by trivial
messages. I believe there are no Forum for Hungarian Holocaust related
themes or information. It started sometimes on the ?Magyar Zsido Home
page but in my opinion it was everything but not satisfying.

There were several contributions regarding Yiddish language. I  don't
doubt that many communities with a high rate of the Jewish population
and with professions where you didn't have to deal with non Jews,
Yiddish was important and the language to speak, but as sales or
tradesman with a dominantly not Jewish clientele or a student in
gymnasium you had to speak in Hungary after Trianon
Hungarian. Nobody I knew >from my Mother or Father's family spoke
Yiddish, not even - if I am correct - my aunt who emigrated with her
husband in 1934 to Israel and as I heard they were quite unhappy because
their Ivrit was also very poor. In my hometown with about 50000
inhabitants the Neolog community counted around 1250 the orthodox some
800 persons. A friend >from an orthodox family mentioned (he visited the
gymnasium), that they spoke at
home Hungarian only. It might have been different in smaller orthodox
oriented communities. The only time I missed Yiddish was in
Auschwitz/Birkenau, where as late comers to the sufferings we were not
fully accepted by the earlier inmates - the Hungarian (non
religious) Jews represented the lowest level of the hierarchy -, the
religious ones - even >from Hungary - were better accepted.

Best regards
Gabor Hirsch

Tom Venetianer schrieb:

To all who wish a strictly kosher H-sig, don't be so quick to throw
the stones on me. This was a thread which circulated recently on this
forum. I feel it very much pertinent, actually this is what makes
this forum more human. Please notice that our dear moderator called
the discussion, which was totally out of the subject of genealogy,
"scintillating".

Ease up folks :-)

Tom Venetianer <mailto:tom.vene@uol.com.br>
Sao Paulo - Brazil


Kosher H-SIG and Jiddish #hungary

Gabor Hirsch <hirsch@...>
 

It seems that tastes are quite different, to be quite honest I preferred
H-SIG as it was in the earlier time, when beside strict genealogy, there
were also some discussion or information of Holocaust, kitchen or
recipes and other and the opinion of the moderator were as separate
contributions and not as comments added to contributions of the members,
but tastes are different. The question is, is it possible to satisfy
both sides by having a
glatt kosher genealogy as well as a bit treffe ones too by marking them
in the subject line, so that it can be filtered out by the majority of
the browser, so the pure genealogists are not offended by trivial
messages. I believe there are no Forum for Hungarian Holocaust related
themes or information. It started sometimes on the ?Magyar Zsido Home
page but in my opinion it was everything but not satisfying.

There were several contributions regarding Yiddish language. I  don't
doubt that many communities with a high rate of the Jewish population
and with professions where you didn't have to deal with non Jews,
Yiddish was important and the language to speak, but as sales or
tradesman with a dominantly not Jewish clientele or a student in
gymnasium you had to speak in Hungary after Trianon
Hungarian. Nobody I knew >from my Mother or Father's family spoke
Yiddish, not even - if I am correct - my aunt who emigrated with her
husband in 1934 to Israel and as I heard they were quite unhappy because
their Ivrit was also very poor. In my hometown with about 50000
inhabitants the Neolog community counted around 1250 the orthodox some
800 persons. A friend >from an orthodox family mentioned (he visited the
gymnasium), that they spoke at
home Hungarian only. It might have been different in smaller orthodox
oriented communities. The only time I missed Yiddish was in
Auschwitz/Birkenau, where as late comers to the sufferings we were not
fully accepted by the earlier inmates - the Hungarian (non
religious) Jews represented the lowest level of the hierarchy -, the
religious ones - even >from Hungary - were better accepted.

Best regards
Gabor Hirsch

Tom Venetianer schrieb:

To all who wish a strictly kosher H-sig, don't be so quick to throw
the stones on me. This was a thread which circulated recently on this
forum. I feel it very much pertinent, actually this is what makes
this forum more human. Please notice that our dear moderator called
the discussion, which was totally out of the subject of genealogy,
"scintillating".

Ease up folks :-)

Tom Venetianer <mailto:tom.vene@uol.com.br>
Sao Paulo - Brazil


Hungary SIG #Hungary Kosher H-SIG and Jiddish #hungary

Gabor Hirsch <hirsch@...>
 

It seems that tastes are quite different, to be quite honest I preferred
H-SIG as it was in the earlier time, when beside strict genealogy, there
were also some discussion or information of Holocaust, kitchen or
recipes and other and the opinion of the moderator were as separate
contributions and not as comments added to contributions of the members,
but tastes are different. The question is, is it possible to satisfy
both sides by having a
glatt kosher genealogy as well as a bit treffe ones too by marking them
in the subject line, so that it can be filtered out by the majority of
the browser, so the pure genealogists are not offended by trivial
messages. I believe there are no Forum for Hungarian Holocaust related
themes or information. It started sometimes on the ?Magyar Zsido Home
page but in my opinion it was everything but not satisfying.

There were several contributions regarding Yiddish language. I  don't
doubt that many communities with a high rate of the Jewish population
and with professions where you didn't have to deal with non Jews,
Yiddish was important and the language to speak, but as sales or
tradesman with a dominantly not Jewish clientele or a student in
gymnasium you had to speak in Hungary after Trianon
Hungarian. Nobody I knew >from my Mother or Father's family spoke
Yiddish, not even - if I am correct - my aunt who emigrated with her
husband in 1934 to Israel and as I heard they were quite unhappy because
their Ivrit was also very poor. In my hometown with about 50000
inhabitants the Neolog community counted around 1250 the orthodox some
800 persons. A friend >from an orthodox family mentioned (he visited the
gymnasium), that they spoke at
home Hungarian only. It might have been different in smaller orthodox
oriented communities. The only time I missed Yiddish was in
Auschwitz/Birkenau, where as late comers to the sufferings we were not
fully accepted by the earlier inmates - the Hungarian (non
religious) Jews represented the lowest level of the hierarchy -, the
religious ones - even >from Hungary - were better accepted.

Best regards
Gabor Hirsch

Tom Venetianer schrieb:

To all who wish a strictly kosher H-sig, don't be so quick to throw
the stones on me. This was a thread which circulated recently on this
forum. I feel it very much pertinent, actually this is what makes
this forum more human. Please notice that our dear moderator called
the discussion, which was totally out of the subject of genealogy,
"scintillating".

Ease up folks :-)

Tom Venetianer <mailto:tom.vene@uol.com.br>
Sao Paulo - Brazil


Hungary SIG #Hungary Kosher H-SIG and Jiddish #hungary

Gabor Hirsch <hirsch@...>
 

It seems that tastes are quite different, to be quite honest I preferred
H-SIG as it was in the earlier time, when beside strict genealogy, there
were also some discussion or information of Holocaust, kitchen or
recipes and other and the opinion of the moderator were as separate
contributions and not as comments added to contributions of the members,
but tastes are different. The question is, is it possible to satisfy
both sides by having a
glatt kosher genealogy as well as a bit treffe ones too by marking them
in the subject line, so that it can be filtered out by the majority of
the browser, so the pure genealogists are not offended by trivial
messages. I believe there are no Forum for Hungarian Holocaust related
themes or information. It started sometimes on the ?Magyar Zsido Home
page but in my opinion it was everything but not satisfying.

There were several contributions regarding Yiddish language. I  don't
doubt that many communities with a high rate of the Jewish population
and with professions where you didn't have to deal with non Jews,
Yiddish was important and the language to speak, but as sales or
tradesman with a dominantly not Jewish clientele or a student in
gymnasium you had to speak in Hungary after Trianon
Hungarian. Nobody I knew >from my Mother or Father's family spoke
Yiddish, not even - if I am correct - my aunt who emigrated with her
husband in 1934 to Israel and as I heard they were quite unhappy because
their Ivrit was also very poor. In my hometown with about 50000
inhabitants the Neolog community counted around 1250 the orthodox some
800 persons. A friend >from an orthodox family mentioned (he visited the
gymnasium), that they spoke at
home Hungarian only. It might have been different in smaller orthodox
oriented communities. The only time I missed Yiddish was in
Auschwitz/Birkenau, where as late comers to the sufferings we were not
fully accepted by the earlier inmates - the Hungarian (non
religious) Jews represented the lowest level of the hierarchy -, the
religious ones - even >from Hungary - were better accepted.

Best regards
Gabor Hirsch

Tom Venetianer schrieb:

To all who wish a strictly kosher H-sig, don't be so quick to throw
the stones on me. This was a thread which circulated recently on this
forum. I feel it very much pertinent, actually this is what makes
this forum more human. Please notice that our dear moderator called
the discussion, which was totally out of the subject of genealogy,
"scintillating".

Ease up folks :-)

Tom Venetianer <mailto:tom.vene@uol.com.br>
Sao Paulo - Brazil


Hungary SIG #Hungary Kosher H-SIG and Jiddish #hungary

Gabor Hirsch <hirsch@...>
 

It seems that tastes are quite different, to be quite honest I preferred
H-SIG as it was in the earlier time, when beside strict genealogy, there
were also some discussion or information of Holocaust, kitchen or
recipes and other and the opinion of the moderator were as separate
contributions and not as comments added to contributions of the members,
but tastes are different. The question is, is it possible to satisfy
both sides by having a
glatt kosher genealogy as well as a bit treffe ones too by marking them
in the subject line, so that it can be filtered out by the majority of
the browser, so the pure genealogists are not offended by trivial
messages. I believe there are no Forum for Hungarian Holocaust related
themes or information. It started sometimes on the ?Magyar Zsido Home
page but in my opinion it was everything but not satisfying.

There were several contributions regarding Yiddish language. I  don't
doubt that many communities with a high rate of the Jewish population
and with professions where you didn't have to deal with non Jews,
Yiddish was important and the language to speak, but as sales or
tradesman with a dominantly not Jewish clientele or a student in
gymnasium you had to speak in Hungary after Trianon
Hungarian. Nobody I knew >from my Mother or Father's family spoke
Yiddish, not even - if I am correct - my aunt who emigrated with her
husband in 1934 to Israel and as I heard they were quite unhappy because
their Ivrit was also very poor. In my hometown with about 50000
inhabitants the Neolog community counted around 1250 the orthodox some
800 persons. A friend >from an orthodox family mentioned (he visited the
gymnasium), that they spoke at
home Hungarian only. It might have been different in smaller orthodox
oriented communities. The only time I missed Yiddish was in
Auschwitz/Birkenau, where as late comers to the sufferings we were not
fully accepted by the earlier inmates - the Hungarian (non
religious) Jews represented the lowest level of the hierarchy -, the
religious ones - even >from Hungary - were better accepted.

Best regards
Gabor Hirsch

Tom Venetianer schrieb:

To all who wish a strictly kosher H-sig, don't be so quick to throw
the stones on me. This was a thread which circulated recently on this
forum. I feel it very much pertinent, actually this is what makes
this forum more human. Please notice that our dear moderator called
the discussion, which was totally out of the subject of genealogy,
"scintillating".

Ease up folks :-)

Tom Venetianer <mailto:tom.vene@uol.com.br>
Sao Paulo - Brazil


Re: * don't throw the first stone #hungary

Faith Gardner <ragfhg@...>
 

Yes, maybe, but isn't all this wonderful e-mail about language, culture,
history, even cooking, particularly when it's accompanied by very human
personal family stories, even more human and scintillating...and more,
importantly, related to Hungarian genealogy and family history. Wonderful
e-mails...making up for the lack of them just a few days ago!

Appreciatively,

Faith


[Original Message]
From: Tom Venetianer <tom.vene@uol.com.br>
To: Hungarian SIG <h-sig@lyris.jewishgen.org>
Date: 4/4/01 1:43:58 AM
Subject: * don't throw the first stone

To all who wish a strictly kosher H-sig, don't be so quick to throw
the stones on me. This was a thread which circulated recently on this
forum. I feel it very much pertinent, actually this is what makes
this forum more human. Please notice that our dear moderator called
the discussion, which was totally out of the subject of genealogy,
"scintillating".

Ease up folks :-)

<quote>
>| Date: Sun, 29 Oct 2000 10:10:27 -0500
>| Subject: H-jewish cooking
>|
>| Can anyone in our wonderful world-wide community give me
the title of a
>| good Hungarian-Jewish cookbook (in English)?? Good food is
definitely part
>| of our heritage, and while we probably all have
hand-written recipes, my
>| daughters are eager to have a real cook book. Sincerely,
>|
>|
>| mod. several months ago we had a scintalling discussion
about Hungarian cooking. You can find the
>| messages for that discussion in the H-sig archives on our
web page www.Jewishgen.org/Hungary.LS
--
-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-. -.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-. -.-.-
Tom Venetianer <mailto:tom.vene@uol.com.br>
Sao Paulo - Brazil

This SIG (h-sig@lyris.jewishgen.org) is hosted by
JewishGen: The Home of Jewish Genealogy
Visit our home page at http://www.jewishgen.org
To post a message to this mailing list please address it to
<h-sig@lyris.jewishgen.org>

Visit our website at http://www.jewishgen.org/hungary/ , and remember the
H-SIG message archives at
http://www.jewishgen.org/wconnect/wc.isa?jg~jgsys~sigspop


Re: * don't throw the first stone #hungary

farran <farran@...>
 

Bill Farran wrote:

I have a copy of a Jewish-Hungarian cookbook by Zoriaca Herbst-Krausz call "Old Jewish
Dishes" published Ii believe by Corvina(?) . It was printed in Hungary in 1991 by Kner
Printing House , Bekescsaba. It is full of old rcipes.


