Dans un courrier dat=E9 du 31.12.2000 07:13:37 Paris, Madrid,
jewishgen@lyris.jewishgen.org a =E9crit :

<< Subject: Siegel / Klimberg(er)
From: "Bob Siegel" <BobSiegel@charter.net>
Date: Sat, 30 Dec 2000 17:39:33 -0500

I've been researching my family for several months and am posting to see if
anyone is searching similar names.
Siegel: New York and Georgia, Joseph and Anna were
the original immigrants
Klimberg(er): New York and Ohio. Adolph and Catrina
were the immigrants for this side.

More information can be found at
http://www.familytreemaker.com/users/s/i/e/Bob-Siegel/index.html

Bob
BobSiegel@charter.net
>>

I am searching descendants 1) of Wolf Siegel
who married Janette Emsheimer
and was b Ilbesheim 28 may 1771
2) of Arnold Siegel who married Rose Levy
without more precisions

Happy New Year to all JewisgGenners
Henri-C. Mars, Issoire, France
hachem63@aol.com

In his 12-30-00 message Assaf Feig asked for information about the town
of Rachov in the Ukraine. ( In Poland, there is a Rachov near Lublin, so
I'm glad he specified that "his" Rachov was the Ukrainian one.)

In the Columbia-Lippincott Gazetteer the Ukrainian Rachov is spelled as
"Rakhov" (in Czech, "Rachov," in Hungarian, "Raho"). The town is located on
railroad line near the Tisla river, in the Trans-Carpathian oblast. Its
residents did papermilling and iron mining. There were mineral springs
nearby. In 1941 it had a population of 12,455. It belonged to
Austria-Hungary, until 1920 when it passed to Czechoslovakia. In 1938 it
was given to Hungary, and in 1945 passed on to the USSR.

Chester G. Cohen, in his ShtetlFinder Gazetteer, writes that this Rachov
is south of Lvov, in the province of Ruthenia, and north of Sighet, Romania.

There doesn't appear to be a yizkor book for the Ukrainian Rachov but
perhaps some description or mention can be found in yizkor book for another
town or the area in which Rachov is located. (See end of message!!)

And, no doubt, just to make matters complicated for a researcher like me
who goes by eye, spelling and linguistic instinct, rather than by hearing
and real knowledge, there are also two towns called "Rakov," one near Minsk
and the other near Krakow, the names of which are presumably pronounced
with a hard "k" rather than a gutteral "ch" or "kh"!

Note: Just before sending this message I ventured to do an internet
search for Mr. Feig's Rachov, and lo! I found its history and description
which were taken >from "Sefer Marmarash" at:

http://home.ici.net/~eganin/www/translations/rachov.html

The translation >from the Sefer Marmarash was made by E.M. Ganin.

So again, as I said in a recent message, it is very useful to search the
internet, as well as root about in Jewishgen's Discussion Group Archives!

Naomi Fatouros (nee FELDMAN)
Bloomington, Indiana
NFatouros@aol.com
Researching: BELKOWSKY, Odessa, Berdichev; FELDMAN, Pinsk; SHUTZ, SCHUTZ,
Shcherets; LEVY, Mulhouse;SAS, Podwolochisk; RAPOPORT, Tarnopol.

Dans un courrier dat=E9 du 31.12.2000 07:13:37 Paris, Madrid,
jewishgen@lyris.jewishgen.org a =E9crit :

<< Subject: Siegel / Klimberg(er)
From: "Bob Siegel" <BobSiegel@charter.net>
Date: Sat, 30 Dec 2000 17:39:33 -0500

I've been researching my family for several months and am posting to see if
anyone is searching similar names.
Siegel: New York and Georgia, Joseph and Anna were
the original immigrants
Klimberg(er): New York and Ohio. Adolph and Catrina
were the immigrants for this side.

More information can be found at
http://www.familytreemaker.com/users/s/i/e/Bob-Siegel/index.html

Bob
BobSiegel@charter.net
>>

I am searching descendants 1) of Wolf Siegel
who married Janette Emsheimer
and was b Ilbesheim 28 may 1771
2) of Arnold Siegel who married Rose Levy
without more precisions

Happy New Year to all JewisgGenners
Henri-C. Mars, Issoire, France
hachem63@aol.com

In his 12-30-00 message Assaf Feig asked for information about the town
of Rachov in the Ukraine. ( In Poland, there is a Rachov near Lublin, so
I'm glad he specified that "his" Rachov was the Ukrainian one.)

