Date   

Grimsby? & a MELAMED from Smiltene #latvia

SVass@...
 

I found an entry for a Judel Melamed, age 20 >from Smilten Russlands,
emigrating through Hamburg in 1890, enroute to Chicago. The ship destination
is given as Grimsby (Nordamerika via Liverpool). Does anyone know where
Grimsby was? Was Judel a male or a female name?
sam vass
Kent, Washington, USA

Moderator Note: Grimsby is a port in the UK.
It was one of the major ports of entry for our families
whether en route to England or travelling on to America.
>from Grimsby they went by train to Liverpool
to board ship to America.


Latvia SIG #Latvia Grimsby? & a MELAMED from Smiltene #latvia

SVass@...
 

I found an entry for a Judel Melamed, age 20 >from Smilten Russlands,
emigrating through Hamburg in 1890, enroute to Chicago. The ship destination
is given as Grimsby (Nordamerika via Liverpool). Does anyone know where
Grimsby was? Was Judel a male or a female name?
sam vass
Kent, Washington, USA

Moderator Note: Grimsby is a port in the UK.
It was one of the major ports of entry for our families
whether en route to England or travelling on to America.
>from Grimsby they went by train to Liverpool
to board ship to America.


Donations and Volunteers #latvia

Arlene Beare <arl@...>
 

Latvia SIG and Courland Research Group message

I thank all of you who have come forward to volunteer help with the
processing of information for the All Latvia Database.
I would like to point out that the database is the All Latvia Database and
Constance Whippman is the database Coordinator. This means that information
that the Latvia SIG acquires is passed on to Constance and her team of
volunteers who help with getting it into the database.
The database is not only for Courland material as you all know.
We are just about to put up a wonderful database of names for
Daugavpils(Dvinsk) which has been donated by Latvia SIG. We also have a lot
of wonderful Directories and other material that needs to be processed.
The cost of acquiring the data is high and we in the Latvia SIG need
donations just as badly as does the Courland area Research Group.

I am therefore asking that you send any donations that you can give to our
Treasurer
Mike Getz 5450 Whitley Park Ter. apt 901Bethesda MD 20818-2067

The members of the Courland Group will know that data >from Livland and
Latgale has relevance for Courland researchers just as the Courland data
has relevance for the rest of Latvia.

We are all Latvians working together to acquire and publish data for the
benefit of all. If you have a strong desire that your financial
contribution should be for the Courland Group as against the Latvia SIG
then of course you will send it to the treasurer of that Group but I would
like to stress that Latvia SIG needs funds and thank you in advance for any
contribution.

Arlene Beare
Presedent Latvia SIG


Latvia SIG #Latvia Donations and Volunteers #latvia

Arlene Beare <arl@...>
 

Latvia SIG and Courland Research Group message

I thank all of you who have come forward to volunteer help with the
processing of information for the All Latvia Database.
I would like to point out that the database is the All Latvia Database and
Constance Whippman is the database Coordinator. This means that information
that the Latvia SIG acquires is passed on to Constance and her team of
volunteers who help with getting it into the database.
The database is not only for Courland material as you all know.
We are just about to put up a wonderful database of names for
Daugavpils(Dvinsk) which has been donated by Latvia SIG. We also have a lot
of wonderful Directories and other material that needs to be processed.
The cost of acquiring the data is high and we in the Latvia SIG need
donations just as badly as does the Courland area Research Group.

I am therefore asking that you send any donations that you can give to our
Treasurer
Mike Getz 5450 Whitley Park Ter. apt 901Bethesda MD 20818-2067

The members of the Courland Group will know that data >from Livland and
Latgale has relevance for Courland researchers just as the Courland data
has relevance for the rest of Latvia.

We are all Latvians working together to acquire and publish data for the
benefit of all. If you have a strong desire that your financial
contribution should be for the Courland Group as against the Latvia SIG
then of course you will send it to the treasurer of that Group but I would
like to stress that Latvia SIG needs funds and thank you in advance for any
contribution.

Arlene Beare
Presedent Latvia SIG


Re: Weisbach #galicia

Carol Cohen <cgandhc@...>
 

Dear Carol, My great grandfather on my mothers side was Hertz/Chaim
Weisbach. He died in about 1935 as an old man & so I guess he was born
in about 1860-80. He was the shamas - synagogue official - in the town
of Rava Ruska which is now Rava Russkaya near the river Bug which is in
the 42 nd administrative district of Gallicia , & is on the border
between Poland & Ukraine. At the time he was alive this was part of the
Austro Hungarian Empire for many years & so many people had Austrian
citizen ship. I have been looking for Weisbachs for about a year
without any success - it had seemed to be a common German but not Jewish
name. You are my first connection. My Ggf married Marjem Kindler & for
whatever the reasoning of the times the children of that marriage took
their mothers name as Weisbach - Kindler, as their grandmother had
before them - it seems to have been a custom- maybe that it why you have
Sara PERMUTTER rather than Weisbach - maybe she was known as Permutter
Weisbach or Weisbach Permutter & used whichever part was convenient. I am
confident that there is a relationship here because of the scarcity of
Weisbachs in Gallicia, I would be so very grateful if you could give
me any more info you have. With kind regards, Judy Davies, London
, England

