I'm no expert, but I think there are a lot of misconceptions about
what copyright is. I write >from a Brit perspective, but my understanding
is that the principle of copyright is the same worldwide.

There is no copyright in "facts, news, ideas or information. Copyright
exists in the form in which information is expressed and the selection
and arrangement of the material all of which involves skill and labour".
Source: McNae's Essential Law for Journalists by Tom Welsh and Walter
Greenwood published by Butterworths.

Let's say your cousin has taken your information and drawn a magnificent
oak tree complete with golden acorns. In each of the acorns, he or
she has put names and dates you have provided. It is not the names and
dates which are "copyrighted" but the artistic creation -- the way the
information has been presented.

Copyright (literally "right to copy") is about artistic, as well as
monetary, control. It is the copyright holder's perogative to licence
rights for publication. How this is done, with or without payment, is
a separate issue. Copyright can exist without payment for rights ever
being demanded by the copyright holder.

If an author has not created material working as an employee for an
employer, he or she always holds the copyright of his or her original
work unless she or he chooses to relinquish it, just as a photographer
holds the copyright of a photo he or she has taken or a computer
programmer holds the copyright of a computer program.

There is usually no reason why an author should give up his or her
copyright. The licensing of a work should be enough. eg first British
serial rights or first USA serial rights, first French serial rights etc.

One could assign the world rights for an article in perpetuity without
payment while retaining the copyright and artistic control.

This is important to ensure the "integrity" of the material is retained
and it cannot not then be changed in such a way as to perversely distort
the spirit in which it was written -- this is not the same as the material
being edited ("subbed") in order to fit onto a page.

The same principle applies to photography and photographic manipulation.

The internet does allow an unprecedented mixture of non commercial
websites and commercial websites, "volunteers" and salaried employees.

This should not be used, intentionally or unintentionally, to take away
entitlement to the "free" exchange of information or falsely equate
with breach of copyright the unprecedented flow of information between
unprecedented numbers of people allowed by the internet.

I have noticed a sinister trend on the internet in general, a mob
instinct to close down ways of exchanging information always freely
available before mass internet use existed. These types of misinterpretation
are paving the way, by custom not regulation, to unscrupulous annexing of
information whilst removing the freedom of the individual to obtain
and exchange snippets of information for personal, non commercial use.

Alice Josephs
Loughton
Essex
UK

Susan Koslovsky Pearlman <Suprlmn@aol.com> writes:

<< Dear Friends,
Not being an attorney, I need some advice on how copyright laws work.
Recently I posted a comment about a cousin who instructed everyone to
refuse to share genealogical information with me. The reply >from someone I
found on JGFF, and with whom I offered to share information, was positively
vitriolic.Now I learn that he has taken this vendetta [over the spelling of
several names!!!] one step further and has copyrighted his research. The
problem is, that much of his research is based on information that I
personally supplied to him, including branches >from my great-grandparents
down to my own grandchildren. Does this law now say that he "owns" this
information, so that if I should choose to print a family tree for my
children, I would be violating a law? Surely that is not the intent of
copyright laws, to turn genealogists -- amateur or professional -- into
criminals. I'd appreciate hearing >from some of you mavens on the
ramifications for all of us in such an instance. >>

I'm no expert, but I think there are a lot of misconceptions about
what copyright is. I write >from a Brit perspective, but my understanding
is that the principle of copyright is the same worldwide.

There is no copyright in "facts, news, ideas or information. Copyright
exists in the form in which information is expressed and the selection
and arrangement of the material all of which involves skill and labour".
Source: McNae's Essential Law for Journalists by Tom Welsh and Walter
Greenwood published by Butterworths.

Let's say your cousin has taken your information and drawn a magnificent
oak tree complete with golden acorns. In each of the acorns, he or
she has put names and dates you have provided. It is not the names and
dates which are "copyrighted" but the artistic creation -- the way the
information has been presented.

