Date   

Finland emigration? #general

Seesiegel <seesiegel@...>
 

Thankyou to the person who listed the Finland web site and ship listing. I
found a name just like my grandfather's (Leib Rottenberg) on the list.
But, since I had "heard" he came >from Odessa, Russia, I am curious if this
could even be him and if so, why would he have left via Finland in perhaps
1905? Was there a route of immigration north >from Odessa up to finland?
Did Finland assist Russian men escaping the army? The only reason I
entertain the idea at all is because apparently he is listed as leaving
from England on the same passenger info for Finland And ---one brother, it
is told, remained in Scotland for a while and developed a bit of an accent
and the ship "Urania" did stop in Scotland.
So.....what's the story---why would a russian jew leave through Finland?
you may email privately, but I think this is good info to share.
carolyn r. siegel
seesiegel@aol.com


JewishGen Discussion Group #JewishGen Finland emigration? #general

Seesiegel <seesiegel@...>
 

Thankyou to the person who listed the Finland web site and ship listing. I
found a name just like my grandfather's (Leib Rottenberg) on the list.
But, since I had "heard" he came >from Odessa, Russia, I am curious if this
could even be him and if so, why would he have left via Finland in perhaps
1905? Was there a route of immigration north >from Odessa up to finland?
Did Finland assist Russian men escaping the army? The only reason I
entertain the idea at all is because apparently he is listed as leaving
from England on the same passenger info for Finland And ---one brother, it
is told, remained in Scotland for a while and developed a bit of an accent
and the ship "Urania" did stop in Scotland.
So.....what's the story---why would a russian jew leave through Finland?
you may email privately, but I think this is good info to share.
carolyn r. siegel
seesiegel@aol.com


Re: Prince #general

Sally Bruckheimer <sallybru@...>
 

Stephen Shamroth wrote:
In researching my maternal line I have been examining the LDS records from
Jaroslaw for the surname Prince. Although the records are in Cyrillic,it
is clear that nothing resembling "Prince" can be found. Would Prince be an
Anglicized version of a Polish Name? Any help would be appreciated.


If you can read the Cyrillic letters (P is the Greek letter pi >from
geometry, R looks like P because it is rho in Greek, etc.) and have
checked lots of variant spellings (my Mother knew a man named Prinz which
would be more like the correct spelling-maybe even Princ in Polish), then
try Nasi-which is Hebrew similar in meaning to Prince.

Are the records available >from a time period when you are pretty sure
your family was there? Lots of people moved around, voluntarily or not.

Of course, the name could have been shortened and changed >from something
else, or they could have been >from somewhere near Jaroslaw, or both.
Have you tried JRI-PP and the Family Finder?

Keep trying, widen the search any way you can. Check more sources here
in the US to find if there might be a different town mentioned. I was
told my grandfather was >from Berdichev, recently I found out his brother
was supposed to have been born in Odessa which is no where near
Berdichev-I don't know which, if either, is a better place to look.

Never give up,

Sally Bruckheimer
Buffalo, NY


JewishGen Discussion Group #JewishGen Re: Prince #general

Sally Bruckheimer <sallybru@...>
 

Stephen Shamroth wrote:
In researching my maternal line I have been examining the LDS records from
Jaroslaw for the surname Prince. Although the records are in Cyrillic,it
is clear that nothing resembling "Prince" can be found. Would Prince be an
Anglicized version of a Polish Name? Any help would be appreciated.


If you can read the Cyrillic letters (P is the Greek letter pi >from
geometry, R looks like P because it is rho in Greek, etc.) and have
checked lots of variant spellings (my Mother knew a man named Prinz which
would be more like the correct spelling-maybe even Princ in Polish), then
try Nasi-which is Hebrew similar in meaning to Prince.

Are the records available >from a time period when you are pretty sure
your family was there? Lots of people moved around, voluntarily or not.

Of course, the name could have been shortened and changed >from something
else, or they could have been >from somewhere near Jaroslaw, or both.
Have you tried JRI-PP and the Family Finder?

Keep trying, widen the search any way you can. Check more sources here
in the US to find if there might be a different town mentioned. I was
told my grandfather was >from Berdichev, recently I found out his brother
was supposed to have been born in Odessa which is no where near
Berdichev-I don't know which, if either, is a better place to look.