OUR G-GRANDMOTHER SARA'S CHILDREN WERE BORN IN WIKTOROVKA IN THE DISTRICT
OF TARNOPOL NEAR KOSOVA. I WILL TRY TO FIND OUT HOW CLOSE Rava Russkaya
IS TO WIKTOROVKA. ACCORDING TO MY INFO. SARAH PERMUTTER - WEISBACH??'S
PARENTS WERE MORRIS & YETTA PERLMUTTER. I CAN'T SEE HOW MY GRANDMOTHER
MADE THIS ERROR, BECAUSE SHE GAVE THIS INFO. TO MY MOTHER IN 1942 WHEN I
WAS BORN, AND IT WAS WRITTEN IN MY BABY BOOK!! AT THAT TIME SHE WAS 62,
AND HAD ALL OF HER FACULTIES! HOWEVER, THE SASS'S >from MY GRANDMOTHER'S
BROTHER DAVID MEYER SASS SAY THAT HER LAST NAME WAS WEISBACH. SO WHO
KNOWS. BESIDES MY FATHER, ONLY ONE OTHER FIRST COUSIN IS LIVING, AND I
WILL TRY TO FIND OUT IF SHE KNOWS HER GRANDMOTHER'S NAME. BY ANY CHANCE
TO YOU HAVE MORRIS & SARA IN YOUR FAMILY TREE? THANKS, CAROL COHEN
Carol Cohen
cococo@ont.com
Dallas, TX USA


Gesher Galicia SIG #Galicia Re: Weisbach #galicia

Carol Cohen <cgandhc@...>
 

Dear Carol, My great grandfather on my mothers side was Hertz/Chaim
Weisbach. He died in about 1935 as an old man & so I guess he was born
in about 1860-80. He was the shamas - synagogue official - in the town
of Rava Ruska which is now Rava Russkaya near the river Bug which is in
the 42 nd administrative district of Gallicia , & is on the border
between Poland & Ukraine. At the time he was alive this was part of the
Austro Hungarian Empire for many years & so many people had Austrian
citizen ship. I have been looking for Weisbachs for about a year
without any success - it had seemed to be a common German but not Jewish
name. You are my first connection. My Ggf married Marjem Kindler & for
whatever the reasoning of the times the children of that marriage took
their mothers name as Weisbach - Kindler, as their grandmother had
before them - it seems to have been a custom- maybe that it why you have
Sara PERMUTTER rather than Weisbach - maybe she was known as Permutter
Weisbach or Weisbach Permutter & used whichever part was convenient. I am
confident that there is a relationship here because of the scarcity of
Weisbachs in Gallicia, I would be so very grateful if you could give
me any more info you have. With kind regards, Judy Davies, London
, England

OUR G-GRANDMOTHER SARA'S CHILDREN WERE BORN IN WIKTOROVKA IN THE DISTRICT
OF TARNOPOL NEAR KOSOVA. I WILL TRY TO FIND OUT HOW CLOSE Rava Russkaya
IS TO WIKTOROVKA. ACCORDING TO MY INFO. SARAH PERMUTTER - WEISBACH??'S
PARENTS WERE MORRIS & YETTA PERLMUTTER. I CAN'T SEE HOW MY GRANDMOTHER
MADE THIS ERROR, BECAUSE SHE GAVE THIS INFO. TO MY MOTHER IN 1942 WHEN I
WAS BORN, AND IT WAS WRITTEN IN MY BABY BOOK!! AT THAT TIME SHE WAS 62,
AND HAD ALL OF HER FACULTIES! HOWEVER, THE SASS'S >from MY GRANDMOTHER'S
BROTHER DAVID MEYER SASS SAY THAT HER LAST NAME WAS WEISBACH. SO WHO
KNOWS. BESIDES MY FATHER, ONLY ONE OTHER FIRST COUSIN IS LIVING, AND I
WILL TRY TO FIND OUT IF SHE KNOWS HER GRANDMOTHER'S NAME. BY ANY CHANCE
TO YOU HAVE MORRIS & SARA IN YOUR FAMILY TREE? THANKS, CAROL COHEN
Carol Cohen
cococo@ont.com
Dallas, TX USA


Missing NYC marriage certificate #galicia

Eve Greenfield <eve_rachel@...>
 

Dear Jewishgenners,

I recently received a copy of my grandmother's birth
certificate >from Winnipeg, Canada, and much to my
surprise (and delight), it listed both of her parents'
birthplaces. (She was born in 1914; in general with
Canadian birth certificates, the older ones list much
more information about the parents, since it's no
longer politically correct to have people list things
like racial origin on official documents). Her father,
David MONDSHEIN, lists his place of birth as Husiatyn,
Poland (now Gusyatin, Ukraine), and her mother, Jennie
TARNAKOW, has Minsk, Belarus listed as place of birth.