Copyright (literally "right to copy") is about artistic, as well as
monetary, control. It is the copyright holder's perogative to licence
rights for publication. How this is done, with or without payment, is
a separate issue. Copyright can exist without payment for rights ever
being demanded by the copyright holder.

If an author has not created material working as an employee for an
employer, he or she always holds the copyright of his or her original
work unless she or he chooses to relinquish it, just as a photographer
holds the copyright of a photo he or she has taken or a computer
programmer holds the copyright of a computer program.

There is usually no reason why an author should give up his or her
copyright. The licensing of a work should be enough. eg first British
serial rights or first USA serial rights, first French serial rights etc.

One could assign the world rights for an article in perpetuity without
payment while retaining the copyright and artistic control.

This is important to ensure the "integrity" of the material is retained
and it cannot not then be changed in such a way as to perversely distort
the spirit in which it was written -- this is not the same as the material
being edited ("subbed") in order to fit onto a page.

The same principle applies to photography and photographic manipulation.

The internet does allow an unprecedented mixture of non commercial
websites and commercial websites, "volunteers" and salaried employees.

This should not be used, intentionally or unintentionally, to take away
entitlement to the "free" exchange of information or falsely equate
with breach of copyright the unprecedented flow of information between
unprecedented numbers of people allowed by the internet.

I have noticed a sinister trend on the internet in general, a mob
instinct to close down ways of exchanging information always freely
available before mass internet use existed. These types of misinterpretation
are paving the way, by custom not regulation, to unscrupulous annexing of
information whilst removing the freedom of the individual to obtain
and exchange snippets of information for personal, non commercial use.

Alice Josephs
Loughton
Essex
UK

Susan Koslovsky Pearlman <Suprlmn@aol.com> writes:

<< Dear Friends,
Not being an attorney, I need some advice on how copyright laws work.
Recently I posted a comment about a cousin who instructed everyone to
refuse to share genealogical information with me. The reply >from someone I
found on JGFF, and with whom I offered to share information, was positively
vitriolic.Now I learn that he has taken this vendetta [over the spelling of
several names!!!] one step further and has copyrighted his research. The
problem is, that much of his research is based on information that I
personally supplied to him, including branches >from my great-grandparents
down to my own grandchildren. Does this law now say that he "owns" this
information, so that if I should choose to print a family tree for my
children, I would be violating a law? Surely that is not the intent of
copyright laws, to turn genealogists -- amateur or professional -- into
criminals. I'd appreciate hearing >from some of you mavens on the
ramifications for all of us in such an instance. >>

Hi;

I am new to the list. I am trying to trace my grandparents families, both
of them were born in the Ukraine.
My grandmother was born in Mogilev Podolsk,on the banks of the Dneister
River. Her name was Bridger. I suspect that the name might have been
changed or slightly altered, or perhaps spelled slightly differently.She
moved to Montreal in the early twenties.Her father was Nachum Bridger and
he was a land owner prior to the revolution.My great grandmother was named
Dunia Weiner and she had a brother named Ben.Some of the other family
members were named schneider and Flexer, and Coifman. Is anyone else
researching Mogilev? What have you found out?
My grandfather's name was Shaia ( called Yasha) Tschuprik. The family name
was later changed to Shubert.His mother was Leah Fishbein and his father
was Jacob Tschuprik.He was >from a little town called Kataigorod near
Kammenitz. His family built barrels.Half the family moved to Montreal, New
York, and Isreal, the rest disappeared during the war.I understand that
Kataigorod has ceased to exist. Again does anyone have any information that
might be helpful.
Thank you;
Linda Shubert
Victoria, B.C.
Canada

Hi;