In the Columbia-Lippincott Gazetteer the Ukrainian Rachov is spelled as
"Rakhov" (in Czech, "Rachov," in Hungarian, "Raho"). The town is located on
railroad line near the Tisla river, in the Trans-Carpathian oblast. Its
residents did papermilling and iron mining. There were mineral springs
nearby. In 1941 it had a population of 12,455. It belonged to
Austria-Hungary, until 1920 when it passed to Czechoslovakia. In 1938 it
was given to Hungary, and in 1945 passed on to the USSR.

Chester G. Cohen, in his ShtetlFinder Gazetteer, writes that this Rachov
is south of Lvov, in the province of Ruthenia, and north of Sighet, Romania.

There doesn't appear to be a yizkor book for the Ukrainian Rachov but
perhaps some description or mention can be found in yizkor book for another
town or the area in which Rachov is located. (See end of message!!)

And, no doubt, just to make matters complicated for a researcher like me
who goes by eye, spelling and linguistic instinct, rather than by hearing
and real knowledge, there are also two towns called "Rakov," one near Minsk
and the other near Krakow, the names of which are presumably pronounced
with a hard "k" rather than a gutteral "ch" or "kh"!

Note: Just before sending this message I ventured to do an internet
search for Mr. Feig's Rachov, and lo! I found its history and description
which were taken >from "Sefer Marmarash" at:

http://home.ici.net/~eganin/www/translations/rachov.html

The translation >from the Sefer Marmarash was made by E.M. Ganin.

So again, as I said in a recent message, it is very useful to search the
internet, as well as root about in Jewishgen's Discussion Group Archives!

Naomi Fatouros (nee FELDMAN)
Bloomington, Indiana
NFatouros@aol.com
Researching: BELKOWSKY, Odessa, Berdichev; FELDMAN, Pinsk; SHUTZ, SCHUTZ,
Shcherets; LEVY, Mulhouse;SAS, Podwolochisk; RAPOPORT, Tarnopol.

I thought the purpose of our genealogical researches is to discover what
evidence is out there about the families we are researching, not to decide
what the truth is and correct monuments and documents that we thing may be
wrong. I believe it is important for us to work with open minds and
recognize we may never know everything with certainty. That's why
professional genealogists look for multiple documentary sources for their
dates and other information and keep scrupulous records of their sources.
This is a good model for all of us to aspire to.

With only 2 pieces of conflicting information, how can one be certain which
date is correct, rather than surmising. I have a great grandmother whose
age at the 1920 census is at variance with the date on her tombstone. The
1920 census information actually makes more sense in view of the age of her
first child (if that information is correct). But how can I presume
without other evidence that one date is right and the other is wrong.
Clearly this information is not sufficiently definitive to go about
changing the date on the tombstone, though I have no problem with sharing
this new piece of evidence with other family members. In another case, the
date on a favorite aunt's monument is definitely wrong. Everyone in the
family knew that she had lied to her second husband about her age and had
swore her siblings to maintain the fiction. As she died before her
husband, honoring her wishes, my mother who erected the tombstone,
maintained the fiction. This discrepancy was an integral part of her life,
and I believe it fitting that it be part of her death. I choose to think
of it as something more fundamental about her than a proper date on the
stone would and is a poignant clue to her inner life.

As you continue collecting documents, death certificate, marriage
certificate, passenger lists, etc., you may wind up with 3, 4, 5 or more
dates. Sometimes people didn't know exactly how old they were. There are
instances when people lied for what they considered good and prudent
reasons. Other cases may be clerical errors, etc. I believe the best
course is to record in our genealogies all the dates with all the sources
and leave the monuments alone.

Happy new year to everyone.

Barbara Harris

"Deborah L. Sterling" wrote:

While checking the information on a Declaration of Intention and then
looking at a photo I took myself of an ancestor's headstone,I've made the
deduction that the headstone is in error. (off by 3 years for year of
birth). Since the declaration is much earlier in time,
was filled out in front of the live relative,vs the headstone,and the age
adds up correctlyon the petition,I am fairly certain of this discrepancy.

Now, the question, do I tell the son and daughter of the deceased? They
are both elderly and I don't like upsetting them, but should they know
about this?
anyone else run into this situation??