Here's the mysterious part: there is an addendum
attached to the birth certificate, signed by David,
basically stating that he was present at the time of
the birth (the birth wasn't registered until 1930,
more than 15 years later, which is pretty unusual for
Canada, as far as I know!) and has personal knowledge
of all the facts declared on the birth certificate.
One of the facts listed is the date and place of the
parents' marriage, which is New York, Sept. 26, 1911.
I requested a search for all five boroughs for the
year 1911, and got a certificate of no record, along
with a microfilm print of a marriage certificate for
some guy named Aloys Monschein >from Hungary who was
married by a Catholic priest in July 1911, so no
relation.
Any ideas how there could be no record of the
marriage? Maybe it wasn't registered with the civil
authorities, in which case how could I find a record
of it? (The fact that they waited more than 15 years
to register my grandmother's birth lends credence to
this idea.) Maybe they got married elsewhere in New
York State, in which case where could I begin to look
for the record? The date listed is pretty specific,
so is there any point in requesting a search for the
surrounding years? Maybe there is a secondary record
of the marriage somewhere, and if so, where might it
be? In Canadian immigration records?
If it's any help, my grandmother says that her mother,
then already a widow in her early 30's, was living in
New York, when David (who was living in Canada) came
to visit some relatives, met her, swept her off her
feet, married her, and took her back to Winnipeg with
him, where my grandmother was born. Any inspirations
on where to dig further are very welcome.
Eve Greenfield, Chicago, Illinois

=====

[phone numbers removed for privacy]


Gesher Galicia SIG #Galicia Missing NYC marriage certificate #galicia

Eve Greenfield <eve_rachel@...>
 

Dear Jewishgenners,

I recently received a copy of my grandmother's birth
certificate >from Winnipeg, Canada, and much to my
surprise (and delight), it listed both of her parents'
birthplaces. (She was born in 1914; in general with
Canadian birth certificates, the older ones list much
more information about the parents, since it's no
longer politically correct to have people list things
like racial origin on official documents). Her father,
David MONDSHEIN, lists his place of birth as Husiatyn,
Poland (now Gusyatin, Ukraine), and her mother, Jennie
TARNAKOW, has Minsk, Belarus listed as place of birth.

Here's the mysterious part: there is an addendum
attached to the birth certificate, signed by David,
basically stating that he was present at the time of
the birth (the birth wasn't registered until 1930,
more than 15 years later, which is pretty unusual for
Canada, as far as I know!) and has personal knowledge
of all the facts declared on the birth certificate.
One of the facts listed is the date and place of the
parents' marriage, which is New York, Sept. 26, 1911.
I requested a search for all five boroughs for the
year 1911, and got a certificate of no record, along
with a microfilm print of a marriage certificate for
some guy named Aloys Monschein >from Hungary who was
married by a Catholic priest in July 1911, so no
relation.
Any ideas how there could be no record of the
marriage? Maybe it wasn't registered with the civil
authorities, in which case how could I find a record
of it? (The fact that they waited more than 15 years
to register my grandmother's birth lends credence to
this idea.) Maybe they got married elsewhere in New
York State, in which case where could I begin to look
for the record? The date listed is pretty specific,
so is there any point in requesting a search for the
surrounding years? Maybe there is a secondary record
of the marriage somewhere, and if so, where might it
be? In Canadian immigration records?
If it's any help, my grandmother says that her mother,
then already a widow in her early 30's, was living in
New York, when David (who was living in Canada) came
to visit some relatives, met her, swept her off her
feet, married her, and took her back to Winnipeg with
him, where my grandmother was born. Any inspirations
on where to dig further are very welcome.
Eve Greenfield, Chicago, Illinois

=====

[phone numbers removed for privacy]


Chaskel HOLLANDER - Viewmate #galicia

Beverly <bev7@...>
 

Dear Genners,

I have a beautiful sepia photograph of one Chaskel HOLLANDER, a friend of my
father's family (SCHULSTER). It was taken in the Hague probably after 1920.
Since the inscription on the back is in German, I can probably assume that
Chaskel was either >from the same Shtetl -- Bobrka, Galicia, -- or that he
met the family in Vienna during WWI. The inscription is to the whole
family, and I assume he was a friend of one of the children, born betwen
1894 and 1908, putting him in that age range.

http://www.jewishgen.org/viewmate/toview99.html#vm310

Thanks for any help. This photo is looking for a home.

Beverly Shulster
Yehud, Israel
Searching:
SCHULSTER, DONNER, KRIEG; Bobrka, Ukraine
SCHULSTER, WEINTRAUB; Bukaczowce, Ukraine
VAN GELDER, DE HAAFF, SPETTER, KATAN; Rotterdam


SPAM to our members #galicia

Beverly <bev7@...>
 

Date: Wed, 17 Jan 2001 11:21:12 -0800
From: Carol Skydell <cskydell@jewishgen.org>
Folks,

JewishGen is receiving an increasing number of complaints regarding
unsolicited mail >from a variety of organizations of potential Jewish
interest, as well as plain vanilla SPAM >from all kinds of businesses.