I am new to the list. I am trying to trace my grandparents families, both
of them were born in the Ukraine.
My grandmother was born in Mogilev Podolsk,on the banks of the Dneister
River. Her name was Bridger. I suspect that the name might have been
changed or slightly altered, or perhaps spelled slightly differently.She
moved to Montreal in the early twenties.Her father was Nachum Bridger and
he was a land owner prior to the revolution.My great grandmother was named
Dunia Weiner and she had a brother named Ben.Some of the other family
members were named schneider and Flexer, and Coifman. Is anyone else
researching Mogilev? What have you found out?
My grandfather's name was Shaia ( called Yasha) Tschuprik. The family name
was later changed to Shubert.His mother was Leah Fishbein and his father
was Jacob Tschuprik.He was >from a little town called Kataigorod near
Kammenitz. His family built barrels.Half the family moved to Montreal, New
York, and Isreal, the rest disappeared during the war.I understand that
Kataigorod has ceased to exist. Again does anyone have any information that
might be helpful.
Thank you;
Linda Shubert
Victoria, B.C.
Canada

The following was posted in reply to my suggestion that the original
question about the Bevis Mark Records be posted to GerSIG as well as JewishGen...

"A comment on the following:

"What are the Bevis Mark Records for London?

P.S. You should probably post this query to GerSIG also."

Bevis Marks records are the records of the Sephardic Jewish congregation in
London. GerSIG is inappropriate, Jewishgen is not.

Sally Bruckheimer
Buffalo, NY"

I disagree. If one refers back to the original posting regarding the
Bevis Mark Records, it was concerning if there was an equivalent in
Berlin. A question about Berlin is a question about Germany, and ought
to be posted on GerSIG as well as JewishGen. My question was to find
out what the Bevis Mark Records were so I could tell if I had seen an
equivalent.

Questions about Germany are rightly referred to GerSIG.

Vicky Furstenberg Ferraresi
Belmont, CA

MODERATOR NOTE: Anyone with further comments,
please continue this discussion privately.

The following was posted in reply to my suggestion that the original
question about the Bevis Mark Records be posted to GerSIG as well as JewishGen...

"A comment on the following:

"What are the Bevis Mark Records for London?

P.S. You should probably post this query to GerSIG also."

Bevis Marks records are the records of the Sephardic Jewish congregation in
London. GerSIG is inappropriate, Jewishgen is not.

Sally Bruckheimer
Buffalo, NY"

I disagree. If one refers back to the original posting regarding the
Bevis Mark Records, it was concerning if there was an equivalent in
Berlin. A question about Berlin is a question about Germany, and ought
to be posted on GerSIG as well as JewishGen. My question was to find
out what the Bevis Mark Records were so I could tell if I had seen an
equivalent.

Questions about Germany are rightly referred to GerSIG.

Vicky Furstenberg Ferraresi
Belmont, CA

MODERATOR NOTE: Anyone with further comments,
please continue this discussion privately.

Dear Adrienne,

The village you are looking for is Dunkófalva (Obáva),
Bereg County. It was always a Russian village which
contained in the 1830s 149 Greek Orthodox and five
Jewish persons. The place was owned by Count
Schönborn. The village was not too far >from Munkács.
Yes, there were vineyards around the village.

Maybe you want to find a good map of the
Austro-Hungarian Empire on the Internet. The Mormons
may have the birth/death records for the village; at
least >from the 1850s.

I am glad to be of service, good hunting!

P.I.H.

stated he was born in Dunkofalva,
Czechoslovakia, which we know cannot be,---noCzech.
until after WWI.
We believe the LAST place either or both of our
grnparents lived before coming to the
States was Munkacs, Hungary, now Mukachevo, Ukraine.

=====
Dr. Peter I. Hidas
historian

thidas@sympatico.ca
peterhidas@yahoo.com
To read some of my studies you are more than welcome to visit my home page at
www3.sympatico.ca/thidas

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Calendar - Get organized for the holidays!
http://calendar.yahoo.com/

Dear Adrienne,

The village you are looking for is Dunkófalva (Obáva),
Bereg County. It was always a Russian village which
contained in the 1830s 149 Greek Orthodox and five
Jewish persons. The place was owned by Count
Schönborn. The village was not too far >from Munkács.
Yes, there were vineyards around the village.