Never give up,

Sally Bruckheimer
Buffalo, NY


why jewish genealogy? #general

Gene and Ellen Sucov <genellen@...>
 

Dear David, You raise some provocative questions. I suggest that each of
us will have somewhat different reasons for engaging in this search for our
"roots". For me, the search emerged out of my own need to connect myself
to a real, personal family history. This need emerged after I had finished
focusing on career and family, that is, when I was close to retirement. I'm
sure it was connected with my own desire that I be remembered after I was
gone. So, recovering the chain to my ggparents, formerly lost in their
villages in the Russian pale, and reading and translating the Yizkor Books
from their villages, gave me a personal history which I have shared with my
sibs and cousins and their kids.
Underneath the need for a personal history is the need to be connected
to a larger community history. Now that I have read the accounts of the
murder of their neighbors (and very likely of themselves) by the Nazis and
their accomplices, my relation to the Shoah has changed >from generalized
outrage to personal outrage. In this way I have become more connected to
my personal, and consequently, my collective Jewish history. That may
partially explain why we are now living in Israel.
Collective memory is what keep all groups, and especially, Jews
together. For Jews, it used to be religion and its emphasis on collective
memory which bound us together. Today, for most of us that bond is quite
weak. Without it, we are atomized, alone, lonely. The nature of society in
today's Western world encourages this atomicity and aloneness.
Jewishgenners are reacting against that sense of isolation and creating
their own family communities.
David, thank you for haivng posed the question.
Gene Sucov
----- Original Message -----
From: David Frey <dfrey@bigpond.net.au>
To: JewishGen Discussion Group <jewishgen@lyris.jewishgen.org>
Sent: Tuesday, December 05, 2000 9:54 AM
Subject: Some thoughts


JewishGen Discussion Group #JewishGen why jewish genealogy? #general

Gene and Ellen Sucov <genellen@...>
 

Dear David, You raise some provocative questions. I suggest that each of
us will have somewhat different reasons for engaging in this search for our
"roots". For me, the search emerged out of my own need to connect myself
to a real, personal family history. This need emerged after I had finished
focusing on career and family, that is, when I was close to retirement. I'm
sure it was connected with my own desire that I be remembered after I was
gone. So, recovering the chain to my ggparents, formerly lost in their
villages in the Russian pale, and reading and translating the Yizkor Books
from their villages, gave me a personal history which I have shared with my
sibs and cousins and their kids.
Underneath the need for a personal history is the need to be connected
to a larger community history. Now that I have read the accounts of the
murder of their neighbors (and very likely of themselves) by the Nazis and
their accomplices, my relation to the Shoah has changed >from generalized
outrage to personal outrage. In this way I have become more connected to
my personal, and consequently, my collective Jewish history. That may
partially explain why we are now living in Israel.
Collective memory is what keep all groups, and especially, Jews
together. For Jews, it used to be religion and its emphasis on collective
memory which bound us together. Today, for most of us that bond is quite
weak. Without it, we are atomized, alone, lonely. The nature of society in
today's Western world encourages this atomicity and aloneness.
Jewishgenners are reacting against that sense of isolation and creating
their own family communities.
David, thank you for haivng posed the question.
Gene Sucov
----- Original Message -----
From: David Frey <dfrey@bigpond.net.au>
To: JewishGen Discussion Group <jewishgen@lyris.jewishgen.org>
Sent: Tuesday, December 05, 2000 9:54 AM
Subject: Some thoughts


Re: some thoughts #general

Sally Bruckheimer <sallybru@...>
 

David Frey wrote:
"I'm trying to understand the reason for the pursuit we are all engaged
in many with a great deal of fervor"


Personally, I am not trying to change anything-obviously we cannot
change the past. Not much will change in the present (aside >from some
email).

What genealogy gives me, and what I would like more of, is an
understanding of what the world was like, specifically for my ancestors.
I always hated history because it was taught: who were the 2
candidates for the election of 1848 and what were the 3 main issues
(like I really care). I never had any feeling for what life was like or
what reality was like or that it 'meant' anything to me.

When I first started working, I wanted to get my Grandmother's death
certificate. I knew she died in 1939, and I thought that I needed to
know what day; so I looked through the newspapers on microfilm. I was
stunned. Hitler invaded here, Hitler invaded there! Of course, I knew
that >from history class, and >from being told as a child; I know many of
our Jewishgen families were there in Europe, and suffered terribly.
But it meant something different to me because my family was doing
things at the time-some that I have found were in Europe then.

I have found out that my 8th great grandfather was a Dominican,
confessor to the Infanta Maria who was later Empress of Austria. The
same Empress of Austria who may have thrown the other side of my family
out of Vienna. I can even figure out that what went on in Spain
affected something in Austria.

To say nothing of maps: the Bruckheimers were >from a unique place which
was not Baden, but it is today. They lived in an area ruled by the
Elector of the Main-all that Holy Roman Empire stuff suddenly has
something to do with my family. It was not Germany until 1871.