To help you all better understand the situation here are some pointers.

JewishGen does not ever sell or lend to any organization the e-mail
addresses or names of the subscribers to any of our lists.

The JewishGen Discussion Group is mirrored to the Usenet newsgroup
soc.genealogy.jewish and is therefore a public list. Not only are our
archives searchable by anyone with an interest, messages can be retrieved
from soc.genealogy.jewish and archived in programs such as Dejanews
<www.deja.com>

If you are subscribed to one of the SIG or Research Group mailing lists
hosted by JewishGen, be assured that these are not public but private
lists. These messages are not mirrored to anything, only subscribers to
the list may post or receive the messages. While it is true that
'outsiders' could search the SIG or Research Group archived messages, they
would have to know how to find them. Not an impossible task, if you know
where to look.
The only other way we have of protecting these lists and the e-mail
addresses of the subscribers if by relying on the integrity of the
subscribers. While some of you may believe that you are helping people by
providing their names to other lists, this is a violation of the way
JewishGen operates the private list. Please, under no circumstances
provide information >from a private list to anyone.

The most secure way of protecting lists is through passworded access,
however programs of that nature would cost us $50,000 if not more.
We do not have that kind of financial strength, nor do we have the
'volunteerpower' to set up a help desk where people can report abuse. A
good bit of this you can do on your own when you receive unsolicited mail.

First address the abuse division of the ISP >from whence the message came.
For example if it came >from XYZ.com you'd address abuse@XYZ.com,
include a copy of the unsolicited mail as well as the full header and
advise abuse@XYZ.com that you have received unwanted mail >from one of
their users and since this is a violation of any user agreement you would
appreciate if they would take the appropriate steps in cancelling the
account.

Second when you get SPAM messages, check to see if you have ever posted a
message to any usenet newsgroup. If you can verify that you have not and
think the message may have originated because of your address being in a
SIG or Research Group mailing list, please notify support@jewishgen.org
giving all the particulars.

We hope this helps you to better understand the situation on all levels.
JewishGen is concerned, but as you can see there is little we can do to
prevent your addresses >from being captured by SPAMMERS.

Carol

Carol W. Skydell, Vice President
JewishGen Operations
cskydell@jewishgen.org


Gesher Galicia SIG #Galicia Chaskel HOLLANDER - Viewmate #galicia

Beverly <bev7@...>
 

Dear Genners,

I have a beautiful sepia photograph of one Chaskel HOLLANDER, a friend of my
father's family (SCHULSTER). It was taken in the Hague probably after 1920.
Since the inscription on the back is in German, I can probably assume that
Chaskel was either >from the same Shtetl -- Bobrka, Galicia, -- or that he
met the family in Vienna during WWI. The inscription is to the whole
family, and I assume he was a friend of one of the children, born betwen
1894 and 1908, putting him in that age range.

http://www.jewishgen.org/viewmate/toview99.html#vm310

Thanks for any help. This photo is looking for a home.

Beverly Shulster
Yehud, Israel
Searching:
SCHULSTER, DONNER, KRIEG; Bobrka, Ukraine
SCHULSTER, WEINTRAUB; Bukaczowce, Ukraine
VAN GELDER, DE HAAFF, SPETTER, KATAN; Rotterdam


Gesher Galicia SIG #Galicia SPAM to our members #galicia

Beverly <bev7@...>
 

Date: Wed, 17 Jan 2001 11:21:12 -0800
From: Carol Skydell <cskydell@jewishgen.org>
Folks,

JewishGen is receiving an increasing number of complaints regarding
unsolicited mail >from a variety of organizations of potential Jewish
interest, as well as plain vanilla SPAM >from all kinds of businesses.

To help you all better understand the situation here are some pointers.

JewishGen does not ever sell or lend to any organization the e-mail
addresses or names of the subscribers to any of our lists.

The JewishGen Discussion Group is mirrored to the Usenet newsgroup
soc.genealogy.jewish and is therefore a public list. Not only are our
archives searchable by anyone with an interest, messages can be retrieved
from soc.genealogy.jewish and archived in programs such as Dejanews
<www.deja.com>

If you are subscribed to one of the SIG or Research Group mailing lists
hosted by JewishGen, be assured that these are not public but private
lists. These messages are not mirrored to anything, only subscribers to
the list may post or receive the messages. While it is true that
'outsiders' could search the SIG or Research Group archived messages, they
would have to know how to find them. Not an impossible task, if you know
where to look.
The only other way we have of protecting these lists and the e-mail
addresses of the subscribers if by relying on the integrity of the
subscribers. While some of you may believe that you are helping people by
providing their names to other lists, this is a violation of the way
JewishGen operates the private list. Please, under no circumstances
provide information >from a private list to anyone.