Maybe you want to find a good map of the
Austro-Hungarian Empire on the Internet. The Mormons
may have the birth/death records for the village; at
least >from the 1850s.

I am glad to be of service, good hunting!

P.I.H.

stated he was born in Dunkofalva,
Czechoslovakia, which we know cannot be,---noCzech.
until after WWI.
We believe the LAST place either or both of our
grnparents lived before coming to the
States was Munkacs, Hungary, now Mukachevo, Ukraine.

=====
Dr. Peter I. Hidas
historian

thidas@sympatico.ca
peterhidas@yahoo.com
To read some of my studies you are more than welcome to visit my home page at
www3.sympatico.ca/thidas

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Calendar - Get organized for the holidays!
http://calendar.yahoo.com/

Can anyone recommend an on-line map of Bereg County as it existed in
approximately 1843? I need a map showing the smallest towns. Thanks for
any assistance.
--Joan Hartman

Can anyone recommend an on-line map of Bereg County as it existed in
approximately 1843? I need a map showing the smallest towns. Thanks for
any assistance.
--Joan Hartman

Hi Peter and other interested parties,

While it may be a major undertaking to translate or even summarize these two
volumes, it
might be feasible to list the names of the county, district, town, number of
Jews, and number of non-Jews residents.
With additional columns or fields one could add alternative
names to the town, that is, the slovak name, ukrainian name, German name and
the name used
by Jews of that time and place. Also, do you know if the numbers indicated
for each city
refer to the number of individuals or to the number of heads of households?

Louis Schonfeld
Cleveland, OH

P.S. to all H-siggers: as you can see below I have edited the original
message prior to sending it
out to the group. Please, wherever feasible, do the same in your responses
to messages. Only leave
enough of the original message to make your response more understanble to
others.


In response to the following message:


The Fenyes book, two volumes, entitled MAGYARORSZAG
GEOGRAPHIAI SZOTARA <snip>. To translate
the work or even to summarize it would be a major
undertaking.

Dr. Peter I. Hidas

Hi Peter and other interested parties,

While it may be a major undertaking to translate or even summarize these two
volumes, it
might be feasible to list the names of the county, district, town, number of
Jews, and number of non-Jews residents.
With additional columns or fields one could add alternative
names to the town, that is, the slovak name, ukrainian name, German name and
the name used
by Jews of that time and place. Also, do you know if the numbers indicated
for each city
refer to the number of individuals or to the number of heads of households?

Louis Schonfeld
Cleveland, OH

P.S. to all H-siggers: as you can see below I have edited the original
message prior to sending it
out to the group. Please, wherever feasible, do the same in your responses
to messages. Only leave
enough of the original message to make your response more understanble to
others.


In response to the following message:


The Fenyes book, two volumes, entitled MAGYARORSZAG
GEOGRAPHIAI SZOTARA <snip>. To translate
the work or even to summarize it would be a major
undertaking.

Dr. Peter I. Hidas

I have heard stories about these classifications too - I would like to know
more about it. The below may not be true.

Basically I have a Jew was not supposed to be outside their assigned Shetl
area
without a pass. One could get a letter or temp pass for a visit or vacation
or wedding
to go to another area.

Permanent passes to live and work outside a Jews assigned Shetl were issued to
artisens and skilled workers. I had relatives who were skilled factory
workers in the late 1800's that lived and moved to a variety of cities for
factory work.

Merchants were also issued a travel pass that allowed travel within the Pale
and even
outside the Pale - perhaps these were 2 different passes.
My great great grandfather was a wheat exporter and sold and shipped wheat
within
the Ukraine and some to Poland that I know of - he traveled regularly to
Kishinev,
Moldavia and Poland.

Steve Rivkin

I have heard stories about these classifications too - I would like to know
more about it. The below may not be true.