Hungary SIG #Hungary RE: * don't throw the first stone #hungary

Faith Gardner <ragfhg@...>
 

Yes, maybe, but isn't all this wonderful e-mail about language, culture,
history, even cooking, particularly when it's accompanied by very human
personal family stories, even more human and scintillating...and more,
importantly, related to Hungarian genealogy and family history. Wonderful
e-mails...making up for the lack of them just a few days ago!

Appreciatively,

Faith


[Original Message]
From: Tom Venetianer <tom.vene@uol.com.br>
To: Hungarian SIG <h-sig@lyris.jewishgen.org>
Date: 4/4/01 1:43:58 AM
Subject: * don't throw the first stone

To all who wish a strictly kosher H-sig, don't be so quick to throw
the stones on me. This was a thread which circulated recently on this
forum. I feel it very much pertinent, actually this is what makes
this forum more human. Please notice that our dear moderator called
the discussion, which was totally out of the subject of genealogy,
"scintillating".

Ease up folks :-)

<quote>
>| Date: Sun, 29 Oct 2000 10:10:27 -0500
>| Subject: H-jewish cooking
>|
>| Can anyone in our wonderful world-wide community give me
the title of a
>| good Hungarian-Jewish cookbook (in English)?? Good food is
definitely part
>| of our heritage, and while we probably all have
hand-written recipes, my
>| daughters are eager to have a real cook book. Sincerely,
>|
>|
>| mod. several months ago we had a scintalling discussion
about Hungarian cooking. You can find the
>| messages for that discussion in the H-sig archives on our
web page www.Jewishgen.org/Hungary.LS
--
-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-. -.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-. -.-.-
Tom Venetianer <mailto:tom.vene@uol.com.br>
Sao Paulo - Brazil

This SIG (h-sig@lyris.jewishgen.org) is hosted by
JewishGen: The Home of Jewish Genealogy
Visit our home page at http://www.jewishgen.org
To post a message to this mailing list please address it to
<h-sig@lyris.jewishgen.org>

Visit our website at http://www.jewishgen.org/hungary/ , and remember the
H-SIG message archives at
http://www.jewishgen.org/wconnect/wc.isa?jg~jgsys~sigspop


Hungary SIG #Hungary Re: * don't throw the first stone #hungary

farran <farran@...>
 

Bill Farran wrote:

I have a copy of a Jewish-Hungarian cookbook by Zoriaca Herbst-Krausz call "Old Jewish
Dishes" published Ii believe by Corvina(?) . It was printed in Hungary in 1991 by Kner
Printing House , Bekescsaba. It is full of old rcipes.


Re: Muszikas and Pesach #hungary

PGergay@...
 

In a message dated 4/3/01 10:25:37 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
korman3@ix.netcom.com writes:

<< but if the wine
is sweet, we skip the sugar or honey. >>

Dear Debbi,

You are obviously a woman with high and discerning standards; because, in my
humble opinion, this is the way it should be done---and this is the way it
was done generally by Jews who were, either German-speaking, or inhabiting
the Carpathian basin (but not by those who lived to the North and East of the
basin ---I suppose they have had a "sweet tooth"...)

It is also obvious that you have excellent tastes/standards in music, too...
Clearly you are not of the school which claims that you have to be of a
certain ethnic heritage to play certain musical pieces well----and >from the
heart... In this country, this has been a matter of a sharp divergence of
opinion, ever since the 19th century, with some folks claiming that you had
to be a Negro (the term used then) to be able to play jazz well. In the 20th
century this argument was, unfortunately, revived with the successful film
in the seventies "The Sting." What gave the impetus to the controversy here
was the contention that the "Ragtime" music in it was also "ripped-off" by
white people. Well, my point is that when a non-Jewish childhood friend of
mine gave me a cassette of Marta Sebestyen and Muzsikas (in this case "z"
comes before the"s" ---sorry, Debbi) performing traditional Hungarian-Jewish
pieces (in Hungarian), I was so moved by the phrasing and pristine beauty of
the songs that it did not even occur to me that none of the performers
happened to be Jewish... (Although the jury is still out as to who can sing
"Szol a Kakas Mar" more mesmerizingly, Marta Sebestyen or Louis
Schonfeld....:-(
Unfortunately, I cannot finish on a happy note. Hungary today, which as a
relatively new democratic country still tries to find its way to treat its
minorities in a fair and civilized manner by according them dignity and
opportunities, still gets lost in adopting those Western principles which are
known here as "diversity." For instance, music teachers are encouraged to
assign to students the preparation and performing of pieces at their
graduation concert, which are in accordance with their ethnic background.
Thus, Gypsy students are usually given one of three famous Gypsy concertos,
Jews are normally assigned Bruch's Kol Nidre---and most
ridiculously----children of Hungary's rapidly increasing Chinese minority are
asked to play a piece of famous Chinese music about the Yang-Tse river (a
favorite of Chairman Mao, whose China the parents of these children
left....). This is, of course, "political correctness" of the worst kind...
My point is that I see a kinship between those who say that you have to be
black to play jazz or ragtime and those who feel that you have to be Jewish
to play Bruch's Kol Nidre. (By the way, Bruch was a non-Jewish German...)
Well, Debbi, you made me meander again....On the other hand, I hope that I
did not embarrass you with my compliments, either. As Mark Twain once said:
"Give me a good compliment and I can live off it for three months." So,
please do not expect a compliment >from me for another three months. I hope
you now feel relieved!