The most secure way of protecting lists is through passworded access,
however programs of that nature would cost us $50,000 if not more.
We do not have that kind of financial strength, nor do we have the
'volunteerpower' to set up a help desk where people can report abuse. A
good bit of this you can do on your own when you receive unsolicited mail.

First address the abuse division of the ISP >from whence the message came.
For example if it came >from XYZ.com you'd address abuse@XYZ.com,
include a copy of the unsolicited mail as well as the full header and
advise abuse@XYZ.com that you have received unwanted mail >from one of
their users and since this is a violation of any user agreement you would
appreciate if they would take the appropriate steps in cancelling the
account.

Second when you get SPAM messages, check to see if you have ever posted a
message to any usenet newsgroup. If you can verify that you have not and
think the message may have originated because of your address being in a
SIG or Research Group mailing list, please notify support@jewishgen.org
giving all the particulars.

We hope this helps you to better understand the situation on all levels.
JewishGen is concerned, but as you can see there is little we can do to
prevent your addresses >from being captured by SPAMMERS.

Carol

Carol W. Skydell, Vice President
JewishGen Operations
cskydell@jewishgen.org


Nadler Family #galicia

WestonTurk@...
 

Does anyone have anything on the Nadler's >from WOLBROM.?

westonturk@aol.com

[MODERATOR NOTE: Please inculude your name and where you are >from in your
signature]


Gesher Galicia SIG #Galicia Nadler Family #galicia

WestonTurk@...
 

Does anyone have anything on the Nadler's >from WOLBROM.?

westonturk@aol.com

[MODERATOR NOTE: Please inculude your name and where you are >from in your
signature]


Where is LIPA located in Galicia? #galicia

gussie.steppel <gussie.steppel@...>
 

My name is Gussie Steppel and I have been enthusiastically researching =
my paternal family tree for well over a year now with some successes =
through the ideas, connections, thoughts, facts and figures etc. =
expressed and made through the medium of our discussion group!

On this occasion I need some help in locating the town of LIPA. I am =
told by a distant relative who contacted me through the JewishGen Family =
Finder that his particular STEPPEL branch came >from LIPA and that it =
could once be found in the region of Galicia! Help! Where is it?

Yours sincerely and with thank yous in advance

Gussie Steppel.

Researching & Searching for STEPPEL, BLAU & BLOOM.

gussie.steppel@tinyworld.co.uk


Gesher Galicia SIG #Galicia Where is LIPA located in Galicia? #galicia

gussie.steppel <gussie.steppel@...>
 

My name is Gussie Steppel and I have been enthusiastically researching =
my paternal family tree for well over a year now with some successes =
through the ideas, connections, thoughts, facts and figures etc. =
expressed and made through the medium of our discussion group!

On this occasion I need some help in locating the town of LIPA. I am =
told by a distant relative who contacted me through the JewishGen Family =
Finder that his particular STEPPEL branch came >from LIPA and that it =
could once be found in the region of Galicia! Help! Where is it?

Yours sincerely and with thank yous in advance

Gussie Steppel.

Researching & Searching for STEPPEL, BLAU & BLOOM.

gussie.steppel@tinyworld.co.uk


Statistics on Jews in Eastern Galicia - continued #galicia

Peter Jassem <jassep@...>
 

Dear Friends,

Our discussion started by Alex Sharon's posting of the 1921 and 1931
censuses' results has stretched far beyond the disputed numbers. It's taken
me over a week this time to reply to last Alex's posting, but the complexity
of issues demanded some contemplation on my part and enough time to respond
properly. Some GG-SIGers may think that Alex and I overdo the subject and
if so on my part I declare this to be my last extensive posting of this
discussion.

***

Alex Sharon wrote:
My interoperation of the available statistics is a bit different. If
statistics show that Jewish population of e.g. Lwow Province has been
identified as 7% Jews by the nationality and 11.5% by Mosaic religion, I
begin to wonder. What means not identified term "nationality", since all
Jews were Polish citizens. Were 4.5% of the Jewish population allocated?

Peter Jassem:
Well, it is rather obvious to me. In the pre-war multi-ethnic Poland there
was no strict definition of the term 'nationality' and the census did not
carry a strict definition either. One would refer either to one's ancestry
or sense of belonging to a particular society, nation or state. When asked
to define their nationality and religion Polish Jews would either say Poles
of Mosaic faith or Jews of Mosaic faith. It is likely that a certain number
of Jews, in particular assimilated, reformed, progressive and
Polish-speaking identified themselves as Poles and constituted the disputed
4.5%, while the majority, in particular Yiddish-speaking, orthodox and
Chassidic Jews constituted 7%. We may also expect that the city residents
of Lwow, rather than small shtetl dwellers, were more likely to identify
themselves as Poles of Mosaic faith. All (or most) of them, regardless of
their sense of nationality claimed the Jewish religion thus producing the
11.5%. Odd exceptions, not important in this statistic, would include Jews
who changed religion or embraced Marxism etc. I am a descendant >from the
first group and believe that my grandparents would have written down
"Polish" and "Mosaic" in the respective columns. I hope I am not re-opening
our heated discussion on the identity of Galician Jews. This is only meant
to try to understand the outcome the census.