Basically I have a Jew was not supposed to be outside their assigned Shetl
area
without a pass. One could get a letter or temp pass for a visit or vacation
or wedding
to go to another area.

Permanent passes to live and work outside a Jews assigned Shetl were issued to
artisens and skilled workers. I had relatives who were skilled factory
workers in the late 1800's that lived and moved to a variety of cities for
factory work.

Merchants were also issued a travel pass that allowed travel within the Pale
and even
outside the Pale - perhaps these were 2 different passes.
My great great grandfather was a wheat exporter and sold and shipped wheat
within
the Ukraine and some to Poland that I know of - he traveled regularly to
Kishinev,
Moldavia and Poland.

Steve Rivkin

I, too, have been searching for family in Yelizevitgrad (Elizabethgrad) --
today known as Kirovohgrad.
MORDUKHOVICH (mother's maiden surname) -- My mother and siblings left for
the USA with my maternal grandmother in 1923. I believe they sailed on the
George Washington, probably >from Brem=E9n. They were originally from
Zlatopoli,but left there during Civil War pogroms, and were probably in
Yelisevitgrad between 1917 and 1923.


MOROZOVSKY -- (father's surname). My parents met and married in
Yelisevitgrad in 1923, the year my mother left for the U.S. He, too, left
in 1923 but could get only as far as Bremenhave, and lived in Germany
illegally until about 1926-28 when he was finally placed on the immigrant
quota list.

Is any of this familiar? If so, I have more information re names,
background, et al.

Helene Morrow
Pittsburgh

I, too, have been searching for family in Yelizevitgrad (Elizabethgrad) --
today known as Kirovohgrad.
MORDUKHOVICH (mother's maiden surname) -- My mother and siblings left for
the USA with my maternal grandmother in 1923. I believe they sailed on the
George Washington, probably >from Brem=E9n. They were originally from
Zlatopoli,but left there during Civil War pogroms, and were probably in
Yelisevitgrad between 1917 and 1923.


MOROZOVSKY -- (father's surname). My parents met and married in
Yelisevitgrad in 1923, the year my mother left for the U.S. He, too, left
in 1923 but could get only as far as Bremenhave, and lived in Germany
illegally until about 1926-28 when he was finally placed on the immigrant
quota list.

Is any of this familiar? If so, I have more information re names,
background, et al.

Helene Morrow
Pittsburgh

Message text written by "Ukraine SIG"

I would have thought "meshchanIN" comes >from the Russian word =

"MESto", meaning place or locality.<

This is correct. The word is usually translated as 'petty bourgeois',
or perhaps 'local merchant'. It often has a connotation of someone
with some money but little culture. =


Does anyone know the origin of this sort of classification of Russian
society? =

Moderator Note: Please remember to sign your postings as required on JewishGen

Message text written by "Ukraine SIG"

I would have thought "meshchanIN" comes >from the Russian word =

"MESto", meaning place or locality.<

This is correct. The word is usually translated as 'petty bourgeois',
or perhaps 'local merchant'. It often has a connotation of someone
with some money but little culture. =


Does anyone know the origin of this sort of classification of Russian
society? =

Moderator Note: Please remember to sign your postings as required on JewishGen

In a recent message, the questions posed,

"Now, if I can only find out where Spikov is and how to access military
records... "

I can't help with military records, but Spikov is in Ukraine, about 143.5 miles
SW of Kiev. The coordinates are 48.47N 28.34E.

You can easily obtain such information by going to the Jewishgen homepage
and clicking on the link to Shetl Seeker Town Search.

Ben Okner

Address omitted by Moderator on Duty

In a recent message, the questions posed,

"Now, if I can only find out where Spikov is and how to access military
records... "

I can't help with military records, but Spikov is in Ukraine, about 143.5 miles
SW of Kiev. The coordinates are 48.47N 28.34E.

You can easily obtain such information by going to the Jewishgen homepage
and clicking on the link to Shetl Seeker Town Search.

Ben Okner

Address omitted by Moderator on Duty