Deborah

maybug@earthlink.net

The message below which I sent earlier today was vaguely
written. Unfortunately, names of people are not listed in what I called
a "directory." This little book provides the locations of many public
buildings, theaters, houses of worship, etc. So, I may be able to help
with an address... but not people and their homes. I apologize for the
confusion.

Steve Axelrath

I have a pocket sized 1927 Brooklyn directory which, among others,
provides locations for synagogues, fire houses, police stations,
theaters (including "moving picture theaters"), and schools.
If anyone would like me to look something up, I'd be glad to help.

Steve Axelrath
Littleton, Colorado

I am trying to locate any surviving members of my fathers family. He
is a holocaust survivor born in Cracow April 19 1923. Only he and an
uncle Tobias Steinlauf (his mothers brother) survived the war. He
married my mother Hinda Gawenda late in 1948 and in 1949 they emigrated
to Australia where I was born. He knows of no surviving members of his
family. his father was Eliasz Preiss. I am named Allan after my
grandafther. Any information will be great. Thank you.

On Sat, 30 Dec 2000 23:10:22, dls18@earthlink.net (Deborah L.
Sterling) opined:

While checking the information on a Declaration of Intention and then
looking at a photo I took myself of an ancestor's headstone,I've made the
deduction that the headstone is in error. (off by 3 years for year of
birth). Since the declaration is much earlier in time,
was filled out in front of the live relative,vs the headstone,and the age
adds up correctly on the petition,I amfairly certain of this discrepancy.

Now, the question, do I tell the son and daughter of the deceased? They
are both elderly and I don't like upsetting them, but should they know
about this?
anyone else run into this situation??

Especially if they are elderly, they are likely to understand that
birthdays and years of birth were often ignored and/or falsified for
one reason or another. We must not project current attitudes about
these things onto people in other places and times.

I am aware of several similar cases, and know for a fact that the dates on
the stones were falsified in order to correspond with dates on the
life-insurance policies of the deceased.

On Sun, 31 Dec 2000 01:50:16, hellfire@mindspring.com (Hellfire) opined:

Dear Deborah,

This one really threw me too. I can see why it's so difficult to decide.

I asked my husband and my sons 8 and 10 (sometimes kids do know more than
we do:)) We discussed it for about 15 minutes at dinner and came to this
conclusion. If the stone can be fixed, for minimal cost, tell them, and
then tell them that you will take care of it. Otherwise let it be, while
they are living, and then change it,if you can afford to do so. In either
case, make sure the management of the cemetery knows that the discrepancy
exists so that they,at least, will give the correct information. Publish
the true dates for future generations.

On the contrary, altering the stone either before or after the death of the
children would be arrogance, and wouild serve no good purpose; leave them
alone. You can keep accurate data in your database, because it is yours.
The stones are not.

The cemetery staff is authorized to give out, if anything, what is written
on the stones. They are not an authority on what actually happened many
years before, or what was in the minds of the deceased or their survivors.

Stan Goodman, Qiryat Tiv'on, Israel

Searching:
NEACHOWICZ/NOACHOWICZ, NEJMAN/NAJMAN, ROKITA: >from Lomza Gubernia
ISMACH: >from Lomza Gubernia, Galicia, and Ukraina
HERTANU, ABRAMOVICI, LAUER: >from Dorohoi District, Romania
GRISARU, VATARU: >from Iasi, Romania

See my interactive family tree (requires Java 1.1.6 or better):
http://www.hashkedim.com

PLEASE NOTE: Messages to the "From:" or "Reply to:" address of this
posting will NOT reach me, but will be deleted automatically unread.
Replace "sheol" with "stan". Please send plain text only.

Any jewish Malena families in cyberspace ?

I thought the purpose of our genealogical researches is to discover what
evidence is out there about the families we are researching, not to decide
what the truth is and correct monuments and documents that we thing may be
wrong. I believe it is important for us to work with open minds and
recognize we may never know everything with certainty. That's why
professional genealogists look for multiple documentary sources for their
dates and other information and keep scrupulous records of their sources.
This is a good model for all of us to aspire to.