***

Alex Sharon wrote:
Poland was reestablished in 1918 following Versailles Treaty (Peace
Conference). Of the all beneficiaries of Versailles, Poland was the
greediest and the most bellicious. Poland emerged in 1921, after three years
of fighting, twice as big as had been expected at the Peace Conference.. She
attacked the Ukrainians, getting >from them eastern Gailcia and their capital
Lwow. She fought the Czechs for Teschen (Cieszyn) and failed to get it, one
reason that Poland had no sympathy with Czechs in 1938, though it was in her
long-term interest to side with Czech independence.

Peter Jassem:
First of all the Peace Conference of Nov.11 in Versailles dealt with ending
the war, not borders. The January conference in Paris recognized and invited
Poland to participate in recognition to her efforts to end the war. The
June 28, 1919 treaty did not specify Polish borders. Treaties weren't
always just to Poland, which was later evident in Potsdam and Yalta, but
Versailles did not take position on exact borders in Eastern Europe. And to
give history justice, these were Ukrainians who first attacked predominantly
Polish Lwow and the Red Army that walked first into predominantly Polish
Wilno and declared the Belorussian-Lithuanian Soviet Socialist Republic
there. Was Poland expected to volunteer to shrink its historical borders
and have millions of Polish civilians living east of River Bug deported to
the west, or would the new eastern countries guarantee them minority rights?
Would Soviet Union? I don't think there was anything unusual in Poland's
drive to restore the multi-ethnic Polish Commonwealth in its pre-partition
shape and size. On the other hand I perfectly understand aspirations of
Ukraine (or rather Eastern Galicia) and Lithuania. The chances of them not
being swallowed by Soviet Union were non-existent however, and I believe
that even bigger and stronger multi-ethnic entity in central Europe would
have been better for everybody. And as for the Cieszyn, the 1938 events are
shameful but one must remember that the area was originally (that is shortly
after WWI) to be divided between the ethnic lines (Czech-Polish) but Poland
was busy securing more strategic lands and neglected it. After the WW2
Czechs offered the area to Poland in exchange of the Klodzko area, which was
100% German, and Poland would go for it, but Stalin intervened and the deal
fell apart.

***

Alex Sharon wrote:
Poland waged a full-scale war against Russia and persuaded Western powers to
ratify her new frontiers in 1923. In expanding by force Poland skillfully
played on Britain's fears of Bolshevism and France's desire to have a
powerful ally in the east.

Peter Jassem:
The fear of Bolshevism was real. No doubt Soviet communists intended to
reach Germany, the only country west of Russia with strong communist
movement, over the dead body of Poland. They would have been welcomed warmly
by their counterparts in Germany, would have joined forces and would likely
continue flooding Europe. There is extensive historical evidence of Soviet
plan to expand bolshevism to the entire world, and only with Gorbachov's
perestroika the doctrine was abandoned. Poland did not start the 1920 war,
she tried to suppress the imperial plans of the Bolsheviks and secure its
own sovereignty.

***

Alex Sharon wrote:
At Versailles Poland was obliged to sign a special treaty guaranteeing
rights to her minorities (Jews, Ukrainians, Belorussian, Lithuanian and
Germans). But she did not keep even in the 20ies, still less in 30ies when
her minority's policy deteriorated under the military leadership.

Peter Jassem:
We agree on this one. Poland's ethnic policy was far >from perfect. Not
only bad will of Polish politicians was responsible for it but also
incredibly complex reality. One has to understand that situation of Lwow or
Wilno was as complicated as Jerusalem today and the situation in the eastern
lands (Kresy) was not easier than today's Belfast. Plus the large Jewish
population was spread across the ethnic borders. The second republic lasted
only 20 years. It has not achieved a desirable level of minorities' rights
in this period of time and frankly was no different than most multi-ethnic
countries in Europe of the time.

***

Alex Sharon:
With a third of her population treated as virtual aliens, she maintained an
enormous police force and army. Poland has established its own concentration
camp for the undesirables at Bereza Kartuska.

Poland's police and army were not more 'enormous' than those of many other
European countries were and in particular Germany and Soviet Union. I think
they were proportional to the size of the country and adequate to the
political situation. I agree however that Bereza Kartuska prison, the only
Polish concentration camp ever, was a regrettable example of non-democratic
measure and political oppression against anybody considered a threat to the
young statehood, whether communists or not. As terrible as it was only a
miniature of the Soviet Union's Gulag and a very 'soft' version of what
Germans were soon to establish.

***

Peter Jassem: (on Hebrew usage)
To my statement "It should be also noted that practically nobody spoke
Hebrew" Alex gives a long list of educational facilities and organizations
based on Hebrew language and says that his parents spoke to each other in
this language. I am sure they were able to. I believe Alex. But I still
doubt that many Jews adopted this language in Galicia as their first
language. It was Yiddish, Polish and Ukrainian that were heard on the
streets. It was mostly Yiddish and Polish that Galician Jews expressed
themselves in literature although I know of Jewish authors who also wrote in
Hebrew. The vast majority however was in Yiddish (see YIVO collections).
Perhaps in certain Zionist and religious circles Hebrew education was on the
rise at the time but I have never heard of this ancient language being
spoken in the market place for example. Alex and I were born after the war.
I hope some older GG members could enlighten us based on their direct
personal experience.

***

At the end I would like to conclude that although Alex and I represend very
different views on many issues we share similar values and remain good
friends. In a way by having this argument we are setting a good example of
tolerance, which was in such short demand during those dark times we got to
write about.


Peter Jassem
Toronto, Ontario
Jassep@tdbank.ca


Gesher Galicia SIG #Galicia Statistics on Jews in Eastern Galicia - continued #galicia

Peter Jassem <jassep@...>
 

Dear Friends,

Our discussion started by Alex Sharon's posting of the 1921 and 1931
censuses' results has stretched far beyond the disputed numbers. It's taken
me over a week this time to reply to last Alex's posting, but the complexity
of issues demanded some contemplation on my part and enough time to respond
properly. Some GG-SIGers may think that Alex and I overdo the subject and
if so on my part I declare this to be my last extensive posting of this
discussion.

***

Alex Sharon wrote:
My interoperation of the available statistics is a bit different. If
statistics show that Jewish population of e.g. Lwow Province has been
identified as 7% Jews by the nationality and 11.5% by Mosaic religion, I
begin to wonder. What means not identified term "nationality", since all
Jews were Polish citizens. Were 4.5% of the Jewish population allocated?

Peter Jassem:
Well, it is rather obvious to me. In the pre-war multi-ethnic Poland there
was no strict definition of the term 'nationality' and the census did not
carry a strict definition either. One would refer either to one's ancestry
or sense of belonging to a particular society, nation or state. When asked
to define their nationality and religion Polish Jews would either say Poles
of Mosaic faith or Jews of Mosaic faith. It is likely that a certain number
of Jews, in particular assimilated, reformed, progressive and
Polish-speaking identified themselves as Poles and constituted the disputed
4.5%, while the majority, in particular Yiddish-speaking, orthodox and
Chassidic Jews constituted 7%. We may also expect that the city residents
of Lwow, rather than small shtetl dwellers, were more likely to identify
themselves as Poles of Mosaic faith. All (or most) of them, regardless of
their sense of nationality claimed the Jewish religion thus producing the
11.5%. Odd exceptions, not important in this statistic, would include Jews
who changed religion or embraced Marxism etc. I am a descendant >from the
first group and believe that my grandparents would have written down
"Polish" and "Mosaic" in the respective columns. I hope I am not re-opening
our heated discussion on the identity of Galician Jews. This is only meant
to try to understand the outcome the census.

***

Alex Sharon wrote:
Poland was reestablished in 1918 following Versailles Treaty (Peace
Conference). Of the all beneficiaries of Versailles, Poland was the
greediest and the most bellicious. Poland emerged in 1921, after three years
of fighting, twice as big as had been expected at the Peace Conference.. She
attacked the Ukrainians, getting >from them eastern Gailcia and their capital
Lwow. She fought the Czechs for Teschen (Cieszyn) and failed to get it, one
reason that Poland had no sympathy with Czechs in 1938, though it was in her
long-term interest to side with Czech independence.

Peter Jassem:
First of all the Peace Conference of Nov.11 in Versailles dealt with ending
the war, not borders. The January conference in Paris recognized and invited
Poland to participate in recognition to her efforts to end the war. The
June 28, 1919 treaty did not specify Polish borders. Treaties weren't
always just to Poland, which was later evident in Potsdam and Yalta, but
Versailles did not take position on exact borders in Eastern Europe. And to
give history justice, these were Ukrainians who first attacked predominantly
Polish Lwow and the Red Army that walked first into predominantly Polish
Wilno and declared the Belorussian-Lithuanian Soviet Socialist Republic
there. Was Poland expected to volunteer to shrink its historical borders
and have millions of Polish civilians living east of River Bug deported to
the west, or would the new eastern countries guarantee them minority rights?
Would Soviet Union? I don't think there was anything unusual in Poland's
drive to restore the multi-ethnic Polish Commonwealth in its pre-partition
shape and size. On the other hand I perfectly understand aspirations of
Ukraine (or rather Eastern Galicia) and Lithuania. The chances of them not
being swallowed by Soviet Union were non-existent however, and I believe
that even bigger and stronger multi-ethnic entity in central Europe would
have been better for everybody. And as for the Cieszyn, the 1938 events are
shameful but one must remember that the area was originally (that is shortly
after WWI) to be divided between the ethnic lines (Czech-Polish) but Poland
was busy securing more strategic lands and neglected it. After the WW2
Czechs offered the area to Poland in exchange of the Klodzko area, which was
100% German, and Poland would go for it, but Stalin intervened and the deal
fell apart.