I hope that I am expressing the changes I have felt in myself and how I
see the events of the past-I was really amazed at the beginning.

Sally Bruckheimer
Buffalo, NY


JewishGen Discussion Group #JewishGen Re: some thoughts #general

Sally Bruckheimer <sallybru@...>
 

David Frey wrote:
"I'm trying to understand the reason for the pursuit we are all engaged
in many with a great deal of fervor"


Personally, I am not trying to change anything-obviously we cannot
change the past. Not much will change in the present (aside >from some
email).

What genealogy gives me, and what I would like more of, is an
understanding of what the world was like, specifically for my ancestors.
I always hated history because it was taught: who were the 2
candidates for the election of 1848 and what were the 3 main issues
(like I really care). I never had any feeling for what life was like or
what reality was like or that it 'meant' anything to me.

When I first started working, I wanted to get my Grandmother's death
certificate. I knew she died in 1939, and I thought that I needed to
know what day; so I looked through the newspapers on microfilm. I was
stunned. Hitler invaded here, Hitler invaded there! Of course, I knew
that >from history class, and >from being told as a child; I know many of
our Jewishgen families were there in Europe, and suffered terribly.
But it meant something different to me because my family was doing
things at the time-some that I have found were in Europe then.

I have found out that my 8th great grandfather was a Dominican,
confessor to the Infanta Maria who was later Empress of Austria. The
same Empress of Austria who may have thrown the other side of my family
out of Vienna. I can even figure out that what went on in Spain
affected something in Austria.

To say nothing of maps: the Bruckheimers were >from a unique place which
was not Baden, but it is today. They lived in an area ruled by the
Elector of the Main-all that Holy Roman Empire stuff suddenly has
something to do with my family. It was not Germany until 1871.

I hope that I am expressing the changes I have felt in myself and how I
see the events of the past-I was really amazed at the beginning.

Sally Bruckheimer
Buffalo, NY


Re: "pieplate" style photographs #general

Sally Bruckheimer <sallybru@...>
 

Although I have never heard them called that, I have Two prints on tin
of my mother as a baby (b. 1906) and her mother-so turn of the 20th
century.

They are not like the tintypes that I have seen but seem to be much
better quality pictures printed on a convex tin about 4 inches across.
The back is closed but hollow. I have one which is varnished or
shellacked or something and one which is matte finish.

Sally Bruckheimer
Buffalo, NY


JewishGen Discussion Group #JewishGen Re: "pieplate" style photographs #general

Sally Bruckheimer <sallybru@...>
 

Although I have never heard them called that, I have Two prints on tin
of my mother as a baby (b. 1906) and her mother-so turn of the 20th
century.

They are not like the tintypes that I have seen but seem to be much
better quality pictures printed on a convex tin about 4 inches across.
The back is closed but hollow. I have one which is varnished or
shellacked or something and one which is matte finish.

Sally Bruckheimer
Buffalo, NY


Re: Death Certificate not Found #general

Sally Bruckheimer <sallybru@...>
 

Gloria Bailey wrote:

I notice that NY death certificates through 1965 are available through
the LDS. Perhaps soon they will have them through 1968. It would seem
worthwhile to check the files for yourself rather than rely on someone
who doesn't have a personal interest in it.

While the Index to New York City deaths is available at the Mormon FHL,
the certificates themselves are not-with a few small exceptions. Once
you have the information >from the index (year is enough if you don't
have a common name) you have to write to the NY City Archives. New York
State vital records are available in the county or town where they
occurred, in filmed indexes at the LDS church, and in Albany. Note: NY
City records are not in Albany.

Sally Bruckheimer
Buffalo, NY


JewishGen Discussion Group #JewishGen Re: Death Certificate not Found #general

Sally Bruckheimer <sallybru@...>
 

Gloria Bailey wrote:

I notice that NY death certificates through 1965 are available through
the LDS. Perhaps soon they will have them through 1968. It would seem
worthwhile to check the files for yourself rather than rely on someone
who doesn't have a personal interest in it.

While the Index to New York City deaths is available at the Mormon FHL,
the certificates themselves are not-with a few small exceptions. Once
you have the information >from the index (year is enough if you don't
have a common name) you have to write to the NY City Archives. New York
State vital records are available in the county or town where they
occurred, in filmed indexes at the LDS church, and in Albany. Note: NY
City records are not in Albany.

Sally Bruckheimer
Buffalo, NY


to the group...... Re " Getting Certified as a Genealogist" #general

Dee Lieberman <ddlieberman@...>
 

Hi:

Can someone explain how one becomes a "Certified as a Genealogist"
or Historical Researcher? is there some test to pass??