Regards,

Peter A. Gerry
San Francisco, CA


Re: H-sig: language & music #hungary

PGergay@...
 

In a message dated 4/3/01 10:28:29 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
ragfhg@earthlink.net writes:

<<
Did "Jewish" for "mother tongue" mean Hebrew or Yiddish to the census
takers in 1920? Would she have spoken one of them, or was that an
automatic response to "Jewish" on the part of the census taker?
As far as illiteracy, that probably means illiterate in English. At the
time she grew up in Hungary, would she have received any kind of education
at all, or was that only for boys?

Any answers will be helpful...I find this all fascinating. I admire that
very brave woman so much for the life she lived...her descendants have
certainly gone farther and wider than she could have possibly dreamed.

Thanks,

Faith
N.H. >>

Dear Faith,
Before I answer you, let me say that I found your closing sentence
eloquent, moving and felt that it reflects a great deal of understanding on
your part !

Now to your 4 questions/sentences:

First question: No, but please understand that the American
censustaker was probably unfamiliar with any of the foreign languages she
spoke....
Second question-first part: Possibly. (Certainly she could have
understood a smattering of Hebrew; but this is, of course, far >from
"speaking it".)
Second question-second part: Most likely; there are plenty of examples
of this everywhere; in fact, it has a literature of its own.
Third Statement: ABSOLUTELY NOT!!! I have written on this subject
extensively---including on this forum-----so, I do not think that I need to
repeat myself.
Fourth question: Very,very unlikely! (What you may have in mind
applies to Jews living in countries other than the Austro-Hungarian Empire).

Regards,

Peter A. Gergay
San Francisco,CA


Hungary SIG #Hungary Re: Muszikas and Pesach #hungary

PGergay@...
 

In a message dated 4/3/01 10:25:37 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
korman3@ix.netcom.com writes:

<< but if the wine
is sweet, we skip the sugar or honey. >>

Dear Debbi,

You are obviously a woman with high and discerning standards; because, in my
humble opinion, this is the way it should be done---and this is the way it
was done generally by Jews who were, either German-speaking, or inhabiting
the Carpathian basin (but not by those who lived to the North and East of the
basin ---I suppose they have had a "sweet tooth"...)

It is also obvious that you have excellent tastes/standards in music, too...
Clearly you are not of the school which claims that you have to be of a
certain ethnic heritage to play certain musical pieces well----and >from the
heart... In this country, this has been a matter of a sharp divergence of
opinion, ever since the 19th century, with some folks claiming that you had
to be a Negro (the term used then) to be able to play jazz well. In the 20th
century this argument was, unfortunately, revived with the successful film
in the seventies "The Sting." What gave the impetus to the controversy here
was the contention that the "Ragtime" music in it was also "ripped-off" by
white people. Well, my point is that when a non-Jewish childhood friend of
mine gave me a cassette of Marta Sebestyen and Muzsikas (in this case "z"
comes before the"s" ---sorry, Debbi) performing traditional Hungarian-Jewish
pieces (in Hungarian), I was so moved by the phrasing and pristine beauty of
the songs that it did not even occur to me that none of the performers
happened to be Jewish... (Although the jury is still out as to who can sing
"Szol a Kakas Mar" more mesmerizingly, Marta Sebestyen or Louis
Schonfeld....:-(
Unfortunately, I cannot finish on a happy note. Hungary today, which as a
relatively new democratic country still tries to find its way to treat its
minorities in a fair and civilized manner by according them dignity and
opportunities, still gets lost in adopting those Western principles which are
known here as "diversity." For instance, music teachers are encouraged to
assign to students the preparation and performing of pieces at their
graduation concert, which are in accordance with their ethnic background.
Thus, Gypsy students are usually given one of three famous Gypsy concertos,
Jews are normally assigned Bruch's Kol Nidre---and most
ridiculously----children of Hungary's rapidly increasing Chinese minority are
asked to play a piece of famous Chinese music about the Yang-Tse river (a
favorite of Chairman Mao, whose China the parents of these children
left....). This is, of course, "political correctness" of the worst kind...
My point is that I see a kinship between those who say that you have to be
black to play jazz or ragtime and those who feel that you have to be Jewish
to play Bruch's Kol Nidre. (By the way, Bruch was a non-Jewish German...)
Well, Debbi, you made me meander again....On the other hand, I hope that I
did not embarrass you with my compliments, either. As Mark Twain once said:
"Give me a good compliment and I can live off it for three months." So,
please do not expect a compliment >from me for another three months. I hope
you now feel relieved!

Regards,

Peter A. Gerry
San Francisco, CA


Hungary SIG #Hungary Re: H-sig: language & music #hungary

PGergay@...
 

In a message dated 4/3/01 10:28:29 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
ragfhg@earthlink.net writes:

<<
Did "Jewish" for "mother tongue" mean Hebrew or Yiddish to the census
takers in 1920? Would she have spoken one of them, or was that an
automatic response to "Jewish" on the part of the census taker?
As far as illiteracy, that probably means illiterate in English. At the
time she grew up in Hungary, would she have received any kind of education
at all, or was that only for boys?

Any answers will be helpful...I find this all fascinating. I admire that
very brave woman so much for the life she lived...her descendants have
certainly gone farther and wider than she could have possibly dreamed.

Thanks,

Faith
N.H. >>

Dear Faith,
Before I answer you, let me say that I found your closing sentence
eloquent, moving and felt that it reflects a great deal of understanding on
your part !

Now to your 4 questions/sentences:

First question: No, but please understand that the American
censustaker was probably unfamiliar with any of the foreign languages she
spoke....
Second question-first part: Possibly. (Certainly she could have
understood a smattering of Hebrew; but this is, of course, far >from
"speaking it".)
Second question-second part: Most likely; there are plenty of examples
of this everywhere; in fact, it has a literature of its own.
Third Statement: ABSOLUTELY NOT!!! I have written on this subject
extensively---including on this forum-----so, I do not think that I need to
repeat myself.
Fourth question: Very,very unlikely! (What you may have in mind
applies to Jews living in countries other than the Austro-Hungarian Empire).

Regards,

Peter A. Gergay
San Francisco,CA


Language and life in Kassa/Kosice #hungary

Rakoff125
 

--part1_95.92ff541.27fca550_boundary
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

My grandmother, Erna ASCHNER, was born in Kassa in 1895. She told me she=20
went to a secular gymnasium where the language was Hungarian. In 1907 she=20
brought over a few of her school books and they are in both Hungarian and=20
German. She said her very observant Grandparents hired a Yeshiva bucher to=20
teach the children Hebrew . At the time she was very Orthodox and went to=20
Shul daily....
She lived, at the time, in the Great Armory of the Austro-Hungarian Army,=20
where the Hussars were stationed, and described, colorfully, the imposing=20
figure the soldiers cut when they went out on maneuvers while she and her=20
cousins hid in the cornfields to watch them. =20
She and her cousins lived in the Armory because my great great Grandfather,=20
Simon GOLDMANN, ran the canteen there for the soldiers. My great great GM,=20
Lena Langer GOLDMANN used to do a lot of supervising the local peasants in=20
the kitchen. Grandma spoke of them routinely wearing their colorful native=20
costumes with many petticoats. Her GM would read Bible stories to the young=
=20
ones in the kitchen .=20
I do believe they spoke Yiddish as well because I remember my grandmother=20
refusing to in later years saying she didn't want to advertise that she was=
=20
Jewish in America; she also pulled back >from being observant. I think the=20
traumatic loss of her mother to cancer in 1932 followed by losing her close=20
cousins in the Holocaust, with whom she was raised and maintained contact=20
with, figured in this stance.

She described the countryside of Kassa as very beautiful; fields covered=20
with wild flowers. If you go to www.kosice.sk and follow links there are=20
many pictures of old Kassa under history, there is also an aerial view.=20
Between these pictures and those shared with me by Bobby Furst it is possibl=
e=20
to see what a truly beautifully city and countryside it is.

Anyone with any information or pictures of old Kassa please contact me as I=
=20
am keeping an album for my family. Thank you.
Linda Rakoff
Newton, MA
searching =A0ASCHNER-Assakurte, Katlo, Beuthen/Bytom, Danzig, Chorzow=20
[Konigshutte], Berko, Hradiste, Bratislava, Budapest ,Nyitra, Kosice,=A0=20
Spisska Nova Ves, Wien; BRETTSCHNEIDER, Galicia;=A0 BUCHWALD- Wien,Budapest,=
=20
Malacky GELBERG/LIPSHITZ-Galati; GOLDMAN(N),=A0 LANGER -Kosice, Spisska Nova=
=20
Ves,Bolyar; Miskolc, Presov; GORDON-Molatai, Vilna; LOW'Y-Hradiste, Spisska=20
Nova Ves; KOOPER,LISSAUER-Losonc, Miskolz;=A0 KOHN, STINGL: Wien, Bratislava=
=20
MELTZER, PERLBINDER, LADENHEIM-- Horodenka, Galicia; POLATSECK-Kosice;=A0=20
RAKOFF-Kelce,Russia=A0 RIESENBERG-=A0 Bolygen, Horodenka, Kasperowicz, Zales=
chicki


Re: Sombor, Yugoslavia #hungary

Janos Bogardi / Radix <janos@...>
 

Dear E. Randol Schoenberg and other listers,

Your current message to H-SIG says:

Can anyone give me the mailing address for the regional or historical
archives in Sombor, Yugoslavia?
Here are two pages that would help:
http://www.archives.org.yu/amreza.htm
This is a list of the archives in Yugoslavia, together with their regional competence and phone numbers.

http://www.vojvodina.com/kultura/html/archives.htm
This page contains the addresses of the archives in the Vojvodina (Vajdasag) part of Yugoslavia, including Sombor.

Hope this helps.

All the best,

Janos Bogardi / Radix.


Hungary SIG #Hungary Language and life in Kassa/Kosice #hungary

Rakoff125
 

--part1_95.92ff541.27fca550_boundary
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

My grandmother, Erna ASCHNER, was born in Kassa in 1895. She told me she=20
went to a secular gymnasium where the language was Hungarian. In 1907 she=20
brought over a few of her school books and they are in both Hungarian and=20
German. She said her very observant Grandparents hired a Yeshiva bucher to=20
teach the children Hebrew . At the time she was very Orthodox and went to=20
Shul daily....
She lived, at the time, in the Great Armory of the Austro-Hungarian Army,=20
where the Hussars were stationed, and described, colorfully, the imposing=20
figure the soldiers cut when they went out on maneuvers while she and her=20
cousins hid in the cornfields to watch them. =20
She and her cousins lived in the Armory because my great great Grandfather,=20
Simon GOLDMANN, ran the canteen there for the soldiers. My great great GM,=20
Lena Langer GOLDMANN used to do a lot of supervising the local peasants in=20
the kitchen. Grandma spoke of them routinely wearing their colorful native=20
costumes with many petticoats. Her GM would read Bible stories to the young=
=20
ones in the kitchen .=20
I do believe they spoke Yiddish as well because I remember my grandmother=20
refusing to in later years saying she didn't want to advertise that she was=
=20
Jewish in America; she also pulled back >from being observant. I think the=20
traumatic loss of her mother to cancer in 1932 followed by losing her close=20
cousins in the Holocaust, with whom she was raised and maintained contact=20
with, figured in this stance.

She described the countryside of Kassa as very beautiful; fields covered=20
with wild flowers. If you go to www.kosice.sk and follow links there are=20
many pictures of old Kassa under history, there is also an aerial view.=20
Between these pictures and those shared with me by Bobby Furst it is possibl=
e=20
to see what a truly beautifully city and countryside it is.

Anyone with any information or pictures of old Kassa please contact me as I=
=20
am keeping an album for my family. Thank you.
Linda Rakoff
Newton, MA
searching =A0ASCHNER-Assakurte, Katlo, Beuthen/Bytom, Danzig, Chorzow=20
[Konigshutte], Berko, Hradiste, Bratislava, Budapest ,Nyitra, Kosice,=A0=20
Spisska Nova Ves, Wien; BRETTSCHNEIDER, Galicia;=A0 BUCHWALD- Wien,Budapest,=
=20
Malacky GELBERG/LIPSHITZ-Galati; GOLDMAN(N),=A0 LANGER -Kosice, Spisska Nova=
=20
Ves,Bolyar; Miskolc, Presov; GORDON-Molatai, Vilna; LOW'Y-Hradiste, Spisska=20
Nova Ves; KOOPER,LISSAUER-Losonc, Miskolz;=A0 KOHN, STINGL: Wien, Bratislava=
=20
MELTZER, PERLBINDER, LADENHEIM-- Horodenka, Galicia; POLATSECK-Kosice;=A0=20
RAKOFF-Kelce,Russia=A0 RIESENBERG-=A0 Bolygen, Horodenka, Kasperowicz, Zales=
chicki