***

Alex Sharon wrote:
Poland waged a full-scale war against Russia and persuaded Western powers to
ratify her new frontiers in 1923. In expanding by force Poland skillfully
played on Britain's fears of Bolshevism and France's desire to have a
powerful ally in the east.

Peter Jassem:
The fear of Bolshevism was real. No doubt Soviet communists intended to
reach Germany, the only country west of Russia with strong communist
movement, over the dead body of Poland. They would have been welcomed warmly
by their counterparts in Germany, would have joined forces and would likely
continue flooding Europe. There is extensive historical evidence of Soviet
plan to expand bolshevism to the entire world, and only with Gorbachov's
perestroika the doctrine was abandoned. Poland did not start the 1920 war,
she tried to suppress the imperial plans of the Bolsheviks and secure its
own sovereignty.

***

Alex Sharon wrote:
At Versailles Poland was obliged to sign a special treaty guaranteeing
rights to her minorities (Jews, Ukrainians, Belorussian, Lithuanian and
Germans). But she did not keep even in the 20ies, still less in 30ies when
her minority's policy deteriorated under the military leadership.

Peter Jassem:
We agree on this one. Poland's ethnic policy was far >from perfect. Not
only bad will of Polish politicians was responsible for it but also
incredibly complex reality. One has to understand that situation of Lwow or
Wilno was as complicated as Jerusalem today and the situation in the eastern
lands (Kresy) was not easier than today's Belfast. Plus the large Jewish
population was spread across the ethnic borders. The second republic lasted
only 20 years. It has not achieved a desirable level of minorities' rights
in this period of time and frankly was no different than most multi-ethnic
countries in Europe of the time.

***

Alex Sharon:
With a third of her population treated as virtual aliens, she maintained an
enormous police force and army. Poland has established its own concentration
camp for the undesirables at Bereza Kartuska.

Poland's police and army were not more 'enormous' than those of many other
European countries were and in particular Germany and Soviet Union. I think
they were proportional to the size of the country and adequate to the
political situation. I agree however that Bereza Kartuska prison, the only
Polish concentration camp ever, was a regrettable example of non-democratic
measure and political oppression against anybody considered a threat to the
young statehood, whether communists or not. As terrible as it was only a
miniature of the Soviet Union's Gulag and a very 'soft' version of what
Germans were soon to establish.

***

Peter Jassem: (on Hebrew usage)
To my statement "It should be also noted that practically nobody spoke
Hebrew" Alex gives a long list of educational facilities and organizations
based on Hebrew language and says that his parents spoke to each other in
this language. I am sure they were able to. I believe Alex. But I still
doubt that many Jews adopted this language in Galicia as their first
language. It was Yiddish, Polish and Ukrainian that were heard on the
streets. It was mostly Yiddish and Polish that Galician Jews expressed
themselves in literature although I know of Jewish authors who also wrote in
Hebrew. The vast majority however was in Yiddish (see YIVO collections).
Perhaps in certain Zionist and religious circles Hebrew education was on the
rise at the time but I have never heard of this ancient language being
spoken in the market place for example. Alex and I were born after the war.
I hope some older GG members could enlighten us based on their direct
personal experience.

***

At the end I would like to conclude that although Alex and I represend very
different views on many issues we share similar values and remain good
friends. In a way by having this argument we are setting a good example of
tolerance, which was in such short demand during those dark times we got to
write about.


Peter Jassem
Toronto, Ontario
Jassep@tdbank.ca


Seeking Metsch in Galicia #galicia

Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz <Shmuel@...>
 

I am seeking information on Shlomo Metsch or Yechiel Metsch in
Galicia.

--
-----------------------------------------------------------
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz, SysProg and JOAT
Atid/2
Team OS/2
Team PL/I
-----------------------------------------------------------
[MODERATOR NOTE:
Galicia was a big place and existed over a long time. It would be helpful
to know what town and what time period you are lookinng for. In the mean
time try looking at the JewishGen Family Finder

http://www.jewishgen.org/jgff/

Search for the name METSCH and do not specify a town or a country, and you
will find several researchers searching the same name]


Gesher Galicia SIG #Galicia Seeking Metsch in Galicia #galicia

Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz <Shmuel@...>
 

I am seeking information on Shlomo Metsch or Yechiel Metsch in
Galicia.

--
-----------------------------------------------------------
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz, SysProg and JOAT
Atid/2
Team OS/2
Team PL/I
-----------------------------------------------------------
[MODERATOR NOTE:
Galicia was a big place and existed over a long time. It would be helpful
to know what town and what time period you are lookinng for. In the mean
time try looking at the JewishGen Family Finder

http://www.jewishgen.org/jgff/

Search for the name METSCH and do not specify a town or a country, and you
will find several researchers searching the same name]