With only 2 pieces of conflicting information, how can one be certain which
date is correct, rather than surmising. I have a great grandmother whose
age at the 1920 census is at variance with the date on her tombstone. The
1920 census information actually makes more sense in view of the age of her
first child (if that information is correct). But how can I presume
without other evidence that one date is right and the other is wrong.
Clearly this information is not sufficiently definitive to go about
changing the date on the tombstone, though I have no problem with sharing
this new piece of evidence with other family members. In another case, the
date on a favorite aunt's monument is definitely wrong. Everyone in the
family knew that she had lied to her second husband about her age and had
swore her siblings to maintain the fiction. As she died before her
husband, honoring her wishes, my mother who erected the tombstone,
maintained the fiction. This discrepancy was an integral part of her life,
and I believe it fitting that it be part of her death. I choose to think
of it as something more fundamental about her than a proper date on the
stone would and is a poignant clue to her inner life.

As you continue collecting documents, death certificate, marriage
certificate, passenger lists, etc., you may wind up with 3, 4, 5 or more
dates. Sometimes people didn't know exactly how old they were. There are
instances when people lied for what they considered good and prudent
reasons. Other cases may be clerical errors, etc. I believe the best
course is to record in our genealogies all the dates with all the sources
and leave the monuments alone.

Happy new year to everyone.

Barbara Harris

"Deborah L. Sterling" wrote:

While checking the information on a Declaration of Intention and then
looking at a photo I took myself of an ancestor's headstone,I've made the
deduction that the headstone is in error. (off by 3 years for year of
birth). Since the declaration is much earlier in time,
was filled out in front of the live relative,vs the headstone,and the age
adds up correctlyon the petition,I am fairly certain of this discrepancy.

Now, the question, do I tell the son and daughter of the deceased? They
are both elderly and I don't like upsetting them, but should they know
about this?
anyone else run into this situation??

Deborah

maybug@earthlink.net

The message below which I sent earlier today was vaguely
written. Unfortunately, names of people are not listed in what I called
a "directory." This little book provides the locations of many public
buildings, theaters, houses of worship, etc. So, I may be able to help
with an address... but not people and their homes. I apologize for the
confusion.

Steve Axelrath

I have a pocket sized 1927 Brooklyn directory which, among others,
provides locations for synagogues, fire houses, police stations,
theaters (including "moving picture theaters"), and schools.
If anyone would like me to look something up, I'd be glad to help.

Steve Axelrath
Littleton, Colorado

I am trying to locate any surviving members of my fathers family. He
is a holocaust survivor born in Cracow April 19 1923. Only he and an
uncle Tobias Steinlauf (his mothers brother) survived the war. He
married my mother Hinda Gawenda late in 1948 and in 1949 they emigrated
to Australia where I was born. He knows of no surviving members of his
family. his father was Eliasz Preiss. I am named Allan after my
grandafther. Any information will be great. Thank you.

On Sat, 30 Dec 2000 23:10:22, dls18@earthlink.net (Deborah L.
Sterling) opined:

While checking the information on a Declaration of Intention and then
looking at a photo I took myself of an ancestor's headstone,I've made the
deduction that the headstone is in error. (off by 3 years for year of
birth). Since the declaration is much earlier in time,
was filled out in front of the live relative,vs the headstone,and the age
adds up correctly on the petition,I amfairly certain of this discrepancy.

Now, the question, do I tell the son and daughter of the deceased? They
are both elderly and I don't like upsetting them, but should they know
about this?
anyone else run into this situation??

Especially if they are elderly, they are likely to understand that
birthdays and years of birth were often ignored and/or falsified for
one reason or another. We must not project current attitudes about
these things onto people in other places and times.

I am aware of several similar cases, and know for a fact that the dates on
the stones were falsified in order to correspond with dates on the
life-insurance policies of the deceased.

On Sun, 31 Dec 2000 01:50:16, hellfire@mindspring.com (Hellfire) opined:

Dear Deborah,

This one really threw me too. I can see why it's so difficult to decide.

I asked my husband and my sons 8 and 10 (sometimes kids do know more than
we do:)) We discussed it for about 15 minutes at dinner and came to this
conclusion. If the stone can be fixed, for minimal cost, tell them, and
then tell them that you will take care of it. Otherwise let it be, while
they are living, and then change it,if you can afford to do so. In either
case, make sure the management of the cemetery knows that the discrepancy
exists so that they,at least, will give the correct information. Publish
the true dates for future generations.

On the contrary, altering the stone either before or after the death of the
children would be arrogance, and wouild serve no good purpose; leave them
alone. You can keep accurate data in your database, because it is yours.
The stones are not.