Do you have to belong to a Major Group, Give your time?

Can some one help me with this, my wife thinks I should get a degree in it?

Does it cost money?

thank you

Brett Lieberman
Maple Ridge BC Canada
blieberman1@home.com

MODERATOR NOTE: Some information on this subject can be found at:
<http://www.jewishgen.org/infofiles/profgen.txt>


JewishGen Discussion Group #JewishGen to the group...... Re " Getting Certified as a Genealogist" #general

Dee Lieberman <ddlieberman@...>
 

Hi:

Can someone explain how one becomes a "Certified as a Genealogist"
or Historical Researcher? is there some test to pass??

Do you have to belong to a Major Group, Give your time?

Can some one help me with this, my wife thinks I should get a degree in it?

Does it cost money?

thank you

Brett Lieberman
Maple Ridge BC Canada
blieberman1@home.com

MODERATOR NOTE: Some information on this subject can be found at:
<http://www.jewishgen.org/infofiles/profgen.txt>


Re: Lieven #latvia

Leonard Kessler <lkes50@...>
 

Hello Dr. Salit. The following is all the information I have on my
relatives...the Lieven family: Levin Lieven, b. ? was the father of
Hirsh Lieven, b. ca. 1768 in Schlock, d. ca. 1835...married 2nd wife Sara
(nee Levy) & they had a son Marcus Lieven, b. ca. 1810, d. 2-12-1878 in
Riga. They also had daughter Rahel Lieven, b. 1802, son Hosias Lieven, b.
1808, d. 1836, daughter Minna Lieven, b. 1815 and daughter Jette Lieven, b.
1818. With his first wife...name unknown...Hirsh had a son Jacob Lieven, b.
1797, d. 1844 who married Helena (nee Mendelson) b, 1811 and they had
children. Marcus Lieven married Mariane (Mirjam) (nee Danziger) who was born
1821 and died 2-26-1870 in Riga. Marcus & Mariane had 3 children ...Sara
Lieven, b. 12-23-1851, m. 1869...Lieb Lieven, b. 4-23-1853 who married Lina
Shifra (nee Hirshfeldt), b. 11-15-1851 and they had children... and Israel
Lieven, b. 4-7-1857, m. 3-3-1885 and d. 9-10-1893 all in Riga. Israel Lieven
married Hana Esther (nee Feldmann), b. ca. 1858. Israel and Hana had 7
children....Aron Mordchel (Ore Marcus), Mera (Marjane), Leya, Josel Nisen
(Josiph), Haya, Sheina Menucha and Sara. Mera was my maternal grandmother.

Leonard Kessler, Arad, Israel

Original message:

From: "Salit, Dr. Irving" <Irving.salit@uhn.on.ca>
Subject: [latvia] RE: Lieven

I sent you some more information on the family. If you replied, please send
again to this address since my other e-mail died.

Irving E. Salit
Division of Infectious Diseases
Director, Immunodeficiency Clinic
Toronto General Hospital
Eaton G-216
416-340-3697


Latvia SIG #Latvia RE: Lieven #latvia

Leonard Kessler <lkes50@...>
 

Hello Dr. Salit. The following is all the information I have on my
relatives...the Lieven family: Levin Lieven, b. ? was the father of
Hirsh Lieven, b. ca. 1768 in Schlock, d. ca. 1835...married 2nd wife Sara
(nee Levy) & they had a son Marcus Lieven, b. ca. 1810, d. 2-12-1878 in
Riga. They also had daughter Rahel Lieven, b. 1802, son Hosias Lieven, b.
1808, d. 1836, daughter Minna Lieven, b. 1815 and daughter Jette Lieven, b.
1818. With his first wife...name unknown...Hirsh had a son Jacob Lieven, b.
1797, d. 1844 who married Helena (nee Mendelson) b, 1811 and they had
children. Marcus Lieven married Mariane (Mirjam) (nee Danziger) who was born
1821 and died 2-26-1870 in Riga. Marcus & Mariane had 3 children ...Sara
Lieven, b. 12-23-1851, m. 1869...Lieb Lieven, b. 4-23-1853 who married Lina
Shifra (nee Hirshfeldt), b. 11-15-1851 and they had children... and Israel
Lieven, b. 4-7-1857, m. 3-3-1885 and d. 9-10-1893 all in Riga. Israel Lieven
married Hana Esther (nee Feldmann), b. ca. 1858. Israel and Hana had 7
children....Aron Mordchel (Ore Marcus), Mera (Marjane), Leya, Josel Nisen
(Josiph), Haya, Sheina Menucha and Sara. Mera was my maternal grandmother.

Leonard Kessler, Arad, Israel

Original message:

From: "Salit, Dr. Irving" <Irving.salit@uhn.on.ca>
Subject: [latvia] RE: Lieven

I sent you some more information on the family. If you replied, please send
again to this address since my other e-mail died.

Irving E. Salit
Division of Infectious Diseases
Director, Immunodeficiency Clinic
Toronto General Hospital
Eaton G-216
416-340-3697


Re: Woman's name after a divorce #belarus

Joyce Weaver <joyweave@...>
 

I, too, think this is a great question. And I have another
twist on it. I found two women on a passenger list who I think
are my great-grandmother and great-aunt. Both are listed as
BLUMBERG. However, my reat-grandmother had been widowed and
remarried and widowed (I think-- but maybe divorced) again
before coming to the US. The family line is, "she buried
three husbands in Europe and married another one here."
The BLUMBERG children were >from either the first or second
marriage, definitely not the third.

Joy

-------
Carol Rombro Rider wrote:

What an interesting question! I don't recall seeing this addressed
before.
I have a passport of a relative >from Russia (Vilna Gubernia) who in
1893 came into the US. There are two names on the passport--hers and
her daughter.
...snip...
-----------------


Belarus SIG #Belarus Re: Woman's name after a divorce #belarus

Joyce Weaver <joyweave@...>
 

I, too, think this is a great question. And I have another
twist on it. I found two women on a passenger list who I think
are my great-grandmother and great-aunt. Both are listed as
BLUMBERG. However, my reat-grandmother had been widowed and
remarried and widowed (I think-- but maybe divorced) again
before coming to the US. The family line is, "she buried
three husbands in Europe and married another one here."
The BLUMBERG children were >from either the first or second
marriage, definitely not the third.

Joy

-------
Carol Rombro Rider wrote:

What an interesting question! I don't recall seeing this addressed
before.
I have a passport of a relative >from Russia (Vilna Gubernia) who in
1893 came into the US. There are two names on the passport--hers and
her daughter.
...snip...
-----------------


Indexing Belarus records #belarus

Susan Goldsmith
 

I would like to contribute to an indexing of Belarus records with the
associated ability to order records as has been done by JRI Poland.

I ordered three Minsk Gubernia films at the local FHL, based on Vitaly
Charny's kind efforts to identify the appearance, and frequency of
appearance of surnames in those records. Even with Russian translating
aids, I found it too daunting to try to even identify pages on which my
names appeared. We need more than an indication of whether names appear in
a record; we need an index of what the record states in summary form,
including the record's mention of other names, eg., witnesses.

How soon could we start such a project, what would it cost and is our SIG
interested in collecting names of SIG members and contributions for JRI
Belarus now? A great deal of enthusiasm is being expressed.

I think it is important that contributors' requests that the names they
are searching be indexed initially be honored. Vitaly's work in identifying
appearance of names makes this possible. Gradually, more and more names
will be able to be indexed.

Searching for HOROWICZ AND ALL VARIATIONS, DROZNAN, LEISERSON
Dolginovo, Minsk, Vileika area; TOBIAS, TOIBIS,TOYBES AND ALL VARIATIONS,
ROZHANSKY Novyy Sverzhen, Stolbtsy, Mir

Susan Goldsmith
PiedmontCA
jcwsmg@sprintmail.com


Belarus SIG #Belarus Indexing Belarus records #belarus

Susan Goldsmith
 

I would like to contribute to an indexing of Belarus records with the
associated ability to order records as has been done by JRI Poland.

I ordered three Minsk Gubernia films at the local FHL, based on Vitaly
Charny's kind efforts to identify the appearance, and frequency of
appearance of surnames in those records. Even with Russian translating
aids, I found it too daunting to try to even identify pages on which my
names appeared. We need more than an indication of whether names appear in
a record; we need an index of what the record states in summary form,
including the record's mention of other names, eg., witnesses.

How soon could we start such a project, what would it cost and is our SIG
interested in collecting names of SIG members and contributions for JRI
Belarus now? A great deal of enthusiasm is being expressed.

I think it is important that contributors' requests that the names they
are searching be indexed initially be honored. Vitaly's work in identifying
appearance of names makes this possible. Gradually, more and more names
will be able to be indexed.

Searching for HOROWICZ AND ALL VARIATIONS, DROZNAN, LEISERSON
Dolginovo, Minsk, Vileika area; TOBIAS, TOIBIS,TOYBES AND ALL VARIATIONS,
ROZHANSKY Novyy Sverzhen, Stolbtsy, Mir

Susan Goldsmith
PiedmontCA
jcwsmg@sprintmail.com