Hungary SIG #Hungary Re: Sombor, Yugoslavia #hungary

Janos Bogardi / Radix <janos@...>
 

Dear E. Randol Schoenberg and other listers,

Your current message to H-SIG says:

Can anyone give me the mailing address for the regional or historical
archives in Sombor, Yugoslavia?
Here are two pages that would help:
http://www.archives.org.yu/amreza.htm
This is a list of the archives in Yugoslavia, together with their regional competence and phone numbers.

http://www.vojvodina.com/kultura/html/archives.htm
This page contains the addresses of the archives in the Vojvodina (Vajdasag) part of Yugoslavia, including Sombor.

Hope this helps.

All the best,

Janos Bogardi / Radix.


JewishGen's French SIG now ready for subscribers! #galicia

Carol Skydell <cskydell@...>
 

JewishGen is very pleased to announce that we are now hosting a French SIG
whose prime objective will be to provide a forum for questions, discussion
and lots of information about doing Jewish genealogical research in France,
French colonies and French-speaking areas such as Belgium, Luxembourg and
Switzerland.

Thanks to the efforts of Pierre Hahn and Rosanne Leeson who will coordinate
the activities of the SIG and Carol Monahan who already has the web page
online at <http://www.jewishgen.org/french>

we are ready to accept subscribers to this new group.

There are two ways you can subscribe....online or through e-mail

If you plan to do it online, go to JewishGen's home page,
<http://www.jewishgen.org> and scroll down to the Discussion Category.
Click on Special Interest Groups and you'll be taken to the subscription
page, click on Subscribe and the webform will take you through the process.

If you decide to subscribe via e-mail just send a message addressed to:

listserve@lyris.jewishgen.org and say

subscribe frenchsig (type your first name) (type your last name)

JewishGen guidelines require that full names be registered along with
e-mail addresses.

***You must confirm your subscription***

Whether your subscribe via the WebForm online or via e-mail you will
receive a message asking that you confirm the request to subscribe. All
you need to do is hit the reply button and a properly addressed e-mail
should result. Send it back to the listserve robot and you'll know you've
done it all correctly if you get a Welcome message telling you all about
the group, how to manage your subscription and the address to use in order
to post messages.

If you need any help with the process, please write to
<support@jewishgen.org> and not to me.

We wish all 'genners very good fortune in researching in the French
speaking countries on which this SIG will focus.

Carol Skydell
JewishGen Vice President, Operations


Gesher Galicia SIG #Galicia JewishGen's French SIG now ready for subscribers! #galicia

Carol Skydell <cskydell@...>
 

JewishGen is very pleased to announce that we are now hosting a French SIG
whose prime objective will be to provide a forum for questions, discussion
and lots of information about doing Jewish genealogical research in France,
French colonies and French-speaking areas such as Belgium, Luxembourg and
Switzerland.

Thanks to the efforts of Pierre Hahn and Rosanne Leeson who will coordinate
the activities of the SIG and Carol Monahan who already has the web page
online at <http://www.jewishgen.org/french>

we are ready to accept subscribers to this new group.

There are two ways you can subscribe....online or through e-mail

If you plan to do it online, go to JewishGen's home page,
<http://www.jewishgen.org> and scroll down to the Discussion Category.
Click on Special Interest Groups and you'll be taken to the subscription
page, click on Subscribe and the webform will take you through the process.

If you decide to subscribe via e-mail just send a message addressed to:

listserve@lyris.jewishgen.org and say

subscribe frenchsig (type your first name) (type your last name)

JewishGen guidelines require that full names be registered along with
e-mail addresses.

***You must confirm your subscription***

Whether your subscribe via the WebForm online or via e-mail you will
receive a message asking that you confirm the request to subscribe. All
you need to do is hit the reply button and a properly addressed e-mail
should result. Send it back to the listserve robot and you'll know you've
done it all correctly if you get a Welcome message telling you all about
the group, how to manage your subscription and the address to use in order
to post messages.

If you need any help with the process, please write to
<support@jewishgen.org> and not to me.

We wish all 'genners very good fortune in researching in the French
speaking countries on which this SIG will focus.

Carol Skydell
JewishGen Vice President, Operations