The cemetery staff is authorized to give out, if anything, what is written
on the stones. They are not an authority on what actually happened many
years before, or what was in the minds of the deceased or their survivors.

Stan Goodman, Qiryat Tiv'on, Israel

Searching:
NEACHOWICZ/NOACHOWICZ, NEJMAN/NAJMAN, ROKITA: >from Lomza Gubernia
ISMACH: >from Lomza Gubernia, Galicia, and Ukraina
HERTANU, ABRAMOVICI, LAUER: >from Dorohoi District, Romania
GRISARU, VATARU: >from Iasi, Romania

See my interactive family tree (requires Java 1.1.6 or better):
http://www.hashkedim.com

PLEASE NOTE: Messages to the "From:" or "Reply to:" address of this
posting will NOT reach me, but will be deleted automatically unread.
Replace "sheol" with "stan". Please send plain text only.

Any jewish Malena families in cyberspace ?

The Jewish Genealogical Society of Bergen County will be having its next
meeting on Sunday, January 14, 2001. Miriam Weiner, noted author and
genealogist, will be speaking on "Navigating the Revolving Doors of the
Former Soviet Union - an update on archive access - newly discovered
documents in the archives - tips on preparing for on-site research".
Ms. Weiner will have copies of her books, "Jewish Roots in Poland" and
"Jewish Roots in Ukraine and Moldova" for sale and for signing. Also,
after her lecture, Ms. Weiner will be available to answer your
individual questions.

The meeting starts at 2PM and is held at the JCC on the Palisades in
Tenafly. The JCC of the Palisades as located at 401 East Clinton Avenue
in Tenafly. Their phone number is 201-569-7900.

If you need directions, go to our homepage at
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erosenbaum/jgsbc/

Sincerely,
Edward L. Rosenbaum
President
JGS of Bergen County, NJ

About the JGS of Bergen county

We are an organization of Jewish genealogists who are enjoying the
growing pastime of tracing our families' roots back to the Old Country
and collecting records of our family, some of them hundreds of years
old. The Jewish Genealogical Society of Bergen County is one of over 70
member organizations of the International Association of Jewish
Genealogical Societies.

There's a Soundex calculator on the website -
http://www.jewishgen.org/jos/jossound.htm .

Ernie Fine
Vienna, VA

ESTRY = 043900

An easy way to find a D-M code is to to a search on any of the
Jewishgen databases at
http://www.jewishgen.org

If you specify the "type of search" as "Surname -
Daitch-Mokotoff Soundex" (the default),
the results page will show the actual soundex code used.

Herb Van Brink
Los Angeles
hvb at e c h o dot c o m

GERRICA@aol.com wrote:

The Jewish Genealogical Society of Bergen County will be having its next
meeting on Sunday, January 14, 2001. Miriam Weiner, noted author and
genealogist, will be speaking on "Navigating the Revolving Doors of the
Former Soviet Union - an update on archive access - newly discovered
documents in the archives - tips on preparing for on-site research".
Ms. Weiner will have copies of her books, "Jewish Roots in Poland" and
"Jewish Roots in Ukraine and Moldova" for sale and for signing. Also,
after her lecture, Ms. Weiner will be available to answer your
individual questions.

The meeting starts at 2PM and is held at the JCC on the Palisades in
Tenafly. The JCC of the Palisades as located at 401 East Clinton Avenue
in Tenafly. Their phone number is 201-569-7900.

If you need directions, go to our homepage at
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erosenbaum/jgsbc/

Sincerely,
Edward L. Rosenbaum
President
JGS of Bergen County, NJ

About the JGS of Bergen county

We are an organization of Jewish genealogists who are enjoying the
growing pastime of tracing our families' roots back to the Old Country
and collecting records of our family, some of them hundreds of years
old. The Jewish Genealogical Society of Bergen County is one of over 70
member organizations of the International Association of Jewish
Genealogical Societies.

There's a Soundex calculator on the website -
http://www.jewishgen.org/jos/jossound.htm .

Ernie Fine
Vienna, VA

ESTRY = 043900

An easy way to find a D-M code is to to a search on any of the
Jewishgen databases at
http://www.jewishgen.org

If you specify the "type of search" as "Surname -
Daitch-Mokotoff Soundex" (the default),
the results page will show the actual soundex code used.

Herb Van Brink
Los Angeles
hvb at e c h o dot c o m

GERRICA@aol.com wrote: